Deborah Hastings Just why do people do things like this? I simply can't wrap my head around this. The school operated for more than 25 years and nobody knew till some kid drinks a cleaning...
Deborah Hastings
The now-defunct Miracle Meadows School in rural West Virginia was sued by former students who claimed they were subjected to widespread abuse.
Attorneys alleged hundreds of students were subjected to “horrifying and unspeakable forms of sexual, physical and psychological mistreatment” at the boarding school in the Appalachian community of Salem.
The school offered treatment for at-risk children aged 7 to 17, and for those with learning disabilities. It operated from 1987 to 2014, when it was closed by the state.
The school operated as a ministry of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, and according to the lawsuit, investigators began examining the facility after a student drank a cleaning product and was taken to a hospital....While being treated, she begged the medical staff for help, prompting authorities to investigate her claims.
“The abuses suffered by these children wouldn’t be believed in a Stephen King novel,” said attorney Jesse Forbes in a statement announcing the settlement.
Just why do people do things like this? I simply can't wrap my head around this. The school operated for more than 25 years and nobody knew till some kid drinks a cleaning product...come on.
I used to think that too. I've come to believe otherwise. Religion can be, has been, and is being used to rationalize horrible things and subjugate others, but (and I hate to use this trope) it's...
I used to think that too. I've come to believe otherwise. Religion can be, has been, and is being used to rationalize horrible things and subjugate others, but (and I hate to use this trope) it's not all religion. I'd like to believe a vast majority of religious folks quietly practice amongst themselves and do not project their values onto others. We always hear about the domineering minority that seeks to craft the world to their ideals, and because that's all we hear about we assume that's all there is to it. It's confirmation bias.
I was raised Catholic -- I now have no religion; I use science and experience as my guides. That said, I disagree that religion is a stain on humanity. Religious followers hold beliefs for a wide variety of reasons, but I've come to realize there's a nearly universal rationale amongst believers of all stripes: it brings inner-peace. Religious folks find stability in their beliefs which is especially important in this unstable world.
I have no problem with people privately practicing their beliefs, and I don't think it's okay to call some folks mental refuge a stain on humanity.
I hate to say it but, that's pretty funny coming from an ex Catholic. You're talking about an organization that dedicates millions to a legal budget thats sole purpose is keeping rapists out of...
I hate to say it but, that's pretty funny coming from an ex Catholic. You're talking about an organization that dedicates millions to a legal budget thats sole purpose is keeping rapists out of jail and abused children quiet. Not everyone does that, I get it... But everyone who is a part of that church is willfully turning a blind eye to the Vatican money machine and its gross practices. No matter the peace it brings them.
The pilots on 9/11 had peace in their hearts too. They believed with every fiber of their being that they were doing the right thing. Because they loved god.
If we had started without religion gaining traction, and instead we had societies built upon science and open reasoning from the get go? Imagine where we'd be now. How much more progress would've been possible if people could communicate openly. I think FeminalPanda was right, it's a stain. Worse than that, religion is toxic.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
-Steven Weinberg
PS I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or anything, I just don't think it's ok to hide behind good intentions. Have a good night!
EDIT Just wanted to add, I think there are better ways to reach the same peace and understanding. And I missed a word!:)
To preface what follows, I come from a Christian evangelical background and agree with you @umop_dn and @FeminalPanda that the organized religious structures we have today do a lot of harm, and...
To preface what follows, I come from a Christian evangelical background and agree with you @umop_dn and @FeminalPanda that the organized religious structures we have today do a lot of harm, and possibly more harm than good.
I think it's easy to demonize religion because it is hypocritical to make a claim to moral rightness and then protect or perpetrate those kinds of evil. But thinking religion is special in doing this is a kind of red herring. More and more, I am convinced that human institutions beyond a certain size are simply vulnerable to two things: 1) a social inertia for the idea of the organization to continue and 2) exploitation by people with a will to power.
If we had started without religion gaining traction, and instead we had societies built upon science and open reasoning from the get go? Imagine where we'd be now. How much more progress would've been possible if people could communicate openly.
The National Science Foundation, the federal agency that oversees the U.S. Antarctic Program, published a report in 2022 in which 59% of women said they’d experienced harassment or assault while on the ice, and 72% of women said such behavior was a problem in Antarctica.
But the problem goes beyond the harassment, The Associated Press found. In [sic] reviewing court records and internal communications, and in interviews with more than a dozen current and former employees, the AP uncovered a pattern of women who said their claims of harassment or assault were minimized by their employers, often leading to them or others being put in further danger.
Sound familiar? Substitute "the Vatican" (or the SBC, or whoever) for "National Science Foundation" and it reads just as expected. The scale of problem with the NSF seems smaller, but I think that is simply because the scale of the organization is smaller, and (perhaps fortunately) there are no children at McMurdo station. Remember that religion has been a part of the fabric of society as long as there has been society, and much longer than "science and open reasoning" has been recognizable in its current form. So of course it's responsible for more evil at a greater scope.
I also don't like to dwell on the problem statement too much. What do we do about it, whether it's the NSF or the SBC or the Vatican?
I am not even sure it's worth talking about whether or not we should dismantle those organizations. I think it's much simpler to realize that we cannot dismantle them. And even if we could, is there something incorruptible that we could replace them with?
And if I can't dismantle the Church, should I stay and try to fight that impulse toward evil within it, or leave so that it's only people who think everything is A-OK who remain? I was deeply uncomfortable with attending church starting in late high school in the late 90's, but it took being home during the pandemic for me to actually leave. And still, I didn't even have the vocabulary to understand why I wanted to leave. Now that I do understand the problems better, I'm mostly not participating in the organized religion. There are still aspects of faith that remain important to me (I think this is similar to the sentiment @precise offered -- I would frame it as "religion is problematic, but faith is legitimately important to many people").
But here's a really important thing: I was able to get out. What about the people who can't (or haven't) gotten out? It can be so hard to get out. Either because of family pressure or social pressure or a fear of what it would mean to abandon something that's been part of their identity their whole lives.
I believe that eventually I am going to go back and be a part of organized religion so that I can try to protect people who are still there. But I think we should all be paying attention to these problems wherever we are -- in church, at work, in school -- all these institutions can dominate and subjugate and abuse.
If there are people for whom this resonates, I'll share some resources that were helpful to me:
The Straight White American Jesus podcast helped me understand the rise of Christian Nationalism in the US which accounted for a large part of the gap between where I found myself personally and the direction that the Evangelical tradition I had identified with were going. In particular, the Orange Wave series helped me understand the degree to which this shift in direction has been organized and orchestrated since long before I was even born. Dan Miller's It's in the code really helped me put words to feelings I had had for years, which helped me start to unravel them. That unraveling is still a work in progress, and may always be.
SWAJ helped me understand my anger and understand the structural flaws and manipulation behind the Evangelical movement, but it was the Followers of the Way series by Stephen Backhouse at Tent Theology that helped me find a more peaceful place and understand that not all theology is the Evangelical school of thought I had been raised with. It gave me some powerful and helpful ideas that let reclaim faith out of the baggage of religion. One really important one was kenosis, the idea of "gentle spacemaking" from this podcast. You can find the rest of the Followers of the Way series through that link as well, but it's well worth supporting his work if you find it useful.
If anyone wants to talk about any of this further, feel free to DM me.
It served a purpose in the days before people openly acknowledged the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around. Now it's a cudgel to beat anyone they perceive as different than...
It served a purpose in the days before people openly acknowledged the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around. Now it's a cudgel to beat anyone they perceive as different than them, to force women to wear ridiculous garments under penalty of imprisonment (or worse), marry underage and be forced to carry to term children they may or may not want, to force the world to stay in place and not progress beyond antiquated medieval thought processes. It had a good run, but religion is now one of the chief things holding back human progress. It's hard to get along with people who live in a fantasy make-belief world where they can use "religious freedom" to suppress the freedom of others, and where all the horrible things they do will just be handwaved away by their respective "sky parent". Perhaps it's "inner peace" to some, but it's outward, barely-veiled hostility to the rest of us.
There are plenty of religious people who actively denounce and abhor the actions done under the name of that religion. You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Your language isn't...
There are plenty of religious people who actively denounce and abhor the actions done under the name of that religion. You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Your language isn't inclusive, nor is it in good faith. Tildes is supposed to be for meaningful conversation, but with your language, you make it very apparent that any conversation - save what you espouse - is accepted.
The most heartbreaking paragraph of a tough read: That means a lot of these children were not believed by or supported by their parents even after they made it out of this school. How did this...
The most heartbreaking paragraph of a tough read:
Local authorities have previously said investigators were hampered by students who recanted their accusations after being returned to their families
That means a lot of these children were not believed by or supported by their parents even after they made it out of this school. How did this drag on for so long?
Before its closure, Miracle Meadows had already fended off three previous attempts to shut the school down, evading state education officials for at least 23 years. West Virginia's courts blocked efforts to hold the boarding school to higher standards of scrutiny, even as complaints of abuse and mistreatment piled up.
This reminds me of elan.school, a long page turner comic story about the horrific abuses the artist, Joe, suffered and observed at the named school: kids were sent there because they had behavioral issues, and parents paid a super high amount of money for their kids to be abused. That perhaps the worst part was how much the parents deluded themselves into wanting to believe this will "transform" their children. The artist specifically chose to leave out depiction of sexual abuse, I believe, but other trigger warnings apply.
I hope these children (now adults) find some manner of healing and peace and are able to receive actual help using this settlement money. And that many more currently in various types of these tortures would be rescued.
Thank you for that link… I’ve only read to chapter 50 or so over the day now and do not yet know how the story continues, but that was truly among the worst things I’d say I have ever had to think...
This reminds me of elan.school, a long page turner comic story about the horrific abuses the artist, Joe, suffered and observed at the named school
Thank you for that link… I’ve only read to chapter 50 or so over the day now and do not yet know how the story continues, but that was truly among the worst things I’d say I have ever had to think about.
I am so incredibly grateful my parents weren’t lunatics when I did some mildly stupid shit as a teenager. These torture camps absolutely destroy kids’ psyches for life. Just terrifying and incredibly angering story all around.
I know what you mean about only being able to take so much darkness in a given day. If you want a mild positive spoiler: the narrator and author, Joe, is doing pretty well today, judging from his...
I know what you mean about only being able to take so much darkness in a given day. If you want a mild positive spoiler:
the narrator and author, Joe, is doing pretty well today, judging from his latest updates
take care of yourself, hug your kids/nieces/nephews if you have them. There's a lot of good in the world and ---- in the worst case, the fact that you and I are abhored by stuff like this instead of "same old", or "oh boy where do I sign up to hurt others", is a testament that there is so much good we can take it for granted on a normal day.
Deborah Hastings
Just why do people do things like this? I simply can't wrap my head around this. The school operated for more than 25 years and nobody knew till some kid drinks a cleaning product...come on.
Religion is a stain on humanity. It's a get out of jail free card for evil people, like being a cop.
I used to think that too. I've come to believe otherwise. Religion can be, has been, and is being used to rationalize horrible things and subjugate others, but (and I hate to use this trope) it's not all religion. I'd like to believe a vast majority of religious folks quietly practice amongst themselves and do not project their values onto others. We always hear about the domineering minority that seeks to craft the world to their ideals, and because that's all we hear about we assume that's all there is to it. It's confirmation bias.
I was raised Catholic -- I now have no religion; I use science and experience as my guides. That said, I disagree that religion is a stain on humanity. Religious followers hold beliefs for a wide variety of reasons, but I've come to realize there's a nearly universal rationale amongst believers of all stripes: it brings inner-peace. Religious folks find stability in their beliefs which is especially important in this unstable world.
I have no problem with people privately practicing their beliefs, and I don't think it's okay to call some folks mental refuge a stain on humanity.
I hate to say it but, that's pretty funny coming from an ex Catholic. You're talking about an organization that dedicates millions to a legal budget thats sole purpose is keeping rapists out of jail and abused children quiet. Not everyone does that, I get it... But everyone who is a part of that church is willfully turning a blind eye to the Vatican money machine and its gross practices. No matter the peace it brings them.
The pilots on 9/11 had peace in their hearts too. They believed with every fiber of their being that they were doing the right thing. Because they loved god.
If we had started without religion gaining traction, and instead we had societies built upon science and open reasoning from the get go? Imagine where we'd be now. How much more progress would've been possible if people could communicate openly. I think FeminalPanda was right, it's a stain. Worse than that, religion is toxic.
"Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion."
-Steven Weinberg
PS I'm not trying to hurt anyone's feelings or anything, I just don't think it's ok to hide behind good intentions. Have a good night!
EDIT Just wanted to add, I think there are better ways to reach the same peace and understanding. And I missed a word!:)
To preface what follows, I come from a Christian evangelical background and agree with you @umop_dn and @FeminalPanda that the organized religious structures we have today do a lot of harm, and possibly more harm than good.
I think it's easy to demonize religion because it is hypocritical to make a claim to moral rightness and then protect or perpetrate those kinds of evil. But thinking religion is special in doing this is a kind of red herring. More and more, I am convinced that human institutions beyond a certain size are simply vulnerable to two things: 1) a social inertia for the idea of the organization to continue and 2) exploitation by people with a will to power.
@umop_dn wrote:
I don't think "science and open reason" are any protection from the problems we see in the church. I'll link back to this discussion from a few days ago here on Tildes: Women working in Antarctica say they were left to fend for themselves against sexual harassers. For context, here's a quote from the article:
Sound familiar? Substitute "the Vatican" (or the SBC, or whoever) for "National Science Foundation" and it reads just as expected. The scale of problem with the NSF seems smaller, but I think that is simply because the scale of the organization is smaller, and (perhaps fortunately) there are no children at McMurdo station. Remember that religion has been a part of the fabric of society as long as there has been society, and much longer than "science and open reasoning" has been recognizable in its current form. So of course it's responsible for more evil at a greater scope.
I also don't like to dwell on the problem statement too much. What do we do about it, whether it's the NSF or the SBC or the Vatican?
I am not even sure it's worth talking about whether or not we should dismantle those organizations. I think it's much simpler to realize that we cannot dismantle them. And even if we could, is there something incorruptible that we could replace them with?
And if I can't dismantle the Church, should I stay and try to fight that impulse toward evil within it, or leave so that it's only people who think everything is A-OK who remain? I was deeply uncomfortable with attending church starting in late high school in the late 90's, but it took being home during the pandemic for me to actually leave. And still, I didn't even have the vocabulary to understand why I wanted to leave. Now that I do understand the problems better, I'm mostly not participating in the organized religion. There are still aspects of faith that remain important to me (I think this is similar to the sentiment @precise offered -- I would frame it as "religion is problematic, but faith is legitimately important to many people").
But here's a really important thing: I was able to get out. What about the people who can't (or haven't) gotten out? It can be so hard to get out. Either because of family pressure or social pressure or a fear of what it would mean to abandon something that's been part of their identity their whole lives.
I believe that eventually I am going to go back and be a part of organized religion so that I can try to protect people who are still there. But I think we should all be paying attention to these problems wherever we are -- in church, at work, in school -- all these institutions can dominate and subjugate and abuse.
If there are people for whom this resonates, I'll share some resources that were helpful to me:
The Straight White American Jesus podcast helped me understand the rise of Christian Nationalism in the US which accounted for a large part of the gap between where I found myself personally and the direction that the Evangelical tradition I had identified with were going. In particular, the Orange Wave series helped me understand the degree to which this shift in direction has been organized and orchestrated since long before I was even born. Dan Miller's It's in the code really helped me put words to feelings I had had for years, which helped me start to unravel them. That unraveling is still a work in progress, and may always be.
SWAJ helped me understand my anger and understand the structural flaws and manipulation behind the Evangelical movement, but it was the Followers of the Way series by Stephen Backhouse at Tent Theology that helped me find a more peaceful place and understand that not all theology is the Evangelical school of thought I had been raised with. It gave me some powerful and helpful ideas that let reclaim faith out of the baggage of religion. One really important one was kenosis, the idea of "gentle spacemaking" from this podcast. You can find the rest of the Followers of the Way series through that link as well, but it's well worth supporting his work if you find it useful.
If anyone wants to talk about any of this further, feel free to DM me.
It served a purpose in the days before people openly acknowledged the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the other way around. Now it's a cudgel to beat anyone they perceive as different than them, to force women to wear ridiculous garments under penalty of imprisonment (or worse), marry underage and be forced to carry to term children they may or may not want, to force the world to stay in place and not progress beyond antiquated medieval thought processes. It had a good run, but religion is now one of the chief things holding back human progress. It's hard to get along with people who live in a fantasy make-belief world where they can use "religious freedom" to suppress the freedom of others, and where all the horrible things they do will just be handwaved away by their respective "sky parent". Perhaps it's "inner peace" to some, but it's outward, barely-veiled hostility to the rest of us.
There are plenty of religious people who actively denounce and abhor the actions done under the name of that religion. You can't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Your language isn't inclusive, nor is it in good faith. Tildes is supposed to be for meaningful conversation, but with your language, you make it very apparent that any conversation - save what you espouse - is accepted.
Theres an excellent "debate" with Christopher Hitchens and Tony Blair about this. I highly recommend you have a look, it is available on youtube.
People take mental refuge in being conservative as well so they don't have to deal with being a good person either. Doesn't make it any better.
The most heartbreaking paragraph of a tough read:
That means a lot of these children were not believed by or supported by their parents even after they made it out of this school. How did this drag on for so long?
According to Abuse Guardian
Tuition was $2000 a month, reported Washington Post.
This reminds me of elan.school, a long page turner comic story about the horrific abuses the artist, Joe, suffered and observed at the named school: kids were sent there because they had behavioral issues, and parents paid a super high amount of money for their kids to be abused. That perhaps the worst part was how much the parents deluded themselves into wanting to believe this will "transform" their children. The artist specifically chose to leave out depiction of sexual abuse, I believe, but other trigger warnings apply.
I hope these children (now adults) find some manner of healing and peace and are able to receive actual help using this settlement money. And that many more currently in various types of these tortures would be rescued.
Thank you for that link… I’ve only read to chapter 50 or so over the day now and do not yet know how the story continues, but that was truly among the worst things I’d say I have ever had to think about.
I am so incredibly grateful my parents weren’t lunatics when I did some mildly stupid shit as a teenager. These torture camps absolutely destroy kids’ psyches for life. Just terrifying and incredibly angering story all around.
Really I can only echo your last paragraph.
I know what you mean about only being able to take so much darkness in a given day. If you want a mild positive spoiler:
take care of yourself, hug your kids/nieces/nephews if you have them. There's a lot of good in the world and ---- in the worst case, the fact that you and I are abhored by stuff like this instead of "same old", or "oh boy where do I sign up to hurt others", is a testament that there is so much good we can take it for granted on a normal day.