18 votes

Bojack Horseman - Season 6B - Discussion Thread

19 comments

  1. [2]
    ainar-g
    Link
    (Definitely not the best thing to watch during a bout of suicidal depression.) Very happy for Todd, Diane, and PC. Sort of disappointed that Vincent Adultman and Wanda Pierce didn't make a...

    (Definitely not the best thing to watch during a bout of suicidal depression.)

    Very happy for Todd, Diane, and PC. Sort of disappointed that Vincent Adultman and Wanda Pierce didn't make a comeback, but the rest of the crew seem to be doing well.

    S06E15, the penultimate episode, was great as they always are. Secretariat's poem was haunting as hell; I was happy they brought back the “Don't Stop Dancing” song though. The ending scene of the series was sad, but beautiful. Very mature, for lack of a better word.

    Overall, the show ended exactly when it should have, and I enjoyed the fact that they didn't try to simpsonise it.

    14 votes
    1. vivaria
      Link Parent
      (Not enough to satisfy me, but,) Wanda did have a tiny cameo in a magazine blurb in one of the episodes. "Coma survivor awakes from second coma, named president of Gronkle."

      Sort of disappointed that Vincent Adultman and Wanda Pierce didn't make a comeback

      (Not enough to satisfy me, but,) Wanda did have a tiny cameo in a magazine blurb in one of the episodes. "Coma survivor awakes from second coma, named president of Gronkle."

      4 votes
  2. [6]
    rogue_cricket
    Link
    I am going to miss this world and these characters. I would say overall I liked the ending, and as always the penultimate episode was absolutely wild. The poem was something else. Few random...

    I am going to miss this world and these characters. I would say overall I liked the ending, and as always the penultimate episode was absolutely wild. The poem was something else.

    Few random thoughts (obviously, season spoilers ahead):

    I noticed there was no F-bomb in this season.

    I like that they left Hollyhock's letter ambiguous. If they had read it, I think people would have gotten caught up in trying to dissect it and... I mean, just knowing the internet, trying to make nitpicky arguments as to why what she did was wrong and unfair to BoJack. I am glad that this cannot happen.

    I think having Pickles break up with Mister Peanutbutter offscreen through a text message is maybe THE funniest thing the show has done.

    11 votes
    1. [5]
      daturkel
      Link Parent
      I loved the way they handled Hollyhock. After the midseason finale where she's seconds from finding out this horrible story from Bojack's past, I was so anxious to see her reaction and how that...

      I loved the way they handled Hollyhock. After the midseason finale where she's seconds from finding out this horrible story from Bojack's past, I was so anxious to see her reaction and how that impacted their relationship. Bojack loves Hollyhock but, like Charlotte, I think he also sees his friendship with someone as "good" as her as some sign of goodness about himself, and that is likely going to be shattered again.

      But then, at Wesleyan, we aren't given that confrontation we expected. Hollyhock keeps what she knows from Bojack and instead of blowing up at him just slowly pulls away. Then for us to not even get to hear the letter, we're robbed even more of that resolution. Similarly we don't get closure on Paige and Max, or Gina, or tons of other people from this world, and we're left with this line that "Nothing matters at all, and everything matters so much." The specifics of Hollyhock's letter along with so many other details are irrelevant, but they reverberate in huge ways.

      8 votes
      1. [4]
        rogue_cricket
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I agree. The imagery of a leaky bucket is used throughout season 6 and it really is exactly BoJack - his self-worth and happiness is water in a leaky bucket. He tries to fill it with lots of...

        I agree. The imagery of a leaky bucket is used throughout season 6 and it really is exactly BoJack - his self-worth and happiness is water in a leaky bucket. He tries to fill it with lots of things, eventually coming to realize that what he actually needs in order to be happy is to try and be a better person. But the dysfunction at the core is still there, so even his personal work towards goodness is tainted by the kind of superficiality you describe: his relationship with Hollyhock is more about him and how he sees himself than it is about her.

        Additionally, BoJack's inability to let go of things has often hurt him. An early example is that his desire for "closure" causes his blowout fight with Herb: if BoJack hadn't gone back to try and force Herb into accepting his apology, Herb's last words to him would have been "it was nice to see you". Instead, they are "get the fuck out of my house."

        So when Hollyhock cuts him off from her and doesn't give him the opportunity to apologize or explain, it hits his weak points almost exactly. He fails to handle it and it becomes a massive catalyst for his downward spiral.

        In contrast, in the last episode we're shown that BoJack's relationship with Diane essentially comes to an end. Diane is also an important relationship for BoJack but she knows that she cannot have him in her life any more for a multitude of reasons. And BoJack lets go.

        BoJack is still unhappy, and his situation is not great: he has lost his house, his money, his legacy, and many important relationships. He's still in jail and he will have to live with the things he has done and seen forever. The bucket's still empty. But I think his acceptance in the final moments of the show signals that he might be patching the holes.

        3 votes
        1. [3]
          moocow1452
          Link Parent
          At the same time though, Bojack was still super critical of his prison troupe, and was super jazzed about the Horny Unicorn tracking well, thinking it could get into a comeback, so he hasn't...

          At the same time though, Bojack was still super critical of his prison troupe, and was super jazzed about the Horny Unicorn tracking well, thinking it could get into a comeback, so he hasn't really fixed his external validation issues. Suppose that's the point in that everyone keeps on keeping on and Bojack has a way yet to go.

          3 votes
          1. [2]
            daturkel
            Link Parent
            A part of that is the show's critique of Hollywood / showbiz and the way society often does forgive his (and others') transgressions in a way that ultimately lets him off the hook and hamstrings...

            A part of that is the show's critique of Hollywood / showbiz and the way society often does forgive his (and others') transgressions in a way that ultimately lets him off the hook and hamstrings his growth. He was on the right track when he left Hollywood to teach, and the fact that there's still this avenue back into showbiz for him and there is an appetite for the inane Horny Unicorn actually poses a huge threat to his growth that PC sees but he might not.

            2 votes
            1. moocow1452
              Link Parent
              Which is kind of why Bojack entering the online manosphere seems like a logical endpoint to one of those forks in the road, and it seemed like they were going to do more with that with the college...

              Which is kind of why Bojack entering the online manosphere seems like a logical endpoint to one of those forks in the road, and it seemed like they were going to do more with that with the college students, but I understand that it would have been a distraction from the ending.

              Says something about the show that it shows him at the same crossroads he's always been at and he doesn't commit to one way or the other.

              2 votes
  3. [5]
    Akir
    Link
    I really hate Diane in this season because she is almost exactly me. Watching her struggle with her book was like listening to my own thoughts and seeing it animated on screen. Especially with...

    I really hate Diane in this season because she is almost exactly me. Watching her struggle with her book was like listening to my own thoughts and seeing it animated on screen. Especially with what she has to say about making use of her damage.

    But I think the most powerful moment was right near the end when PC tells BoJack that she'll refer him to another agent. That whole moment had a lot of emotional growth to it. I think I really appreciate that the last episode was basically just a collection of small, mostly uninterrupted conversations between BoJack and his closest friends.

    10 votes
    1. [4]
      daturkel
      Link Parent
      That moment with PC was terrific, but the moment that hit me hardest was a few episodes earlier, the "sunk costs" speech from "Sunk Cost and All That." Bojack's in his Wesleyan office for what he...

      That moment with PC was terrific, but the moment that hit me hardest was a few episodes earlier, the "sunk costs" speech from "Sunk Cost and All That." Bojack's in his Wesleyan office for what he knows may be the last time, and only Princess Carolyn is left, helping him form a plan to confront the coming chaos.

      Bojack: This place was supposed to be a fresh start for me. Rehab was supposed to be a fresh start. No matter how many starts I get, it's always the same ending: everything falls apart and I end up alone.

      PC: I'm still here, Bojack.

      B: Why?

      PC: I don't know, I'm a fool, I guess. And you were my first client. And one time you were drunk and you smiled at me, and I said "what?" and you said "I just like being in a room with you. You make rooms good."

      B: You still do.

      PC steps in front of a whiteboard full of Bojack's failures, surrounding "Professor Horseman"

      PC: I have loved you for twenty-five years. And I never loved anyone better. That kind of love—you only get it when you're young and stupid. I'm not gonna get it again. And when I tell my daughter the story of the great love of my life, I want it to have a happy ending.

      B: Is it possible you letting me go is the happy ending?

      PC: I've gone with you this far. In for a penny, in for a pound, right? Sunk costs and all that?

      Bojack cringes

      B: Yeah. Sunk costs.

      There are several levels of brutality that make this scene so tough:

      • PC brings up the image of herself she wants her daughter to see, recalling the episode Ruthie, where she explains to Bojack how she makes up stories of her descendants talking about her one day, and when Bojack says that it isn't real, she contests that it makes her feel better. PC's "work-life balance" has always been a balance between a future life she envisions and a somewhat self-destructive present that she sees as the prerequisite to getting there, though it often makes it harder instead. And so here she's once again rationalizing how maybe helping Bojack (who's both her work, since he's her client, but also has never stopped being a part of her personal life) will enrich that future life and this time he's the one to tell her that that's the wrong move.
      • The line "I have loved you for twenty-five years" lands pretty hard on the viewer, but in the room with Bojack and PC, the love she professes to still holding for him is a foregone conclusion that's effectively ignored. Bojack's never been particularly sensitive to her feelings, and even in his seemingly enlightened state he doesn't acknowledge this confession, nor does she expect him to.
      • The above line is delivered in front of the brainstorming board of all the horrible things Bojack's done, which further drives home the contrast between her love of him and the destructive and self-destructive person he is. But looking back at it there's something even worse about the whiteboard: Bojack accidentally wrote "Professor Horseman" in Sharpie, and then he couldn't erase it. All his awful deeds around it—written in different colors—are presumably written with regular dry-erase markers. But this represents the exact opposite of the situation he finds himself in: these things from his past, things done by the version of himself he can't even recognize anymore and thought he'd left behind—those are the things that he can't erase and that he may never fully escape. And "Professor Horseman," this new idea of himself that he worked so hard to create, is on the verge of being erased completely.

      I really liked the full last season. The theme of Bojack being able to grow, but not escape who he was (and maybe still is), has been in place for the entire show and so it's fitting that it really gets driven home. I'm just reminded of a very early scene in the show where Bojack—in a somewhat self-serving attempt at confronting his old ghosts—reaches out to the ailing Herb Kazzaz to apologize to him, but Herb doesn't accept the apology, using words echoed by Diane this season that [he's] "not gonna be your prop so you can feel better."

      In fact, you'd probably sleep a lot better at night if you just admitted to yourself that you're a selfish goddamn coward who just takes whatever he wants and doesn't give a shit about who he hurts. That's you. That's BoJack Horseman.

      Bojack—and the viewer—spend the rest of the show trying to answer the question: is that who Bojack Horseman is? The finale leaves it as unclear as ever.

      I'd also recommend people read The Line and Dot's review of the last season. They put these things to words much better than I can.

      8 votes
      1. [2]
        ibis
        Link Parent
        I think we were given an answer. The single worst thing Bojack ever did was let Sarah Lynn die. He was definitely sorry for it - sorry enough to give a very convincing interview about it and win...

        Bojack—and the viewer—spend the rest of the show trying to answer the question: is that who Bojack Horseman is? The finale leaves it as unclear as ever.

        I think we were given an answer. The single worst thing Bojack ever did was let Sarah Lynn die. He was definitely sorry for it - sorry enough to give a very convincing interview about it and win sympathy. But when he 'nailed' the interview he was happy. I think the scene really showed that while Bojack has regrets and feels guilt - at the end of the day self preservation and greed will always beat those feelings.

        That's the real tragedy of Bojack, he is selfish, but it's a self destructive selfishness. In being selfish and only caring about himself, he actually just makes himself miserable. If he'd just walked away after that first interview, he would have got his happy ending and been able to hold onto everything good in his life. But he couldn't resist the temptation to use Sarah Lynn's death for his own gain, and so he lost everything.

        It was kind of the same thing with Herb - Bojack abandoned him, and in the end, Bojack was the one who suffered the most from that decision. Herb was fine, he went on to have a somewhat satisfying life. But Bojack was the one who never moved on.

        4 votes
        1. daturkel
          Link Parent
          He's definitely his own worst enemy, and he is a he cause of all his problems—as everyone always has to tell him. But I'm hesitant to say that his decision to go back for the second interview is...

          He's definitely his own worst enemy, and he is a he cause of all his problems—as everyone always has to tell him. But I'm hesitant to say that his decision to go back for the second interview is the final word on who he is at the end of the show though. That moment was kind of the same idea as him being overbearing with Hollyhock at Wesleyan—he's so excited about the idea of himself as a good person that he overdoes it and ends up in the wrong again. But I don't think we could say he's totally back to being his old bad self.

      2. Adys
        Link Parent
        Holy crap. And yes they are, as we see some of them be wiped when they find out about Sarah Lynn

        Bojack accidentally wrote "Professor Horseman" in Sharpie, and then he couldn't erase it. All his awful deeds around it—written in different colors—are presumably written with regular dry-erase markers.

        Holy crap. And yes they are, as we see some of them be wiped when they find out about Sarah Lynn

        1 vote
  4. [2]
    moocow1452
    Link
    Between The Good Place and this, I really should have emotionally paced myself better. Lot to take in, lot to leave behind, and not much longer for us to get there.

    Between The Good Place and this, I really should have emotionally paced myself better. Lot to take in, lot to leave behind, and not much longer for us to get there.

    6 votes
    1. mundane_and_naive
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      It's funny that the two shows' endings happened back to back as I think they work pretty well as companion pieces. Then Good Place finale used the afterlife to show us what it's like if you get to...

      It's funny that the two shows' endings happened back to back as I think they work pretty well as companion pieces. Then Good Place finale used the afterlife to show us what it's like if you get to live your lives to the fullest and then be able to die on your own terms. Bojack also got to go to a metaphorical afterlife of sort, but here everyone were overwhelmed with sorrows and regrets, and their final moments weren't at all peaceful but extremely horrifying. But instead of stopping right there, Bojack didn't die and instead the show ends with him kept on living.

      But while the two endings approached deaths from opposite angles, they both advocated for the same lesson, that if you've been a bad person, you have to do it again, only try to be better next time. Bojack Horseman is what The Good Place would have been like if done from Brent's perspective.

      Also mildly interesting that the imagery for death that The Good Place chose was a wave returning to the sea and in Bojack Horseman, death is represented as swarming black tar, i.e. "evil waves", so to speak.

      Both shows explored complex moral dilemmas under the guise of silly humor and both reached pretty much the same conclusion. I swear, these writers could become best friends if they aren't already.

      4 votes
  5. weystrom
    Link
    I really liked the way that they've presented Diane's internal monologue and her process of settling with the idea that damage might be just damage. I'm going to miss the series, hopefully we'll...

    I really liked the way that they've presented Diane's internal monologue and her process of settling with the idea that damage might be just damage.

    I'm going to miss the series, hopefully we'll get some more adult animation from Netflix in the near future.

    4 votes
  6. [2]
    Douglas
    Link
    Everyone's pretty much said my thoughts already... ...except this one: I'm gonna miss Lisa Hanawalt's art. I really hope someone else picks up Tuca & Bertie (WHY was that canceled!?). I subscribe...

    Everyone's pretty much said my thoughts already...

    ...except this one: I'm gonna miss Lisa Hanawalt's art. I really hope someone else picks up Tuca & Bertie (WHY was that canceled!?). I subscribe to The Nib and she did the cover for this month on Animals and it was a bit of a gut punch reminding me her art's not gonna be in a show anymore.

    3 votes
    1. moocow1452
      Link Parent
      I really think Tuca and Bertie could cut it as a comic if Netflix decided to keep it in licensing hell. I'd pick it up anyway.

      I really think Tuca and Bertie could cut it as a comic if Netflix decided to keep it in licensing hell. I'd pick it up anyway.

      4 votes
  7. moocow1452
    Link
    If the show had another few episodes, or an epilogue, I wonder if Bojack would have hit the podcast shock jock circuit, since it seemed that was where he was headed to with the college...

    If the show had another few episodes, or an epilogue, I wonder if Bojack would have hit the podcast shock jock circuit, since it seemed that was where he was headed to with the college syncophants, or would "Bojack: Unwoke and Unfiltered" already have been covered with the Bojack Horseman show.

    1 vote