precise's recent activity

  1. Comment on Inside the online movement to end work in ~life

    precise
    Link Parent
    I've avoided the subreddit simply because I avoid populist spaces in general, but I've heard multiple times that it is being co-opted which is to be expected with populist movements. The Kelloggs...

    I've avoided the subreddit simply because I avoid populist spaces in general, but I've heard multiple times that it is being co-opted which is to be expected with populist movements.

    The Kelloggs Strike response very much reminded me of the Net Neutrality movement way back when. It was another populist movement swept up by corporate interests; in reality net neutrality benefited the platforms that enabled the populist rhetoric. That Kelloggs didn't react as the FCC did with corrupt erasure of outcry and dereliction of duty is simply a matter of the times I think.

    7 votes
  2. Comment on Christmas thread in ~talk

    precise
    Link Parent
    Yeah, I recently went to see family who are of questionable vaccination status. Luckily got my hands on some rapid tests so I tested this morning, and so far so good. I've got some folks I live...

    Yeah, I recently went to see family who are of questionable vaccination status. Luckily got my hands on some rapid tests so I tested this morning, and so far so good. I've got some folks I live with that are doing stuff here that will be fun, but I definitely have lost the Christmas spirit as time has gone on.

    7 votes
  3. Christmas thread

    Thought I'd post a general conversation thread for folks who might not be spending time with family or friends on Christmas. What are you doing on your own for Christmas, or what are you missing...

    Thought I'd post a general conversation thread for folks who might not be spending time with family or friends on Christmas. What are you doing on your own for Christmas, or what are you missing out on?

    23 votes
  4. Comment on The mythlogy of work and other thoughts on the growing anti-work movement in ~misc

    precise
    Link Parent
    Thanks for taking the time to break that down, and I'm going to do some reading on other historical economic forms.

    Thanks for taking the time to break that down, and I'm going to do some reading on other historical economic forms.

    3 votes
  5. Comment on The mythlogy of work and other thoughts on the growing anti-work movement in ~misc

    precise
    Link Parent
    I've defined the anti-work movement's take on work a few times now. If you're looking for concrete in the abstract of philosophy, politic, and economics you're not going to find much. Anti-work...

    I've defined the anti-work movement's take on work a few times now. If you're looking for concrete in the abstract of philosophy, politic, and economics you're not going to find much. Anti-work calls for the abolition of all work. Work in Capitalism exists in an exploitative, oppressive system. I'm not sure I can break it down much more than that. I feel you're being overly simplistic and somewhat diminutive when you assert that anti-work thought is just against "having jobs" after I've explained in several comments, in detail, the ideals of anti-work. I am just repeating myself at this point so I'll end it here. If you have any more questions about anti-work concepts, the /r/antiwork library has a ton of reading materials to indulge. :)

    6 votes
  6. Comment on The mythlogy of work and other thoughts on the growing anti-work movement in ~misc

    precise
    Link Parent
    When I speak of feudalism, I speak of the Marxian definition. Generally, "the power of the ruling class (the aristocracy) in their control of arable land, leading to a class society based upon the...

    When I speak of feudalism, I speak of the Marxian definition. Generally, "the power of the ruling class (the aristocracy) in their control of arable land, leading to a class society based upon the exploitation of the peasants who farm these lands, typically under serfdom and principally by means of labour, produce and money rents." Marx drew these conclusions from European style feudalism, I'm not sure if he would be one to specify though. I'm not sure the bearing of your line of questioning? Is this significant?

    As for the earlier system, I refer to the hunter-gatherer society prior to the further development of the division of labor and the creation of surplus value. There's a lot more than just feudalism and hunter-gather, but from a Marxist-Leninist perspective any market that accommodates the creation of surplus value (post hunter-gather) is some form of feudalism or another.

    2 votes
  7. Comment on The mythlogy of work and other thoughts on the growing anti-work movement in ~misc

    precise
    Link Parent
    I spoke about the branding issues in another comment and I agree, jargon can be detrimental. :) So, if you apply the prior mentioned definition, we can infer that the anti-work movement objects to...

    I spoke about the branding issues in another comment and I agree, jargon can be detrimental. :) So, if you apply the prior mentioned definition, we can infer that the anti-work movement objects to jobs that are structured under Capitalism and the state. You don't need either of those to bake a pie or sell it. Production doesn't end when work (according to this definition) ends. Perhaps I'm not understanding your question or hangup? Addressing the last part, being paid doesn't mean Capitalism, selling or trading your pie doesn't mean Capitalism. So we can do all of that while abolishing domineering structures with Capitalism.

    4 votes
  8. Comment on The mythlogy of work and other thoughts on the growing anti-work movement in ~misc

    precise
    Link Parent
    Many, many people will do as you say. :) We can't help people who don't read past the headlines, but some will read the comment. Branding is important, and we (Leftists) need to embrace eloquent...

    Many, many people will do as you say. :) We can't help people who don't read past the headlines, but some will read the comment. Branding is important, and we (Leftists) need to embrace eloquent messaging, but Leftist thought is also deeply rooted, storied and heavily debated. Getting too specific risks being secular and segmenting a big-tent movement like this one.

    We can only hope that folks like @lou outnumber the others :).

    Edit: @lou, how would you change the messaging of the anti-work movement?

    6 votes
  9. Comment on The mythlogy of work and other thoughts on the growing anti-work movement in ~misc

    precise
    Link Parent
    I think you're framing your initial premise with the capitalist concept of work. Leftists argue that without a dominating structure for work to form around, the nature of work is starkly...

    I think you're framing your initial premise with the capitalist concept of work. Leftists argue that without a dominating structure for work to form around, the nature of work is starkly different. Farming, "women's work", and staples of pre-industrial and pre-capitalist societies don't conform to the work that anti-work opposes.

    Sure there was feudalism and other societal or market forms that society functioned on, but before that, where were the bosses? The managers? The whip crackers? Anti-work does not mean being anti-effort, idleness isn't bad, but anti-work prescribes a life that isn't subordinated to wage slavery in order to simply survive.

    We can differentiate between paid vs unpaid labor until we are blue in the face. The distinction is not the pay, it is the form of work. All of your (valid in their own frame) anecdotes are rooted from a Capitalist perspective in a Capitalist system. Anti-work is anti-capitalist and seeks to abandon this framework which is exploitative and oppressive. Anti-capitalism and much of Leftist thought in general is binary, because the current system would not permit its implementation. Revolutionary politics tends to be absolute.

    As I stated in another comment, from /r/antiwork's FAQ:

    "If you define "work" as any activity or purposeful intent towards some goal, then sure. That's not how we define it though. We're not against effort, labor, or being productive. We're against jobs as they are structured under capitalism and the state: Against exploitative economic relations, against hierarchical social relations at the workplace."

    8 votes
  10. Comment on What have you been listening to this week? in ~music

    precise
    Link Parent
    If your Christmas music isn't MCR on loop you're missing out. ;)

    If your Christmas music isn't MCR on loop you're missing out. ;)

    2 votes
  11. Comment on What have you been listening to this week? in ~music

    precise
    Link
    I've been listening to some weird stuff lately. Greatest hits include, playlist to study like a medieval philosopher having the truth revealed by divine grace, playlist to study like darwin...
    1 vote
  12. Comment on The mythlogy of work and other thoughts on the growing anti-work movement in ~misc

    precise
    Link Parent
    I see your point about the functioning of society, and I don't disagree entirely. That said, the /r/antiwork wiki's frequently asked questions section offers the following in relation to work and...
    • Exemplary

    I see your point about the functioning of society, and I don't disagree entirely. That said, the /r/antiwork wiki's frequently asked questions section offers the following in relation to work and societal function:

    "If you define "work" as any activity or purposeful intent towards some goal, then sure. That's not how we define it though. We're not against effort, labor, or being productive. We're against jobs as they are structured under capitalism and the state: Against exploitative economic relations, against hierarchical social relations at the workplace.".

    Granted, this is very broad and doesn't explicitly address the points you made about the "undesirable" work (which I think is a valid criticism), and I'd like to dive deeper into anti-work theory about this because it does address this. Bob Black argues in his essay, The Abolition of Work,

    "Third — other things being equal — some things that are unsatisfying if done by yourself or in unpleasant surroundings or at the orders of an overlord are enjoyable, at least for a while, if these circumstances are changed. This is probably true, to some extent, of all work. People deploy their otherwise wasted ingenuity to make a game of the least inviting drudge-jobs as best they can. Activities that appeal to some people don’t always appeal to all others, but everyone at least potentially has a variety of interests and an interest in variety. As the saying goes, “anything once.” Fourier was the master at speculating how aberrant and perverse penchants could be put to use in post-civilized society, what he called Harmony..." "...Small children who notoriously relish wallowing in filth could be organized in “Little Hordes” to clean toilets and empty the garbage, with medals awarded to the outstanding. I am not arguing for these precise examples but for the underlying principle, which I think makes perfect sense as one dimension of an overall revolutionary transformation. Bear in mind that we don’t have to take today’s work just as we find it and match it up with the proper people, some of whom would have to be perverse indeed. If technology has a role in all this it is less to automate work out of existence than to open up new realms for re/creation."

    From the positions of individualist anarchism and post-Situationist theory, Black posits that when we abandon the capitalist model of work, the nature of work will change. The nature of work changing removes the dominating features found in capitalist modes of production, and can transform work into what Black would call a "ludic conviviality, commensality".

    A more digestible explanation of this is as follows:

    "A time-and-motion engineer watching a bear near a berry patch would not know when to punch his clock. Does the bear start working when he walks to the berry patch, when he picks the berry, when he opens his jaws? If the engineer has half a brain he might say the bear makes no distinction between work and play. If the engineer has an imagination he might say that the bear experiences joy from the moment the berries turn deep red, and that none of the bear’s motions are work."
    -- Fredy Perlman

    Furthermore, in Black's essay For a World Absolutely Other:

    "When asked, “But if we destroy work, how will we eat?”, all one can say is, “We will figure that out as we go along.” And, of course, that is not satisfying for those who want easy answers. But if our desire is to make our lives our own, and if this requires a world that is absolutely other than the social world in which we live, we cannot expect to have the words for that world. Where would we find them here, where even the primitivists must resort to economic comparisons and an accounting of hours of work to valorize their utopia? As we destroy the old world and experiment with new ways to live, the words will come, if they are desired. Their shadows are sometimes visible in poetry, but if we realize our lives poetically, will we even still desire the words?"

    This is a common retort in revolutionary politics, it's nearly impossible to project how society will form around a system we have yet to see implemented. That said, I don't agree with Black's assertions here. I believe that societal infrastructure and systems are needed to keep some basic utilities functioning. I also believe that we need to take all of those roles out of the hands of capital, and place it into the hands of the people. Hand-in-hand, I also think that in an effort to address climate change, this socialist state could whittle away at unnecessary work. This is addressed in the aptly named essay, On the Phenomenon of Bullshit Jobs by David Graeber.

    From a socialist, anti-work perspective we can transform the manner of work in the same vein as Black, but also incorporate a civic duty element into the societal structure. More practically, we can offer more pay, better benefits, and more time off.

    16 votes
  13. Comment on The mythlogy of work and other thoughts on the growing anti-work movement in ~misc

    precise
    Link
    The article I linked is an excerpt from CrimethInc.'s Work, a "376-page analysis of contemporary capitalism." This is a good synopsis of anti-work thought from the Anarchist, anti-Capitalist...

    The article I linked is an excerpt from CrimethInc.'s Work, a "376-page analysis of contemporary capitalism." This is a good synopsis of anti-work thought from the Anarchist, anti-Capitalist perspective, and strives to refute the most common responses from reactionaries. Furthermore, it is relatable for the average wage laborer; the mentioned myths are persistent.

    Anti-work ideas (and Leftist ideas in general) are experiencing a renaissance; social media is enabling workers to share in common struggles. The subreddit /r/antiwork is at the center of this revival, and has accumulated over 1.2 million subscribers. "Inhabit: Territories" recently published a piece that does a decent job explaining how /r/antiwork has enabled a swelling community to lament and search for answers and action in response to their disadvantaged position. The subreddit (along with the movement in general) has also received coverage from mainstream outlets including Business Insider and Slate. Most recently, the anti-work movement has received coverage for allegedly accessing or hacking internet exposed receipt printers to print anti-work propaganda.

    The concept of anti-work is a more "radical" extension of the "Great Resignation", both of which emerged through the catalyst of the COVID-19 pandemic. According to the anti-work crowd, the emergence of anti-work ideas has been a long time coming. Proponents for direct action (or inaction) against the capitalist class point to decades of increasing income inequality, wage stagnation, union busting, and other maladies of the wage economy.

    I'm of the opinion that the anti-work movement will continue to grow, even as wages "correct". Workers saw the true possibility an unburdened life offers, and they've found ways to preserve that position. It just so happens that Capitalism robs people of this. I don't agree with all tenants of the anti-work movement. It's a big-tent anti-Capitalist movement so Socialists and Communists are more than welcome, but the Anarchist roots do clash with other Leftist thought. I personally hope that this movement continues beyond the digital realm and inflicts real change rather than reformism and "progressive improvements" that only serve to strengthen the capitalist class.

    What are your thoughts on the anti-work movement?

    11 votes
  14. Comment on How to scrub your online footprint? in ~tech

    precise
    Link
    I don't mean to necropost, but I had this bookmarked because I meant to reply. Nobody seems to have mentioned Michael Bazzell of Intel Techniques yet. He has published tons of online resources,...

    I don't mean to necropost, but I had this bookmarked because I meant to reply. Nobody seems to have mentioned Michael Bazzell of Intel Techniques yet. He has published tons of online resources, guides and books to assist in stuff like this. He is very much considered an expert in the field of online investigations so he would know where to find stuff, and how to get rid of it.
    https://inteltechniques.com/links.html

    3 votes
  15. Comment on <deleted topic> in ~news

    precise
    Link Parent
    Kyle Rittenhouse went to a charged, political demonstration. He claims he was there to protect property, yet nobody asked him to. As someone who had their life threatened by rifle wielding...

    Kyle Rittenhouse went to a charged, political demonstration. He claims he was there to protect property, yet nobody asked him to. As someone who had their life threatened by rifle wielding domestic terrorists while protesting last summer, I can say I'm pretty certain his intention was to intimidate people of other political leanings. Those people I encountered were there to protect property too, but it didn't stop them from sending us death threats, pointing their weapons at us and trying to start fights. All the while, we were entirely peaceful, actively deescalated any confrontation, and followed all the rules. It has been the modus operandi of right wing "activists" (read: terrorists) for years: instigate, harm, blame, discredit.

    18 votes
  16. Comment on Pipeline company paid Minnesota police for arresting and surveilling protesters in ~enviro

    precise
    Link
    I really wish there was more outcry about this outside of the environmental community. This foreign corporation paid American law enforcement $2.4m to protect their private interests, to protect...

    I really wish there was more outcry about this outside of the environmental community. This foreign corporation paid American law enforcement $2.4m to protect their private interests, to protect profits, to violate indigenous sovereignty, to conduct surveillance on indigenous people and allies, and to arrest protestors. This is end-stage capitalism if I've ever seen it.

    The shitty thing is they got what they wanted, the war isn't over but they won the battle. local, state and federal government officials abandoned the native tribes and people of so-called Minnesota in the name of corporate profits, under the guise of international cooperation. I now fear for the future of Enbridge Line 5 as well.

    No matter your cause or position on the issue, that a corporation can pay for state violence against their detractors is absolutely unacceptable.

    6 votes
  17. Comment on What’s driving the huge US rent spike? in ~finance

    precise
    Link Parent
    While it's good advice, how long must we rely on reformism to inch our way to satisfactory conditions for everyone? For as long as there has been a capitalist status quo, it has been politically...

    While it's good advice, how long must we rely on reformism to inch our way to satisfactory conditions for everyone? For as long as there has been a capitalist status quo, it has been politically impossible to change. As long as it has been impossible, reformism has been used to change the system. So how long should we fight for milquetoast reforms while the workers suffer?

    4 votes
  18. Comment on Company that routes SMS for all major US carriers was hacked for five years in ~tech

    precise
    Link
    This is a great reason/reminder to use E2EE communications like Signal. SMS at the end of the day is just internet packets, lots of people use VPNs to protect their internet traffic, might as well...

    This is a great reason/reminder to use E2EE communications like Signal. SMS at the end of the day is just internet packets, lots of people use VPNs to protect their internet traffic, might as well take similar precautions with text messages.

    I'm really curious to see who is behind this though, I would not be surprised if this ends up being a state-sponsored compromise. I am suspicious of the timing of this release though, right after Facebook comes under fire (again) and takes over the headlines. I can understand wanting to time it from a PR standpoint, but if text messages and call records have been compromised that is huge.

    I'd argue it's more substantial than what Facebook has been doing though. Text messages and call records have a reasonable expectation of privacy. Cellular communications really should be treated as public utilities given the ubiquitous nature and necessity of life they now engender.

    Yet here we are. Evilcorp runs our necessary infrastructure and will probably get off with a slap on the wrist as this seems to slip through the headlines and by the public eye.

    10 votes