62 votes

US senator and pilot Tammy Duckworth: anyone who votes to reduce the 1,500 hour rule for pilot training will have blood on their hands

Posted by boxer_dogs_dance
Tags: usa, safety.aviation, work, training, pilots, regulation, politics, author.tammy duckworth, source.time, paywall
https://time.com/6309503/congress-airplane-safety-rules-1500-hours/

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Title
Congress Can't Erode Airplane Safety Rules That Save Lives
Published
Aug 30 2023

9 comments

  1. ackables
    Link
    I think the big problem is that becoming a pilot is law school expensive for not very much benefit until later in your career. If the airlines need more pilots, they need to start paying for...

    I think the big problem is that becoming a pilot is law school expensive for not very much benefit until later in your career. If the airlines need more pilots, they need to start paying for flight school instead of lobbying to lower the experience needed to fly a commercial jet.

    49 votes
  2. [8]
    j3n
    Link
    This is a nearly content-less polemic. How, exactly, did we arrive at the 1500 hour number? Was it well thought out and considered at the time, or was it a knee-jerk reaction? (I have my own...

    This is a nearly content-less polemic. How, exactly, did we arrive at the 1500 hour number? Was it well thought out and considered at the time, or was it a knee-jerk reaction? (I have my own knee-jerk suspicion...) There is a real problem in the world today in that safety standards only ever move in one direction. It makes literally every aspect of life more expensive. It is a good idea to revisit standards from time to time and investigate whether they really need to be as stringent as they currently are.

    7 votes
    1. [4]
      petrichor
      Link Parent
      There's obvious harm in reducing stringency. What's the good in reducing stringency?

      There's obvious harm in reducing stringency. What's the good in reducing stringency?

      25 votes
      1. [3]
        Barbox
        Link Parent
        Efficient use of resources, including time. If pilots with 1k hours under their belt are just as safe as ones with 1.5k, it would be more efficient to only require 1k. Granted, the challenge is...

        Efficient use of resources, including time.

        If pilots with 1k hours under their belt are just as safe as ones with 1.5k, it would be more efficient to only require 1k. Granted, the challenge is figuring out where the line should be drawn, ideally without getting people killed.

        12 votes
        1. [2]
          Hobofarmer
          Link Parent
          IMHO and I am not a pilot, the article states a "majority" of that 1500 hours needs to be experience with inclement weather. Why not make it 1000 hours exclusively in inclement weather?

          IMHO and I am not a pilot, the article states a "majority" of that 1500 hours needs to be experience with inclement weather. Why not make it 1000 hours exclusively in inclement weather?

          1. bengine
            Link Parent
            The article says 'adequate proportion' and not majority. You can read the regulation 14 CFR 61 § 159, and it's more like 125 hours of night time and 75 hours of instrument conditions (essentially...

            The article says 'adequate proportion' and not majority. You can read the regulation 14 CFR 61 § 159, and it's more like 125 hours of night time and 75 hours of instrument conditions (essentially poor visibility).

            4 votes
    2. [2]
      chocobean
      Link Parent
      Regulations are written in blood. But sometimes they are reactionary in completely wrong ways after the spilling of blood. This Forbes article has a LOT more info: This rule got in place after a...

      Regulations are written in blood. But sometimes they are reactionary in completely wrong ways after the spilling of blood.

      This Forbes article has a LOT more info:

      This rule got in place after a 2009 air disaster, but---

      The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) ruled that the Colgan crash was primarily due to the pilot inappropriately responding to his situation, and they pointed out that fatigue was a contributing factor — the captain had chronic sleep loss in the days before the accident and both he and the first officer had interrupted and poor-quality sleep in the 24 hours before their 9:18 p.m. takeoff. However, the 1500 hour rule does nothing about pilot fatigue — no post-Colgan regulation has addressed that. And the NTSB did not conclude that either of the pilots were inexperienced. Each of the pilots had over 2,000 flight hours so the 1500 hour rule would not have kept either of them out of that cockpit.

      It's blatantly stupid mess more than a dozen years in the making -- even back before 2009 we already knew there were kids who wanted to be pilots who had to fly a bunch of nonsense hours and get into debt to afford the hours. It's already the second highest paying job in America and there's a shortage: they could have ended it in one single day by making those 1500 hours PAID apprenticeship.

      The apprentice-based pilot system, pioneered in the U.S. and used around the world, is still in effect everywhere outside the U.S. Since the 1500 Hour rule was enacted in 2010, 12 years ago, not a single country has matched it. You’d think that if this really was a safety issue, at least some countries would have moved to this new standard by now. The European Union requires a minimum of 230 hours along with specific airline training, and Canada still requires what the U.S. used to — a Commercial license, minimum of 250 hours, and specific training.

      Incidentally this slow mo idiocy gives me LESS faith in flying American planes.

      15 votes
      1. boxer_dogs_dance
        Link Parent
        Thank you for the background. I am absolutely in favor of this being debated by experts and changed if warranted. Duckworth might be wrong but it should be clearly established with evidence. I...

        Thank you for the background. I am absolutely in favor of this being debated by experts and changed if warranted. Duckworth might be wrong but it should be clearly established with evidence.

        I have a close contact in pilot school right now. I agree, apprenticeships should be paid.

        6 votes
    3. boxer_dogs_dance
      Link Parent
      You are asking good questions. Duckworth is appealing to her authority as a pilot and as a military veteran and as a lawmaker. But more importantly she is using her clout as a lawmaker to get the...

      You are asking good questions. Duckworth is appealing to her authority as a pilot and as a military veteran and as a lawmaker. But more importantly she is using her clout as a lawmaker to get the story out.

      Crashing a plane is very dangerous for many more people than the pilot. As a society we have an interest in safe mass transportation. If you go back fifty years or so, crashes were more common.

      Possibly the 1500 hour rule should be debated by experts, but it shouldn't be stealth weakened by legislators who know nothing about it.

      2 votes