I'm generally cautious about how tracking technology can quickly erode our privacy rights, but what was described in this article sounds like a win/win
I'm generally cautious about how tracking technology can quickly erode our privacy rights, but what was described in this article sounds like a win/win
Beats the high speed pursuits that while entertaining was more dangerous and destructive than it had to be. No suspect can outrun a helicopter or radio. Hot pursuit stuff belongs in a need for...
Beats the high speed pursuits that while entertaining was more dangerous and destructive than it had to be. No suspect can outrun a helicopter or radio.
Hot pursuit stuff belongs in a need for speed game.
I mean, the cops already had the ability to put small trackers on people's cars and got slapped down by the courts. This is bigger, messier, and more obvious in its use for distinctly noticable...
I mean, the cops already had the ability to put small trackers on people's cars and got slapped down by the courts. This is bigger, messier, and more obvious in its use for distinctly noticable scenarios. This seems like an overall improvement on how it was done before.
That sounds like another reason not to give them this, no? If the idea is bad (and I think it will very much turn out to be bad), then letting them do it in a muted fashion isn't really a fix.
I mean, the cops already had the ability to put small trackers on people's cars and got slapped down by the courts.
That sounds like another reason not to give them this, no? If the idea is bad (and I think it will very much turn out to be bad), then letting them do it in a muted fashion isn't really a fix.
I think there's a big difference between putting a hidden tracker on someone's car without a warrant and using a large dart on the vehicle of someone who is currently actively fleeing the cops. Do...
I think there's a big difference between putting a hidden tracker on someone's car without a warrant and using a large dart on the vehicle of someone who is currently actively fleeing the cops. Do you not?
Sure there is. The point is not that what's happening now is the issue. The point is that policing is an inherently untrustworthy institution, and it will probably push for something problematic...
Sure there is. The point is not that what's happening now is the issue. The point is that policing is an inherently untrustworthy institution, and it will probably push for something problematic later with this as the precedent. Alternatively, these existing trackers could get used in scenarios they were not intended for, and thus get abused. That's what I'm concerned about.
What scenario are you imagining, where these are abused at an institutional level? I must be having a failure of imagination, but I can't think of how to abuse a comparatively slow sticky dart...
What scenario are you imagining, where these are abused at an institutional level? I must be having a failure of imagination, but I can't think of how to abuse a comparatively slow sticky dart fixed to the front of a car.
I'm kind of curious what actual danger you see here that is unlike what police (and civilians) can already do with the existing and widely available vehicle trackers. Especially since this is a...
I'm kind of curious what actual danger you see here that is unlike what police (and civilians) can already do with the existing and widely available vehicle trackers. Especially since this is a big cylinder attached to your car that you can hardly avoid noticing, unlike more stealthy versions.
Them being able to theoretically do it isn't the same as them having easy, automatic access to the thing. The easier it is for them to use, the more likely they use it, and I don't see that going...
Them being able to theoretically do it isn't the same as them having easy, automatic access to the thing. The easier it is for them to use, the more likely they use it, and I don't see that going anywhere nice, frankly.
Truth be told though, I don't trust the police with their own two hands, so...
Ok, but what exactly is the thing you are concerned about? Like, what is an example of a scenario that could result from this technology that would be a realistic abuse of power or invasion of...
Ok, but what exactly is the thing you are concerned about? Like, what is an example of a scenario that could result from this technology that would be a realistic abuse of power or invasion of privacy? Maybe my imagination is failing me here, but this fairly obtrusive metal can being stuck to vehicles’ bumpers seems… low risk.
This is targeted and likely to be used in a pursuit. It replaces a strategy cops would already use which is, well, chase, and potentially lose the very specific person they are already looking...
I'm generally cautious about how tracking technology can quickly erode our privacy rights.
This is targeted and likely to be used in a pursuit. It replaces a strategy cops would already use which is, well, chase, and potentially lose the very specific person they are already looking for.
I don't see a breach of privacy here either, it's highly situational, which I like.
30mph plus the velocity of the car during a chase = how long until they miss the vehicle and nail a pedestrian with those darts? Honestly, unless they've got James Bond level AI they're rigging in...
30mph plus the velocity of the car during a chase = how long until they miss the vehicle and nail a pedestrian with those darts?
Honestly, unless they've got James Bond level AI they're rigging in these things to assist with aiming, how do you even calculate additional factors when firing your grill mounted tracking gun during a pursuit?
It sounds like cool, sci-fi tech and all that but it also sounds like something from a video game which leaves me wondering what it looks like deployed in the real world. Also, can't wait for the first negligent discharge with a Ford Explorer instead of a service pistol.
https://www.newsweek.com/hundreds-are-killed-each-year-police-pursuits-many-them-bystanders-1734216 I doubt the casualty rate of pedestrians getting killed by darts is going to ever even scratch...
I doubt the casualty rate of pedestrians getting killed by darts is going to ever even scratch the levels we're seeing from the current process.
BISD announced shortly after the altercation that no students or staff were injured, but that's not always the case. Reports show that on average, more than 320 people are killed each year in high-speed police pursuits, and 27 percent of those killed are innocent bystanders.
Since 1979, more than 5,000 bystanders have been killed during police pursuits in the U.S., according to HG.org, one of the world's largest legal resource sites, which cited a study that said police pursuits are the most dangerous activities in law enforcement.
Cars are huge, with low velocity, so they still have massive momentum, and are physically large so they can destroy everything in their path when they go out of control. Bullets are small, but are dangerous because they are travelling at speeds on the order of 1500 miles per hour.
In contrast, these darts are small like bullets (ish, looks like 2-3 inch diameter ), and slow like cars. The most likely target of a stray dart is another car, which is going to have no significant effect. Even the unlikely case of a pedestrian getting hit by a stray dart is going to be far more survivable.
You're not wrong. Can't let perfect be the enemy of good. And the launcher isn't loaded with hundreds of darts so the pursuit vehicle can't just spray into the crowd.
You're not wrong. Can't let perfect be the enemy of good. And the launcher isn't loaded with hundreds of darts so the pursuit vehicle can't just spray into the crowd.
In practice they look pretty slow, light, and short range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiNPvrKRCgg. I think it would be really hard to hurt someone with this if you weren't already about to...
In practice they look pretty slow, light, and short range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiNPvrKRCgg. I think it would be really hard to hurt someone with this if you weren't already about to ram them with the car itself.
I assume the dart is some kind of sticky object that adheres to the fleeing vehicle without damaging it. If the suspect notices the cops are no longer tailing him, what's to stop him from pulling...
I assume the dart is some kind of sticky object that adheres to the fleeing vehicle without damaging it. If the suspect notices the cops are no longer tailing him, what's to stop him from pulling onto the shoulder, ripping the thing off and tossing it into the bushes before continuing with the escape?
If they come to a complete stop and take the time to survey their vehicle and extract the tracker, that gives the cops a lot of time to catch up while traveling at a safe pace.
If they come to a complete stop and take the time to survey their vehicle and extract the tracker, that gives the cops a lot of time to catch up while traveling at a safe pace.
That may well happen in a few cases, though most car thieves are not particularly likely to be thinking "I wonder if this vehicle has been tagged, I should stop and check." Even if it doesn't...
That may well happen in a few cases, though most car thieves are not particularly likely to be thinking "I wonder if this vehicle has been tagged, I should stop and check." Even if it doesn't always work, though, isn't it still a win? High-speed chases are crazy dangerous and anything that lets them not happen as much is a good thing in my books.
You can see a picture of it here: https://www.starchase.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Police-Tag.jpg There's nothing stopping them but they'd have to know it was there I guess. I wonder how loud...
Don't think there's enough information provided that I saw anyhow to determine how they're using it more specifically. There's probably ways that the suspect could remove the device to evade...
Don't think there's enough information provided that I saw anyhow to determine how they're using it more specifically. There's probably ways that the suspect could remove the device to evade police, but if the device is being used in situations where cops are already giving up pursuit now, then there aren't anymore evasions after this device than before. However it would be a huge waste of money if it just ends up being that easy to evade by stopping and removing it, since eventually anyone who expects to have encounters with police would learn about it.
In big enough police forces, they have a whole network of officers in vehicles around the city that they could potentially re-route if that type of resource allocation makes sense, so the tracking might make following directly behind unnecessary, and possibly would make it hard to use the evasion method you described if the object is sufficiently difficult to remove or destroy before nearby officers could be re-routed to a vehicle that has come to a stop.
I'm generally cautious about how tracking technology can quickly erode our privacy rights, but what was described in this article sounds like a win/win
Beats the high speed pursuits that while entertaining was more dangerous and destructive than it had to be. No suspect can outrun a helicopter or radio.
Hot pursuit stuff belongs in a need for speed game.
For now, sure. I worry how this will be used in the future, though, and I absolutely do not trust the police with it.
I mean, the cops already had the ability to put small trackers on people's cars and got slapped down by the courts. This is bigger, messier, and more obvious in its use for distinctly noticable scenarios. This seems like an overall improvement on how it was done before.
That sounds like another reason not to give them this, no? If the idea is bad (and I think it will very much turn out to be bad), then letting them do it in a muted fashion isn't really a fix.
I think there's a big difference between putting a hidden tracker on someone's car without a warrant and using a large dart on the vehicle of someone who is currently actively fleeing the cops. Do you not?
Sure there is. The point is not that what's happening now is the issue. The point is that policing is an inherently untrustworthy institution, and it will probably push for something problematic later with this as the precedent. Alternatively, these existing trackers could get used in scenarios they were not intended for, and thus get abused. That's what I'm concerned about.
What scenario are you imagining, where these are abused at an institutional level? I must be having a failure of imagination, but I can't think of how to abuse a comparatively slow sticky dart fixed to the front of a car.
I'm kind of curious what actual danger you see here that is unlike what police (and civilians) can already do with the existing and widely available vehicle trackers. Especially since this is a big cylinder attached to your car that you can hardly avoid noticing, unlike more stealthy versions.
And geofence warrants...
Them being able to theoretically do it isn't the same as them having easy, automatic access to the thing. The easier it is for them to use, the more likely they use it, and I don't see that going anywhere nice, frankly.
Truth be told though, I don't trust the police with their own two hands, so...
Ok, but what exactly is the thing you are concerned about? Like, what is an example of a scenario that could result from this technology that would be a realistic abuse of power or invasion of privacy? Maybe my imagination is failing me here, but this fairly obtrusive metal can being stuck to vehicles’ bumpers seems… low risk.
This is targeted and likely to be used in a pursuit. It replaces a strategy cops would already use which is, well, chase, and potentially lose the very specific person they are already looking for.
I don't see a breach of privacy here either, it's highly situational, which I like.
That's why the rest of the sentence you deleted from the quote said that I agree with police using this :)
I was providing my perspective on why this isn't privacy eroding compared to the 'drag net' technology usually associated privacy eroding policy.
30mph plus the velocity of the car during a chase = how long until they miss the vehicle and nail a pedestrian with those darts?
Honestly, unless they've got James Bond level AI they're rigging in these things to assist with aiming, how do you even calculate additional factors when firing your grill mounted tracking gun during a pursuit?
It sounds like cool, sci-fi tech and all that but it also sounds like something from a video game which leaves me wondering what it looks like deployed in the real world. Also, can't wait for the first negligent discharge with a Ford Explorer instead of a service pistol.
https://www.newsweek.com/hundreds-are-killed-each-year-police-pursuits-many-them-bystanders-1734216
I doubt the casualty rate of pedestrians getting killed by darts is going to ever even scratch the levels we're seeing from the current process.
Cars are huge, with low velocity, so they still have massive momentum, and are physically large so they can destroy everything in their path when they go out of control. Bullets are small, but are dangerous because they are travelling at speeds on the order of 1500 miles per hour.
In contrast, these darts are small like bullets (ish, looks like 2-3 inch diameter ), and slow like cars. The most likely target of a stray dart is another car, which is going to have no significant effect. Even the unlikely case of a pedestrian getting hit by a stray dart is going to be far more survivable.
You're not wrong. Can't let perfect be the enemy of good. And the launcher isn't loaded with hundreds of darts so the pursuit vehicle can't just spray into the crowd.
It'll feel more like a baseball than a bullet. Still probably grounds for a lawsuit and medical damages, but a lot better than death.
In practice they look pretty slow, light, and short range: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XiNPvrKRCgg. I think it would be really hard to hurt someone with this if you weren't already about to ram them with the car itself.
I assume the dart is some kind of sticky object that adheres to the fleeing vehicle without damaging it. If the suspect notices the cops are no longer tailing him, what's to stop him from pulling onto the shoulder, ripping the thing off and tossing it into the bushes before continuing with the escape?
If they come to a complete stop and take the time to survey their vehicle and extract the tracker, that gives the cops a lot of time to catch up while traveling at a safe pace.
That may well happen in a few cases, though most car thieves are not particularly likely to be thinking "I wonder if this vehicle has been tagged, I should stop and check." Even if it doesn't always work, though, isn't it still a win? High-speed chases are crazy dangerous and anything that lets them not happen as much is a good thing in my books.
You can see a picture of it here:
https://www.starchase.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/Police-Tag.jpg
There's nothing stopping them but they'd have to know it was there I guess. I wonder how loud the impact is.
Don't think there's enough information provided that I saw anyhow to determine how they're using it more specifically. There's probably ways that the suspect could remove the device to evade police, but if the device is being used in situations where cops are already giving up pursuit now, then there aren't anymore evasions after this device than before. However it would be a huge waste of money if it just ends up being that easy to evade by stopping and removing it, since eventually anyone who expects to have encounters with police would learn about it.
In big enough police forces, they have a whole network of officers in vehicles around the city that they could potentially re-route if that type of resource allocation makes sense, so the tracking might make following directly behind unnecessary, and possibly would make it hard to use the evasion method you described if the object is sufficiently difficult to remove or destroy before nearby officers could be re-routed to a vehicle that has come to a stop.