The article doesn't mention this at all, but wouldn't the fact that all people being weighed are volunteers make the data less useful? I have to imagine that certain demographics are more likely...
The article doesn't mention this at all, but wouldn't the fact that all people being weighed are volunteers make the data less useful? I have to imagine that certain demographics are more likely to volunteer to be weighed than others. Are people of a 'normal'/healthy weight more likely to volunteer because they don't feel conscious of their weight, for example? Or perhaps people who are overweight are more likely to volunteer because people who are a 'normal' weight don't feel like their input will be helpful as they're just 'average' anyway.
I'm a healthy weight, but maybe because I remember flying pre-9/11, I tend to be a little bit of an airport contrarían. I'm never rude, but I don't volunteer more information or accommodation than...
I'm a healthy weight, but maybe because I remember flying pre-9/11, I tend to be a little bit of an airport contrarían. I'm never rude, but I don't volunteer more information or accommodation than necessary. So I would opt out of being weighed, just like I used to opt out of some of the scans.
Maybe if they offered me a discount, lol. While we're at it, offer me a gas savers discount for being fit and only flying with a backpack, saving weight and fuel. 😂
I've certainly heard that suggested before. Weigh people and their luggage on one big scale and charge for the combined weight. I wonder if airlines have already considered this and concluded that...
Maybe if they offered me a discount, lol. While we're at it, offer me a gas savers discount for being fit and only flying with a backpack, saving weight and fuel. 😂
I've certainly heard that suggested before. Weigh people and their luggage on one big scale and charge for the combined weight. I wonder if airlines have already considered this and concluded that it would violate anti discrimination laws.
Weight itself isn't a protected class, but many protected classes are correlated with weight. Men are on average larger than women. Does charging for weight amount legally to sex discrimination? How about if someone is overweight because of a medical issue? Is that discrimination based on disability? Or, God help you, what if a review of your passenger weight data indicates one racial group or another has higher than average weight values? Are you violating laws against racial discrimination by charging based on weight?
Now, one night object that all sorts of industries put weight limits on their products. For instance, many amusement parks rides may have weight limits. A key distinction here is that most such restrictions are based on safety. You can't ride this ride as your weight is a literal safety hazard; the restraints literally aren't designed for you. And if someone who weighed 1200 lbs tried to fly, airlines could likely turn them away on similar grounds. But in this case, the airlines wouldn't be arguing heavier passengers are a safety risk. Rather it would just be a money grab. That's a lot harder to justify under anti discrimination laws.
What should be protected is height, or specifically leg length. As a tall person its criminal to charge me extra for a seat with extra leg room when some of the seat spaces are now so close...
What should be protected is height, or specifically leg length. As a tall person its criminal to charge me extra for a seat with extra leg room when some of the seat spaces are now so close together that I literally can't sit without my knees pressed into the seat ahead. Ive had the person ahead try to push their seat back and they cant unless I do the leg spread thing and put one knee against the person beside me and the other into an aisle - which is also pleasant when you get whacked by a cart. Why should I be forced to buy an upgraded seat just because I was born tall?
My solution, honestly, is that I just quit flying. Way too much hassle, way too uncomfortable, security theatre that's far too intrusive. The seat space was just one of so many irritating things about it.
They should both be protected. Accommodating people should include making it as safe and comfortable for tall people as well as fat people as well as children, etc.
They should both be protected. Accommodating people should include making it as safe and comfortable for tall people as well as fat people as well as children, etc.
It's a fun hypothetical. In a legal sense, I don't think that correlation with a protected class would be enough, unless it was to a significant extent, or if you could show intent behind the...
It's a fun hypothetical. In a legal sense, I don't think that correlation with a protected class would be enough, unless it was to a significant extent, or if you could show intent behind the rule. After all, life insurance companies charge premiums based on health and after a certain age or above a policy amount require a physical and clean bill of health. Being overweight can definitely preclude you from lower rates or coverage as a health factor.
The generally protected classes include
race, color, religion, sex (including pregnancy, sexual orientation, or gender identity), national origin, age (40 or older), disability and genetic information.
But it's important to note that these classes each were protected from different things, for different reasons, by different laws. So we would need to look at each law and subsequent case law.
Disability, I think, might be argued if reasons for the weight of the person, or necessary medical equipment were outside of their control due to the disability. That's easy enough though, simply excuse medical devices from the cost calculation and exempt people with documented disabilities. Because the ADA specifically covers access to services, the airlines would need to make sure they didn't create barriers for people with disabilities, procedural or cost.
You might say that race is correlated with weight, but barring small differences in statistical averages, I think it correlates more to poverty and access to good nutrition, which isn't a protected class.
Genetic information is one where I doubt there is much case law since we haven't made sequencing common enough aa standard of care. You could argue a generic predisposition to gain weight is discrimination. But two things: first, the act currently only protects from health insurance and employment discrimination, and two, I don't think courts would hold that discriminating against your genes is the same as a weight-fuel-consumption based pricing model. Plus, arguing that you were discriminated against based on your genes, that the other party didn't have access to, sounds like an uphill argument.
Plus, a consumption based price would add too much variability for the airlines and be way too complicated and expensive to administer to be practical. But it is a fun hypothetical. In such a world, I wonder how many people would fly in swim suits to cut weight?
Good analysis. The insurance example is a great point. Airlines could likely justify weight-based charges on similar grounds. And if airlines did start charging for weight, I imagine things would...
Good analysis. The insurance example is a great point. Airlines could likely justify weight-based charges on similar grounds. And if airlines did start charging for weight, I imagine things would go further than just people flying in swimsuits. This reminds me of the case of the Pizza hut salad buffet stacking that famously happened in some parts of China. Pizza Hut put a rule in that said people could go through the salad bar one time with a single plate. So people naturally responded by stacking more and more on that one plate. Eventually an elaborate tradition developed of people trying to one-up each other with increasingly elaborate salad plate structures.
It's humorous to imagine something like that developing with airline weight minimization. Think of the elaborate lengths wrestlers will go to in order to get into a certain weight class prior to a match. I imagine who tiktoks devoted to a subculture of trying to absolutely minimize weight prior to flights, encompassing clothes, luggage, and body weight. For holiday travelers, a tradition might develop of fasting heavily before the holidays and then breaking the fast on the holiday itself. The kinds of techniques employed by ultralight campers might come into vogue for some air travelers.
Or, even stranger, imagine if people started deliberately bringing more weight onto the plane as an odd kind of flex. Imagine people posting videos showing off their "high scores." Even better if the goal isn't to maximize weight through body weight, but simply from carrying a very large amount of clothes and luggage.
Ahhh that wrestling thing gave me flashbacks to high school LOL. I think my record was like 6 pounds in about a day and a half? Something stupid like that. I also kinda wonder logistically how it...
Ahhh that wrestling thing gave me flashbacks to high school LOL. I think my record was like 6 pounds in about a day and a half? Something stupid like that. I also kinda wonder logistically how it would work, the first thing I thought of tbh was that one image a couple of years ago where people had to walk through a set of bars basically to determine how much percent off their price was for an all you can eat buffet. The closer together the bars were, the bigger your discount.
Assuming human psychology hasn't changed dramatically since the last time they did a volunteer-based survey, they still could get useful information: If the population as a whole has gotten...
Assuming human psychology hasn't changed dramatically since the last time they did a volunteer-based survey, they still could get useful information: If the population as a whole has gotten heavier, what is considered a "normal" weight would have changed with it, hence people with higher weight would be less self conscious about it and more willing to volunteer. This in turn would result in a higher average weight of the volunteers.
“In accordance with TSA regulations, your re-weigh has been displayed to prevent disputes, should you choose to contest our final pricing,” said the agent coolly. “Your documented weight, inclusive of your carry-on baggage, is two hundred and seventy-two point three pounds, which rounds under the current international pricing structure to two hundred seventy-five. You have paid for a two hundred and fifty pound ticket. You may choose to pay an additional two hundred and fifty dollars, or you may make an attempt to lower your cumulative weight. You have one re-weigh remaining.”
I’m honestly surprised the planes aren’t equipped with some sort of scale mechanism in the wheels. Seems like they should be able to check the weight before takeoff and get all the information...
I’m honestly surprised the planes aren’t equipped with some sort of scale mechanism in the wheels. Seems like they should be able to check the weight before takeoff and get all the information they need.
The article doesn't mention this at all, but wouldn't the fact that all people being weighed are volunteers make the data less useful? I have to imagine that certain demographics are more likely to volunteer to be weighed than others. Are people of a 'normal'/healthy weight more likely to volunteer because they don't feel conscious of their weight, for example? Or perhaps people who are overweight are more likely to volunteer because people who are a 'normal' weight don't feel like their input will be helpful as they're just 'average' anyway.
I'm a healthy weight, but maybe because I remember flying pre-9/11, I tend to be a little bit of an airport contrarían. I'm never rude, but I don't volunteer more information or accommodation than necessary. So I would opt out of being weighed, just like I used to opt out of some of the scans.
Maybe if they offered me a discount, lol. While we're at it, offer me a gas savers discount for being fit and only flying with a backpack, saving weight and fuel. 😂
I've certainly heard that suggested before. Weigh people and their luggage on one big scale and charge for the combined weight. I wonder if airlines have already considered this and concluded that it would violate anti discrimination laws.
Weight itself isn't a protected class, but many protected classes are correlated with weight. Men are on average larger than women. Does charging for weight amount legally to sex discrimination? How about if someone is overweight because of a medical issue? Is that discrimination based on disability? Or, God help you, what if a review of your passenger weight data indicates one racial group or another has higher than average weight values? Are you violating laws against racial discrimination by charging based on weight?
Now, one night object that all sorts of industries put weight limits on their products. For instance, many amusement parks rides may have weight limits. A key distinction here is that most such restrictions are based on safety. You can't ride this ride as your weight is a literal safety hazard; the restraints literally aren't designed for you. And if someone who weighed 1200 lbs tried to fly, airlines could likely turn them away on similar grounds. But in this case, the airlines wouldn't be arguing heavier passengers are a safety risk. Rather it would just be a money grab. That's a lot harder to justify under anti discrimination laws.
What should be protected is height, or specifically leg length. As a tall person its criminal to charge me extra for a seat with extra leg room when some of the seat spaces are now so close together that I literally can't sit without my knees pressed into the seat ahead. Ive had the person ahead try to push their seat back and they cant unless I do the leg spread thing and put one knee against the person beside me and the other into an aisle - which is also pleasant when you get whacked by a cart. Why should I be forced to buy an upgraded seat just because I was born tall?
My solution, honestly, is that I just quit flying. Way too much hassle, way too uncomfortable, security theatre that's far too intrusive. The seat space was just one of so many irritating things about it.
They should both be protected. Accommodating people should include making it as safe and comfortable for tall people as well as fat people as well as children, etc.
It's a fun hypothetical. In a legal sense, I don't think that correlation with a protected class would be enough, unless it was to a significant extent, or if you could show intent behind the rule. After all, life insurance companies charge premiums based on health and after a certain age or above a policy amount require a physical and clean bill of health. Being overweight can definitely preclude you from lower rates or coverage as a health factor.
The generally protected classes include
But it's important to note that these classes each were protected from different things, for different reasons, by different laws. So we would need to look at each law and subsequent case law.
Disability, I think, might be argued if reasons for the weight of the person, or necessary medical equipment were outside of their control due to the disability. That's easy enough though, simply excuse medical devices from the cost calculation and exempt people with documented disabilities. Because the ADA specifically covers access to services, the airlines would need to make sure they didn't create barriers for people with disabilities, procedural or cost.
You might say that race is correlated with weight, but barring small differences in statistical averages, I think it correlates more to poverty and access to good nutrition, which isn't a protected class.
Genetic information is one where I doubt there is much case law since we haven't made sequencing common enough aa standard of care. You could argue a generic predisposition to gain weight is discrimination. But two things: first, the act currently only protects from health insurance and employment discrimination, and two, I don't think courts would hold that discriminating against your genes is the same as a weight-fuel-consumption based pricing model. Plus, arguing that you were discriminated against based on your genes, that the other party didn't have access to, sounds like an uphill argument.
Plus, a consumption based price would add too much variability for the airlines and be way too complicated and expensive to administer to be practical. But it is a fun hypothetical. In such a world, I wonder how many people would fly in swim suits to cut weight?
Good analysis. The insurance example is a great point. Airlines could likely justify weight-based charges on similar grounds. And if airlines did start charging for weight, I imagine things would go further than just people flying in swimsuits. This reminds me of the case of the Pizza hut salad buffet stacking that famously happened in some parts of China. Pizza Hut put a rule in that said people could go through the salad bar one time with a single plate. So people naturally responded by stacking more and more on that one plate. Eventually an elaborate tradition developed of people trying to one-up each other with increasingly elaborate salad plate structures.
It's humorous to imagine something like that developing with airline weight minimization. Think of the elaborate lengths wrestlers will go to in order to get into a certain weight class prior to a match. I imagine who tiktoks devoted to a subculture of trying to absolutely minimize weight prior to flights, encompassing clothes, luggage, and body weight. For holiday travelers, a tradition might develop of fasting heavily before the holidays and then breaking the fast on the holiday itself. The kinds of techniques employed by ultralight campers might come into vogue for some air travelers.
Or, even stranger, imagine if people started deliberately bringing more weight onto the plane as an odd kind of flex. Imagine people posting videos showing off their "high scores." Even better if the goal isn't to maximize weight through body weight, but simply from carrying a very large amount of clothes and luggage.
"I like your jewelry, is it silver?"
"Nah, chromed lead, cause I'm rich bitch."
Ahhh that wrestling thing gave me flashbacks to high school LOL. I think my record was like 6 pounds in about a day and a half? Something stupid like that. I also kinda wonder logistically how it would work, the first thing I thought of tbh was that one image a couple of years ago where people had to walk through a set of bars basically to determine how much percent off their price was for an all you can eat buffet. The closer together the bars were, the bigger your discount.
Assuming human psychology hasn't changed dramatically since the last time they did a volunteer-based survey, they still could get useful information: If the population as a whole has gotten heavier, what is considered a "normal" weight would have changed with it, hence people with higher weight would be less self conscious about it and more willing to volunteer. This in turn would result in a higher average weight of the volunteers.
Given the conversation, this short story feels relevant:
Carry On
This story definitely belongs in a publication called "Nightmare Magazine". Great read, thanks for sharing!
I’m honestly surprised the planes aren’t equipped with some sort of scale mechanism in the wheels. Seems like they should be able to check the weight before takeoff and get all the information they need.
Yeah like maybe the landing gear of the plane could calculate the forces pushing down on it
Flying in small planes in Alaska, this is quite common. You and all your luggage stand on a large scale before the flight.