12 votes

What about AZERTY users?

I'm from Belgium. Belgium is one of the two countries in the world, along with France, that uses AZERTY. The big problem with an AZERTY keyboard is that there is no tilde key. So, in orde to use the key or tag a sub (ex. ~fantasy, like you'd do /r/fantasy), AZERTY users have to manually copy the tilde every single time they want to use it. Usually this isn't that big of a problem, but when the tilde is such a key feature on a website, I think it does become a bit of a problem.

For reference, France has a population of 67M, while Belgium has around 11M.

27 comments

  1. [20]
    cfabbro
    (edited )
    Link
    We were considering adding a “macro” type drop down to the comment box (similar to reddit enhancement suite, if you’re familiar with that) that would include ~ and a bunch of the other more...

    We were considering adding a “macro” type drop down to the comment box (similar to reddit enhancement suite, if you’re familiar with that) that would include ~ and a bunch of the other more commonly used markdown characters and templates as well (e.g. [], (), '', etc). We were primarily concerned with them being hard to use on mobile keyboards but with your pointing out the difficulty on AZERTY as well, we should definitely consider adding them to even desktop, IMO.

    Thanks for the feedback and I will bump this up the chain and add the issue to gitlab when I get the chance.

    9 votes
    1. [18]
      Deimos
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      One other thing we had talked about was the possibility of an "alternate" character that's easier to type (both for keyboard layouts like AZERTY as well as mobile users) that could just be...

      One other thing we had talked about was the possibility of an "alternate" character that's easier to type (both for keyboard layouts like AZERTY as well as mobile users) that could just be converted to a tilde when the person is obviously using it with a group name.

      So for example, maybe if someone types &fantasy we just convert it to ~fantasy. I'm not sure what the best character for this would be, but this might be another potential option for helping with this.

      4 votes
      1. [11]
        cfabbro
        Link Parent
        Combination of characters maybe, like /t/ (to differentiate from /r/) or something similar maybe?

        Combination of characters maybe, like /t/ (to differentiate from /r/) or something similar maybe?

        4 votes
        1. [10]
          Emerald_Knight
          Link Parent
          I think the /t/ idea could be a good way to handle this. It's familiar and isn't likely to be used in another context where nothing precedes it.

          I think the /t/ idea could be a good way to handle this. It's familiar and isn't likely to be used in another context where nothing precedes it.

          2 votes
          1. [3]
            Deimos
            Link Parent
            Typing /t/ isn't exactly convenient on mobile either though, which hurts one of the main intentions for having an alternate format like this.

            Typing /t/ isn't exactly convenient on mobile either though, which hurts one of the main intentions for having an alternate format like this.

            3 votes
            1. cfabbro
              Link Parent
              True... maybe I am just so used to typing /r/ so much, even on mobile, that it doesn't bother me... but I can see how it could be a PITA.

              True... maybe I am just so used to typing /r/ so much, even on mobile, that it doesn't bother me... but I can see how it could be a PITA.

              2 votes
            2. Emerald_Knight
              Link Parent
              That's fair. Perhaps a Perl/PHP -like syntax using $? I'm sure there's some reasonable alternative available.

              That's fair. Perhaps a Perl/PHP -like syntax using $? I'm sure there's some reasonable alternative available.

              2 votes
          2. [5]
            cfabbro
            Link Parent
            Yeah and we could even potentially use that for the alternative namespace idea as well... e.g. ~games.leagueoflegends = ~LOL and/or /t/LOL

            Yeah and we could even potentially use that for the alternative namespace idea as well... e.g. ~games.leagueoflegends = ~LOL and/or /t/LOL

            1 vote
            1. [4]
              Emerald_Knight
              Link Parent
              I don't know how everything would be structured under the hood, but I imagine it would be trivial to perform the replacement on the fly, where all /t/LOL get converted to ~LOL, and then all ~LOL...

              I don't know how everything would be structured under the hood, but I imagine it would be trivial to perform the replacement on the fly, where all /t/LOL get converted to ~LOL, and then all ~LOL are appropriately rendered to resolve to ~games.leagueoflegends. Just adds a second stage, really.

              1 vote
              1. [3]
                cfabbro
                Link Parent
                My issue with the alternative namespace idea is that ~games.leagueoflegends = ~LOL could be confusing to new users whereas with ~games.leagueoflegends = /t/LOL (but forwarding...

                My issue with the alternative namespace idea is that ~games.leagueoflegends = ~LOL could be confusing to new users whereas with ~games.leagueoflegends = /t/LOL (but forwarding ~games.leagueoflegends still) there would at least be a clear distinction, which is why I suggested 'or'. Alternative namespace is something we have talked about but not really formalized our thinking about yet, since it's potentially a ways away before we have to consider it, so I am just spitballing in general here. :P

                2 votes
                1. tvfj
                  Link Parent
                  & feels like it makes sense for a 'collapsed' link. Could work for both issues: &LOL stays as it is but works as a shorthand link, &games.leageoflegends or just &games gets switched over...

                  & feels like it makes sense for a 'collapsed' link.

                  Could work for both issues: &LOL stays as it is but works as a shorthand link, &games.leageoflegends or just &games gets switched over automatically.

                  2 votes
                2. Emerald_Knight
                  Link Parent
                  Gotcha, I guess I misunderstood the intent there :)

                  Gotcha, I guess I misunderstood the intent there :)

                  1 vote
      2. [6]
        burntcookie90
        Link Parent
        # like IRC channels? But that's an h1 in markdown 🤔

        # like IRC channels?

        But that's an h1 in markdown 🤔

        1 vote
        1. [5]
          Deimos
          Link Parent
          Probably not # - even outside the header usage you'd also end up with an accidental group link whenever someone's actually talking about an IRC channel or a twitter hashtag.

          Probably not # - even outside the header usage you'd also end up with an accidental group link whenever someone's actually talking about an IRC channel or a twitter hashtag.

          3 votes
          1. tvfj
            Link Parent
            The header usage isn't a problem, since the actual syntax is # header with a space. #This won't work, so long as md is implemented to the commonmark standard. If the hashtag character isn't...

            The header usage isn't a problem, since the actual syntax is # header with a space.

            #This won't work, so long as md is implemented to the commonmark standard.

            If the hashtag character isn't replaced, and if it only linkifies when the group exists, I think we could turn it lining up with twitter hashtags (and IRC channels) into a strength. It shows that there is an equivalent discussion here. The context will already make it clear if they're talking about a twitter hashtag, and as with any formatting it could be escapable.

            This can also be combined with the need for short-hand links, so #firefox could stay and direct to ~comp.foss.firefox or whatever, and #games could simply be replaced with ~games.

            That said, this doesn't improve the branding that ~tildes provides. & used in this way, as a shortcut as well as an alternate character, makes logical sense and would further the brand a bit, I think. I'm picturing:

            This was already posted to ~comp, but I think &privacy would appreciate it.

            Also: @username and /u/username already cause this mixup ;)

            3 votes
          2. [3]
            burntcookie90
            Link Parent
            That's fair. I had this idea once that #[ would initiate a type ahead search for users/channels (or groups in this case) and ] would auto link that with markdown.

            That's fair. I had this idea once that #[ would initiate a type ahead search for users/channels (or groups in this case) and ] would auto link that with markdown.

            1 vote
            1. [2]
              cfabbro
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Using hashtags for anything on a site is also problematic because they are a reserved character in the URI (URL) spec, being used for HTML anchors. So anything you want to refer to with them...

              Using hashtags for anything on a site is also problematic because they are a reserved character in the URI (URL) spec, being used for HTML anchors. So anything you want to refer to with them cannot also have their own separate permalink, E.g. #tagname can't be tildes.net/#tagname since browsers will assume you're looking for a #tagname anchor on the tildes.net/index.html.

              You can use % encoding to get around that so tildes.net/%23tagname would work (since %23 = % encoded #) but that is super ugly and why we went with ~ in the first place as the group delimiter... since it's one of the few non-reserved URI characters. :P

              2 votes
    2. Velzerat
      Link Parent
      Thanks for the quick reply! I'm familiar with RES and agree that a RES-like dropdown box would be a perfect solution.

      Thanks for the quick reply! I'm familiar with RES and agree that a RES-like dropdown box would be a perfect solution.

      2 votes
  2. BossHogg2020
    Link
    There IS a tilde on French AZERTY keyboards. It is located on « é 2 » key and accessible with AltGr, and I can guarantee it has been there for at least 30 years. You are alone on that one,...

    There IS a tilde on French AZERTY keyboards. It is located on « é 2 » key and accessible with AltGr, and I can guarantee it has been there for at least 30 years.

    You are alone on that one, Belgium! :-D

    6 votes
  3. [5]
    chewbacca
    Link
    From scrolling through Wikipedia, it looks like you can type tilde by pressing [Alt Gr] + [=]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY#Tilde

    From scrolling through Wikipedia, it looks like you can type tilde by pressing [Alt Gr] + [=]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AZERTY#Tilde

    3 votes
    1. [3]
      Velzerat
      Link Parent
      I saw that too but it's not working for me. I'm not entirely sure why.

      I saw that too but it's not working for me. I'm not entirely sure why.

      2 votes
      1. Emerald_Knight
        Link Parent
        Might need the Num Lock key or equivalent? I seem to recall that coming into play, at least for QWERTY keyboards.

        Might need the Num Lock key or equivalent? I seem to recall that coming into play, at least for QWERTY keyboards.

        2 votes
      2. tyil
        Link Parent
        It might depend on OS and keyboard configuration.

        It might depend on OS and keyboard configuration.

        1 vote
    2. Deimos
      Link Parent
      This post also mentions Alt-Gr, é, space, though I'm not sure if that's only for French ones.

      This post also mentions Alt-Gr, é, space, though I'm not sure if that's only for French ones.

      1 vote
  4. pseudolobster
    Link
    I suppose if we had formatting toolbar on the comments box like for bold and whatnot, we could add a ~ button. That'd probably cover most use cases. You'd still run into problems if you're the...

    I suppose if we had formatting toolbar on the comments box like for bold and whatnot, we could add a ~ button. That'd probably cover most use cases.

    You'd still run into problems if you're the type of person who types URLs into the address bar by hand, but then, in most cases there ought to be a ~ already in the current URL or your browser's autocomplete.

    1 vote