68 votes

The Ten Commandments must be displayed in all public Louisiana classrooms under requirement signed into law

50 comments

  1. TheJorro
    Link
    A fun school activity to teach kids about the Ten Commandments would be to match up Lousianian politicians to the Commandments they've broken. #6 is going to take a while.

    A fun school activity to teach kids about the Ten Commandments would be to match up Lousianian politicians to the Commandments they've broken. #6 is going to take a while.

    62 votes
  2. [19]
    Grasamucor
    Link
    so much for separation of church and state. I would be surprised if this doesn't get overturned or abolished after lawsuits

    so much for separation of church and state. I would be surprised if this doesn't get overturned or abolished after lawsuits

    48 votes
    1. [5]
      redwall_hp
      Link Parent
      I did some Googling, and a Redditor claims to already be talking with The Satanic Temple, and is also urging people to contact the Freedom From Religion Foundation. I'm sure it'll take some time...

      I did some Googling, and a Redditor claims to already be talking with The Satanic Temple, and is also urging people to contact the Freedom From Religion Foundation.

      I'm sure it'll take some time to get the ball rolling, but this is exactly TST's area of expertise.

      35 votes
      1. [4]
        vagueallusion
        Link Parent
        I think this might be great opportunity for them. They usual push for equal representation so I could see them pushing to have their tenants displayed as well. That would mean displaying their 7...

        I think this might be great opportunity for them. They usual push for equal representation so I could see them pushing to have their tenants displayed as well. That would mean displaying their 7 tenants next to the 10 commandments.
        For those of you who aren't familiar TST is a secular church that champions the separation of Church and state, equal representation, body autonomy, bans on corporal punishment for children.

        Their tenants are pretty solid IMHO

        There are Seven
        FUNDAMENTAL TENETS
        I

        One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.

        II

        The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

        III

        One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

        IV

        The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one's own.

        V

        Beliefs should conform to one's best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one's beliefs.

        VI

        People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one's best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.

        VII

        Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

        55 votes
        1. [2]
          balooga
          Link Parent
          Those are legitimately good, but I was hoping for a document with more explicit references to unholy pacts with Baphomet, bathing in the blood of innocents, instructions for performing evil rites,...

          Those are legitimately good, but I was hoping for a document with more explicit references to unholy pacts with Baphomet, bathing in the blood of innocents, instructions for performing evil rites, and so on and so forth.

          10 votes
          1. DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            You want Theistic Satanism or LaVeyan Satanism or just occult shit for that kind of thing. The Church of Satan is theistic but idk them well enough to know specifics. Left handed path paganism can...

            You want Theistic Satanism or LaVeyan Satanism or just occult shit for that kind of thing. The Church of Satan is theistic but idk them well enough to know specifics.

            Left handed path paganism can get you there sometimes too but it depends on if you have a philosophy about how your trickster gods and devils (from Prometheus and Loki to Lucifer and Set) are all being put upon by authority (gods and the like) and chaos is as necessary as order, or if you're an edgy teen. You can be both but it's usually some combination of those two.

            12 votes
        2. fefellama
          Link Parent
          The first time I came across those tenets I remember reading through them and thinking of various ways that they could be misconstrued or perverted at the whims of individual bias, then I got to...

          The first time I came across those tenets I remember reading through them and thinking of various ways that they could be misconstrued or perverted at the whims of individual bias, then I got to the last one that basically sums it up as 'hey these are not hard rules okay, just don't be a dick' and loved it.

          5 votes
    2. [13]
      Halfloaf
      Link Parent
      This is another in a long line of actions that leaves me without proper words. I simply don’t understand how anyone in the Republican party could have ever passed a civics class and believe that...

      This is another in a long line of actions that leaves me without proper words.

      I simply don’t understand how anyone in the Republican party could have ever passed a civics class and believe that this is a reasonable action that follows any reasonable interpretation of the constitution.

      18 votes
      1. Gekko
        Link Parent
        civics classes require you memorize and recite some terms on a test and then forget them, having never learned their function or purpose. Most people have no idea how the government or civil...

        civics classes require you memorize and recite some terms on a test and then forget them, having never learned their function or purpose. Most people have no idea how the government or civil services work.

        I consider myself something of an enthusiast and I still don't feel confident enough to give a lecture on any of it. I have like the middle school math equivalent of civics knowledge, and it's embarrassingly more than most people.

        25 votes
      2. [5]
        chocobean
        Link Parent
        I think they believe that the constitution should enshrine evangelicalism, not that their cultist behavior needs to align with any reasonable interpretation of the constitution They very often...

        I think they believe that the constitution should enshrine evangelicalism, not that their cultist behavior needs to align with any reasonable interpretation of the constitution

        They very often quote Acts 5:29, "We ought to obey God rather than men". And then they completely ignore Romans 13.

        The context of the first quote is religious leaders told the Apostles not to preach the name of Christ, but the Apostles rebutted with the quote that they're not going to listen to the leaders: preaching isn't against Roman or Jewish laws, and the people they're preaching to can obviously choose not to listen. It's more akin to freedom of speech than say, an insurrection or breaking the constitution.

        The context of the second quote:

        13:1 Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God. 2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will [a]bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

        Maybe it's not a coincidence some of these people are also so upset about any government and upset about taxes. Just picking and choosing what to believe, and setting themselves up as gods so that they always defend their bad actions with they're obey the god in the mirror.

        19 votes
        1. [4]
          hobbes64
          Link Parent
          Well actually I hope they don't latch onto this Romans 13 bible quote which promotes authoritarianism. The authorities that exist are appointed by God? I guess we've seen the historic problem with...

          Well actually I hope they don't latch onto this Romans 13 bible quote which promotes authoritarianism. The authorities that exist are appointed by God? I guess we've seen the historic problem with that claim.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            DefinitelyNotAFae
            Link Parent
            It's almost like sometimes these letters were just things written by Paul (or whomever) about a particular situation and shouldn't be taken as blanket statements. I really appreciate my theology...

            It's almost like sometimes these letters were just things written by Paul (or whomever) about a particular situation and shouldn't be taken as blanket statements.

            I really appreciate my theology courses I took in college (Jesuit school) because I feel so much more knowledgeable in a practical way despite not believing in the faith side of it.

            9 votes
            1. [2]
              chocobean
              Link Parent
              Haha :) yes thank you for that reminder. It's important to read historical things in proper context instead of .... Every reader is equally qualified to interpret things in ways that suit their...

              Haha :) yes thank you for that reminder. It's important to read historical things in proper context instead of .... Every reader is equally qualified to interpret things in ways that suit their own biases.

              1. DefinitelyNotAFae
                Link Parent
                I mean, I won't go as far as the Catholic Church used to in regards to not interpreting it in your own, but yes historical context is really useful. Also Christianity is a rookie at this compared...

                I mean, I won't go as far as the Catholic Church used to in regards to not interpreting it in your own, but yes historical context is really useful.

                Also Christianity is a rookie at this compared to Judaism, where whatever people are thinking about has probably been argued every possible way multiple times.

                1 vote
      3. [5]
        bengine
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        Civics class is too late when you've been taught from birth that your religion is the only right one, the constitution will always be secondary to that. Beliefs which have been reached without...

        Civics class is too late when you've been taught from birth that your religion is the only right one, the constitution will always be secondary to that. Beliefs which have been reached without reason cannot be easily changed by reason.

        11 votes
        1. [2]
          NoblePath
          Link Parent
          Well, current psychological approaches, and me, would tend to differ. Cbt and dbt both rely on thinking about things and changing your reactions accordingly. Also, I was raised ina fundamentalist...

          Beliefs which have been reached without reason cannot be changed by reason.

          Well, current psychological approaches, and me, would tend to differ. Cbt and dbt both rely on thinking about things and changing your reactions accordingly. Also, I was raised ina fundamentalist setting, and a combination of experience and ideas led me out of it.

          9 votes
          1. bengine
            Link Parent
            I get your point, and agree with you so maybe I should have included the word 'easy' or similar. Behavioral therapy isn't quick or easy, and I doubt your path out of fundamentalism was either...

            I get your point, and agree with you so maybe I should have included the word 'easy' or similar. Behavioral therapy isn't quick or easy, and I doubt your path out of fundamentalism was either (congratulations btw).

            3 votes
        2. [2]
          updawg
          Link Parent
          This sounds like you're suggesting that high school and college kids never change their beliefs.

          This sounds like you're suggesting that high school and college kids never change their beliefs.

          3 votes
          1. bengine
            Link Parent
            Not what I intended, it was specifically about the comment above questioning how a politician pushing this bill could have passed high school civics. I just don't think a single high school class...

            Not what I intended, it was specifically about the comment above questioning how a politician pushing this bill could have passed high school civics. I just don't think a single high school class would have convinced a politician supporting this bill about the virtues of the separation of church and state. Students learn and change their opinions all the time, but I doubt any politician who believe putting a poster of the 10 commandments in a school will fix anything do that very often.

            3 votes
      4. agentsquirrel
        Link Parent
        There's actually a reasonable explanation for all of this. They know they're going to get sued, they know they're going to be legally defeated. Such a defeat just strengthens their base of support...

        There's actually a reasonable explanation for all of this. They know they're going to get sued, they know they're going to be legally defeated. Such a defeat just strengthens their base of support as they'll be seen as heroes within the Christian right.

        7 votes
  3. [6]
    ShamedSalmon
    (edited )
    Link
    Everyone else is rightfully questioning the legality of this move. Meanwhile, being a nerd, I'm wondering how they will decide which set of the Ten Commandments is to be posted. It's been a bone...
    • Exemplary

    Everyone else is rightfully questioning the legality of this move. Meanwhile, being a nerd, I'm wondering how they will decide which set of the Ten Commandments is to be posted. It's been a bone of contention for some 1600 years, first between the Orthodox and Catholics, then between the Catholics and Protestants.

    For context, the Ten Commandments are not enumerated in any form of the Torah, be it the Greek Septuagint or the Hebrew Masoretic Text. One book mentions in passing that there are "ten words", which Christians invariably translate as "ten commandments":

    Exodus 34:28

    LXX: καὶ ἦν ἐκεῖ Μωυσῆς ἐναντίον Κυρίου τεσσαράκοντα ἡμέρας καὶ τεσσαράκοντα νύκτας· ἄρτον οὐκ ἔφαγε καὶ ὕδωρ οὐκ ἔπιε· καὶ ἔγραψεν ἐπὶ τῶν πλακῶν τὰ ρήματα ταῦτα τῆς διαθήκης, τοὺς δέκα λόγους.

    WLC: וַֽיְהִי־שָׁ֣ם עִם־יְהֹוָ֗ה אַרְבָּעִ֥ים יוֹם֙ וְאַרְבָּעִ֣ים לַ֔יְלָה לֶ֚חֶם לֹ֣א אָכַ֔ל וּמַ֖יִם לֹ֣א שָׁתָ֑ה וַיִּכְתֹּ֣ב עַל־הַלֻּחֹ֗ת אֵ֚ת דִּבְרֵ֣י הַבְּרִ֔ית עֲשֶׂ֖רֶת הַדְּבָרִֽים׃

    ESV: So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments*

    • [ עֲשֶׂ֖רֶת הַדְּבָרִֽים ] [ δέκα λόγους ] "ten words".

    However, this passage may not apply to the directives in question. Moreover, they are not actually numerically listed in the book from which people cite them:

    Deuteronomy 5:6-21

    Click to Expand
    LXX: κἀγὼ εἱστήκειν ἀνὰ μέσον Κυρίου καὶ ὑμῶν ἐν τῷ καιρῷ ἐκείνῳ ἀναγγεῖλαι ὑμῖν τὰ ρήματα Κυρίου, ὅτι ἐφοβήθητε ἀπὸ προσώπου τοῦ πυρὸς καὶ οὐκ ἀνέβητε εἰς τὸ ὄρος, λέγων· ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου ὁ ἐξαγαγών σε ἐκ γῆς Αἰγύπτου, ἐξ οἴκου δουλείας. οὐκ ἔσονταί σοι θεοὶ ἕτεροι πρὸ προσώπου μου. οὐ ποιήσεις σεαυτῷ εἴδωλον οὐδὲ παντὸς ὁμοίωμα, ὅσα ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ ἄνω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τῇ γῇ κάτω καὶ ὅσα ἐν τοῖς ὕδασιν ὑποκάτω τῆς γῆς. οὐ προσκυνήσεις αὐτοῖς οὐδὲ μὴ λατρεύσῃς αὐτοῖς, ὅτι ἐγώ εἰμι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου, Θεὸς ζηλωτής, ἀποδιδοὺς ἁμαρτίας πατέρων ἐπὶ τέκνα ἐπὶ τρίτην καὶ τετάρτην γενεὰν τοῖς μισοῦσί με. καὶ ποιῶν ἔλεος εἰς χιλιάδας τοῖς ἀγαπῶσί με καὶ τοῖς φυλάσσουσι τὰ προστάγματά μου. οὐ λήψῃ τὸ ὄνομα Κυρίου τοῦ Θεοῦ σου ἐπὶ ματαίῳ· οὐ γὰρ μὴ καθαρίσῃ Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου τὸν λαμβάνοντα τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ ματαίῳ. φύλαξαι τὴν ἡμέραν τῶν σαββάτων ἁγιάζειν αὐτήν, ὃν τρόπον ἐνετείλατό σοι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου. ἓξ ἡμέρας ἐργᾷ καὶ ποιήσεις πάντα τὰ ἔργα σου· τῇ δὲ ἡμέρᾳ τῇ ἑβδόμῃ σάββατα Κυρίῳ τῷ Θεῷ σου, οὐ ποιήσεις ἐν αὐτῇ πᾶν ἔργον, σὺ καὶ ὁ υἱός σου καὶ ἡ θυγάτηρ σου, ὁ παῖς σου καὶ ἡ παιδίσκη σου, ὁ βοῦς σου καὶ τὸ ὑποζύγιόν σου καὶ πᾶν κτῆνός σου καὶ προσήλυτος ὁ παροικῶν ἐν σοί, ἵνα ἀναπαύσηται ὁ παῖς σου καὶ ἡ παιδίσκη σου καὶ τὸ ὑποζύγιόν σου, ὥσπερ καὶ σύ· καὶ μνησθήσῃ ὅτι οἰκέτης ἦσθα ἐν γῇ Αἰγύπτῳ καὶ ἐξήγαγέ σε Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου ἐκεῖθεν ἐν χειρὶ κραταιᾷ καὶ ἐν βραχίονι ὑψηλῷ, διὰ τοῦτο συνέταξέ σοι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου, ὥστε φυλάσσεσθαι τὴν ἡμέραν τῶν σαββάτων καὶ ἁγιάζειν αὐτήν. τίμα τὸν πατέρα σου καὶ τὴν μητέρα σου, ὃν τρόπον ἐνετείλατό σοι Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου, ἵνα εὖ σοι γένηται καὶ ἵνα μακροχρόνιος γένῃ ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ἧς Κύριος ὁ Θεός σου δίδωσί σοι. οὐ φονεύσεις. οὐ μοιχεύσεις. οὐ κλέψεις. οὐ ψευδομαρτυρήσεις κατὰ τοῦ πλησίον σου μαρτυρίαν ψευδῆ. οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν γυναῖκα τοῦ πλησίον σου· οὐκ ἐπιθυμήσεις τὴν οἰκίαν τοῦ πλησίον σου οὔτε τὸν ἀγρὸν αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὸν παῖδα αὐτοῦ οὔτε τὴν παιδίσκην αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ βοὸς αὐτοῦ οὔτε τοῦ ὑποζυγίου αὐτοῦ οὔτε παντὸς κτήνους αὐτοῦ οὔτε πάντα ὅσα τῷ πλησίον σού ἐστι.

    WLC: וַיִּקְרָ֣א מֹשֶׁה֮ אֶל־כָּל־יִשְׂרָאֵל֒ וַיֹּ֣אמֶר אֲלֵהֶ֗ם שְׁמַ֤ע יִשְׂרָאֵל֙ אֶת־הַחֻקִּ֣ים וְאֶת־הַמִּשְׁפָּטִ֔ים אֲשֶׁ֧ר אָנֹכִ֛י דֹּבֵ֥ר בְּאָזְנֵיכֶ֖ם הַיּ֑וֹם וּלְמַדְתֶּ֣ם אֹתָ֔ם וּשְׁמַרְתֶּ֖ם לַעֲשֹׂתָֽם׃ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֵ֗ינוּ כָּרַ֥ת עִמָּ֛נוּ בְּרִ֖ית בְּחֹרֵֽב׃ לֹ֣א אֶת־אֲבֹתֵ֔ינוּ כָּרַ֥ת יְהוָ֖ה אֶת־הַבְּרִ֣ית הַזֹּ֑את כִּ֣י אִתָּ֔נוּ אֲנַ֨חְנוּ אֵ֥לֶּה פֹ֛ה הַיּ֖וֹם כֻּלָּ֥נוּ חַיִּֽים׃ פָּנִ֣ים ׀ בְּפָנִ֗ים דִּבֶּ֨ר יְהוָ֧ה עִמָּכֶ֛ם בָּהָ֖ר מִתּ֥וֹךְ הָאֵֽשׁ׃ אָ֠נֹכִי עֹמֵ֨ד בֵּין־יְהוָ֤ה וּבֵֽינֵיכֶם֙ בָּעֵ֣ת הַהִ֔וא לְהַגִּ֥יד לָכֶ֖ם אֶת־דְּבַ֣ר יְהוָ֑ה כִּ֤י יְרֵאתֶם֙ מִפְּנֵ֣י הָאֵ֔שׁ וְלֹֽא־עֲלִיתֶ֥ם בָּהָ֖ר לֵאמֹֽר׃ אָֽנֹכִי֙ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ אֲשֶׁ֧ר הוֹצֵאתִ֛יךָ מֵאֶ֥רֶץ מִצְרַ֖יִם מִבֵּ֣֥ית עֲבָדִ֑͏ֽים׃ לֹ֣א יִהְיֶ֥ה־לְךָ֛֩ אֱלֹהִ֥֨ים אֲחֵרִ֖֜ים עַל־פָּנָֽ͏ַ֗י לֹֽ֣א־תַעֲשֶֽׂ֙ה־לְךָ֥֣ פֶ֣֙סֶל֙ ׀ כָּל־תְּמוּנָ֔֡ה אֲשֶׁ֤֣ר בַּשָּׁמַ֣֙יִם֙ ׀ מִמַּ֔֡עַל וַאֲשֶׁ֥ר֩ בָּאָ֖֨רֶץ מִתָּ֑֜חַת וַאֲשֶׁ֥ר בַּמַּ֖֣יִם ׀ מִתַּ֥֣חַת לָאָֽ֗רֶץ׃ לֹא־תִשְׁתַּחֲוֶ֥֣ה לָהֶ֖ם֮ וְלֹ֣א תָעָבְדֵ֑ם֒ כִּ֣י אָנֹכִ֞י יְהוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֶ֙יךָ֙ אֵ֣ל קַנָּ֔א פֹּ֠קֵד עֲוֺ֨ן אָב֧וֹת עַל־בָּנִ֛ים וְעַל־שִׁלֵּשִׁ֥ים וְעַל־רִבֵּעִ֖ים לְשֹׂנְאָֽ֑י׃ וְעֹ֥֤שֶׂה חֶ֖֙סֶד֙ לֽ͏ַאֲלָפִ֑֔ים לְאֹהֲבַ֖י וּלְשֹׁמְרֵ֥י מצותו מִצְוֺתָֽי׃ לֹ֥א תִשָּׂ֛א אֶת־שֵֽׁם־יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ לַשָּׁ֑וְא כִּ֣י לֹ֤א יְנַקֶּה֙ יְהוָ֔ה אֵ֛ת אֲשֶׁר־יִשָּׂ֥א אֶת־שְׁמ֖וֹ לַשָּֽׁוְא׃ שָׁמ֛֣וֹר אֶת־י֥וֹם֩ הַשַׁבָּ֖֨ת לְקַדְּשׁ֑֜וֹ כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר צִוְּךָ֖֣ ׀ יְהוָ֥֣ה אֱלֹהֶֽ֗יךָ שֵׁ֣֤שֶׁת יָמִ֣ים תּֽ͏ַעֲבֹ֔ד֮ וְעָשִׂ֖֣יתָ כָּֿל־מְלַאכְתֶּֽךָ֒׃ וְי֨וֹם֙ הַשְּׁבִיעִ֔֜י שַׁבָּ֖֣ת ׀ לַיהוָ֣֥ה אֱלֹהֶ֑֗יךָ לֹ֣א תַעֲשֶׂ֣ה כָל־מְלָאכָ֡ה אַתָּ֣ה וּבִנְךָֽ־וּבִתֶּ֣ךָ וְעַבְדְּךָֽ־וַ֠אֲמָתֶךָ וְשׁוֹרְךָ֨ וַחֲמֹֽרְךָ֜ וְכָל־בְּהֶמְתֶּ֗ךָ וְגֵֽרְךָ֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר בִּשְׁעָרֶ֔יךָ לְמַ֗עַן יָנ֛וּחַ עַבְדְּךָ֥ וַאֲמָתְךָ֖ כָּמֽ֑וֹךָ׃ וְזָכַרְתָּ֗֞ כִּ֣י־עֶ֤֥בֶד הָיִ֣֙יתָ֙ ׀ בְּאֶ֣רֶץ מִצְרַ֔֗יִם וַיֹּצִ֨אֲךָ֜֩ יְהוָ֤֨ה אֱלֹהֶ֤֙יךָ֙ מִשָּׁ֔ם֙ בְּיָ֥֤ד חֲזָקָ֖ה֙ וּבִזְרֹ֣עַ נְטוּיָ֑֔ה עַל־כֵּ֗ן צִוְּךָ֙ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ לַעֲשׂ֖וֹת אֶת־י֥וֹם הַשַׁבָּֽת׃ כַּבֵּ֤ד אֶת־אָבִ֙יךָ֙ וְאֶת־אִמֶּ֔ךָ כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר צִוְּךָ֖ יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֑יךָ לְמַ֣עַן ׀ יַאֲרִיכֻ֣ן יָמֶ֗יךָ וּלְמַ֙עַן֙ יִ֣יטַב לָ֔ךְ עַ֚ל הָֽאֲדָמָ֔ה אֲשֶׁר־יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֶ֖יךָ נֹתֵ֥ן לָֽךְ׃ לֹ֥֖א תִּֿרְצָ֖ח׃ וְלֹ֣֖א תִּֿנְאָֽ֑ף׃ וְלֹ֣֖א תִּֿגְנֹֽ֔ב׃ וְלֹֽא־תַעֲנֶ֥ה בְרֵֽעֲךָ֖ עֵ֥ד שָֽׁוְא׃ וְלֹ֥א תַחְמֹ֖ד אֵ֣שֶׁת רֵעֶ֑ךָ וְלֹ֨א תִתְאַוֶּ֜ה בֵּ֣ית רֵעֶ֗ךָ שָׂדֵ֜הוּ וְעַבְדּ֤וֹ וַאֲמָתוֹ֙ שׁוֹר֣וֹ וַחֲמֹר֔וֹ וְכֹ֖ל אֲשֶׁ֥ר לְרֵעֶֽךָ׃ אֶֽת־הַדְּבָרִ֣ים הָאֵ֡לֶּה דִּבֶּר֩ יְהוָ֨ה אֶל־כָּל־קְהַלְכֶ֜ם בָּהָ֗ר מִתּ֤וֹךְ הָאֵשׁ֙ הֶֽעָנָ֣ן וְהָֽעֲרָפֶ֔ל ק֥וֹל גָּד֖וֹל וְלֹ֣א יָסָ֑ף וַֽיִּכְתְּבֵ֗ם עַל־שְׁנֵי֙ לֻחֹ֣ת אֲבָנִ֔ים וַֽיִּתְּנֵ֖ם אֵלָֽי׃ וַיְהִ֗י כְּשָׁמְעֲכֶ֤ם אֶת־הַקּוֹל֙ מִתּ֣וֹךְ הַחֹ֔שֶׁךְ וְהָהָ֖ר בֹּעֵ֣ר בָּאֵ֑שׁ וַתִּקְרְב֣וּן אֵלַ֔י כָּל־רָאשֵׁ֥י שִׁבְטֵיכֶ֖ם וְזִקְנֵיכֶֽם׃ וַתֹּאמְר֗וּ הֵ֣ן הֶרְאָ֜נוּ יְהוָ֤ה אֱלֹהֵ֙ינוּ֙ אֶת־כְּבֹד֣וֹ וְאֶת־גָּדְל֔וֹ וְאֶת־קֹל֥וֹ שָׁמַ֖עְנוּ מִתּ֣וֹךְ הָאֵ֑שׁ הַיּ֤וֹם הַזֶּה֙ רָאִ֔ינוּ כִּֽי־יְדַבֵּ֧ר אֱלֹהִ֛ים אֶת־הָֽאָדָ֖ם וָחָֽי׃ וְעַתָּה֙ לָ֣מָּה נָמ֔וּת כִּ֣י תֹֽאכְלֵ֔נוּ הָאֵ֥שׁ הַגְּדֹלָ֖ה הַזֹּ֑את אִם־יֹסְפִ֣ים ׀ אֲנַ֗חְנוּ לִ֠שְׁמֹעַ אֶת־ק֨וֹל יְהוָ֧ה אֱלֹהֵ֛ינוּ ע֖וֹד וָמָֽתְנוּ׃ כִּ֣י מִ֣י כָל־בָּשָׂ֡ר אֲשֶׁ֣ר שָׁמַ֣ע קוֹל֩ אֱלֹהִ֨ים חַיִּ֜ים מְדַבֵּ֧ר מִתּוֹךְ־הָאֵ֛שׁ כָּמֹ֖נוּ וַיֶּֽחִי׃ קְרַ֤ב אַתָּה֙ וּֽשֲׁמָ֔ע אֵ֛ת כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֥ר יֹאמַ֖ר יְהוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֵ֑ינוּ וְאַ֣תְּ ׀ תְּדַבֵּ֣ר אֵלֵ֗ינוּ אֵת֩ כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֨ר יְדַבֵּ֜ר יְהוָ֧ה אֱלֹהֵ֛ינוּ אֵלֶ֖יךָ וְשָׁמַ֥עְנוּ וְעָשִֽׂינוּ׃ וַיִּשְׁמַ֤ע יְהוָה֙ אֶת־ק֣וֹל דִּבְרֵיכֶ֔ם בְּדַבֶּרְכֶ֖ם אֵלָ֑י וַיֹּ֨אמֶר יְהוָ֜ה אֵלַ֗י שָׁ֠מַעְתִּי אֶת־ק֨וֹל דִּבְרֵ֜י הָעָ֤ם הַזֶּה֙ אֲשֶׁ֣ר דִּבְּר֣וּ אֵלֶ֔יךָ הֵיטִ֖יבוּ כָּל־אֲשֶׁ֥ר דִּבֵּֽרוּ׃ מִֽי־יִתֵּ֡ן וְהָיָה֩ לְבָבָ֨ם זֶ֜ה לָהֶ֗ם לְיִרְאָ֥ה אֹתִ֛י וְלִשְׁמֹ֥ר אֶת־כָּל־מִצְוֺתַ֖י כָּל־הַיָּמִ֑ים לְמַ֨עַן יִיטַ֥ב לָהֶ֛ם וְלִבְנֵיהֶ֖ם לְעֹלָֽם׃ לֵ֖ךְ אֱמֹ֣ר לָהֶ֑ם שׁ֥וּבוּ לָכֶ֖ם לְאָהֳלֵיכֶֽם׃ וְאַתָּ֗ה פֹּה֮ עֲמֹ֣ד עִמָּדִי֒ וַאֲדַבְּרָ֣ה אֵלֶ֗יךָ אֵ֧ת כָּל־הַמִּצְוָ֛ה וְהַחֻקִּ֥ים וְהַמִּשְׁפָּטִ֖ים אֲשֶׁ֣ר תְּלַמְּדֵ֑ם וְעָשׂ֣וּ בָאָ֔רֶץ אֲשֶׁ֧ר אָנֹכִ֛י נֹתֵ֥ן לָהֶ֖ם לְרִשְׁתָּֽהּ׃ וּשְׁמַרְתֶּ֣ם לַעֲשׂ֔וֹת כַּאֲשֶׁ֥ר צִוָּ֛ה יְהוָ֥ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֖ם אֶתְכֶ֑ם לֹ֥א תָסֻ֖רוּ יָמִ֥ין וּשְׂמֹֽאל׃ בְּכָל־הַדֶּ֗רֶךְ אֲשֶׁ֨ר צִוָּ֜ה יְהוָ֧ה אֱלֹהֵיכֶ֛ם אֶתְכֶ֖ם תֵּלֵ֑כוּ לְמַ֤עַן תִּֽחְיוּן֙ וְט֣וֹב לָכֶ֔ם וְהַאֲרַכְתֶּ֣ם יָמִ֔ים בָּאָ֖רֶץ אֲשֶׁ֥ר תִּֽירָשֽׁוּן׃

    ESV: "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments. You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain. Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter or your male servant or your female servant, or your ox or your donkey or any of your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates, that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you. You shall remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the Lord your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God commanded you to keep the Sabbath day. Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, that your days may be long, and that it may go well with you in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. You shall not murder. And you shall not commit adultery. And you shall not steal. And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's."

    This leads to a problem: Christians are historically opposed among themselves in how to divide this passage. Generally, it comes down to two sets, Origen's list, and Augustine's list.

    Number Origen Augustine
    1 ...You shall have no other gods before me. ...You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth...
    2 You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth... ...You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain...
    3 ...You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain... ...Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy...
    4 ...Observe the Sabbath day, to keep it holy... ...Honor your father and your mother...
    5 ...Honor your father and your mother... ...You shall not murder.
    6 ...You shall not murder. And you shall not commit adultery.
    7 And you shall not commit adultery. And you shall not steal.
    8 And you shall not steal. And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.
    9 And you shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife.
    10 And you shall not covet your neighbor's wife. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's. And you shall not desire your neighbor's house, his field, or his male servant, or his female servant, his ox, or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.

    Catholics and Lutherans tend to follow Augustine's set. Most other Protestants, as well as many of the Eastern Orthodox churches, tend to follow Origen's set.

    The differences are rather minor, as you can see, but the espousers of both groups continue to occasionally take a sharply negative view of the other.

    EDIT: Just found the answer: it's Origen's version that is to be posted.

    EDIT2: Some sentence clarity.

    18 votes
    1. [2]
      RobotOverlord525
      Link Parent
      I think this set would clearly show the timeless and divine wisdom of the Bible that in no way reflects ancient priorities. Exodus 34:17-28 We certainly wouldn't want people doing the wrong thing...

      I think this set would clearly show the timeless and divine wisdom of the Bible that in no way reflects ancient priorities.

      You shall not make cast idols.

      You shall keep the festival of unleavened bread. Seven days you shall eat unleavened bread, as I commanded you, at the time appointed in the month of Abib; for in the month of Abib you came out from Egypt.

      All that first opens the womb is mine, all your male livestock, the firstborn of cow and sheep. The firstborn of a donkey you shall redeem with a lamb, or if you will not redeem it you shall break its neck. All the firstborn of your sons you shall redeem.

      No one shall appear before me empty-handed.

      Six days you shall work, but on the seventh day you shall rest; even in plowing time and in harvest time you shall rest. You shall observe the festival of weeks, the first fruits of wheat harvest, and the festival of ingathering at the turn of the year. Three times in the year all your males shall appear before the Lord God, the God of Israel. For I will cast out nations before you, and enlarge your borders; no one shall covet your land when you go up to appear before the Lord your God three times in the year.

      You shall not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven, and the sacrifice of the festival of the passover shall not be left until the morning.

      The best of the first fruits of your ground you shall bring to the house of the Lord your God.

      You shall not boil a kid in its mother’s milk.

      The Lord said to Moses: Write these words; in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel. He was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

      Exodus 34:17-28

      We certainly wouldn't want people doing the wrong thing with their donkeys!

      13 votes
      1. updawg
        Link Parent
        For anyone curious:

        For anyone curious:

        The Ritual Decalogue[1] is a list of laws at Exodus 34:11–26. These laws are similar to the Covenant Code and are followed by the phrase "ten commandments" (Hebrew: עשרת הדברים aseret ha-dvarîm, in Exodus 34:28). Although the phrase "Ten Commandments" has traditionally been interpreted as referring to a very different set of laws, in Exodus 20:2–17,[2] many scholars believe it instead refers to the Ritual Decalogue found two verses earlier.[3][4][5][6]

        8 votes
    2. public
      Link Parent
      What proportion of the practicing Christians in Louisiana are Catholics? I see both options of the Church choosing to state an opinion as equally plausible: they could support it as a measure of...

      What proportion of the practicing Christians in Louisiana are Catholics? I see both options of the Church choosing to state an opinion as equally plausible: they could support it as a measure of public morality or they may be the secret plaintiff in a parallel trial to the Satanic Temple where they fund some teachers or districts to deliberately use the Augustine translation in their classrooms.

      2 votes
    3. [2]
      tanglisha
      Link Parent
      I wonder if the law stipulates it has to be in English. Maybe it could be in Aramaic.

      I wonder if the law stipulates it has to be in English. Maybe it could be in Aramaic.

      2 votes
      1. chocobean
        Link Parent
        The original wasn't in Aramaic though, but I doubt they would go for Hebrew or Greek either And especially hilarious for the school aides and janitors who must work on Sunday (US Sabbath) to keep...

        The original wasn't in Aramaic though, but I doubt they would go for Hebrew or Greek either

        And especially hilarious for the school aides and janitors who must work on Sunday (US Sabbath) to keep their schools running.

        3 votes
  4. [8]
    Fiachra
    Link
    I wonder is the play to do this, and when it inevitably gets struck down do a press tour about how they "cancelled the ten commandments"? Or are they just so secure in their majority in local...

    I wonder is the play to do this, and when it inevitably gets struck down do a press tour about how they "cancelled the ten commandments"? Or are they just so secure in their majority in local government they can just force this through?

    18 votes
    1. [5]
      DavesWorld
      Link Parent
      Lots of things. Some of the people involved in this might have even thought it all the way through. Some are just fanatics who haven't, but who will still benefit from all of this even though...
      • Exemplary

      Lots of things. Some of the people involved in this might have even thought it all the way through. Some are just fanatics who haven't, but who will still benefit from all of this even though they're abjectly unintelligent. Others have weighed it though, and are happy to see the law signed.

      What do they get?

      • For now, just as many of them want, they get to enjoy having the 10C displayed.

      • They get to enjoy the lauding they'll receive from their base for having pushed this requirement through.

      • They get to enjoy the targeting they'll receive from opponents. They're basically requiring those who aren't in their base to out themselves (by objecting). This enables them to in return target those opponents (especially political opponents such as opposing legislators or candidates) and whip their base to attack those individuals or groups.

      • They get to distract and obfuscate their opposition. There's only so many topics and targets that can fill up the political spectrum. The people, social media, actual political operatives, anyone engaged on the political battlefields ... they only have so much bandwidth. There's only so much time in a day, so much money to pour into ads and protests and lawsuits and organizations and so on. Moves like the 10C in classrooms throws one more piece of chaff up to distract and diffuse opposition.

      • It doesn't cost them anything personally. Their campaigns, their donors, their side of the political aisle, doesn't have to invest their own funds into opposing it. Lawsuits cost money. Since this 10C move is a state thing, state funds will defend it in court and throughout the appeals process. It's literally free political capital for them, which worsens the chaff aspect for the opposition.

      • It takes time for even a successful opposition campaign to take place. It could easily be a decade for this to work through the courts, because courts have no interest in moving in a timely fashion. There could be lots of reasons for this, and it's technically a separate discussion, but the bottom line is overturning this will take years. All while the 10C are prominently displayed in the classrooms.

      • During that time, even if it does get overturned, they get to enjoy knowing they're pushing the 10C in the face of a generation. Literally. A decade long court case is basically the entire school career of some kid who's in first grade come this fall. That kid could be a senior, or even have graduated, by the time the courts eventually decide to stop fucking around and agree it's a violation of church/state separation.

      • And finally, the horse might talk. They might get the ruling they want, and the courts could allow them to continue to display the 10C in the classrooms. Which just doubles down on basically every single one of the other favorable points above for them.

      Again, not everyone involved in this process was clever enough to realize or recognize all or even most of this. Some of them are just a face, someone who knows how to shake hands and charm donors at Party Mixers. Or they might merely be a greedy opportunist, and nod along with whatever so long as they get votes and bribes non-stop.

      There are some politicians who stood up for this thinking nothing more than "I'm a God Fearing Right Wing Christian Nationalist in good standing and this is my sworn duty. To push back against the foul atheists and heathen unbelievers however I can. That's why I'm behind this law, which simply displays the Ten Commandments to every schoolchild so they can grow up appreciating them."

      There are legislators who voted for this, donors who nodded favorably for it, political staffers who helped move it through the process, who are nothing more than a Yes person. Who genuinely are unintelligent enough to think about it beyond "My God Good, My God should be Your God, This Makes That More Likely."

      Fanatics, in so many words. Someone who's drunk the Kool-aid.

      But the political operatives, the sharks, the backroom wizards and cigar smoking calculating experts ... they've figured all those key points out and more. And not casually. They likely dialed down enough to have good estimates of how long the courts might take foot dragging, how much it'll cost, how many news cycles they'll get to enjoy seeing consumed by this law each week, each month. And so on.

      Remember: regardless of whether you agree or disagree with this 10C thing, it's ultimately a social issue. A distraction from the actual business of the country. Or the state in this case.

      It's like abortion, or gender, or sexuality. It keeps the focus off things like wage or housing inequality, off lack of healthcare, off poverty and hunger, off rebalancing the tax-code or implementing wealth taxes. It ties up the media, political opponents, and the public at large in arguing about this instead of something that's far more likely to make a concrete difference in ordinary citizens' lives.

      Every news cycle spent arguing about social issues is one more that doesn't highlight how the poor continue to get poorer while the rich continue to get richer. It consumes chat rooms and social media threads and pulls focus from charity and celebrity statements.

      For example, how many celebrities started talking up their positions (against or for) abortion after Roe v Wade was overturned? They perhaps could have used an interview or awards appearance or any moment of publicity to highlight hunger or lack of housing or flat wages or high inflation. Not that all would, but they could have.

      Instead, most of them were consumed by "how dare they ban abortion." Just like social media was consumed by the same sentiment. Just like how a lot of non-Right people in Louisiana, and (hopefully if you are Right) some who aren't in that state, will be consumed and distracted by this 10C thing.

      Bitching about Louisiana requiring the 10C to be in classrooms means less focus going onto issues that would impact wealth and how wealth moves. Makes it less likely anything of meaningful consequence will change that while people are hot and bothered and pouring time and resources into overturning the 10C law.

      And, regardless of how that works out, the fanatics will just tee up several more issues that are basically the same thing dressed up differently. Some social issue the Right's base wants, that will either annoy or enrage Centralists, that will enrage Leftists ... and keep them from dialing down on something like wealth inequality or lack of healthcare access.

      They'll have the time. Everyone's distracted with the last handful of social issues, so there's no real rush in packaging up a few more to be on deck whenever one of the old ones is finally seen off.

      So the rich keep getting richer. Which is exactly what they want from their bought and paid for politicians. To not rock the boat so the flow of money continues to fill wealthy ponds. Who has time to care about how thirsty poor people are since the river of wealth never streams past them so they can sip some? We have to beat back this 10C thing, and guarantee non-gendered bathrooms, and stop them from banning library books, and roll back their abortion bans, and ...., and ...., and ...

      It's not about not caring about a social issue. It's about figuring out ways to not play the game your opponent wants you to play. If they pick the game, do you think they pick a game where a loss hurts them? A game where they don't know how to play, or have to play at a disadvantage?

      And it's about understanding what issues could make other issues less dangerous. Banning abortion, for example, even in cases where it's medically necessary to safeguard the mother's life, is absolutely terrible. Evil.

      But if most people in the country weren't too poor to travel to a less regressive state to seek needed medical care, the abortion bans would be less dire. Right now, with so many people living paycheck to paycheck, one minor incident away from their lives exploding into a major disaster, the abortion bans are crippling. If most women knew that, if the worst happened, they could simply take a round trip plane ride to a modern state and receive the medical care they need ... the abortion thing wouldn't literally be life or death.

      It'd just be the fanatics being evil dickheads.

      But with so many people crushed so far down on the wealth scales that they couldn't reasonably afford to take steps to lessen the impacts of things the Right Fanatics are implementing, these asshole moves skew more to a critical side than they would otherwise.

      It robs Peter and Paul to ensure neither of them can affect Judas' riches. Just Win Baby.

      38 votes
      1. chocobean
        Link Parent
        Beautifully put. There's really only one issue to fight about, as far as I'm aware, and it's which one to eat first.

        Beautifully put.

        There's really only one issue to fight about, as far as I'm aware, and it's which one to eat first.

        1 vote
      2. nul
        Link Parent
        Dude, are you a politician or something? You really seem to know your shit.

        Dude, are you a politician or something? You really seem to know your shit.

      3. [2]
        updawg
        Link Parent
        How do you always get all this information out so coherently? I feel like I have the information stored in my brain to discuss things at this level of detail like you always do, but I don't really...

        How do you always get all this information out so coherently? I feel like I have the information stored in my brain to discuss things at this level of detail like you always do, but I don't really have the ability to actually get it out coherently in such a well-ordered and well-thought-out manner.

        11 votes
        1. timo
          Link Parent
          Not OP, but practice and writing structure help a lot!

          Not OP, but practice and writing structure help a lot!

          4 votes
    2. [2]
      patience_limited
      Link Parent
      This map explains why Louisiana can get away with it. The U.S. Federal Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit (Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi) is so packed with reactionaries that the case will...

      This map explains why Louisiana can get away with it. The U.S. Federal Court of Appeals for the 5th Circuit (Texas, Louisiana, Mississippi) is so packed with reactionaries that the case will quickly escalate to the reactionary U.S. Supreme Court. The current U.S. Supreme Court is clearly itching to redefine "separation of Church and State" in favor of Christian religious fundamentalism.

      17 votes
      1. vord
        Link Parent
        They're gonna have a tougher time with this one than Roe, even with the conservative justices. It's pretty damn unambiguous, even from the very first time it was tested in 1878,

        They're gonna have a tougher time with this one than Roe, even with the conservative justices. It's pretty damn unambiguous, even from the very first time it was tested in 1878,

        17 votes
  5. [14]
    updawg
    Link
    Can anyone explain why it says he signed, then says he didn't approve it and the period to sign it has lapsed?

    Can anyone explain why it says he signed, then says he didn't approve it and the period to sign it has lapsed?

    5 votes
    1. [13]
      unkz
      Link Parent
      I think the second part about not signing is an error. There's an official state provided photo of him signing bills at a signing ceremony for this and some other bills....

      I think the second part about not signing is an error. There's an official state provided photo of him signing bills at a signing ceremony for this and some other bills.

      https://www.audacy.com/wwl/news/state/landry-signs-private-school-voucher-10-commandments-bills

      That bill was one of several education bills Landry signed while in Lafayette. Landry also signed into law measures to reduce mandates for teachers, changing the state's grading system to a 10-point system, and requiring public school teachers to display the Ten Commandments in their classrooms.

      Landry got biblical when defending the new Ten Commandments law.

      "If you want to respect the rule of law, you have to respect the original law giver, Moses," Landry said.

      9 votes
      1. [12]
        Omnicrola
        Link Parent
        It is fucking hilarious the amount of deliberate misrepresentation happening in this single statement. Citing Moses as the person to give respect to for establishing "the law". Within the context...

        "If you want to respect the rule of law, you have to respect the original law giver, Moses," Landry said.

        It is fucking hilarious the amount of deliberate misrepresentation happening in this single statement.

        1. Citing Moses as the person to give respect to for establishing "the law". Within the context of the Christian religion, that would be God. Moses was the secretary and PR front man.

        2. One might also argue that this inherently violates the first commandment on the very list of commandments Landry is referring to.

        3. The 10 commandments are superseded in the New Testament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Commandment. If you're going to elevate laws from your Christian religion to try and indoctrinate kids with, at least go with the more current ones.

        18 votes
        1. [6]
          Akir
          Link Parent
          The thing that has ruined Christianity, in my personal opinion, is meta-Christianity. At least here in the US, there are so many Christian sects that in order to get along they don’t consider...

          The thing that has ruined Christianity, in my personal opinion, is meta-Christianity. At least here in the US, there are so many Christian sects that in order to get along they don’t consider themselves to be Methodists or Baptists or Adventists or whatnot, they consider themselves to be “Christian”. Catholics were at one time fairly immune to this, but in recent years they seem to have been folding themselves into the crowd as well. Because of this identity they have given themselves, they tend to get a lot of their opinions from their friends who may not necessarily be a part of their church, forming a sort of “Pop Christianity”, if you will. If your church is OK with abortion, for instance, and all of the people around you are against it, chances are you will join with them and adopt their way of talking and thinking.

          Church leaders tend to be smart people. A lot of them hold doctorates in divinity. Even if they aren’t formally educated, they generally spend years of their life studying their religious documents and works of other people who have been studying religion. meta-Christianity means that these leaders have their individual influence over their flock diminished. As human beings, they are also influenced by the crowd they preach to, so they are being indirectly influenced by pop Christianity as well.

          What I’m trying to get at is that I’m not at all surprised at this display of sacrilege. The person making the statement could very easily not care about God or Christianity at all; the statement is entirely performative. In the era of meta-Christianity, the performance is the point, especially when it comes to politicians. Of the two main US Presidential candidates, I would say that Biden appears to have a much more authentic connection to his religion, but the loud and performative pop Christianity of Trump has resulted in the lion’s share of the Christian vote to go to him.

          14 votes
          1. TheRtRevKaiser
            Link Parent
            I agree with this, with a few differences, and it's something I've thought a lot about. I think what it is that you're thinking of is the rise of Evangelicalism. Part of the spread of that...

            I agree with this, with a few differences, and it's something I've thought a lot about. I think what it is that you're thinking of is the rise of Evangelicalism. Part of the spread of that movement was the rise of leaders outside the traditional denominational structures - people like Pat Robertson and James Dobson. They built networks of Evangelical Christians that bypassed the existing structures, like TV and Radio broadcasts, newsletters, etc. There are absolutely still mainline churches, but there's a reason that you've seen several of them experience major splits in the last couple of decades as evangelical wings developed or were strengthened and increasingly clashed with the traditional leadership of those denominations. We're at the point now where you could go to an evangelical Methodist church, and evangelical Baptist church, or an evangelical Presbyterian church and the differences would be pretty negligible. There probably would still be theological differences, but I suspect they'd be minimized. There are, though, still plenty of churches in the US that are pretty firmly not evangelical, like the Episcopal church, the remaining United Methodist church, the Evangelical Lutheran synod (ironically), and the Presbyterian Church (U.S.A). There are others, too, but those are the ones that come to mind. The traditionally black denominations don't map neatly into this dichotomy in every case, since black theology developed separately for so many years.

            I kind of disagree with your last point, though. There are 50+ decades of development of evangelical theology, and the actions of hardcore, right-wing evangelicals often do go hand-in-hand with their theology, it's just that much of their theology leads to conclusions that most people, and many christians, find abhorrent.

            A really good read that has a lot to say about the development of evangelical theology is Jesus and John Wayne by Kristin Kobes Du Mez.

            12 votes
          2. [2]
            RobotOverlord525
            Link Parent
            I like to say that "culture is stronger than religion." It's why Christians can get hung up over homosexuality in the '90s without worrying about the rest of the Law (as famously lambasted in The...

            I like to say that "culture is stronger than religion." It's why Christians can get hung up over homosexuality in the '90s without worrying about the rest of the Law (as famously lambasted in The West Wing). It's why prosperity doctrine could be so popular despite its theological absurdity. And it's why your average Christian is certain that good people go to heaven and bad people go to hell, which is ruled over by Satan.

            Pop Christianity indeed.

            12 votes
            1. Raistlin
              Link Parent
              Also, when people die, they become angels. I can talk to grandma's ghost sometimes, who's an angel in Heaven. Maybe I reincarnate, I dunno! People just believe whatever the hell they want to...

              Also, when people die, they become angels. I can talk to grandma's ghost sometimes, who's an angel in Heaven. Maybe I reincarnate, I dunno!

              People just believe whatever the hell they want to believe, and seek out whoever fits their already existing paradigm.

              4 votes
          3. chocobean
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Modern Preachers are basically content creators following an older, offline algorithm: their flock unsubscribes when they talk about loving the enemy or hypocrisy, and their flock donations swell...

            Modern Preachers are basically content creators following an older, offline algorithm: their flock unsubscribes when they talk about loving the enemy or hypocrisy, and their flock donations swell when they make hateful speeches about "the other", and the Sinner Definitely Not You© of the decade.

            Maybe it's magic in D&D, or letting your kids watch TV, maybe it's the pride parade, maybe it's whatever it is that makes your flock feel good about themselves because yay "thank God I'm not like that sinner over there

            Even normal preachers get pushed harder and harder and harder to take a stand, with everything on the line. Take this unhealthy landscape and extend it over several generations: the good Christian preacher is out of a job and can't support their families. The go with the flow algorithm preacher is taking in millions.

            There's nothing new under the sun, the OG Preacher said, everything that's being done has been done before.

            Just like how the media landscape chasing views, or the SEO landscape churning out garbage, eventually results are so terrible that the young will give up on them entirely and find better content some way else. Maybe it's not a good thing for us all to return to liturgical worship, where personal opinions are extremely limited and considered optional. We'll see in a couple centuries or sooner.

            7 votes
          4. unkz
            Link Parent
            For something to have ruined Christianity, it would have had to have been good to begin with. "Pop Christianity" as you put it is in my opinion the only thing improving Christianity -- it's only...

            For something to have ruined Christianity, it would have had to have been good to begin with. "Pop Christianity" as you put it is in my opinion the only thing improving Christianity -- it's only new school churches that don't, for example, universally hate gay people and seek to constantly oppress women. In fact, IMO it's the only the coevolution of the church with modern morality that is going to give Christianity a future. Churches that stay stuck in the past are eventually going to fall so out of step with the rest of society that they will simply cease to exist, which you can see pretty visibly in attendance numbers.

            2 votes
        2. [3]
          saturnV
          Link Parent
          Surely the original laws are the Code of Hammurabi, why don't they put those on the wall?

          Surely the original laws are the Code of Hammurabi, why don't they put those on the wall?

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            redwall_hp
            Link Parent
            The Hammurabi stele is one of the oldest preserved sets of laws, but it's honestly not that old. It dates to around 1750 BCE. The Old Kingdom period of ancient Egypt (2600 BCE) was a fairly...

            The Hammurabi stele is one of the oldest preserved sets of laws, but it's honestly not that old. It dates to around 1750 BCE.

            The Old Kingdom period of ancient Egypt (2600 BCE) was a fairly advanced civilization with law. Though we lack preserved legal codes, we know that they valued order, morality, justice and truth. These concepts were reflected in the ideal of maat, which was also a deity.

            10 votes
            1. Raistlin
              Link Parent
              And even in that region, there's older Babylonian and Akkadian law codes we know existed.

              And even in that region, there's older Babylonian and Akkadian law codes we know existed.

              3 votes
        3. [2]
          unkz
          Link Parent
          I don’t know, it seems pretty clear that the Ten Commandments (and the rest of the Mosaic law) stand:

          I don’t know, it seems pretty clear that the Ten Commandments (and the rest of the Mosaic law) stand:

          For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

          4 votes
          1. sparksbet
            Link Parent
            There are a variety of different theological interpretations on exactly how much of Mosaic law remains. There are passages from the New Testament that can be pretty clearly interpreted as meaning...

            There are a variety of different theological interpretations on exactly how much of Mosaic law remains. There are passages from the New Testament that can be pretty clearly interpreted as meaning certain Mosaic laws like keeping kosher are no longer required. Most lay Christians don't know the theology here, but they follow the customs of their church which almost always means the Ten Commandments are still valid but other large portions of Old Testament law are not.

            4 votes
  6. [2]
    Halfloaf
    Link
    For anyone else that is curious, the full bill may be found here: https://legiscan.com/LA/text/HB71/id/3004342/Louisiana-2024-HB71-Enrolled.pdf

    For anyone else that is curious, the full bill may be found here:

    https://legiscan.com/LA/text/HB71/id/3004342/Louisiana-2024-HB71-Enrolled.pdf

    1 vote
    1. updawg
      Link Parent
      Interesting that it reads more like a court finding or filing than a law in the way that I am used to seeing them.

      Interesting that it reads more like a court finding or filing than a law in the way that I am used to seeing them.

      1 vote