Cameras/software for watching roofs
Lately there's been a rash of people ripping apart AC units on small business' so they can sell them for parts (mostly the copper). Tends to take days to months to discover, and by that time they're long gone and the police are rarely interested in it (in my experience even when you figure out who's actually buying stolen copper, or car parts....but i digress).
I was asked as a friend to help with this for a couple of small business locations that otherwise don't need normal security. To start it's just one large, 60x300', roof with a couple of units on it. They're willing to spend money, but also don't want to get scammed, so I've been looking into it for them.
They're getting a quote from one of the big security companies like ADT, but didn't feel they were getting it right since they just wanted a camera pointing at the access ladder, when it sure looks like the first time this happened it was someone who brought their own, so they really do need some good coverage and not just one camera pointed at a ladder while they pay for some 24/7 person to stare at the feed.
The rough requirements are:
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Some decent weatherproofing, as this will be on a roof all day. We can put an enclosure around it but trying to keep this simple.
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Easy remote access to footage, ideally with notifications that can be setup for things like human motion, or lost connection.
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Ideally fewer cameras. Not exactly because of cost, but because of the difficulty of getting the power/network up there. Be a lot easier to do one drop in the middle of the roof than say a drop at every corner.
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Probably not wifi cameras. I figure we need to run power up there anyways, so it might as well be POE if at all possible. Added bonus being that you don't need to worry as much about wifi signal and the rare enterprising criminal with a jammer/scrambler/whatever?
and the tricky one
5. No on site storage. Likely they'll want cloud.
My first thoughts:
I have ubiquiti at home, and this seemed fine for it as a nice in-between since they probably need 2-4 POE cameras max (was going to see if i could get away with 2 in the middle of the roof, one looking each way). Was going to mess around and see what level of alerts they give and make them a couple of accounts (basically one alert to the person who'd call the cops and one to the person who'd look at it if the feed went down).
The no on site storage thing however, complicates stuff....i think?
The short version is there's no way to do even a basic NVR there (i've been over this thoroughly, and it's more a drama thing than a business thing). I figured that wouldn't be an issue, they'd just have to pay extra for some cloud storage and host it there, and it would probably scale well for them if they liked the solution and rolled it out anywhere else. Rather than having a bunch of NVR's they could just have one cloud based one, neat.
buuuuut it seems ubiquiti doesn't really do that. The people i'm helping are somewhat technical but i'd like to keep this turnkey as possible. I don't think there's any clean/easy way to accomplish this with ubiquiti, or at least that I can find?
In theory I think there might be some clever network way to host the NVR at some other physical/central location (with less drama) and then route all the traffic there, but that's beyond my current ability, and i'm skeptical that even if I learn how, i can keep it simple enough that i'd feel comfortable suggesting it.
The followup research:
So there's huge professional companies like verkanda/axis. I did some basic pricing research and it looks like $2kish, minimum, a year for these things. That might be within their budget (i'm told the damage done was easily into the 5 figure territory), but it also feels like extreme overkill for something that should be easier to solve?
Another one i've come across before is Reolink, but I have 0 experience with it and haven't found much in either direction that makes me think it'd be a good solution or a terrible one.
I'm pretty against ring/nest just due to a mixture of "fuck em" and also feeling like you don't get what you pay for.
Overall-
Anyone have any experience or guidance with this sort of thing? I really feel like my own home network/camera setup has me right on the edge of being able to say "ah yeah here's what you need...." and yet i've fallen at the finish line. Is there some easy way to make ubiquiti work (seems to meet all the needs except the cloud storage)? Or some system you're familiar with that does have that feature?
I feel like i bump into these kinds of problems more and more where the options are "make it a second hobby/job" or "pay through the nose" when it feels like there should be a reasonable inbetween.
I've installed and maintained a lot of different security cameras for businesses in a past IT life. Honestly for all the hate that the likes of Ring and similar companies get I could see it working very well here..
They don't require ongoing IT level maintenance, has reliable solar power options - so no wire runs at all when run in wifi, cameras are rated for exterior use (be reasonable tho), dead simple notifications can be setup for the user, and even accounting for years of subscription fees it will be substantially cheaper than any mobotix or other "good" security camera.
Also, to work better as a deterrent and to get something actually usable at night I'd add a couple strong solar powered motion activated spotlights either side the camera.
Given your description of the problem, I'm not quite seeing how this is a special case that goes beyond "just get a security camera system that meets your requirements". They run the gamut of wired vs wireless, on-board storage vs cloud, open source vs proprietary, linked vs standalone, weatherproof vs not, etc. etc.
The largest obstacle is probably the wiring for Ethernet and/or power, if you really don't want to go wireless. Solar powering is probably also an option.
Perhaps also consider setting up surveillance from nearby, instead of right on the target buildings themselves. i.e. in or on neighbouring buildings instead, pointing at the target buildings.
That is the problem. I'm not sure what does. The fact that they would like some form of remote viewing/notification of the feed, some level of storage, and want it all in the cloud doesn't line up much with anything I'm aware of, hence the question.
As I mentioned I've found some solutions, and if need be I'll recommend on the pricey side, but i'd like to see if there's something a little less extreme.
Wiring is "easy" from my POV because they already know they need to do that and hiring the right people to do that kind of work is something they're familiar with, and I know it'll get done right, and that the wiring needed is there. The problem is figuring out what system actually fits the needs.
As for nearby, I didn't mention but yeah I looked into that, and not really an option due to location.
We found that monitoring cameras work until thieves test them enough to find blind spots and response times. And if they find out that no one is constantly monitoring or you have remote monitoring, they can just kill your data lines. So now you need cameras to cover every space and cameras to watch the cameras and cameras to watch the infrastructure and you pay someone for monitoring of all those feeds. It sounds excessive, but this happened at our warehouse where they damaged the right two network cables, waited for the security patrol to do a quick check and then hid in the blind spot where they stripped most of a generator.
And there's also the biggest downside of cameras. The crime is most likely done (its surprisingly fast to rip out parts). Even if you get the entire crime on film, with full view of the criminals faces. Are the cops going to actually do anything about it? You already noticed that when you found the scrap dealer.Youll probably only see traction if you can get a sound recording and they use real names and leave prints.
My best suggestion would be a simple camera system in combination with other, cheaper solutions. We use a hikvision cams and you can configure it for a cloud storage service. Though you would want to keep local backup of all footage and only push event footage to the cloud. It's a balance because sometimes the event triggers can miss a few critical seconds but pushing everything to cloud will eat storage.
But the cheaper solutions are is where you can get a ton of value. A big one is a security hub with a lot of passive modules that work wirelessly. Ajax is what I use for my home system since they have a pretty comprehensive package, if a bit pricier (but no subscription charge). But at work, our security team practically rigged everything themselves with cheap sensors hooked up to relays and radios. And the big security companies should have these solutions, but you need to be explicit on what you ask for because they tend to sell much more than you need and will push you to active camera monitoring. Its most expensive equipment and service.
One thing that works very well is door contacts. We caught the generator thieves a year later with a cheap sensor that picked up when the panel was pulled open and tripped a silent alarm. And since then we evolved it into multiple layers of passive security that was cheaper and dramatically more effective than adding cameras.
To paint a picture of the setup:
Layer 0 is the common sense things we didn't do. Cycling locks. Securing tools and ladders. We barred windows and razor wire where practical. Randomized patrols. Two person lockup inspection. Cleared up foliage that screened areas. Tamper tape on maintenance panels. Patrol check lists. Graveled up dirt patches since its a lot louder to walk on. There was a ton of cheap/free things we neglected.
Layer 1 is general perimeter motion sensors on outside of the property. They're also hooked up to spotlights that pull a double duty. It lights up the area for pedestrians/staff walking at night. And it makes intruders feel more exposed. If it trips, security gets an alert ping.
Layer 2 is the threshold sensors. Every door and window is on a contact and we have curtain beams to flag if anyone crosses onto the roof or parking lot. That immediately prompts a patrol, gets security to monitor cameras and owners get an alert.
Layer 3 is all the critical alarms. Glass break sound sensors. Contacts on critical equipment. Motion in a locked down space. Panic button. All of those trigger sirens and starts flashing the lights.
And with this, we're not messing with any subscriptions or more data storage or putting additional work onto security.
Thankfully, with this there hasn't been any major activity for a few years now.
Also, just to loop back to cameras. Unless it's an inside job, a criminal can't tell the difference between a camera and a camera body.
We've got a bunch of solid snakes over here hot damn. That's a fairly comprehensive plan to strip a genny. Was it worth that much?
Its a 80 kva gen for that shared across the park because its not uncommon to get rolling blackouts out of the blue. They pulled everything short of the engine. Batteries. Belt. Extra Filters and oil. Starter motor. They couldn't get the alternator out so they bashed it to hell. Even cut out all the cable they could. But we're sure that they had our security in their pocket so we got an in-house security team.
The full story is actually insane and we were not the actual target. It was part of a syndicate operation run by a group of illegal foreign miners that used to sneak into the the quieter mine tunnels and go to town. But when they got violent, the mines and police started clamping down on them very aggressively so they were looking for other opportunities. And these are organized and funded operations and very well planned out. So what they did was hit a few stores with regular break ins. Then they hit us a few days later and wrecked the generator and a few trucks. And the next day there was an armed robbery at a take-away further down. So everyone was on high alert and keeping their eyes out in the area.
But that was a cover. Because they kept people in an empty garage next to those first stores. And just after the robbery it was a long weekend. And they knew that a place next to that garage would only empty their safe on Wednesday. So on Tuesday night, they literally went through the walls and cut their safe. And then they move onto the next area until things calm down.
But what happens is after a while, some of the dumber members blow all their money and try to hit up all the same places on their own. So we were expecting a follow up and prepped accordingly. But yeh, we deal with some Solid Snake, Oceans Eleven, Italian Job BS this side. Right now the big thing is kidnapping syndicates and there are some messed up stories that come out of that. Last year 3 kids were taken for a few weeks and my cousin was kidnapped for 3 months. There was also a lady who basically planned the kidnapping of her husband with some kids and messed the whole thing up to a stupid degree. So fun times.
Even if it takes you two hours to do all that and you only make $100 that's basically $50 an hour.
After asking here on tildes earlier this year, I ended up going with reolink as pretty much the only option I could acquire here that didn't seem prehistoric in terms of usability and business practices, didn't seem like a front for the chinese government (though who knows?) and had plenty of models so I could find the type of camera I needed. Buying from them in Europe was easy, their website is good and their software is easy to use. Hikvision was available through shady local outfits only, Armcrest didn't sell to Europe, and Annke didn't get back to me on time.
I can't answer all of your questions but here are a few possibly helpful facts (or at least that seem relevant to your prompt) about my reolink camera:
I've been pretty impressed with Reolink. Even their cheapest offerings at less than $50 have no monthly fee and can stream from WiFi to a remote server (FTP dropbox, or others), motion detection, notifications/alerts to email or phone number, etc.
Wyze Labs has some that don't even require a power outlet but having wired power and Ethernet improves reliability a lot. Put a UPS on the modem and camera power so it can still upload even during a blackout
I'd start with razor wire/concertina wire.
You can order it pretty cheaply at vevor.com
Making your location more of a hassle than the one across the street will have a much larger deterrent effect than cameras, which won't do much to actually prevent the damage.
Don't believe that's an option, possibly for legal reasons/drama alluded to before.
I still think ubiquiti is a solid option. The unifi controller is just a bit of software that can run on any computer. Unifi devices don’t need to be on the same subnet as the controller. There is nothing special about Internet connections vs LAN connections. So you should be able to run the controller in AWS EC2 or whatever VPS host you want. The only possible issue is that their upload speed needs to support the camera bitrate.
I used to watch a YouTube channel crosstalk solutions many years ago. He was a professional installer. For most of his installations, he used an AWS server as the controller. That was for networking, not cameras, but I don’t think there is any fundamental reason it couldn’t work.
Interesting. I'll have to look into this. I think Reolink is the likely solution as it'll be good enough and probably easier for them to maintain, but this is something I'd like to better understand anyways.