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17 votes
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Where does punctuation come from?!
15 votes -
A brief history of the end of the world
9 votes -
Traditionally in the Swedish church the bride and groom walk down the aisle together – but the patriarchal handover is catching on, and now Lutherans want to stop it
24 votes -
Inside Ziklag, the secret organization of wealthy Christians trying to sway the US election and change the country
22 votes -
The Ten Commandments must be displayed in all public Louisiana classrooms under requirement signed into law
68 votes -
Evangelical pastor discusses the link between Barabbas and MAGA Christian nationalism
14 votes -
How (and why) the right stole Christianity
22 votes -
‘God has a new Africa’: undercover in a US-led anti-LGBT ‘hate movement’
17 votes -
Christian Super Bowl commercial outrages US conservatives
39 votes -
Mennonites are pious Christians who eschew much of the modern world. But in Mexico even they have not escaped the pull of the drug cartels.
24 votes -
God and the unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics
26 votes -
Record $100 million settlement reached in lawsuits alleging torture, rape, atarvation at US Christian school
34 votes -
Israeli proposal to move early Christian mosaic to US Museum of the Bible sparks controversy
17 votes -
The medieval food that killed an English king, and could be used to pay your rent
5 votes -
What is your favorite apologetic for theism?
Share your favorite argument for the existence of God below. Background: I'm an atheist (and have been for a decade) who's been interested in Christian Apologetics since I was a young Christian....
Share your favorite argument for the existence of God below.
Background: I'm an atheist (and have been for a decade) who's been interested in Christian Apologetics since I was a young Christian. As I entered adulthood, I found myself losing my faith, largely because I grew up in a fundamentalist, Young Earth Creationist household which taught that evolution and God are incompatible. While I no longer believe in this lack of compatibility, my belief in God never came back. I've tried to give it an honest effort, and there are many compelling reasons why I want Christianity to be true:
- Reunification with loved ones who've passed
- Absolute moral justice exists
- A plan for my life, and meaning in my suffering
- Access to unconditional love; to have a personal relationship with my creator
- Surviving my own death
For a variety of reasons seemingly outside my direct control, I still don't believe. It doesn't help that I've been introduced to strong arguments against the existence of God (e.g. the problem of evil and its subsets) which have rebuttals of varying quality from Christian philosophers. I don't think this lack of belief is my fault, or for lack of trying; I can't make myself believe anything. I try to be open to arguments, and this has led to an obsession with revisiting apologetics.
Now I think of apologetics as at least a fun mental exercise; combing through the arguments, atheist rebuttals, and responses to those rebuttals. That's probably strange, but it tickles the right parts of the brain to keep me engaged.
27 votes -
What was it like celebrating a birthday in the middle ages?
6 votes -
Church of England considers gender neutral pronouns for God
14 votes -
Denmark has managed to anger the Evangelical Lutheran Church and hundreds of thousands of Danish voters – all because of a public holiday
6 votes -
A shared celebration of Orthodox Christmas deep in the Arctic, undimmed by war and the round-the-clock polar night
6 votes -
Norwegian Jehovah's Witnesses no longer registered as religious community – due to exclusionary practices when someone breaks religious rules
7 votes -
Swedes from across the north-east of England have celebrated the traditional Scandinavian festival of Sankta Lucia at Hexham Abbey
4 votes -
Minneapolis church still holds services in Norwegian – congregation was founded in 1922 at the tail end of a decades-long migration of Norwegians to Minnesota
6 votes -
One good way to understand religion is to break it apart
5 votes -
Cain and Abel
Cain and Abel The Story you Might know: Cain was Adam and Eve’s first son, Abel was No. 2. “in the course of time,” Cain, a farmer, brought an offering of his harvest. Abel, a “keeper of flocks,”...
Cain and Abel
The Story you Might know:
Cain was Adam and Eve’s first son, Abel was No. 2. “in the course of time,” Cain, a farmer, brought an offering of his harvest. Abel, a “keeper of flocks,” also brought “the fattest part of the firstborn of his flocks.” Cain got a God Thumbs Down, Abel, a God Thumbs Up.” Cain was pissed, killed Abel. God exiled Cain and put a “mark” on him so no-one would kill him.
You Might not Know:
Cain goes on to found a city and have progeny, one of whom is the father “of those who play stringed and wind instruments,” another becomes the father of “all those who keep flocks,” another the father of those who make tools. So like, everything you could do in the ancient world except farming.
The father of these three is a guy named Lamech. Perhaps merely coincidentally, Lamech is the name of the father of Noah, the next story in the Genesis. Bible Purists obviously distinguish these two, but we’re talking about the Law Books of Moses here, seems like they would have chosen these sorts of things pretty carefully. I am not a Bible purist (or scholar, for that matter).
Something in this story dings a low-pitched gong deep down in my psyche. Granted, I was raised in a certain christian religious tradition where lots of time were spent on certain bible stories, of which this was one. But it was always presented as a simple morality tale: God wants animal sacrifices, and it’s wrong to kill your brother. Also don’t read anything past where God, who is clearly so merciful, put a mark on cain to save his life.
I turned to the internet, and most of the Christian exposition points to a few New Testament passages that clarify Abel was more righteous and had better faith. I found that wholly unsatisfactory. So I looked for Jewish exposition. One, an academic at a (presumably reformed) Jewish university, basically was like, God, wtf? (totally my summary). Others had various moral expositions, albeit far more eloquently reasoned and rhetoricized than the christians, but still unsatisfactory.
Questions based on the English text alone:
What was really wrong with Cain’s offering, and how would Cain know in advance? Sure, all the whole rest of the bible is about animal (and human) sacrifice, but at this stage? After all, God requires Adam to be a farmer, so Cain is just being a dutiful son, and offering what he has to offer. The implication from the text is not that it was wrong in kind, but that it wasn’t “nice” enough, suggested by the text’s additional detail about Abel’s offering being fat and firstborn.
Also, how can Cain’s descendant, born well after this incident, be the of father those “who keep flocks,” when that’s what Abel did?
How did Cain ditch his curse?
What other people were there to kill Cain? At this point, technically, there’s only Adam, Eve, Cain (and dead Abel). Also, where’d he get a wife? And don’t say Adam and Eve were busy. The text says their next child after Cain and Abel was Seth, born after all this mess.
Other than the nature of the offering and the curse, these questions are really only important to Ken Hamm and his pals.
Based on preliminary research:
The questions don’t easily resolve, as some scholars believe that what Cain offered was flax, which would have been the best of his crops. Also, what Abel offered was goats, when the best offering would have been cows. Conclusion: god doesn’t care what kind, so long as it’s the best of that kind. Or, God prefers a Chevy with full options over a base model BMW (better get that heated seat subscription now!).
Cain’s name might mean “blacksmith.” The father of tools is Tubal-Cain. “Abel” might be a transmogrifation of “Jabel,” the father of those who keep flocks.
Lamech is the same Lamech in both stories, what we are seeing is an attempt to include and combine two traditional sources into one text. Assuming that is true, would keeping the name the same be an effort to signal the reader needs to understand we are bridging two stories? I mean, if I were trying subterfuge, I’d change one of their names. If I were trying to be real, I’d add a footnote explaining it. But then again, I don’t have to write on papryus by hand.
Later interpretations:
In the late middle ages/early post middle ages, depictions of this story show Abel as clean shaven, smaller, with soft features, and wearing fine, aristocratic clothing. Cain is bigger, bearded, aggressively countenanced with sharp, angular features. He’s wearing the clothes of a field-hand.
Why I am writing this:
Like I said, it bangs a ceremonial gong. I feel like there is an important truth embedded here. It’s more spiritual, and important, than merely accepting it as an artifact of changing and competing cultures. There’s some talk of two traditions merging here, one priestly, the other “YHWH-ist,” especially when you consider the preceeding and succeeding texts (Adam <> Noah). The competing cultures are nomadic, pastoral (these two are not exclusive), and agricultural, and also urban “industrial.” Everything comes from Cain—nomadicism, agriculture, technology, music, animal husbandry. Some jewish scholars say Architecture is included in there, too.
My interpretation:
I deign to practice midrash. When Cain lets his displeasure at God’s judgment be known, God says something like, don’t you know if you do right, I will lift you up? I think what is being said here is that what Cain did was not good enough—for Cain. That is, Cain could do better. Abel did the best he could, he gave some juicy meat. But God had bigger plans for Cain. No offering of mere crops, or money, or even cows would have satisfied coming from Cain. No, Cain needed to literally found civilization. And following that path is when the blessings started to flow.
Side-note, In old Egypt, Osiris was the first-born brother of Set, and created culture for humans.
Abel the first capitalist.
I believe that medieval interpretations were attempting to perpetuate feudalism. The depictions of poor, innocent Abel, righteous and faithful servant of God, as aristocratic, against aggressive, crude, farmer Cain as a peasant, is meant to keep the judgmental finger of God pointed firmly and clearly at the heart of the serfs. God’s (through his faithful feudal Lord) is going to expel you if you act like Cain. Keep offering your crops to God (through your faithful feudal Lord) plus some phat veal.
It’s also possible that the story was holding up an early form of capitalism. I’m getting speculative (and casual) here. But whereas farming is a very labor intensive endeavor, flocking is very capital intensive (and also, like modern big capitalists, is very good at externalizing costs). Farming does require land-capital, a few tools, and seed, but mostly crops are grown through effort. Pastoral endeavors, otoh, require capital, namely, the flock. The inputs are externalized-water and pasture not owned by the shepherd. The flock largely persists, producing milk, wool, and babies (ROI!!), requiring much less effort to maintain than dirt. Don’t believe me? How do you think David had all that time to sing those psalms?
Thanks for reading.
11 votes -
How politics poisoned the Evangelical church
10 votes -
Is Christmas actually related to the birthday of Sol Invictus?
2 votes -
Rome: Decline and Fall? Part III: Things
6 votes -
Why you're christian
7 votes -
Christianity hasn’t failed in India. Conversion isn’t its only goal
3 votes -
This wealthy Dallas church owns the most clergy homes in Texas — and it costs taxpayers six figures a year
11 votes -
Megan Rohrer elected as first openly transgender bishop in US Lutheran church
11 votes -
Denmark sermons law could stifle free worship, warns Church of England bishop – Robert Innes says proposed translation law could affect religious freedoms across Europe
13 votes -
Abandoning all hope: The divine comedy by Dante, explained
3 votes -
Atheists are sometimes more religious than Christians
11 votes -
Biblically accurate angels and the first sphere of the angelic hierarchy explained
13 votes -
An old Norse 'godhouse' has been discovered in Norway – site reflects how the rise of Christianity to the south affected the worship of the Norse pantheon
8 votes -
The Intrusion and the Decalogue
4 votes -
Priest recorded having group sex on altar of Pearl River church, police say; three arrested
9 votes -
Racism in the USA is higher among white Christians than among the nonreligious. That's no coincidence
28 votes -
The Church of Sweden has more female than male priests for the first time – a sign of huge strides for gender equality since women were first allowed to be ordained in 1960
8 votes -
The Heavenly Court
4 votes -
The invention of satanic witchcraft by medieval authorities was initially met with skepticism
6 votes -
Roe of “Roe v. Wade” says Christian right paid her to be anti-choice mouthpiece
17 votes -
In defense of hellfire: The rhetoric of damnation has been lost. But how else can we adequately condemn injustice?
8 votes -
An Oxford professor, an evangelical collector, and a missing gospel of Mark: A scholar claimed that he discovered a first-century gospel fragment, now faces allegations of theft, cover-up, and fraud
11 votes -
Danish Lutheran minister who attracted international attention by proclaiming that there is no God or afterlife, but retracted after being suspended, has died
5 votes -
Three cheers for socialism - Christian love and political practice
7 votes -
A scandal in Oxford: The curious case of the stolen gospel
7 votes -
United Methodist Church announces plan to split over gay marriage, LGBTQ clergy
17 votes