I get the didactic reason for wanting to keep Debian 100% free, but for most people this is an absolute win. I opted to go with (K)Ubuntu rather than Debian on my new laptop solely because I...
I get the didactic reason for wanting to keep Debian 100% free, but for most people this is an absolute win. I opted to go with (K)Ubuntu rather than Debian on my new laptop solely because I didn't want to jump through hoops with firmware. I'm a computational scientist. I am absolutely a power user compared with the average person, but the "it just works" factor is very valuable.
I had this same reasoning for ~2 years when I was using Ubuntu on my personal computer. However I still ran into a ton of issues over time, GPU driver issues, audio issues, Ubuntu buggy ass UI...
I had this same reasoning for ~2 years when I was using Ubuntu on my personal computer. However I still ran into a ton of issues over time, GPU driver issues, audio issues, Ubuntu buggy ass UI issues, X server issues, boot issues, update failures, etc
I switched to Arch ~6 months ago and haven't had a single issue since then.
Honestly (and I full expect to be attacked for this), this is why I run Windows on all of my desktop machines. My servers are all Linux, but desktop / laptop? Always Windows.
I am absolutely a power user compared with the average person, but the "it just works" factor is very valuable.
Honestly (and I full expect to be attacked for this), this is why I run Windows on all of my desktop machines.
My servers are all Linux, but desktop / laptop? Always Windows.
See, where I'm at is the opposite, which is that Windows is sluggish, littered with bugs that I constantly run into, and very much not a "just works" OS for me, but Linux is, or at least has been...
See, where I'm at is the opposite, which is that Windows is sluggish, littered with bugs that I constantly run into, and very much not a "just works" OS for me, but Linux is, or at least has been for the better part of a decade. I'm not even saying you're wrong, it's just been the opposite of my experience.
I'm completely with you on this. I still use Linux on my laptop cause it's old and needs the help, but windows all the way on my desktop. Despite being an advocate against windows in the past...
I'm completely with you on this. I still use Linux on my laptop cause it's old and needs the help, but windows all the way on my desktop. Despite being an advocate against windows in the past there's not really much I can complain about anymore. I can't remember the last time I saw a bluescreen and it's nice to have a system where my graphics driver actually works more than 50% of the time. I don't have the enthusiasm for hours of configuring Linux distros like I used to. I just need a computer that's going to turn on and let me do my work.
I get that. My laptop is right now my only non-windows computer. I might eventually put Win11 back on it, but right now I'm kind of sick of windows' shit on mobile. And it does everything I need...
I get that. My laptop is right now my only non-windows computer. I might eventually put Win11 back on it, but right now I'm kind of sick of windows' shit on mobile. And it does everything I need it to right now.
The advantage used to be there until Windows 7, it used to be very difficult to migrate folks to Linux because Microsoft used to put efforts in their OS development. But ever since Windows 10/11,...
The advantage used to be there until Windows 7, it used to be very difficult to migrate folks to Linux because Microsoft used to put efforts in their OS development.
But ever since Windows 10/11, the level of forced updates and intrusive telemetry is such that it's as if Microsoft itself is prodding folks towards Linux!
GNU and the DFSG don't worry about unmodifiable chip firmware anyway. The justification is that they're basically a part of the hardware at that point. The thing with any ideology is rules are...
GNU and the DFSG don't worry about unmodifiable chip firmware anyway. The justification is that they're basically a part of the hardware at that point.
The thing with any ideology is rules are arbitraty lines in the sand. The above firmware example is one. The firmware example in the OP is another. My line that is cool with non-free on every Debian install is yet another.
There's very few effective ways to make firmware that cannot be extracted from a device. It's just a matter of having the skills to do so. And firmware is quite literally a binary blob; there's no...
There's very few effective ways to make firmware that cannot be extracted from a device. It's just a matter of having the skills to do so. And firmware is quite literally a binary blob; there's no documentation on how it works, so nobody knows what the firmware is actually doing, so it doesn't make it any more transparent to have it on your storage drive than it is hanging out in the device.
Firmware can be stored in one of four major categories; internally on the chip itself, on a mask ROM or PROM, on flash or an (E)EPROM, or in RAM. As far as I have seen, computer peripherals are the only ones that store firmware in RAM and require loading from an external process each time it's started. External (P)ROMs can be replaced. Flash and (E)EROMs can be rewritten. The only hard one to extract are the ones burnt directly into the chip, and you can't replace it without replacing the whole chip.
With all that being said, the main problem with these RAM-based firmware solution is mainly legal. That firmware is intellectual property, which means that the companies who made them can put essentially any legal restriction on them that they want. If they wanted, they could make their terms prevent you from running their hardware on Linux systems.
That being said, I don't know if there has been any kind of legal precedent in regards to this kind of firmware setup.
There's also a philosophical argument against them, but I assume you already know about that one.
Oh I see it, thank you for the detailed answer. I was thinking more in the line of Operational Systems (as in a whole cloud-based OS), as I remember reading somewhere something about Windows (as a...
Oh I see it, thank you for the detailed answer. I was thinking more in the line of Operational Systems (as in a whole cloud-based OS), as I remember reading somewhere something about Windows (as a OS) planning to go to the cloud, and thought there was some development on that that I've missed.
I think it’s simply the standard inclusion of non free firmware and drivers from the likes of Intel, Broadcom, NVIDIA etc. They have always been available on Debian but you had to add the repos...
I think it’s simply the standard inclusion of non free firmware and drivers from the likes of Intel, Broadcom, NVIDIA etc.
They have always been available on Debian but you had to add the repos after installation so the default installation was guaranteed to be compliant with the Debian free software goals.
Changing it to ship with these drivers changes it from a 100% compliant free operating system to one which includes proprietary drivers by default, and it sounds like that was a step too far for the author.
Edited to add:
For the standard user, getting support for your devices just got easier unless you were installing Debian because it was 100% free, in which case you have some hoops to jump through to remove it.
I’d say it’s more of a chore to remove than to add.
I’m a Linux user of 20+ years, so my opinion isn’t valid here. I know what Debian is good for and when to reach for it. I also don’t particularly care about non free software in the image.
I suspect most desktop users who install Debian do so because of its free licensing stance, or possibly because it’s upstream from Ubuntu… but I’m making stuff up at this point so I’ll shut up!
You could always use the non-free install isos, which have existed for a long time. Getting that iso was still a hoop to jump through, and I'm glad it's being removed. Maybe next the contents of...
but you had to add the repos after installation
You could always use the non-free install isos, which have existed for a long time. Getting that iso was still a hoop to jump through, and I'm glad it's being removed.
Maybe next the contents of deb-multimedia can make it into the official repos!
fwiw I used Debian on my desktop because it's stable and doesn't mess me about and after 20+ years of doing so I know my way around it pretty well - but also because I prefer a rolling distribution. I'm not so bothered about Freeness that including some firmware that makes my computer actually work is going to put me off.
Absolutely! I’m a notorious distro hooper but often rotate through Debian testing on the desktop as I’ve always had a thing for Debian, and testing is more stable than most other distributions...
Absolutely!
I’m a notorious distro hooper but often rotate through Debian testing on the desktop as I’ve always had a thing for Debian, and testing is more stable than most other distributions I’ve used :)
Honestly, I get why the author is upset at an intellectual level, whilst personally thinking it’s a good thing for the project regardless. Surely the more people who can successfully install and use your OS, the better?
I think the missing part of the picture is the number of Debian users who really do care about a 100% free OS. I’ve no idea!
We might not know about users, although popcon could probably shed some light for someone who had time to dig through it. However, we do know about what Debian devs want. The project's voting...
I think the missing part of the picture is the number of Debian users who really do care about a 100% free OS. I’ve no idea!
We might not know about users, although popcon could probably shed some light for someone who had time to dig through it.
However, we do know about what Debian devs want. The project's voting system is.. um.. interesting. But here are the results. The winning proposal involved changing the Debian Social Contract and as such required a 3:1 super majority - which it got. But it took until 2022 for this vote to happen and go through. I don't know if it's been proposed in the past or not, but it seems a reasonable bet is has been at some point.
I'm a Debian user, and the main reason for that is its stability. I suspect even non-server users prefer it for this reason, rather than Debian's contracts or stances regarding free software. It's...
I'm a Debian user, and the main reason for that is its stability. I suspect even non-server users prefer it for this reason, rather than Debian's contracts or stances regarding free software. It's amazing how few distribution options we have that prioritize stability. I suppose the other option would be Fedora, but at this point, I'm too attached to apt.
Could someone break down what this resolution on non-free firmware means in practical terms/for end users? Like, what was so significant as to trigger this resolution that goes against their...
Could someone break down what this resolution on non-free firmware means in practical terms/for end users? Like, what was so significant as to trigger this resolution that goes against their philosophy?
some LWN articles with background: Jan 2021: Installing Debian on modern hardware Aug 2022: Debian to vote on its firmware path the main issue, as I understand it, is how many modern laptops...
the main issue, as I understand it, is how many modern laptops require a non-free firmware blob to make the wifi work.
Debian previously didn't include any of those non-free blobs in their installer, leaving some users in a catch-22 where the network isn't working so they can't download the non-free blobs necessary to make the network work.
Funnily, I've experienced the exact opposite issue in all my laptops. In some distros with non-free drivers, the official realtek(I think?) driver for my network was preinstalled. However, the...
leaving some users in a catch-22 where the network isn't working so they can't download the non-free blobs necessary to make the network work.
Funnily, I've experienced the exact opposite issue in all my laptops. In some distros with non-free drivers, the official realtek(I think?) driver for my network was preinstalled. However, the official driver was so bad that it either didn't work at all, or it disconnected every few seconds... I've always had to move to a specific FOSS driver from github in order for my network card to actually work.
I can safely say that I've experienced the above in multiple lenovo laptops, between at least 2015 and 2021, if not later too. Especially on Ubuntu-based distros.
I actually agree with this person, and I'm not the sort of person to switch to something like Trisquel. Debian sort of undercut its own ideology by at least not maintaining free ISOs, when all...
I actually agree with this person, and I'm not the sort of person to switch to something like Trisquel. Debian sort of undercut its own ideology by at least not maintaining free ISOs, when all they would've needed to do is signal-boost and offer support for the non-free images.
I get the didactic reason for wanting to keep Debian 100% free, but for most people this is an absolute win. I opted to go with (K)Ubuntu rather than Debian on my new laptop solely because I didn't want to jump through hoops with firmware. I'm a computational scientist. I am absolutely a power user compared with the average person, but the "it just works" factor is very valuable.
I had this same reasoning for ~2 years when I was using Ubuntu on my personal computer. However I still ran into a ton of issues over time, GPU driver issues, audio issues, Ubuntu buggy ass UI issues, X server issues, boot issues, update failures, etc
I switched to Arch ~6 months ago and haven't had a single issue since then.
Honestly (and I full expect to be attacked for this), this is why I run Windows on all of my desktop machines.
My servers are all Linux, but desktop / laptop? Always Windows.
See, where I'm at is the opposite, which is that Windows is sluggish, littered with bugs that I constantly run into, and very much not a "just works" OS for me, but Linux is, or at least has been for the better part of a decade. I'm not even saying you're wrong, it's just been the opposite of my experience.
I'm completely with you on this. I still use Linux on my laptop cause it's old and needs the help, but windows all the way on my desktop. Despite being an advocate against windows in the past there's not really much I can complain about anymore. I can't remember the last time I saw a bluescreen and it's nice to have a system where my graphics driver actually works more than 50% of the time. I don't have the enthusiasm for hours of configuring Linux distros like I used to. I just need a computer that's going to turn on and let me do my work.
I get that. My laptop is right now my only non-windows computer. I might eventually put Win11 back on it, but right now I'm kind of sick of windows' shit on mobile. And it does everything I need it to right now.
The advantage used to be there until Windows 7, it used to be very difficult to migrate folks to Linux because Microsoft used to put efforts in their OS development.
But ever since Windows 10/11, the level of forced updates and intrusive telemetry is such that it's as if Microsoft itself is prodding folks towards Linux!
GNU and the DFSG don't worry about unmodifiable chip firmware anyway. The justification is that they're basically a part of the hardware at that point.
The thing with any ideology is rules are arbitraty lines in the sand. The above firmware example is one. The firmware example in the OP is another. My line that is cool with non-free on every Debian install is yet another.
There's very few effective ways to make firmware that cannot be extracted from a device. It's just a matter of having the skills to do so. And firmware is quite literally a binary blob; there's no documentation on how it works, so nobody knows what the firmware is actually doing, so it doesn't make it any more transparent to have it on your storage drive than it is hanging out in the device.
Firmware can be stored in one of four major categories; internally on the chip itself, on a mask ROM or PROM, on flash or an (E)EPROM, or in RAM. As far as I have seen, computer peripherals are the only ones that store firmware in RAM and require loading from an external process each time it's started. External (P)ROMs can be replaced. Flash and (E)EROMs can be rewritten. The only hard one to extract are the ones burnt directly into the chip, and you can't replace it without replacing the whole chip.
With all that being said, the main problem with these RAM-based firmware solution is mainly legal. That firmware is intellectual property, which means that the companies who made them can put essentially any legal restriction on them that they want. If they wanted, they could make their terms prevent you from running their hardware on Linux systems.
That being said, I don't know if there has been any kind of legal precedent in regards to this kind of firmware setup.
There's also a philosophical argument against them, but I assume you already know about that one.
Could you elaborate on "the rest of the world is moving everything into cloud services"? Or maybe suggest an article on this matter
Oh I see it, thank you for the detailed answer. I was thinking more in the line of Operational Systems (as in a whole cloud-based OS), as I remember reading somewhere something about Windows (as a OS) planning to go to the cloud, and thought there was some development on that that I've missed.
I think it’s simply the standard inclusion of non free firmware and drivers from the likes of Intel, Broadcom, NVIDIA etc.
They have always been available on Debian but you had to add the repos after installation so the default installation was guaranteed to be compliant with the Debian free software goals.
Changing it to ship with these drivers changes it from a 100% compliant free operating system to one which includes proprietary drivers by default, and it sounds like that was a step too far for the author.
Edited to add:
For the standard user, getting support for your devices just got easier unless you were installing Debian because it was 100% free, in which case you have some hoops to jump through to remove it.
I’d say it’s more of a chore to remove than to add.
I’m a Linux user of 20+ years, so my opinion isn’t valid here. I know what Debian is good for and when to reach for it. I also don’t particularly care about non free software in the image.
I suspect most desktop users who install Debian do so because of its free licensing stance, or possibly because it’s upstream from Ubuntu… but I’m making stuff up at this point so I’ll shut up!
You could always use the non-free install isos, which have existed for a long time. Getting that iso was still a hoop to jump through, and I'm glad it's being removed.
Maybe next the contents of deb-multimedia can make it into the official repos!
fwiw I used Debian on my desktop because it's stable and doesn't mess me about and after 20+ years of doing so I know my way around it pretty well - but also because I prefer a rolling distribution. I'm not so bothered about Freeness that including some firmware that makes my computer actually work is going to put me off.
Absolutely!
I’m a notorious distro hooper but often rotate through Debian testing on the desktop as I’ve always had a thing for Debian, and testing is more stable than most other distributions I’ve used :)
Honestly, I get why the author is upset at an intellectual level, whilst personally thinking it’s a good thing for the project regardless. Surely the more people who can successfully install and use your OS, the better?
I think the missing part of the picture is the number of Debian users who really do care about a 100% free OS. I’ve no idea!
We might not know about users, although popcon could probably shed some light for someone who had time to dig through it.
However, we do know about what Debian devs want. The project's voting system is.. um.. interesting. But here are the results. The winning proposal involved changing the Debian Social Contract and as such required a 3:1 super majority - which it got. But it took until 2022 for this vote to happen and go through. I don't know if it's been proposed in the past or not, but it seems a reasonable bet is has been at some point.
I'm a Debian user, and the main reason for that is its stability. I suspect even non-server users prefer it for this reason, rather than Debian's contracts or stances regarding free software. It's amazing how few distribution options we have that prioritize stability. I suppose the other option would be Fedora, but at this point, I'm too attached to apt.
If you love apt, take a looksy at Nala.
Could someone break down what this resolution on non-free firmware means in practical terms/for end users? Like, what was so significant as to trigger this resolution that goes against their philosophy?
some LWN articles with background:
Jan 2021: Installing Debian on modern hardware
Aug 2022: Debian to vote on its firmware path
the main issue, as I understand it, is how many modern laptops require a non-free firmware blob to make the wifi work.
Debian previously didn't include any of those non-free blobs in their installer, leaving some users in a catch-22 where the network isn't working so they can't download the non-free blobs necessary to make the network work.
Funnily, I've experienced the exact opposite issue in all my laptops. In some distros with non-free drivers, the official realtek(I think?) driver for my network was preinstalled. However, the official driver was so bad that it either didn't work at all, or it disconnected every few seconds... I've always had to move to a specific FOSS driver from github in order for my network card to actually work.
I can safely say that I've experienced the above in multiple lenovo laptops, between at least 2015 and 2021, if not later too. Especially on Ubuntu-based distros.
I actually agree with this person, and I'm not the sort of person to switch to something like Trisquel. Debian sort of undercut its own ideology by at least not maintaining free ISOs, when all they would've needed to do is signal-boost and offer support for the non-free images.