My favorite part of last year's link is the link you posted to the year before that. We see the slippery slope, I wonder how far it goes before cars are just perpetual rentals that you need to...
My favorite part of last year's link is the link you posted to the year before that.
We see the slippery slope, I wonder how far it goes before cars are just perpetual rentals that you need to drop a $20k deposit on, pay for all repairs, and it stops working if you ever drop the $500/mo in fees.
I think we need a firm law forcing unlockable bootloaders to add a check/balance to this sort of behavior.
I have no doubts everyone is moving in this subscription-over-ownership direction. Apple will probably be the most successful.
Yeah, I'm really not a fan of this trend either, but unfortunately everything is slowing becoming an IoT device nowadays, even basic appliances, so Corporations pursuing the profit potential of...
Yeah, I'm really not a fan of this trend either, but unfortunately everything is slowing becoming an IoT device nowadays, even basic appliances, so Corporations pursuing the profit potential of making everything SaaS and Hardware–as–a–Service was basically inevitable. :(
That's not far off how a lot of cars already exist and have done for ages. Most new cars (in the UK) are bought on finance. Large deposit followed by monthly fees and if you stop paying someone...
perpetual rentals that you need to drop a $20k deposit on, pay for all repairs, and it stops working if you ever drop the $500/mo in fees.
That's not far off how a lot of cars already exist and have done for ages. Most new cars (in the UK) are bought on finance. Large deposit followed by monthly fees and if you stop paying someone will come round and take the car away, which is no different to it stopping working.
A significant proportion of people don't ever pay off the purchase and never own the car in full (some finance deals don't even have the option for that), they go back to the dealer every five years and use the old car as a deposit on a new one. Which is essentially perpetual rental.
While it's not something I'd do, I don't think it's a terrible way to have a car.
This is interesting, I was unaware that was common in the UK. Is this just for new cars, or also used cars? People in the US definitely do this, but it is one option. Outright purchase is not...
This is interesting, I was unaware that was common in the UK. Is this just for new cars, or also used cars? People in the US definitely do this, but it is one option. Outright purchase is not unusual, though financing is usually the most common. Which can be either through a car dealer, or through your own bank.
Personally, I purchased a used car and paid off the loan in 5 years and now it's mine. It's a 2016 so I don't expect to do more than standard maintenance for awhile. I'm hoping EVs will have permeated the used car market by then.
I am not by any means an expert on the topic but as far as I know you can only get new cars on the kind of hire/purchase deals where you go back after a few years for an upgrade. That kind of...
I am not by any means an expert on the topic but as far as I know you can only get new cars on the kind of hire/purchase deals where you go back after a few years for an upgrade. That kind of thing is via dealers or manufacturers direct, I don't think banks will offer that sort of thing. Used cars can of course be bought on standard loan/credit arrangements where you own the vehicle after paying off the balance. But then you own a lump of metal which is losing you money every day. On the other hand it's also not actively costing you money every day too. There are plusses and minuses to each approach.
Personally I've only ever bought cars for cash, or at least cash plus trade-in for my previous car. Almost always used. The last two of which have been used EVs, plenty of those around here - although they're either fairly pricey or fairly short range.
True, but since you own that lump of metal you can do what you want with it. 3D printing is changing the game for car detailing. Obviously you wouldn't want to print structural stuff, but...
But then you own a lump of metal which is losing you money every day.
True, but since you own that lump of metal you can do what you want with it.
3D printing is changing the game for car detailing. Obviously you wouldn't want to print structural stuff, but repairing/replacing small cosmetic bits, and making aftermarket parts fit nicely with everything has never been easier.
This whole trend is due to the current model of investor capitalism which requires companies to exponentially grow their profits. With no new physical products left to sell, they will have to turn...
This whole trend is due to the current model of investor capitalism which requires companies to exponentially grow their profits. With no new physical products left to sell, they will have to turn to subscriptions and digital goods.
Thought experiment : If this trend continues, could we see the rise of the FOSS EV for a niche segment of the market? ICE powered vehicles are incredibly complex compared to a basic EV vehicle,...
Thought experiment : If this trend continues, could we see the rise of the FOSS EV for a niche segment of the market? ICE powered vehicles are incredibly complex compared to a basic EV vehicle, and people have been building those from kits and spare parts in their home garages for decades.
Granted neither version of the homebrew vehicle is going to have all the features as one of the car manufacturers, but if all you want is a car to get around in....
If anything it'll get worse as autonomous driving functions become more common, it will demand more standardization in how cars communicate with each other and how roads are designed. This means...
If anything it'll get worse as autonomous driving functions become more common, it will demand more standardization in how cars communicate with each other and how roads are designed. This means more regulation, which favors incumbents and squashes open-source approaches.
On the one hand I agree with you. On the other hand, AVs are already better than humans at driving (in specific conditions, which is a huge caveat). So while I am old enough to still see the car...
On the one hand I agree with you. On the other hand, AVs are already better than humans at driving (in specific conditions, which is a huge caveat). So while I am old enough to still see the car as a symbol of independence and personal autonomy (though maybe not as much as my own parents), I'm willing to give some of it up if it means everyone the road can't drive distracted anymore because they're not actually driving.
Also in this hypothetical future, if I can just call an AV any time I need one and not deal with actually owning a car, I'm also ok with that. In which case a subscription/rental type service actually makes a lot of sense to me.
Small correction - "vanishingly tiny proportion of them" Most people don't care. The majority of people take their cars to the garage for everything already, they're not going to start plugging...
a whole lot of them will be trying to find ways to circumvent DRM
Small correction - "vanishingly tiny proportion of them"
Most people don't care. The majority of people take their cars to the garage for everything already, they're not going to start plugging cables in when they already don't change their own air filters, which is even easier. Users or customers isn't a distinction most people care about and why should they? A car is a thing which costs money every month. That the amount of money is affordable and that the car works that's all that matters for a huge number of people.
Homebrew ECU hacking has been going on for as long as there have been ECUs to hack. The manufacturers generally don't like it much but also there aren't enough people on the scene for them to really bother doing to much about it. In theory I am perfectly skilled enough to hack my ECU but frankly no way am I ever going near the thing. If my garage fries my car, they have to fix it at their own cost. If I brick my car that's the most expensive paperweight I've ever bought, and my insurance won't cover me to sort it out.
Despite parent's reply (which appears to be gone now, including the original post?... which I thought also added to the conversation here... I am not intending for this comment on that to be...
Despite parent's reply (which appears to be gone now, including the original post?... which I thought also added to the conversation here... I am not intending for this comment on that to be hostile at all, but I respect their choice to do with their posts as they see fit). I think this is a valid addition to the conversation. I think it's worthwhile to point out how the majority of less "savvy" users will operate and how that can make the fight for openness/right-to-repair/etc more difficult, and how even skilled users may not want to take chances in some cases.
Though, to take the original post into consideration, I do think the more that manufacturers tighten screws, the more people will be interested in finding ways around it or fighting back- people we don't always consider tech-savvy. The John Deere / tractor situation with right-to-repair is one instance of this. If you push consumers hard enough, eventually some that would have never thought otherwise start wondering how they can ease the burden on themselves
It often feels like, in the case of Nintendo and others, that the masses just pay and choose to accept user-hostility, and that it's difficult to fight back when these companies keep raking in the money from fans that aren't willing to vote with their wallet or fight the situation, but I get it, some of us only have so much energy and time to expend on worrying about said issues... it's tough, because I would love for fighting DRM, fighting for right-to-repair, fighting subscription models for hardware, etc all to become far more popular... and who knows, maybe it's already heading that direction. One can hope.
This would be wonderful. The driving part of EVs are basically just skateboards made of battery. Interchangeable kits where you could swap in infotainment, seating, body kits, etc. would be...
We might see lots of “kit car” electric vehicle products.
This would be wonderful. The driving part of EVs are basically just skateboards made of battery. Interchangeable kits where you could swap in infotainment, seating, body kits, etc. would be amazing but, unfortunately, I think the nature of the automotive design process and safety regulations make it basically impossible for major car makers to do it. And without them, you're never gonna get to the returns to scale we'd need for it to be price competitive.
If you want it to work, you'll need to radically change the design and manufacturing process as well as how cars are regulated. You'd need both standardized APIs as well as standard requirements for interchangeability between manufacturers, which would be a whole big thing. The manufacturers themselves already do a lot of this internally with how they bin parts, but even there it's challenging to make all the different kinds of cars they like to make.
Previous discussion on this subject from last year:
Mercedes Makes Better Performance a $1,200 Subscription in Its EVs (The Drive)
My favorite part of last year's link is the link you posted to the year before that.
We see the slippery slope, I wonder how far it goes before cars are just perpetual rentals that you need to drop a $20k deposit on, pay for all repairs, and it stops working if you ever drop the $500/mo in fees.
I think we need a firm law forcing unlockable bootloaders to add a check/balance to this sort of behavior.
I have no doubts everyone is moving in this subscription-over-ownership direction. Apple will probably be the most successful.
Yeah, I'm really not a fan of this trend either, but unfortunately everything is slowing becoming an IoT device nowadays, even basic appliances, so Corporations pursuing the profit potential of making everything SaaS and Hardware–as–a–Service was basically inevitable. :(
That's not far off how a lot of cars already exist and have done for ages. Most new cars (in the UK) are bought on finance. Large deposit followed by monthly fees and if you stop paying someone will come round and take the car away, which is no different to it stopping working.
A significant proportion of people don't ever pay off the purchase and never own the car in full (some finance deals don't even have the option for that), they go back to the dealer every five years and use the old car as a deposit on a new one. Which is essentially perpetual rental.
While it's not something I'd do, I don't think it's a terrible way to have a car.
This is interesting, I was unaware that was common in the UK. Is this just for new cars, or also used cars? People in the US definitely do this, but it is one option. Outright purchase is not unusual, though financing is usually the most common. Which can be either through a car dealer, or through your own bank.
Personally, I purchased a used car and paid off the loan in 5 years and now it's mine. It's a 2016 so I don't expect to do more than standard maintenance for awhile. I'm hoping EVs will have permeated the used car market by then.
I am not by any means an expert on the topic but as far as I know you can only get new cars on the kind of hire/purchase deals where you go back after a few years for an upgrade. That kind of thing is via dealers or manufacturers direct, I don't think banks will offer that sort of thing. Used cars can of course be bought on standard loan/credit arrangements where you own the vehicle after paying off the balance. But then you own a lump of metal which is losing you money every day. On the other hand it's also not actively costing you money every day too. There are plusses and minuses to each approach.
Personally I've only ever bought cars for cash, or at least cash plus trade-in for my previous car. Almost always used. The last two of which have been used EVs, plenty of those around here - although they're either fairly pricey or fairly short range.
True, but since you own that lump of metal you can do what you want with it.
3D printing is changing the game for car detailing. Obviously you wouldn't want to print structural stuff, but repairing/replacing small cosmetic bits, and making aftermarket parts fit nicely with everything has never been easier.
This whole trend is due to the current model of investor capitalism which requires companies to exponentially grow their profits. With no new physical products left to sell, they will have to turn to subscriptions and digital goods.
Thought experiment : If this trend continues, could we see the rise of the FOSS EV for a niche segment of the market? ICE powered vehicles are incredibly complex compared to a basic EV vehicle, and people have been building those from kits and spare parts in their home garages for decades.
Granted neither version of the homebrew vehicle is going to have all the features as one of the car manufacturers, but if all you want is a car to get around in....
If anything it'll get worse as autonomous driving functions become more common, it will demand more standardization in how cars communicate with each other and how roads are designed. This means more regulation, which favors incumbents and squashes open-source approaches.
On the one hand I agree with you. On the other hand, AVs are already better than humans at driving (in specific conditions, which is a huge caveat). So while I am old enough to still see the car as a symbol of independence and personal autonomy (though maybe not as much as my own parents), I'm willing to give some of it up if it means everyone the road can't drive distracted anymore because they're not actually driving.
Also in this hypothetical future, if I can just call an AV any time I need one and not deal with actually owning a car, I'm also ok with that. In which case a subscription/rental type service actually makes a lot of sense to me.
I don’t think AVs will ever get there outside of cloistered zones honestly. At least not in the foreseeable future.
We sort of have this with the Ebike situation. Its a mixed bag, especially WRT battery safety.
Small correction - "vanishingly tiny proportion of them"
Most people don't care. The majority of people take their cars to the garage for everything already, they're not going to start plugging cables in when they already don't change their own air filters, which is even easier. Users or customers isn't a distinction most people care about and why should they? A car is a thing which costs money every month. That the amount of money is affordable and that the car works that's all that matters for a huge number of people.
Homebrew ECU hacking has been going on for as long as there have been ECUs to hack. The manufacturers generally don't like it much but also there aren't enough people on the scene for them to really bother doing to much about it. In theory I am perfectly skilled enough to hack my ECU but frankly no way am I ever going near the thing. If my garage fries my car, they have to fix it at their own cost. If I brick my car that's the most expensive paperweight I've ever bought, and my insurance won't cover me to sort it out.
Despite parent's reply (which appears to be gone now, including the original post?... which I thought also added to the conversation here... I am not intending for this comment on that to be hostile at all, but I respect their choice to do with their posts as they see fit). I think this is a valid addition to the conversation. I think it's worthwhile to point out how the majority of less "savvy" users will operate and how that can make the fight for openness/right-to-repair/etc more difficult, and how even skilled users may not want to take chances in some cases.
Though, to take the original post into consideration, I do think the more that manufacturers tighten screws, the more people will be interested in finding ways around it or fighting back- people we don't always consider tech-savvy. The John Deere / tractor situation with right-to-repair is one instance of this. If you push consumers hard enough, eventually some that would have never thought otherwise start wondering how they can ease the burden on themselves
It often feels like, in the case of Nintendo and others, that the masses just pay and choose to accept user-hostility, and that it's difficult to fight back when these companies keep raking in the money from fans that aren't willing to vote with their wallet or fight the situation, but I get it, some of us only have so much energy and time to expend on worrying about said issues... it's tough, because I would love for fighting DRM, fighting for right-to-repair, fighting subscription models for hardware, etc all to become far more popular... and who knows, maybe it's already heading that direction. One can hope.
This would be wonderful. The driving part of EVs are basically just skateboards made of battery. Interchangeable kits where you could swap in infotainment, seating, body kits, etc. would be amazing but, unfortunately, I think the nature of the automotive design process and safety regulations make it basically impossible for major car makers to do it. And without them, you're never gonna get to the returns to scale we'd need for it to be price competitive.
If you want it to work, you'll need to radically change the design and manufacturing process as well as how cars are regulated. You'd need both standardized APIs as well as standard requirements for interchangeability between manufacturers, which would be a whole big thing. The manufacturers themselves already do a lot of this internally with how they bin parts, but even there it's challenging to make all the different kinds of cars they like to make.