Original Quartz link: https://qz.com/google-remote-work-policy-reversal-ironic-1850520264 I think regardless of what equilibrium is reached, we need to do something about the truly absurdist waste...
I think regardless of what equilibrium is reached, we need to do something about the truly absurdist waste of life energy that 45min-1.5hour commutes + needlessly long work days is.
As someone who did temporarily have a 4 day work week at his last job, I did love having the 3 day weekends and I did enjoy the peace and quiet before everyone else in my office showed up and...
As someone who did temporarily have a 4 day work week at his last job, I did love having the 3 day weekends and I did enjoy the peace and quiet before everyone else in my office showed up and after they left for an hour.
However, the 10 hour days do feel long, and I felt like I didn't get to spend as much time with my kids on the weekdays in between me getting home and them going to bed.
Personally I'm hoping for 5 days a week at 6 hours each, because I really want the extra hour of sleep in the morning each day, and the extra hour in the evening to prepare a nice dinner.
Personally I'm hoping for 5 days a week at 6 hours each, because I really want the extra hour of sleep in the morning each day, and the extra hour in the evening to prepare a nice dinner.
4 days at 8 hours each while working remotely would be the dream. Without the commute you probably get 1-2 hours of your day back anyway, plus the 3 day weekends
4 days at 8 hours each while working remotely would be the dream. Without the commute you probably get 1-2 hours of your day back anyway, plus the 3 day weekends
The entire daycare system needs to be completely changed. Not only is the pricing for them just absurd, but the hours they have make it extremely difficult for a lot of parents. The ones that do...
The entire daycare system needs to be completely changed. Not only is the pricing for them just absurd, but the hours they have make it extremely difficult for a lot of parents. The ones that do have good hours (6am-5pm) are just so insanely expensive that most families cannot afford them. A daycare absolutely should not cost almost as much as a low end college tuition…
The price is because of past issues where daycares mistreated children. You have mandated ratios of adults to kids, training requirements (CPR), square footage requirements, and so forth. If you...
The price is because of past issues where daycares mistreated children. You have mandated ratios of adults to kids, training requirements (CPR), square footage requirements, and so forth. If you need one adult for every three kids, that means three families need to effectively hire a full time worker for their baby's care - which is not cheap - and then pay their share of rent, management costs, etc. These are not high margin businesses.
I would say that the fault here lies on overbearing regulation rather than the history of abusive daycares. Involving children in any law seems to make our lawyers rabidly willing to pass...
I would say that the fault here lies on overbearing regulation rather than the history of abusive daycares. Involving children in any law seems to make our lawyers rabidly willing to pass anything, no matter how self destructive it is, in the name of protecting children.
This is also how we get parents getting arrested for stupid things like kids walking to school on their own and the general paranoia around abductions. If we were to just chill a bit we would have a much better society and it would be far easier to be parents.
In the name of preventing the occasional death we have prevented a significant number of possible new lives we could be sharing this planet with.
I really don't think these kinds of regulations are overbearing. As much as we tend to underestimate children, they are still mentally very fragile. These regulations exist to prevent things that...
I really don't think these kinds of regulations are overbearing. As much as we tend to underestimate children, they are still mentally very fragile. These regulations exist to prevent things that will cause mental/emotional trauma that are very hard to ameliorate. Things like square footage requirements may seem a bit much at first, but imagine having a kid that is afraid of crowds because they were constantly put in crowded areas and overstimulated.
I perfectly agree with you about parents being paranoid being a problem, especially because that kind of behavior can also be abusive and traumatic to the child, but I don't think these kinds of requirements are paranoia. There should absolutely be a ground floor when it comes to standards of care for children.
You have to measure consequences. What's worse? A kid being overstimulated because the day care is too small or a family being unable to have a kid because they can't afford it? You might lose 10...
You have to measure consequences. What's worse? A kid being overstimulated because the day care is too small or a family being unable to have a kid because they can't afford it?
You might lose 10 percent of a kids total lifetime production to a bad daycare. You lose 100 percent of a kid who is never born. Both in terms of economics and in terms of joy and the unmeasurable good of human life.
I do see sense in there being some regulation, but I think it's important to not let it go overboard and remember that your unintentional and unseen consequences may be catastrophic. A deficit of kids takes 20 years to really start to hurt.
This might be controversial, but given our lack of meaningful progress against climate change and the 8 billion (and counting) world population, I think the kid being overstimulated is the worse...
What's worse? A kid being overstimulated because the day care is too small or a family being unable to have a kid because they can't afford it?
This might be controversial, but given our lack of meaningful progress against climate change and the 8 billion (and counting) world population, I think the kid being overstimulated is the worse outcome. Now if your hypothetical were about kids that are already born being sent to an overcrowded daycare vs their families not being able to afford daycare at all (and maybe having to forego a second income stream since one parent has to be fulltime caretaker), then that's a different conversation.
If it's a deficit of kids you're worried about, I think the best way to solve that is to make adoption easier for qualified parents who want to, and welcome more immigrants to keep a demographic balance.
Personally speaking I find it overwhelmingly preferable to not have a kid than to have them and give them a traumatic upbringing. My personal philosophy is strong in utilitarianism, but I feel...
Personally speaking I find it overwhelmingly preferable to not have a kid than to have them and give them a traumatic upbringing.
My personal philosophy is strong in utilitarianism, but I feel that your definition of "happiness" is very different than mine. People are not work units; they are people first and foremost, with needs and desires and feelings. I would consider abandoning those factors in favor of economic capabilities as unethical at best, and immoral at worst.
Nobody has a kid because they want a source of labor.
This is so reductive though. Are we defined through our traumas or are we defined through our accomplishments and our lives? My parents were in all sorts of shit through their life. This attitude...
and give them a traumatic upbringing.
This is so reductive though. Are we defined through our traumas or are we defined through our accomplishments and our lives?
My parents were in all sorts of shit through their life. This attitude world have resulted in my life simply not existing.
Yes. Those are not mutually exclusive. One of the major problems with that question is that those traumas often affect one's ability to make those accomplishments, which could be considered as...
This is so reductive though. Are we defined through our traumas or are we defined through our accomplishments and our lives?
Yes. Those are not mutually exclusive.
One of the major problems with that question is that those traumas often affect one's ability to make those accomplishments, which could be considered as meaning they are robbed of the life they could have had would they not have experienced those traumas.
It could be argued that some traumas can lead to a better and more rich character. As someone who has been through a lot of childhood trauma I think both are correct. For instance, trauma can make someone more empathetic, but they could also become so empathetic that it affects their lives in negative ways. I recently met someone who is living near the poverty line because of this effect.
Man, I may have low standards but I'm not defining accomplishment very high here. A McDonald's meal can be enjoyed deeply. A walk through a city. Sharing time with others in basically any...
affect one's ability to make those accomplishments
Man, I may have low standards but I'm not defining accomplishment very high here. A McDonald's meal can be enjoyed deeply. A walk through a city. Sharing time with others in basically any capacity.
This world is full to the brim with things to see and take enjoyment in, and even the most meager of lives are still worth living. Wealth and ability are great, we should seek them too, but no human will be perfected from any life lived by almost any trauma.
(There are some exceptions. They are rare.)
And I don't think traumas build character either. I don't think they are good, I just think that the value of a human life lived almost always outweighs any possible trauma they may face.
I never said that people should be protected from all trauma. That's quite simply an impossible goal. I am saying that we know that childhood trauma can be highly damaging, and that these...
I never said that people should be protected from all trauma. That's quite simply an impossible goal.
I am saying that we know that childhood trauma can be highly damaging, and that these regulations on childcare providers are very low bars that help to prevent those traumas from happening, which is why they are a net positive for both the child and society.
And to point out what may or may not be obvious, these regulations also represent an immediate increase in quality of life for those children when those requirements are not met.
I don't think there is anything more to say about this subject, so I'll just make this my last reply about it.
We saw what happened to that with colleges. The only way to make something cheaper and more accessable is to take steps to make those things cheaper and more accessable. Giving people money raises...
We saw what happened to that with colleges. The only way to make something cheaper and more accessable is to take steps to make those things cheaper and more accessable. Giving people money raises prices and not much else.
Quality of life goes down when you have too many kids or when you suffocate parents and end up with too few. In the name of happy day cares we are screwing the quality of life of everyone in the...
Quality of life goes down when you have too many kids or when you suffocate parents and end up with too few. In the name of happy day cares we are screwing the quality of life of everyone in the long term.
In my case, I'm fortunate enough that my wife is able to stay home with the kids, though it's not easy financially. We decided that it wouldn't make sense for my wife to work since most of her...
In my case, I'm fortunate enough that my wife is able to stay home with the kids, though it's not easy financially. We decided that it wouldn't make sense for my wife to work since most of her income would go towards Day Care costs.
Almost the entirety of my wife's income goes to childcare, but she feels the need to remain in the workforce so she can continue to have a career after the kids are grown. It's a significant...
Almost the entirety of my wife's income goes to childcare, but she feels the need to remain in the workforce so she can continue to have a career after the kids are grown. It's a significant source of stress to do the logistics though, and I wish things were better structured to enable it.
I understand that completely! My wife is a veteran, and is going to go to school once all of our kids are in school so she can get a degree and start working herself, but she's also contemplating...
I understand that completely! My wife is a veteran, and is going to go to school once all of our kids are in school so she can get a degree and start working herself, but she's also contemplating being a Stay at Home Mom full time as well. It just depends on what we feel fits our families needs the best.
See I honestly dunno how anybody gets anything done 9-5. I find way too many meetings get booked, so many folk need something and distract you and generally there's no time to think. I used to do...
See I honestly dunno how anybody gets anything done 9-5. I find way too many meetings get booked, so many folk need something and distract you and generally there's no time to think.
I used to do 4 on and 4 off doing 8am til 8pm, that was delightful. An hour to prep my day, then I had time for calls and meetings during the week but could use the 4 hours after that for my focused workload time. The big downside was with it rotating I had a load of weekends on so missed a lot of meetings as a result. If I could pick my ideal I'd do Monday to Thursday 8am til 8pm and have Friday, Saturday and Sunday off with flexibility to work on a Friday for calls with senior leadership or other areas of the business if needed. My company have been fantastic to work for, I've been promoted a few times in the last 3 years and I get paid well so honestly don't mind giving up some of my own time when genuinely needed. Folk might say that's dumb and if I'm off then I shouldn't work but my mentality has gotten me a lot of success so far and means that my bosses know that if I need something, either time off or if I'm late, it's not an issue cause chances are I've already made that time up 3 times over already.
I think that's what a lot of companies miss out on, if staff feel appreciated and well treated, they'll be willing to go the extra mile for the business and if they then need so.e time or run late, don't make it a huge deal cause the employee goodwill is pretty crucial to business success.
We recently had a run of bank holidays (public holidays) here in the UK. I was working 4 days a week for a few weeks and it was a glimpse of how much better my work/life balance could be. I'm...
We recently had a run of bank holidays (public holidays) here in the UK. I was working 4 days a week for a few weeks and it was a glimpse of how much better my work/life balance could be. I'm seriously considering requesting a 4 day week at my next review/salary meeting.
As with a lot of things, I think time will solve this. Current C level staff in their 50s+ run the show. They have a way of working that they like and its their way or the highway. There is a high...
As with a lot of things, I think time will solve this.
Current C level staff in their 50s+ run the show. They have a way of working that they like and its their way or the highway. There is a high ranking boss at my work that has his department delay a lot of his emails until 4:45 every day to emulate the old days of mail going out at that time.
The next layer of staff are mostly in their 30s and 40s and are trying to implement modern practices, but its a tough slog. When this group reaches the top jobs change will happen, but its a slow process.
As the current C levels drop off and are replaced by younger folk who have experienced WFH they will be lauded has heroes for saving money on office space.
I'm skeptical of the notion that generational turnover leads to progress. It seems to me that a great many young-ish managerial types are invested in the grindset mentality, which I think is at...
I'm skeptical of the notion that generational turnover leads to progress. It seems to me that a great many young-ish managerial types are invested in the grindset mentality, which I think is at least partly a defense mechanism because they know on some level that they're being screwed out of life.
I think mostly it bothers me because I can see relying on generational turnover becoming a justification for complacency and inaction. It encourages a "wait and see" attitude rather than a "work to make it better" one.
For all the people who don't seem to understand why people would want to work remote instead of in-person, keep in mind that many of these companies have offices in extremely dense and/or...
For all the people who don't seem to understand why people would want to work remote instead of in-person, keep in mind that many of these companies have offices in extremely dense and/or expensive areas. There may simply not be available housing nearby regardless of income, and even if they are the pricing on them is going to be insane. The alternative is living relatively far away, but that means being forced to drive in (and contributing to) extremely congested traffic conditions. So in effect, being forced to work in person instead of remote is effectively either a fairly steep paycut or a workday that has been extended with unpaid labor.
And if you want to know the extent of how irrational this attitude of "you must work in an office" is, I am the perfect example. The company I worked for closed the office I worked at, but instead of having me work remote, I am now working in-person... at the boss's house. It's a fairly small business. They are so far from me that it takes most of the range of my poor first-generation Nissan Leaf, so I have to charge it there or I can't go home. And in addition to that I have anywhere between 1.5-2 hours in traffic round trip every day. I work on a computer on systems that are all in the cloud, and my phone is VoIP, so there is absolutely no reason for me to work where I am working except the boss's neurotic fear that I'll not be doing work. Which is especially ironic given that they're not working from home either so there's nobody actually watching over me.
I really should. But every time I try I get depressed. TBH I'm burnt out on work in general. I want to just quit but I can't lose my health insurance because I have some very expensive health...
I really should. But every time I try I get depressed.
TBH I'm burnt out on work in general. I want to just quit but I can't lose my health insurance because I have some very expensive health issues that still need to be dealt with.
Would highly suggest reaching out to a therapist and once you get things sorted, look for a new job. That is no way to work and there is no need to basically kill yourself to do so. I had massive...
Would highly suggest reaching out to a therapist and once you get things sorted, look for a new job. That is no way to work and there is no need to basically kill yourself to do so.
I had massive burn out at my old job in 2019 due to a poor manager constantly pushing everyone's nose to the grindstone. Resulted in a team of about twenty to shrink down to maybe five. Saw the writing in the wall, got a new job and am now making double what I did when I started at my old job in less than three years.
Other than time, it doesn't cost anything to apply to other places! Trick is not to quit your current one until you have another lined up.
That is... The most down-right, unfathomable, absolutely insane example of micro-managing I have ever come across. What the hell. I'm so sorry to hear anyone would impose this crazy stipulation on...
That is... The most down-right, unfathomable, absolutely insane example of micro-managing I have ever come across. What the hell. I'm so sorry to hear anyone would impose this crazy stipulation on you, especially in a role that obviously requires no such thing.
I will never again, unless the market forces to me to, work a non-remote position. I do not mind if a company wants me to work at the office occasionally, that's fine and there are many merits to working in an office environment where a team can all be next to each other. My current job asks me to come in every Wednesday. They don't mind if I come in after 09:00 and leave before 16:00 which means I can catch a 20 minute train to work that costs me £8.00.
I love going in on Wednesday and catching up with my colleagues and whilst we don't get any real work done, I definitely feel the benefit of seeing my colleagues, swapping stories and teaching each other stuff. My company accepts nothing productive will really get done, so they throw in the mandatory catch-up meetings in on that day so we can fly through them all together, have a laugh and get out.
My previous company was a two hour drive away. They asked me to come in once every two months and paid for my travel. Absolutely acceptable to.
Both of these companies are getting a lot more out of me that if they tried to drag me in every day. I generally keep to my hours, but I have no problem at all logging in at random hours to try and fix things or help out another colleague. I have issue with them messaging me out of hours and will happily respond, because they offer me a lot of flexibility and I think it works both ways.
I will be really sad if the market moves back toward mandatory office working by the next time I'm hunting for a job.
This sucks for those of us relying on remote jobs for accessibility - for a brief period many workplaces didn't require special circumstances or permission to work from home. But it seems we're...
This sucks for those of us relying on remote jobs for accessibility - for a brief period many workplaces didn't require special circumstances or permission to work from home. But it seems we're moving backwards again, where remote workers become less integrated compared to in-person workers, and getting the "privilege" to be left out more often requires jumping through a bunch of hoops.
I'm glad the company I work for was remote even before the pandemic and won't be changing. But damn, this trend will reduce my options going forward.
Yeah, I feel you on that - I'm not sure most abled folks really understand just how much longer things can take when you're disabled. Waiting on someone to drive you, getting ready to go...
Yeah, I feel you on that - I'm not sure most abled folks really understand just how much longer things can take when you're disabled. Waiting on someone to drive you, getting ready to go somewhere, traveling by paratransit, etc. Something like working from home can make a big difference in how much you're able to do in a day, and not just at work.
I hope your transit situation changes as you're hoping, and you can get back to driving! :)
Goodness, being in that situation must be infuriatingly irritating! I assume you're not in the US, right? Because here the Americans with Disabilities Act would require the owner of your building...
Goodness, being in that situation must be infuriatingly irritating! I assume you're not in the US, right? Because here the Americans with Disabilities Act would require the owner of your building to install a ramp for you if they don't already have one.
That's awesome! I'm so used to dealing with organizations that don't want to fix anything, which is why I was so quick to assume the worst. But it's so nice when you're dealing with people who are...
That's awesome! I'm so used to dealing with organizations that don't want to fix anything, which is why I was so quick to assume the worst. But it's so nice when you're dealing with people who are actually interested in working with you to solve your problems! I just wish it were the default.
I always get a bit concerned about this topic. I work in IT where remote work seems far more common. I intentionally moved to a very small town in a rural area. I grew up in a rural area and I...
I always get a bit concerned about this topic. I work in IT where remote work seems far more common. I intentionally moved to a very small town in a rural area. I grew up in a rural area and I desperately missed the peace and quiet. I have several coworkers who are in a similar situation. It would be very difficult for us to go to an office somewhere, if not impossible.
I have no problems with someone who feels more comfortable in an office. But I don’t like being forced. I don’t enjoy being in an office. I’m far more productive now, as well. I understand some will point out issues around management, collaboration, and “spur-of-the-moment” ideas.
But I’ve now worked more than one remote job and I’ve come to realize that that is not an issue with remote work, it’s an issue with leadership, operating procedures, and management style. Some of the time-tested “wisdom” that helps you lead a productive and collaborative team no longer applies in remote work. Perhaps hindsight is 20/20, but that seems obvious to me now. Instead of adapting, they just give in…and maybe there’s a real estate dimension involved.
I worked for a company in the remote work industry itself from 2018-2022, making software for virtual offices. We were kind of naturally ahead of the curve on WFH so when the pandemic hit, we...
I worked for a company in the remote work industry itself from 2018-2022, making software for virtual offices. We were kind of naturally ahead of the curve on WFH so when the pandemic hit, we didn't have trouble swapping to being a completely remote workplace ourselves (although the early months were absolutely bananas for other reasons). Since then I've only worked remote, and even before then it was very flexible.
I've recently realized that I am one of those people who is more productive and happier in an office. There was a decline in my enjoyment of my work and therefore its quality and it took a lot of reflection to pin this down among various confounding variables. I won't get into details too much because it'd take forever, just trust that the only logical conclusion I'm left with is that full time remote work as I was doing it is not great for my mental health.
But... I am still extremely pro-remote. Firstly and most importantly, what is true for me is not true for everyone. Secondly, I am still open to remote jobs because of location, as with you and your coworkers. I live in one of the poorer parts of Canada that has traditionally lagged in job development and median salary; without remote work, there would be nothing for me here commensurate with my expertise and career goals. The success I've had in my career has enabled me to be a reliable support for my family and I feel it is important for me to stay near them for various reasons. I do not want to have to move to a larger city at this point in my life.
So my next job is still remote, but I negotiated a stipend for a co-working space rental. I think this is a good setup for people like me - while it won't be perfect (I'll miss whiteboarding with coworkers), I get the social aspect, I get to get out of the house, and I'll get the "body doubling" benefits. I think any company that digs in their heels about remote work would still hate it, unfortunately, because it fixes my issues more than theirs.
In the future, I am going to continue to seek out remote-first companies as well, rather than remote roles at companies that have more traditional offices. They'll be better at figuring out the new ways to manage people and projects for that environment, plus every employee is on more equal footing.
We went fully remote except for those who work up in the fab in March 2020. We were on site only before then. There was some scrambling because people needed hardware, and well, pandemic. But we...
We went fully remote except for those who work up in the fab in March 2020. We were on site only before then. There was some scrambling because people needed hardware, and well, pandemic. But we found we performed so much better from home. We hit records for all of our metrics. Then May 2022, they forced everyone back into the office. Mandatory unless you have a doctor's note. There was a hybrid option for eligible departments/roles for...1 day/week at home, with some amount of "virtual days." Certain roles could get full remote, but only if you were not at a manufacturing site. Productivity tanked, quality issues everywhere. Everyone complained and we got what we have now, 2 days remote with 13 virtual days. And then they made Tuesday/Thursday mandatory in office days because..."collaboration." It's stupid and we don't have enough parking for it.
The one thing this all made me realize is that flexibility is the best way to handle it. How does an employee work best? Maybe co-working spaces, maybe a designated cube area where employees can come on site to work if needed, and remote options. But mandatory in office only pisses off everyone and contributes to poor morale and burnout.
They are all following the same script written by the same consultants. And they are all selling as, "After a lot of thinking... we're a family and we need connection" No, you need to resecure...
They are all following the same script written by the same consultants. And they are all selling as, "After a lot of thinking... we're a family and we need connection"
No, you need to resecure your commercial real estate investments
LOL. Haven't we heard this so many times before? You are a family until you are no longer needed. You will be and can be laid off without any cause because you are a family member.
we're a family and we need connection"
LOL. Haven't we heard this so many times before? You are a family until you are no longer needed. You will be and can be laid off without any cause because you are a family member.
You've hit the nail on the head. So many companies are buckling under the cost of facilities that they're not using. My company has started to rent out sections of our office building that we own...
You've hit the nail on the head. So many companies are buckling under the cost of facilities that they're not using. My company has started to rent out sections of our office building that we own because 90% of our work can be done remotely and people prefer to work remote. We're lucky that we own our buildings and have been able to find tenants because spaces in our buildings are now generating revenue.
I am a teacher and honestly have a vastly different experience when it comes to in-person/remote work. However, my wife works remotely, as does my mother and my mother-in-law. On one hand, I fully...
I am a teacher and honestly have a vastly different experience when it comes to in-person/remote work. However, my wife works remotely, as does my mother and my mother-in-law. On one hand, I fully see the benefits of remote work but I also see some of the downsides. For example, my wife has a hard time getting away from her work. She finds it difficult to set boundaries and can't truly disconnect. Even though she works in a dedicated office within the house, she loses that decompression time she used to have during her drive home. Now she gets offline and immediately starts to do other things around the house. From my mother and MIL's experience, I have noticed their social skills be drastically effected, more so with my MIL. Because they are only dealing with people over the phone or in Zoom, they aren't getting that face-to-face social time and it is seriously affecting them. Also, not everyone is more productive while working from home. There are still people out there who take advantage of not being supervised and don't get their work done. The fact that there are extensions that try simulate your mouse moving/typing to get around monitoring software is just an example of what people try to do to make it look like they are working when they aren't.
From a teaching standpoint, I will never willingly work at a school that does remote learning that isn't in a college setting. If K-12 education ever goes the route of remote learning full time, that is when I get out of teaching. It just does not work for the masses and COVID showed how much kids fall behind with remote learning.
Remote learning for K-12 has to be one of the toughest things. Even many adults don't have the attention span of all-day Zoom sessions. I can't imagine what that's like for the kids. Not to...
Remote learning for K-12 has to be one of the toughest things. Even many adults don't have the attention span of all-day Zoom sessions. I can't imagine what that's like for the kids. Not to mention the lack of social development for the kids. My brother works for a college and noticed a severe decline in development for incoming students after COVID. Those are important development years that need more than sitting in front of a laptop.
Couldn't she just go out in the drive way and sit in the car for an hour at the end of the day. She could even start it up and drive it around in circles for an hour to get the full experience. As...
Couldn't she just go out in the drive way and sit in the car for an hour at the end of the day. She could even start it up and drive it around in circles for an hour to get the full experience.
As for the whole monitoring thing, my question has always been: why do you need to measure his mouse movement to find out if someone isn't getting his work done? He's either doing his work or he's not. If he can get it done and then take his dog for a walk, what's wrong with that?
Same. It was hard for me (took nearly a year) to learn to set good boundaries, but these days I’m almost always signed off and out the door on a walk at 5
Same. It was hard for me (took nearly a year) to learn to set good boundaries, but these days I’m almost always signed off and out the door on a walk at 5
Yup, teacher here as well. I teach pre-university (17-18 y/o) kids so home based learning wasn't as bad as it was with younger levels. It's still no substitute for face-to-face. The Covid batch...
Yup, teacher here as well. I teach pre-university (17-18 y/o) kids so home based learning wasn't as bad as it was with younger levels. It's still no substitute for face-to-face. The Covid batch really suffered academically and socially.
Teaching is an outlier though. From what I can see most generic white collar jobs can be done just as well remotely as in the office.
I personally strongly prefer working in person. And as someone at one of the companies that is finally enforcing their return to office policy I’m glad. Honestly if you’re getting paid “in office”...
I personally strongly prefer working in person. And as someone at one of the companies that is finally enforcing their return to office policy I’m glad. Honestly if you’re getting paid “in office” dollars it’s plenty fair to require you in the office 3 days per week. Google for example will let you work remotely anywhere in the US, depending on your team, for reduced pay. You’re still doing great financial especially if you’re remote from Kansas.
I think 10 years ago I would have definitely preferred in-office. But now, with young kids, working from home has been amazing. I have an office away from the commotion so I'm still able to deep...
I think 10 years ago I would have definitely preferred in-office. But now, with young kids, working from home has been amazing. I have an office away from the commotion so I'm still able to deep focus but instead of breaking it up with water cooler chat I get to see my kids grow up.
And as someone at one of the companies that is finally enforcing their return to office policy I’m glad.
I understand the sentiment, but I would be lying if I said it doesn't feel like rubbing someone else's preferences in the dirt to make your work environment better.
This is huge. My last company sent us home when my oldest kid was 2 and I’ve been home with my new company ever since. I get to see my kids throughout the day and take them to school and pick them...
instead of breaking it up with water cooler chat I get to see my kids grow up.
This is huge. My last company sent us home when my oldest kid was 2 and I’ve been home with my new company ever since. I get to see my kids throughout the day and take them to school and pick them up. Yes, it makes my work hours odd but I still get my stuff done. My company is talking about RTO and that is a deal-breaker for me. I will be updating my resume if that happens. We’re all too accustomed to the flexibility and involvement now and are actually mid-move to a very small town knowing that I can work from anywhere.
To be fair - I don't want my co workers forced back into the office if it's going to ruin their work experience. That'll just make them quit, or at least have them less engaged. A much better...
To be fair - I don't want my co workers forced back into the office if it's going to ruin their work experience. That'll just make them quit, or at least have them less engaged.
A much better solution, at least for my employer, would be to consolidate offices. I think it's a weird optics thing. I suspect they don't want the HQ to have half of the buildings empty. But if they could close down half and double the density in the remaining buildings things would be much better for me.
Edit:
For me I have a good option - I can (and very likely will) move to a different office where a have 3 excellent team members that show up 3-4 days a week each. I don't want to give the impression that I'm rooting for people to hate their jobs more. I'm not a decision maker here and don't try to convince remote team members to come back in.
Yeah having small children is the main reason I don't want to deal with the commute to the office. When they're old enough to be 'latch-key kids' I'd be happy to go into the office. But for now it...
I think 10 years ago I would have definitely preferred in-office. But now, with young kids, working from home has been amazing.
Yeah having small children is the main reason I don't want to deal with the commute to the office. When they're old enough to be 'latch-key kids' I'd be happy to go into the office. But for now it just makes all the general life logistics so much simpler.
What makes "in office" work more valuable than remote work? If I'm just as accessible when working remotely (via Zoom, Slack, Email, etc.) as I would be in the office, what's the differentiation?...
What makes "in office" work more valuable than remote work? If I'm just as accessible when working remotely (via Zoom, Slack, Email, etc.) as I would be in the office, what's the differentiation? These companies argue that one isn't fully connected unless they're in the office, but, at least anecdotally, that's not been my experience having worked in both situations.
In fact, I'd argue that employees working remotely are more valuable by nature of costing the employer less in office space and on premise resources. Sure, they might have to pay for a home office budget, but that's a one time expense vs. a physical cubicle or office, AC, electricity, etc.
It's the speed of the feedback loop for me. I worked remotely for 2 years during the pandemic at my old job, but now I work in the same room with 6 other people. All I have to do is start talking...
It's the speed of the feedback loop for me. I worked remotely for 2 years during the pandemic at my old job, but now I work in the same room with 6 other people. All I have to do is start talking to get a quick response on something.
I get quickly de-motivated when every one of my quick questions for the day becomes a 15 minute wait, then a few minutes of trying to convey the situation, then if that fails finally finding a...
I get quickly de-motivated when every one of my quick questions for the day becomes a 15 minute wait, then a few minutes of trying to convey the situation, then if that fails finally finding a meeting room and setting up a screen share. In the right environment that would instead be "hey can you look at this?" "Oh yeah, no do it this way" "Thanks :D".
On the opposite side, wfh has been amazing for me because I can just work on my work in peace without someone interrupting me every 5 minutes with questions or coming up to my desk to talk to me.
On the opposite side, wfh has been amazing for me because I can just work on my work in peace without someone interrupting me every 5 minutes with questions or coming up to my desk to talk to me.
And being able to work somewhere that isn’t a desk is awesome too. I know it’s not for everyone, but I love working in bed. I do also have a very strong “this is work time” and “this is me time”....
And being able to work somewhere that isn’t a desk is awesome too. I know it’s not for everyone, but I love working in bed. I do also have a very strong “this is work time” and “this is me time”. I’m very good at compartmentalizing work away from personal stuff, but it took a lot of learning on my part and getting a much more supportive job.
Same. I’ve been at my company for two years and I don’t want to leave. I was at the big red west coast university for a year and a half and I wanted to quit every day.
Same. I’ve been at my company for two years and I don’t want to leave. I was at the big red west coast university for a year and a half and I wanted to quit every day.
I wanted to go into academia after I finished my bachelor's but my master's thoroughly cured me of that... my work-life balance and the amount of guidance I get from my manager vs my advisor in...
I wanted to go into academia after I finished my bachelor's but my master's thoroughly cured me of that... my work-life balance and the amount of guidance I get from my manager vs my advisor in uni is SO much better now.
This is my experience too for the most part. What I’ve found especially interesting is that a lot of the queries I get throughout any given day that I can’t get to immediately are miraculously...
This is my experience too for the most part. What I’ve found especially interesting is that a lot of the queries I get throughout any given day that I can’t get to immediately are miraculously solved by the time I get to them. In other words, people are more capable than they realise and sometimes a lack of instant communication, such as in an office environment, is beneficial. Obviously I’m not expecting my colleagues to have an intricate understanding of my subject area, after all that’s exactly why I’m there, but use me for that purpose and not for answering trivial queries which don’t require an expert.
Absolutely. I had to get noise cancelling headphones with a proper microphone for drowning people out and telling them to stay away. It helps that we get along though.
Absolutely. I had to get noise cancelling headphones with a proper microphone for drowning people out and telling them to stay away. It helps that we get along though.
I think my team may have been better prepared for this since we started using Slack in its infancy to speed up communication around the office, and it was already a great fit for us even...
I think my team may have been better prepared for this since we started using Slack in its infancy to speed up communication around the office, and it was already a great fit for us even in-person. In a department of about 30, we were all already used to just messaging each other and hanging around in Slack all day chatting even when we were physically in the same place. When we transitioned to fully remote work for the pandemic, it wasn't really that big of a shift. Our work is highly suited to everything being digital, though, and we all know how to take quick screencaps of what we're doing if problems arise.
I'd probably be annoyed too if I had an unjustified 15 minute wait every time I wanted to contact a team member for anything, but at least in my team everyone just responds either instantly or when they next have the opportunity. Having our communications go through a fast but asynchronous method like chat also allows us to turn it off and let there be that 15 minute lag when there needs to be one to get our own work done, as opposed to just being sitting ducks getting our focus constantly shattered by people with questions to the point where nothing can get finished.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I get your point, especially if the workplace isn't suited to digital collaboration or if the team isn't all-in on how they communicate digitally. What worries me about this push to return to in-person is it's starting to happen in companies that should have been the best situated to handle full remote well, and it seems like it's a one-size-fits-all approach that's being applied even to teams where all-digital is the more productive work style. I'd absolutely find a different job before I'd ever return to a desk where people can just walk up, interrupt me, and request crap in person that they'd have known better than to put in writing.
I don't really feel like that's the usual experience for most people with office jobs. From my experience and what I gather, most people get a team that's geographically distributed (parts of the...
I don't really feel like that's the usual experience for most people with office jobs. From my experience and what I gather, most people get a team that's geographically distributed (parts of the team are spread along 2-3 different offices) leading to constant zoom meetings and email waits anyway or people you are working with are in a different office or building, leading to having to walk for 10-15 minutes for the question or just emailing them anyway.
That's actually how my last job was before the pandemic. A team of 25 people across 5-6 offices with a group of 6 in my office that all had their own fish bowl offices. I had to go walk down the...
That's actually how my last job was before the pandemic. A team of 25 people across 5-6 offices with a group of 6 in my office that all had their own fish bowl offices. I had to go walk down the hall to talk to someone, and we all tended to hole up in our offices. We also worked with the other offices a lot over Teams pre-pandemic, so I was at least thankful with how easily it went fully remote during the pandemic. It didn't feel nearly as efficient as it does now though with about the same size group in the same room, being able to ask a question from my desk. I did need a headset for making a shared environment work better so I'm not always distracted.
For some, it's simply the psychological aspect of having a defined work space. I can struggle to focus at home because I've long since mentally marked my house as a leisure space. In high school...
For some, it's simply the psychological aspect of having a defined work space. I can struggle to focus at home because I've long since mentally marked my house as a leisure space. In high school and college I'd get all my homework done on campus, so I've only done recreational things at home. I know I'm not alone in that problem.
I also know that home offices aren't viable for many people. It can range from a lack of space for one, to the people in the house not respecting the fact they're working. I remember many people venting about their spouses expecting them to do regular chores or watch the kids on reddit near the start of the pandemic, going as far as to interrupt virtual meetings to tell them to do stuff. They apparently couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that they still had the same work responsibilities despite being at home.
I think it depends on where you are in your career. My last job was 100% remote - there was no office for the company anywhere in the world. I was doing web development, something I started...
I think it depends on where you are in your career. My last job was 100% remote - there was no office for the company anywhere in the world. I was doing web development, something I started learning at 8 years old. And half of the tech there I already had a good bit of experience with, so I felt pretty comfortable. But I've done a big career change by moving to a BIG company and most of the tech here is proprietary. So generally, I'm pretty lost. Learning in person is much better for me in my current scenario. But if my co-workers all work from home I'm not actually learning in person. My understanding is I'm not alone and that data shows people new to a career really benefit from working in person - and the only way to make that effective is for experienced workers to be there with them.
In a remote setting what I would need would be an 8 hour open phone call with >1 experienced co-workers to get an optimal amount of mentorship and education (Edit: this is something I've done before for new hires during the pandemic and was told it was the best remote onboarding experience they'd ever had). Even then - that's kind of shallow and sucks the fun out of working together with others. Being able to ask people for help in person, and realize passively when I can help others, is so much better.
For me a job is not just a means to an end. I actually really like programming and learning about different tools. I put in thousands of hours of education before I graduated college, most of that self-directed. Being able to sit next to a dozen more-experienced programmers is why I want to be in the office.
I think it's okay to want to work in the office every day, but I'm not sure I agree with pushing that view on everyone else. My company is full hybrid - no mandates, do whatever you want. Myself...
I think it's okay to want to work in the office every day, but I'm not sure I agree with pushing that view on everyone else. My company is full hybrid - no mandates, do whatever you want. Myself and most of my team come in 2 days a week. Some people come in 5, some people rarely/never come in at all. And it's fine. I feel like I get less done on actual in-office days, in any case. Definitely less heads-down work time and more chatting and socializing.
Overall, balance is a good thing but the actual parameters of the balance are going to be based on the person, and shouldn't be universally mandated (IMO). There is no one-size-fits-all.
I think this is part of a sudden, dramatic shift in negotiating power in the tech labor market. In the past decade (up until late 2022), software engineers and related workers held the power to...
I think this is part of a sudden, dramatic shift in negotiating power in the tech labor market. In the past decade (up until late 2022), software engineers and related workers held the power to insist on incredible salaries and perks. Companies were absolutely desperate to hire good tech talent. The industry led the way in embracing remote work, in part because tech companies are natural willing to try out technology, but also because it became a new perk companies had to offer in order to be competitive in the cut-throat job market.
Now that the tech labor market has flipped on its head, companies can collectively drop these "perks" without any consequences.
I wonder if CEOs that make changes like this consider how many human lives they impact with decisions like this.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. Many people were refusing in-person jobs, so some companies reluctantly allowed remote hiring because they wouldn't be able to attract anyone to their...
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. Many people were refusing in-person jobs, so some companies reluctantly allowed remote hiring because they wouldn't be able to attract anyone to their office jobs. Now, not only can they drop the perks without consequences, some of the earlier companies seemed to be doing it to get people to quit so they could avoid official layoffs / unemployment. Obviously that will become less effective as the job market worsens and people have nowhere better to go, but it seemed to be a perk for companies who did it early-on, knowing that people would run for the exits.
I’m honestly one of those people who is digging in their heels that they never want to go back to the office 100%. If I have to, occasionally, I’ll come in, but I don’t want to be in an office...
I’m honestly one of those people who is digging in their heels that they never want to go back to the office 100%. If I have to, occasionally, I’ll come in, but I don’t want to be in an office with endless interruptions and I’ve learned I just need my adderall, some music or an audiobook, my dog and my work to be productive.
This all the way. Also I just don't find the whole "humans are social creatures" rhetoric that convincing since I have a social life totally separate from my work (they've already got my...
This all the way. Also I just don't find the whole "humans are social creatures" rhetoric that convincing since I have a social life totally separate from my work (they've already got my healthcare, they're not getting my socialization too) and really don't need to be pseudo-psychoanalyzed by middle managers still peddling the latest plagiarism of MBTI.
Sure some positions require in-person stuff. Not mine. I've been remote now for 7 years and am still quite sane, quickly available, highly productive, and nailing every performance review. Requiring me to go back to an office would be asking me to give up half of what I enjoy about my work, and in return giving me more distractions, annoyances, drama, expenses, and wasted time, and of course for no more pay. It's just an instant quit from me.
In honestly doesn't feel like it's shifted that much. In the beginning employees were mostly happy to get out of the office, spend more time with their family, find time to take care of chores,...
In honestly doesn't feel like it's shifted that much. In the beginning employees were mostly happy to get out of the office, spend more time with their family, find time to take care of chores, avoid the commute, get away from annoying co-workers and so on. While employers were writing hot takes on how much they love sitting in the car for an hour every morning, they can't work without a designated work building, and the importance of "office culture".
Now 3 years later it looks like the vast majority of employees prefer remote work and companies are still trying to convince people to give it all up.
I'm a fan of going into the office once or twice a month to see people. I don't feel like making that long commute on a regular basis, though. That said, I work in IT. We've mostly been more...
I'm a fan of going into the office once or twice a month to see people. I don't feel like making that long commute on a regular basis, though. That said, I work in IT. We've mostly been more effective working from home.
Original Quartz link: https://qz.com/google-remote-work-policy-reversal-ironic-1850520264
I think regardless of what equilibrium is reached, we need to do something about the truly absurdist waste of life energy that 45min-1.5hour commutes + needlessly long work days is.
4 day work week seems fair
As someone who did temporarily have a 4 day work week at his last job, I did love having the 3 day weekends and I did enjoy the peace and quiet before everyone else in my office showed up and after they left for an hour.
However, the 10 hour days do feel long, and I felt like I didn't get to spend as much time with my kids on the weekdays in between me getting home and them going to bed.
To be clear I mean 4 days at 8 hours each.
Ahhh, then yes, that would be ideal
Personally I'm hoping for 5 days a week at 6 hours each, because I really want the extra hour of sleep in the morning each day, and the extra hour in the evening to prepare a nice dinner.
4 days at 8 hours each while working remotely would be the dream. Without the commute you probably get 1-2 hours of your day back anyway, plus the 3 day weekends
That’s already how I do it. It’s definitely nice.
How do parents manage 10 hour workdays? Daycares don’t run that long.
The entire daycare system needs to be completely changed. Not only is the pricing for them just absurd, but the hours they have make it extremely difficult for a lot of parents. The ones that do have good hours (6am-5pm) are just so insanely expensive that most families cannot afford them. A daycare absolutely should not cost almost as much as a low end college tuition…
The price is because of past issues where daycares mistreated children. You have mandated ratios of adults to kids, training requirements (CPR), square footage requirements, and so forth. If you need one adult for every three kids, that means three families need to effectively hire a full time worker for their baby's care - which is not cheap - and then pay their share of rent, management costs, etc. These are not high margin businesses.
I would say that the fault here lies on overbearing regulation rather than the history of abusive daycares. Involving children in any law seems to make our lawyers rabidly willing to pass anything, no matter how self destructive it is, in the name of protecting children.
This is also how we get parents getting arrested for stupid things like kids walking to school on their own and the general paranoia around abductions. If we were to just chill a bit we would have a much better society and it would be far easier to be parents.
In the name of preventing the occasional death we have prevented a significant number of possible new lives we could be sharing this planet with.
I really don't think these kinds of regulations are overbearing. As much as we tend to underestimate children, they are still mentally very fragile. These regulations exist to prevent things that will cause mental/emotional trauma that are very hard to ameliorate. Things like square footage requirements may seem a bit much at first, but imagine having a kid that is afraid of crowds because they were constantly put in crowded areas and overstimulated.
I perfectly agree with you about parents being paranoid being a problem, especially because that kind of behavior can also be abusive and traumatic to the child, but I don't think these kinds of requirements are paranoia. There should absolutely be a ground floor when it comes to standards of care for children.
You have to measure consequences. What's worse? A kid being overstimulated because the day care is too small or a family being unable to have a kid because they can't afford it?
You might lose 10 percent of a kids total lifetime production to a bad daycare. You lose 100 percent of a kid who is never born. Both in terms of economics and in terms of joy and the unmeasurable good of human life.
I do see sense in there being some regulation, but I think it's important to not let it go overboard and remember that your unintentional and unseen consequences may be catastrophic. A deficit of kids takes 20 years to really start to hurt.
This might be controversial, but given our lack of meaningful progress against climate change and the 8 billion (and counting) world population, I think the kid being overstimulated is the worse outcome. Now if your hypothetical were about kids that are already born being sent to an overcrowded daycare vs their families not being able to afford daycare at all (and maybe having to forego a second income stream since one parent has to be fulltime caretaker), then that's a different conversation.
If it's a deficit of kids you're worried about, I think the best way to solve that is to make adoption easier for qualified parents who want to, and welcome more immigrants to keep a demographic balance.
Personally speaking I find it overwhelmingly preferable to not have a kid than to have them and give them a traumatic upbringing.
My personal philosophy is strong in utilitarianism, but I feel that your definition of "happiness" is very different than mine. People are not work units; they are people first and foremost, with needs and desires and feelings. I would consider abandoning those factors in favor of economic capabilities as unethical at best, and immoral at worst.
Nobody has a kid because they want a source of labor.
This is so reductive though. Are we defined through our traumas or are we defined through our accomplishments and our lives?
My parents were in all sorts of shit through their life. This attitude world have resulted in my life simply not existing.
Yes. Those are not mutually exclusive.
One of the major problems with that question is that those traumas often affect one's ability to make those accomplishments, which could be considered as meaning they are robbed of the life they could have had would they not have experienced those traumas.
It could be argued that some traumas can lead to a better and more rich character. As someone who has been through a lot of childhood trauma I think both are correct. For instance, trauma can make someone more empathetic, but they could also become so empathetic that it affects their lives in negative ways. I recently met someone who is living near the poverty line because of this effect.
Man, I may have low standards but I'm not defining accomplishment very high here. A McDonald's meal can be enjoyed deeply. A walk through a city. Sharing time with others in basically any capacity.
This world is full to the brim with things to see and take enjoyment in, and even the most meager of lives are still worth living. Wealth and ability are great, we should seek them too, but no human will be perfected from any life lived by almost any trauma.
(There are some exceptions. They are rare.)
And I don't think traumas build character either. I don't think they are good, I just think that the value of a human life lived almost always outweighs any possible trauma they may face.
I never said that people should be protected from all trauma. That's quite simply an impossible goal.
I am saying that we know that childhood trauma can be highly damaging, and that these regulations on childcare providers are very low bars that help to prevent those traumas from happening, which is why they are a net positive for both the child and society.
And to point out what may or may not be obvious, these regulations also represent an immediate increase in quality of life for those children when those requirements are not met.
I don't think there is anything more to say about this subject, so I'll just make this my last reply about it.
Or we could do more to make sure that people have enough money to pay for childcare.
We saw what happened to that with colleges. The only way to make something cheaper and more accessable is to take steps to make those things cheaper and more accessable. Giving people money raises prices and not much else.
Really underselling what a profit motive does to children.
Umm, so quality of life doesn't matter?
Quality of life goes down when you have too many kids or when you suffocate parents and end up with too few. In the name of happy day cares we are screwing the quality of life of everyone in the long term.
It's amazing how you keep blaming day cares as if that's the problem. A little thought goes a long way.
I'm blaming overbearing regulation passed in the name of protecting children that makes it ever harder to be a parent, not just day care.
In my case, I'm fortunate enough that my wife is able to stay home with the kids, though it's not easy financially. We decided that it wouldn't make sense for my wife to work since most of her income would go towards Day Care costs.
Almost the entirety of my wife's income goes to childcare, but she feels the need to remain in the workforce so she can continue to have a career after the kids are grown. It's a significant source of stress to do the logistics though, and I wish things were better structured to enable it.
I understand that completely! My wife is a veteran, and is going to go to school once all of our kids are in school so she can get a degree and start working herself, but she's also contemplating being a Stay at Home Mom full time as well. It just depends on what we feel fits our families needs the best.
See I honestly dunno how anybody gets anything done 9-5. I find way too many meetings get booked, so many folk need something and distract you and generally there's no time to think.
I used to do 4 on and 4 off doing 8am til 8pm, that was delightful. An hour to prep my day, then I had time for calls and meetings during the week but could use the 4 hours after that for my focused workload time. The big downside was with it rotating I had a load of weekends on so missed a lot of meetings as a result. If I could pick my ideal I'd do Monday to Thursday 8am til 8pm and have Friday, Saturday and Sunday off with flexibility to work on a Friday for calls with senior leadership or other areas of the business if needed. My company have been fantastic to work for, I've been promoted a few times in the last 3 years and I get paid well so honestly don't mind giving up some of my own time when genuinely needed. Folk might say that's dumb and if I'm off then I shouldn't work but my mentality has gotten me a lot of success so far and means that my bosses know that if I need something, either time off or if I'm late, it's not an issue cause chances are I've already made that time up 3 times over already.
I think that's what a lot of companies miss out on, if staff feel appreciated and well treated, they'll be willing to go the extra mile for the business and if they then need so.e time or run late, don't make it a huge deal cause the employee goodwill is pretty crucial to business success.
We recently had a run of bank holidays (public holidays) here in the UK. I was working 4 days a week for a few weeks and it was a glimpse of how much better my work/life balance could be. I'm seriously considering requesting a 4 day week at my next review/salary meeting.
As with a lot of things, I think time will solve this.
Current C level staff in their 50s+ run the show. They have a way of working that they like and its their way or the highway. There is a high ranking boss at my work that has his department delay a lot of his emails until 4:45 every day to emulate the old days of mail going out at that time.
The next layer of staff are mostly in their 30s and 40s and are trying to implement modern practices, but its a tough slog. When this group reaches the top jobs change will happen, but its a slow process.
As the current C levels drop off and are replaced by younger folk who have experienced WFH they will be lauded has heroes for saving money on office space.
I'm skeptical of the notion that generational turnover leads to progress. It seems to me that a great many young-ish managerial types are invested in the grindset mentality, which I think is at least partly a defense mechanism because they know on some level that they're being screwed out of life.
I think mostly it bothers me because I can see relying on generational turnover becoming a justification for complacency and inaction. It encourages a "wait and see" attitude rather than a "work to make it better" one.
For all the people who don't seem to understand why people would want to work remote instead of in-person, keep in mind that many of these companies have offices in extremely dense and/or expensive areas. There may simply not be available housing nearby regardless of income, and even if they are the pricing on them is going to be insane. The alternative is living relatively far away, but that means being forced to drive in (and contributing to) extremely congested traffic conditions. So in effect, being forced to work in person instead of remote is effectively either a fairly steep paycut or a workday that has been extended with unpaid labor.
And if you want to know the extent of how irrational this attitude of "you must work in an office" is, I am the perfect example. The company I worked for closed the office I worked at, but instead of having me work remote, I am now working in-person... at the boss's house. It's a fairly small business. They are so far from me that it takes most of the range of my poor first-generation Nissan Leaf, so I have to charge it there or I can't go home. And in addition to that I have anywhere between 1.5-2 hours in traffic round trip every day. I work on a computer on systems that are all in the cloud, and my phone is VoIP, so there is absolutely no reason for me to work where I am working except the boss's neurotic fear that I'll not be doing work. Which is especially ironic given that they're not working from home either so there's nobody actually watching over me.
That's actually ridiculous. Are you looking for a new job?
I really should. But every time I try I get depressed.
TBH I'm burnt out on work in general. I want to just quit but I can't lose my health insurance because I have some very expensive health issues that still need to be dealt with.
Would highly suggest reaching out to a therapist and once you get things sorted, look for a new job. That is no way to work and there is no need to basically kill yourself to do so.
I had massive burn out at my old job in 2019 due to a poor manager constantly pushing everyone's nose to the grindstone. Resulted in a team of about twenty to shrink down to maybe five. Saw the writing in the wall, got a new job and am now making double what I did when I started at my old job in less than three years.
Other than time, it doesn't cost anything to apply to other places! Trick is not to quit your current one until you have another lined up.
That is... The most down-right, unfathomable, absolutely insane example of micro-managing I have ever come across. What the hell. I'm so sorry to hear anyone would impose this crazy stipulation on you, especially in a role that obviously requires no such thing.
I will never again, unless the market forces to me to, work a non-remote position. I do not mind if a company wants me to work at the office occasionally, that's fine and there are many merits to working in an office environment where a team can all be next to each other. My current job asks me to come in every Wednesday. They don't mind if I come in after 09:00 and leave before 16:00 which means I can catch a 20 minute train to work that costs me £8.00.
I love going in on Wednesday and catching up with my colleagues and whilst we don't get any real work done, I definitely feel the benefit of seeing my colleagues, swapping stories and teaching each other stuff. My company accepts nothing productive will really get done, so they throw in the mandatory catch-up meetings in on that day so we can fly through them all together, have a laugh and get out.
My previous company was a two hour drive away. They asked me to come in once every two months and paid for my travel. Absolutely acceptable to.
Both of these companies are getting a lot more out of me that if they tried to drag me in every day. I generally keep to my hours, but I have no problem at all logging in at random hours to try and fix things or help out another colleague. I have issue with them messaging me out of hours and will happily respond, because they offer me a lot of flexibility and I think it works both ways.
I will be really sad if the market moves back toward mandatory office working by the next time I'm hunting for a job.
This sucks for those of us relying on remote jobs for accessibility - for a brief period many workplaces didn't require special circumstances or permission to work from home. But it seems we're moving backwards again, where remote workers become less integrated compared to in-person workers, and getting the "privilege" to be left out more often requires jumping through a bunch of hoops.
I'm glad the company I work for was remote even before the pandemic and won't be changing. But damn, this trend will reduce my options going forward.
Yeah, I feel you on that - I'm not sure most abled folks really understand just how much longer things can take when you're disabled. Waiting on someone to drive you, getting ready to go somewhere, traveling by paratransit, etc. Something like working from home can make a big difference in how much you're able to do in a day, and not just at work.
I hope your transit situation changes as you're hoping, and you can get back to driving! :)
Goodness, being in that situation must be infuriatingly irritating! I assume you're not in the US, right? Because here the Americans with Disabilities Act would require the owner of your building to install a ramp for you if they don't already have one.
That's awesome! I'm so used to dealing with organizations that don't want to fix anything, which is why I was so quick to assume the worst. But it's so nice when you're dealing with people who are actually interested in working with you to solve your problems! I just wish it were the default.
I always get a bit concerned about this topic. I work in IT where remote work seems far more common. I intentionally moved to a very small town in a rural area. I grew up in a rural area and I desperately missed the peace and quiet. I have several coworkers who are in a similar situation. It would be very difficult for us to go to an office somewhere, if not impossible.
I have no problems with someone who feels more comfortable in an office. But I don’t like being forced. I don’t enjoy being in an office. I’m far more productive now, as well. I understand some will point out issues around management, collaboration, and “spur-of-the-moment” ideas.
But I’ve now worked more than one remote job and I’ve come to realize that that is not an issue with remote work, it’s an issue with leadership, operating procedures, and management style. Some of the time-tested “wisdom” that helps you lead a productive and collaborative team no longer applies in remote work. Perhaps hindsight is 20/20, but that seems obvious to me now. Instead of adapting, they just give in…and maybe there’s a real estate dimension involved.
I worked for a company in the remote work industry itself from 2018-2022, making software for virtual offices. We were kind of naturally ahead of the curve on WFH so when the pandemic hit, we didn't have trouble swapping to being a completely remote workplace ourselves (although the early months were absolutely bananas for other reasons). Since then I've only worked remote, and even before then it was very flexible.
I've recently realized that I am one of those people who is more productive and happier in an office. There was a decline in my enjoyment of my work and therefore its quality and it took a lot of reflection to pin this down among various confounding variables. I won't get into details too much because it'd take forever, just trust that the only logical conclusion I'm left with is that full time remote work as I was doing it is not great for my mental health.
But... I am still extremely pro-remote. Firstly and most importantly, what is true for me is not true for everyone. Secondly, I am still open to remote jobs because of location, as with you and your coworkers. I live in one of the poorer parts of Canada that has traditionally lagged in job development and median salary; without remote work, there would be nothing for me here commensurate with my expertise and career goals. The success I've had in my career has enabled me to be a reliable support for my family and I feel it is important for me to stay near them for various reasons. I do not want to have to move to a larger city at this point in my life.
So my next job is still remote, but I negotiated a stipend for a co-working space rental. I think this is a good setup for people like me - while it won't be perfect (I'll miss whiteboarding with coworkers), I get the social aspect, I get to get out of the house, and I'll get the "body doubling" benefits. I think any company that digs in their heels about remote work would still hate it, unfortunately, because it fixes my issues more than theirs.
In the future, I am going to continue to seek out remote-first companies as well, rather than remote roles at companies that have more traditional offices. They'll be better at figuring out the new ways to manage people and projects for that environment, plus every employee is on more equal footing.
We went fully remote except for those who work up in the fab in March 2020. We were on site only before then. There was some scrambling because people needed hardware, and well, pandemic. But we found we performed so much better from home. We hit records for all of our metrics. Then May 2022, they forced everyone back into the office. Mandatory unless you have a doctor's note. There was a hybrid option for eligible departments/roles for...1 day/week at home, with some amount of "virtual days." Certain roles could get full remote, but only if you were not at a manufacturing site. Productivity tanked, quality issues everywhere. Everyone complained and we got what we have now, 2 days remote with 13 virtual days. And then they made Tuesday/Thursday mandatory in office days because..."collaboration." It's stupid and we don't have enough parking for it.
The one thing this all made me realize is that flexibility is the best way to handle it. How does an employee work best? Maybe co-working spaces, maybe a designated cube area where employees can come on site to work if needed, and remote options. But mandatory in office only pisses off everyone and contributes to poor morale and burnout.
They are all following the same script written by the same consultants. And they are all selling as, "After a lot of thinking... we're a family and we need connection"
No, you need to resecure your commercial real estate investments
LOL. Haven't we heard this so many times before? You are a family until you are no longer needed. You will be and can be laid off without any cause because you are a family member.
To be fair, this is how it works in actual families too sometimes.
You've hit the nail on the head. So many companies are buckling under the cost of facilities that they're not using. My company has started to rent out sections of our office building that we own because 90% of our work can be done remotely and people prefer to work remote. We're lucky that we own our buildings and have been able to find tenants because spaces in our buildings are now generating revenue.
I am a teacher and honestly have a vastly different experience when it comes to in-person/remote work. However, my wife works remotely, as does my mother and my mother-in-law. On one hand, I fully see the benefits of remote work but I also see some of the downsides. For example, my wife has a hard time getting away from her work. She finds it difficult to set boundaries and can't truly disconnect. Even though she works in a dedicated office within the house, she loses that decompression time she used to have during her drive home. Now she gets offline and immediately starts to do other things around the house. From my mother and MIL's experience, I have noticed their social skills be drastically effected, more so with my MIL. Because they are only dealing with people over the phone or in Zoom, they aren't getting that face-to-face social time and it is seriously affecting them. Also, not everyone is more productive while working from home. There are still people out there who take advantage of not being supervised and don't get their work done. The fact that there are extensions that try simulate your mouse moving/typing to get around monitoring software is just an example of what people try to do to make it look like they are working when they aren't.
From a teaching standpoint, I will never willingly work at a school that does remote learning that isn't in a college setting. If K-12 education ever goes the route of remote learning full time, that is when I get out of teaching. It just does not work for the masses and COVID showed how much kids fall behind with remote learning.
Remote learning for K-12 has to be one of the toughest things. Even many adults don't have the attention span of all-day Zoom sessions. I can't imagine what that's like for the kids. Not to mention the lack of social development for the kids. My brother works for a college and noticed a severe decline in development for incoming students after COVID. Those are important development years that need more than sitting in front of a laptop.
Couldn't she just go out in the drive way and sit in the car for an hour at the end of the day. She could even start it up and drive it around in circles for an hour to get the full experience.
As for the whole monitoring thing, my question has always been: why do you need to measure his mouse movement to find out if someone isn't getting his work done? He's either doing his work or he's not. If he can get it done and then take his dog for a walk, what's wrong with that?
Not the person you replied to, but regarding end-of-day rituals, what worked for me was taking a walk before and after the workday.
Same. It was hard for me (took nearly a year) to learn to set good boundaries, but these days I’m almost always signed off and out the door on a walk at 5
Yup, teacher here as well. I teach pre-university (17-18 y/o) kids so home based learning wasn't as bad as it was with younger levels. It's still no substitute for face-to-face. The Covid batch really suffered academically and socially.
Teaching is an outlier though. From what I can see most generic white collar jobs can be done just as well remotely as in the office.
I personally strongly prefer working in person. And as someone at one of the companies that is finally enforcing their return to office policy I’m glad. Honestly if you’re getting paid “in office” dollars it’s plenty fair to require you in the office 3 days per week. Google for example will let you work remotely anywhere in the US, depending on your team, for reduced pay. You’re still doing great financial especially if you’re remote from Kansas.
I think 10 years ago I would have definitely preferred in-office. But now, with young kids, working from home has been amazing. I have an office away from the commotion so I'm still able to deep focus but instead of breaking it up with water cooler chat I get to see my kids grow up.
I understand the sentiment, but I would be lying if I said it doesn't feel like rubbing someone else's preferences in the dirt to make your work environment better.
This is huge. My last company sent us home when my oldest kid was 2 and I’ve been home with my new company ever since. I get to see my kids throughout the day and take them to school and pick them up. Yes, it makes my work hours odd but I still get my stuff done. My company is talking about RTO and that is a deal-breaker for me. I will be updating my resume if that happens. We’re all too accustomed to the flexibility and involvement now and are actually mid-move to a very small town knowing that I can work from anywhere.
To be fair - I don't want my co workers forced back into the office if it's going to ruin their work experience. That'll just make them quit, or at least have them less engaged.
A much better solution, at least for my employer, would be to consolidate offices. I think it's a weird optics thing. I suspect they don't want the HQ to have half of the buildings empty. But if they could close down half and double the density in the remaining buildings things would be much better for me.
Edit:
For me I have a good option - I can (and very likely will) move to a different office where a have 3 excellent team members that show up 3-4 days a week each. I don't want to give the impression that I'm rooting for people to hate their jobs more. I'm not a decision maker here and don't try to convince remote team members to come back in.
Yea fair enough, I probably misinterpreted you there, apologies.
Yeah having small children is the main reason I don't want to deal with the commute to the office. When they're old enough to be 'latch-key kids' I'd be happy to go into the office. But for now it just makes all the general life logistics so much simpler.
What makes "in office" work more valuable than remote work? If I'm just as accessible when working remotely (via Zoom, Slack, Email, etc.) as I would be in the office, what's the differentiation? These companies argue that one isn't fully connected unless they're in the office, but, at least anecdotally, that's not been my experience having worked in both situations.
In fact, I'd argue that employees working remotely are more valuable by nature of costing the employer less in office space and on premise resources. Sure, they might have to pay for a home office budget, but that's a one time expense vs. a physical cubicle or office, AC, electricity, etc.
It's the speed of the feedback loop for me. I worked remotely for 2 years during the pandemic at my old job, but now I work in the same room with 6 other people. All I have to do is start talking to get a quick response on something.
I get quickly de-motivated when every one of my quick questions for the day becomes a 15 minute wait, then a few minutes of trying to convey the situation, then if that fails finally finding a meeting room and setting up a screen share. In the right environment that would instead be "hey can you look at this?" "Oh yeah, no do it this way" "Thanks :D".
Exactly. My mind wanders so easily, and I stay on task better by being able to talk shit out on the fly. It keeps the ball of motivation rolling.
On the opposite side, wfh has been amazing for me because I can just work on my work in peace without someone interrupting me every 5 minutes with questions or coming up to my desk to talk to me.
Being able to get laundry done and play with my cats if I need a screen break is also a huge plus of wfh for me.
And being able to work somewhere that isn’t a desk is awesome too. I know it’s not for everyone, but I love working in bed. I do also have a very strong “this is work time” and “this is me time”. I’m very good at compartmentalizing work away from personal stuff, but it took a lot of learning on my part and getting a much more supportive job.
Yeah my job is super supportive which is definitely a huge factor. I honestly struck gold on that front
Same. I’ve been at my company for two years and I don’t want to leave. I was at the big red west coast university for a year and a half and I wanted to quit every day.
I wanted to go into academia after I finished my bachelor's but my master's thoroughly cured me of that... my work-life balance and the amount of guidance I get from my manager vs my advisor in uni is SO much better now.
This is my experience too for the most part. What I’ve found especially interesting is that a lot of the queries I get throughout any given day that I can’t get to immediately are miraculously solved by the time I get to them. In other words, people are more capable than they realise and sometimes a lack of instant communication, such as in an office environment, is beneficial. Obviously I’m not expecting my colleagues to have an intricate understanding of my subject area, after all that’s exactly why I’m there, but use me for that purpose and not for answering trivial queries which don’t require an expert.
Absolutely. I had to get noise cancelling headphones with a proper microphone for drowning people out and telling them to stay away. It helps that we get along though.
I think my team may have been better prepared for this since we started using Slack in its infancy to speed up communication around the office, and it was already a great fit for us even in-person. In a department of about 30, we were all already used to just messaging each other and hanging around in Slack all day chatting even when we were physically in the same place. When we transitioned to fully remote work for the pandemic, it wasn't really that big of a shift. Our work is highly suited to everything being digital, though, and we all know how to take quick screencaps of what we're doing if problems arise.
I'd probably be annoyed too if I had an unjustified 15 minute wait every time I wanted to contact a team member for anything, but at least in my team everyone just responds either instantly or when they next have the opportunity. Having our communications go through a fast but asynchronous method like chat also allows us to turn it off and let there be that 15 minute lag when there needs to be one to get our own work done, as opposed to just being sitting ducks getting our focus constantly shattered by people with questions to the point where nothing can get finished.
I guess what I'm trying to say is I get your point, especially if the workplace isn't suited to digital collaboration or if the team isn't all-in on how they communicate digitally. What worries me about this push to return to in-person is it's starting to happen in companies that should have been the best situated to handle full remote well, and it seems like it's a one-size-fits-all approach that's being applied even to teams where all-digital is the more productive work style. I'd absolutely find a different job before I'd ever return to a desk where people can just walk up, interrupt me, and request crap in person that they'd have known better than to put in writing.
I don't really feel like that's the usual experience for most people with office jobs. From my experience and what I gather, most people get a team that's geographically distributed (parts of the team are spread along 2-3 different offices) leading to constant zoom meetings and email waits anyway or people you are working with are in a different office or building, leading to having to walk for 10-15 minutes for the question or just emailing them anyway.
That's actually how my last job was before the pandemic. A team of 25 people across 5-6 offices with a group of 6 in my office that all had their own fish bowl offices. I had to go walk down the hall to talk to someone, and we all tended to hole up in our offices. We also worked with the other offices a lot over Teams pre-pandemic, so I was at least thankful with how easily it went fully remote during the pandemic. It didn't feel nearly as efficient as it does now though with about the same size group in the same room, being able to ask a question from my desk. I did need a headset for making a shared environment work better so I'm not always distracted.
For some, it's simply the psychological aspect of having a defined work space. I can struggle to focus at home because I've long since mentally marked my house as a leisure space. In high school and college I'd get all my homework done on campus, so I've only done recreational things at home. I know I'm not alone in that problem.
I also know that home offices aren't viable for many people. It can range from a lack of space for one, to the people in the house not respecting the fact they're working. I remember many people venting about their spouses expecting them to do regular chores or watch the kids on reddit near the start of the pandemic, going as far as to interrupt virtual meetings to tell them to do stuff. They apparently couldn't wrap their heads around the fact that they still had the same work responsibilities despite being at home.
I think it depends on where you are in your career. My last job was 100% remote - there was no office for the company anywhere in the world. I was doing web development, something I started learning at 8 years old. And half of the tech there I already had a good bit of experience with, so I felt pretty comfortable. But I've done a big career change by moving to a BIG company and most of the tech here is proprietary. So generally, I'm pretty lost. Learning in person is much better for me in my current scenario. But if my co-workers all work from home I'm not actually learning in person. My understanding is I'm not alone and that data shows people new to a career really benefit from working in person - and the only way to make that effective is for experienced workers to be there with them.
In a remote setting what I would need would be an 8 hour open phone call with >1 experienced co-workers to get an optimal amount of mentorship and education (Edit: this is something I've done before for new hires during the pandemic and was told it was the best remote onboarding experience they'd ever had). Even then - that's kind of shallow and sucks the fun out of working together with others. Being able to ask people for help in person, and realize passively when I can help others, is so much better.
For me a job is not just a means to an end. I actually really like programming and learning about different tools. I put in thousands of hours of education before I graduated college, most of that self-directed. Being able to sit next to a dozen more-experienced programmers is why I want to be in the office.
I think it's okay to want to work in the office every day, but I'm not sure I agree with pushing that view on everyone else. My company is full hybrid - no mandates, do whatever you want. Myself and most of my team come in 2 days a week. Some people come in 5, some people rarely/never come in at all. And it's fine. I feel like I get less done on actual in-office days, in any case. Definitely less heads-down work time and more chatting and socializing.
Overall, balance is a good thing but the actual parameters of the balance are going to be based on the person, and shouldn't be universally mandated (IMO). There is no one-size-fits-all.
I think this is the best option for everyone. Give people the freedom to do what works best for them and treat adults like adults.
I think this is part of a sudden, dramatic shift in negotiating power in the tech labor market. In the past decade (up until late 2022), software engineers and related workers held the power to insist on incredible salaries and perks. Companies were absolutely desperate to hire good tech talent. The industry led the way in embracing remote work, in part because tech companies are natural willing to try out technology, but also because it became a new perk companies had to offer in order to be competitive in the cut-throat job market.
Now that the tech labor market has flipped on its head, companies can collectively drop these "perks" without any consequences.
I wonder if CEOs that make changes like this consider how many human lives they impact with decisions like this.
Yeah, that's what I was thinking as well. Many people were refusing in-person jobs, so some companies reluctantly allowed remote hiring because they wouldn't be able to attract anyone to their office jobs. Now, not only can they drop the perks without consequences, some of the earlier companies seemed to be doing it to get people to quit so they could avoid official layoffs / unemployment. Obviously that will become less effective as the job market worsens and people have nowhere better to go, but it seemed to be a perk for companies who did it early-on, knowing that people would run for the exits.
Watching the shifting sentiments on this subject is endlessly fascinating.
I’m honestly one of those people who is digging in their heels that they never want to go back to the office 100%. If I have to, occasionally, I’ll come in, but I don’t want to be in an office with endless interruptions and I’ve learned I just need my adderall, some music or an audiobook, my dog and my work to be productive.
This all the way. Also I just don't find the whole "humans are social creatures" rhetoric that convincing since I have a social life totally separate from my work (they've already got my healthcare, they're not getting my socialization too) and really don't need to be pseudo-psychoanalyzed by middle managers still peddling the latest plagiarism of MBTI.
Sure some positions require in-person stuff. Not mine. I've been remote now for 7 years and am still quite sane, quickly available, highly productive, and nailing every performance review. Requiring me to go back to an office would be asking me to give up half of what I enjoy about my work, and in return giving me more distractions, annoyances, drama, expenses, and wasted time, and of course for no more pay. It's just an instant quit from me.
In honestly doesn't feel like it's shifted that much. In the beginning employees were mostly happy to get out of the office, spend more time with their family, find time to take care of chores, avoid the commute, get away from annoying co-workers and so on. While employers were writing hot takes on how much they love sitting in the car for an hour every morning, they can't work without a designated work building, and the importance of "office culture".
Now 3 years later it looks like the vast majority of employees prefer remote work and companies are still trying to convince people to give it all up.
I'm a fan of going into the office once or twice a month to see people. I don't feel like making that long commute on a regular basis, though. That said, I work in IT. We've mostly been more effective working from home.