10 votes

Suggestions for non-fiction books about the decay and decline of human civilisation?

Need suggestions on books on the topic of decay/decline/end of human civilisation

I have read Richard Heinberg's End of Growth

edit: no fiction please

26 comments

  1. [15]
    mrbig
    Link
    Well I don’t think humankind is decaying at all. So here’s a book that basically says the opposite of what you’re looking for: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature

    Well I don’t think humankind is decaying at all. So here’s a book that basically says the opposite of what you’re looking for: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Better_Angels_of_Our_Nature

    8 votes
    1. [14]
      cpriest
      Link Parent
      arent we running out of cheap and plentiful energy and other resources and isnt the arctic albedo effect a huge destabilising factor?

      arent we running out of cheap and plentiful energy and other resources and isnt the arctic albedo effect a huge destabilising factor?

      1 vote
      1. [13]
        unknown user
        Link Parent
        Anthropogenic climate change is going to make the Earth significantly less habitable for humans and the rest of the species on this planet, yes.

        Anthropogenic climate change is going to make the Earth significantly less habitable for humans and the rest of the species on this planet, yes.

        3 votes
        1. [12]
          cpriest
          Link Parent
          how long until catastrophic breakdown of organised society?

          how long until catastrophic breakdown of organised society?

          1. [11]
            mrbig
            Link Parent
            We don’t even know if that will happen in the way you describe.

            We don’t even know if that will happen in the way you describe.

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              BuckeyeSundae
              Link Parent
              Sorry, this chain made me cynical and sad about political discussion on this forum. To recap: Just because human society has perhaps, on the whole, improved doesn't mean that we don't have...

              Sorry, this chain made me cynical and sad about political discussion on this forum.

              To recap:

              1. Just because human society has perhaps, on the whole, improved doesn't mean that we don't have significant problems we have to address yet right on our collective doorstep. To suggest that saying we're the best we've ever been means we have nothing left to achieve misinterprets Pinker's argument (and this is coming from someone who doesn't really find Pinker's claims in this book particularly compelling).
              2. How human society reacts, locally and globally, to these looming issues is far from predetermined, and assuming that it will necessarily lead to chaos and self-disillusion is both defeatist and counterproductive to waht I assume CPriest's goals are (that is, trying to increase people's desire to address human driven global warming).
              3. The entire premise of this thread, non-fiction books about Human civilization and decay must in some sense be fanciful because of the fact that human civilization, as a whole, has not yet in fact decayed or declined. The Modern Era(TM) is in a state of flux, and so it may seem like "decay" if you expect the world to always stay the same no matter what, but it doesn't so ...
              4. the only books that can be recommended are not worth reading (i.e., probably quite questionable) or are histories of periods so long ago that the record supporting their narratives is sorely under-resourced and leaves far too much unknown and unaddressed to be particular useful for what I can infer is the OP's interest here.

              The sorry was to you because you tried to offer some challenge to the OP. Most of this is in response to the OP.

              11 votes
              1. mrbig
                Link Parent
                That’s okay. I’m coming to terms with the fact that most of our discussions on subjects like society and politics will eventually end in unjustified pessimism. I do not appreciate a lack of...

                That’s okay. I’m coming to terms with the fact that most of our discussions on subjects like society and politics will eventually end in unjustified pessimism.

                I do not appreciate a lack of nuance. The idea that we are doomed to failure seems like a given to many, but not for me.

                4 votes
            2. [6]
              precise
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              You are correct that we don't know for sure what will happen or how, in response to anthropogenic climate change. I want to take a moment and paint a picture on how "catastrophic breakdown of...

              You are correct that we don't know for sure what will happen or how, in response to anthropogenic climate change. I want to take a moment and paint a picture on how "catastrophic breakdown of organized society" could happen, and how real of a possibility it is. So how could this happen? Well we need to look at the various effects global mean temperature increase will have, and their secondary consequences therein.

              Crop Failure

              As mean temperatures increase, habitable zones for crops will shift or disappear. Staple crops that have grown in areas for centuries will become inviable.

              Sea Level Rise

              Global ice reserves, ice caps, glaciers and polar ice are melting at an increasing rate. The total sea level rise is still heavily debated in the scientific community, but to get an idea of what varying amounts of sea level rise would look like you can use this tool from NOAA. According to the United Nation’s Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, sea levels will at the least rise by 0.29m and at most 1.1m. Many in the scientific community see this as a conservative estimate, reports from NOAA and The National Academy of Sciences suggest more drastic increases. Another report from NOAA predicts that there will be intense variation in sea level rise based on location, as much as 30%, based on various factors. OK, the oceans are rising, so what? Well here's what:

              Increase in Weather Extremes

              When talking about Climate Change, we discuss increases in mean temperatures to the tenth decimal. Tiny increases in temperature will cause massive impact, but in some areas temperatures will increase so much as to make them uninhabitable for humans and other wildlife. In others, the magnitude and frequency of severe weather including hail, tornadoes and tropical storms will all increase.

              Connecting the Dots

              Honestly, I can see any one of the several direct impacts of anthropological climate change causing major societal disorder, economic and governmental collapse, and geopolitical instability.

              • Massive refugee crises lead to strained tension already inflamed by the recent rise of populist, nationalist regimes.
              • Depletion of food resources during crop failure will lead to starvation, and geopolitical strife. World trade between major food producers will become ever more important in an increasingly distant economic community. Uprisings will be common in less-than-stable nations, this predicates a possible return to colonialist ambitions in the search for decreasing resources.
              • In a similar vein, when the aforementioned island nations are completely submerged, their sovereignty is dissolved according to international law. The resources remaining will be prime for the taking, and world powers will all want their piece.
              • We are already seeing geopolitical saber rattling regarding new resources opening up in the arctic circle. Areas that were previously encased in ice have opened up, offering new shipping routes and access to oil and natural gas.

              Conclusion

              There are a lot of other direct, secondary and indirect effects of anthropogenic climate change I haven't listed here. These are just the big ones that come to mind right now. As I stated before, in my personal opinion I believe climate change will create catastrophes that test the endurance of humanity as it is now. We must take immediate, drastic action to avoid such results. Some experts say that some of this is now unavoidable, I tend to agree.

              Sorry @cpriest, I kind of hijacked this thread, hope you don't mind. I'm super passionate about this stuff and felt the need to contribute a bit. I tried not to write an entire book, but if I did, I'd recommend it in your thread.

              9 votes
              1. [3]
                mrbig
                Link Parent
                It’ll be a shitstorm, no question about it. But maybe, just maybe, our governments and international organizations will evolve in the meantime, creating a political and social structure capable of...

                It’ll be a shitstorm, no question about it. But maybe, just maybe, our governments and international organizations will evolve in the meantime, creating a political and social structure capable of maintaining order and minimizing the impact of the tragedy.

                I have no reason to think we won’t increase the scope of our collective empathy and perfect our institutions for the better in next 100 years. That’s what we’ve been doing for at least two centuries.

                1 vote
                1. [2]
                  precise
                  Link Parent
                  The implied problem is that we need to evolve now, for some it is already too late. People are already being displaced, millions of climate refugees have been created, islands destroyed. When are...

                  The implied problem is that we need to evolve now, for some it is already too late. People are already being displaced, millions of climate refugees have been created, islands destroyed. When are we to act? When the comfortable, western world is finally being impacted on the same scale? Not only will that be entirely too late, it will be irreversible. Can you show me where there has been a concerted, effective international effort to stem the causes of climate change? I think of the IPCC, the cries of scientists, it's just being ignored seemingly. I think of the Paris Accords and how America has pulled out and how it most likely will not create the drastic change needed.

                  4 votes
                  1. mrbig
                    (edited )
                    Link Parent
                    Change is frequently accompanied by apparent step backs. Napoleon became emperor after the French Revolution. The Brazilian Military Dictatorship followed the progressive João Goulart. Salvador...

                    Change is frequently accompanied by apparent step backs. Napoleon became emperor after the French Revolution. The Brazilian Military Dictatorship followed the progressive João Goulart. Salvador Allende had the same fate in Chile. The atrocities of the Nazi rule were one the main motivations for the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

                    One should be cautious to extrapolate from their own personal impressions to ascertain what’s going to happen next, because you may be drawing conclusions from a very limited time period.

                    Yes, everything can go to shit, but that’s not guaranteed (and in the case of global warming I’m not talking about avoiding it, but mitigating its social effects. I think you misinterpreted that aspect of my previous comment).

                    From a historical standpoint, I believe humankind will probably improve in the next 100 years, both socially and politically. This is not to say that we are fine and dandy, but Universal Human Rights do exist. In most civilized world, democracy replaced absolutism, slavery is illegal, children are educated instead of explored for labor, women have more freedom than 50 years ago and being gay is not a death sentence. We also have plumbing, antibiotics, and modern medicine.

                    We must improve these in a number of ways, but we are doing a bunch of things better and it is quite possible that we’ll continue to do so.

                    5 votes
              2. [2]
                cpriest
                Link Parent
                Yes, I don't know the correct terminology but there are some tipping points and we are going to cross them in the near future. So all I was asking was how much time do we have left until...

                Yes, I don't know the correct terminology but there are some tipping points and we are going to cross them in the near future.

                So all I was asking was how much time do we have left until catastrophic crop failure or until the arctic is ice free in summers and and the climate change equation is taken out of our hands

            3. [2]
              cpriest
              Link Parent
              we are running out of resources, society is gonna break down sooner or later

              we are running out of resources, society is gonna break down sooner or later

              1. mrbig
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                That is just an assumption...

                That is just an assumption...

                2 votes
  2. [2]
    kfwyre
    Link
    I recently read Emily St. John Mandel's Station Eleven which is about a flu outbreak that wipes out most of earth's population. I don't know if it would fit what you're looking for though, as it's...

    I recently read Emily St. John Mandel's Station Eleven which is about a flu outbreak that wipes out most of earth's population. I don't know if it would fit what you're looking for though, as it's far more character-focused than big picture-focused. I went into it wanting to read a tale about a pandemic but instead got something quite different. It was still good, mind you, but it didn't quite scratch the exact itch I wanted it to.

    Similarly, Jose Saramago's Blindness is a compelling (and controversial) read about the breakdown of society in a city where everyone has suddenly gone blind. I read it quite a while ago, so it's hard to know what I'd think of it now, but at the time I read it I couldn't put it down. It's again, less big-picture focused than you might be wanting, but I mention it along with Station Eleven just in case either one sounds interesting to you.

    6 votes
    1. cpriest
      Link Parent
      thanks for the reply. have edited the post.

      thanks for the reply. have edited the post.

      1 vote
  3. Eric_the_Cerise
    Link
    Most (All?) comments seem to be focused on the current human civilization. There are any number of well-documented historical examples of the decline and decay of civilizations, Rome being perhaps...

    Most (All?) comments seem to be focused on the current human civilization. There are any number of well-documented historical examples of the decline and decay of civilizations, Rome being perhaps the prime example, but also Egypt, the Mayans, the Aztecs, the Minoans, etc.

    The interconnectedness and global nature of modern civilization may be unprecedented (at least in degree), but our current predicament(s) are not that different from many historic superpowers.

    All that said, my favorite du jour is 1177 B.C.: The Year Civilization Collapsed, by Eric Cline

    Here's a youtube-lecture version of the book, if you prefer ... https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=bRcu-ysocX4

    5 votes
  4. [3]
    Comment deleted by author
    Link
    1. [2]
      cpriest
      Link Parent
      is this guy credible? read some reviews where he is portrayed as a lunatic

      is this guy credible? read some reviews where he is portrayed as a lunatic

      5 votes
      1. [2]
        Comment deleted by author
        Link Parent
        1. cpriest
          Link Parent
          conclusion? that we are the virus or our system capitalism is to blame?

          conclusion? that we are the virus or our system capitalism is to blame?

  5. ohyran
    Link
    Jared Diamons set of books on the subject may be right up your alley

    Jared Diamons set of books on the subject may be right up your alley

  6. [3]
    archevel
    Link
    One of these days I'm going to set aside some time to read Oswald Spengler's "The Decline of the West". From what I've read about it it seems like a fascinating book at least....

    One of these days I'm going to set aside some time to read Oswald Spengler's "The Decline of the West". From what I've read about it it seems like a fascinating book at least.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Decline_of_the_West

    1. [2]
      cpriest
      Link Parent
      can i just jump in or do i need to have some background in philosophy or some other stuff?

      can i just jump in or do i need to have some background in philosophy or some other stuff?

      1. archevel
        Link Parent
        I think you can just jump in. The book is 100+ years old so the language might be a bit archaic and some references/context that would be obvious for someone of that time may be hard to get.

        I think you can just jump in. The book is 100+ years old so the language might be a bit archaic and some references/context that would be obvious for someone of that time may be hard to get.

  7. rkallos
    Link
    I'm partway through The Ecotechnic Future, and I'm enjoying it. I appreciate how the author tries to study human societies real and imagined through an ecological lens, referring to concepts like...

    I'm partway through The Ecotechnic Future, and I'm enjoying it.

    I appreciate how the author tries to study human societies real and imagined through an ecological lens, referring to concepts like overshoot, succession, seres and climax communities.