A chance reference to the discontinuation of a specific pasta shape in a different Tildes topic led me to this interesting story. Alongside the economics and marketing speculation, It discusses...
A chance reference to the discontinuation of a specific pasta shape in a different Tildes topic led me to this interesting story.
Alongside the economics and marketing speculation, It discusses inherent local supply chain failures due to offshoring and lack of capital investment that result in obsolescence of entire industries, as well as the economics of reinventing them.
From the article:
It seems absurd that in the era of global trade and 3D printing, there would be any difficulty in producing a tiny star-shaped die through which to push pasta dough. That’s all pasta is, of course—water and flour forced through molds or dies. How elusive could the equipment to make pastina possibly be?
Well. This would not be the first time a seemingly simple manufactured product proved difficult to obtain. Several years ago, Apple suspended its effort to assemble iPhones and Mac Pros in America because it couldn’t reliably source some tiny screws. The tool and die landscape in the United States was reportedly so diminished that even a tech titan like Apple couldn’t easily commission these particular components reliably. How? It’s just a screw. But if you wish to make a screw, you must first invent the universe. Or, at least invent a full-dress tool-and-die manufacturing industry, one of whose outputs is a tiny screw.
Because it isn’t just the die. It’s the tools and machines that make dies. And the tools and machines that make those machines. And the ecosystem of engineering knowhow and tacit knowledge that make all of it run smoothly and efficiently enough to be competitive.
.
.
.
The stunning advancement of digital technology has given us a sense that anything is possible, that everything is just a click or a touch away. But the world of machines and factories and tools and dies is different. And sometimes, inventing the universe to extrude some pasta just doesn’t pencil out.
Even though this starts with a miniscule pasta shape, there's more room for discussion of manufacturing as opposed to information technologies. This is something I run into at work on a regular basis - the assumptions of flexibility and agility in software engineering run far ahead of the procurement, quality management, and redesign limitations for the physical components involved.
***As usual, I've managed to find a topic that's not a perfect fit for any of the regular Tildes categories. Feel free to move it if desired, but I really wanted to spark a supply chain and engineering agility discussion if anyone is interested.
What a fascinating article. From tiny pasta to iPhones to turntables....what they all have in common is sourcing low tech components and cast dies, and the loss of equipment and expertise over the...
What a fascinating article. From tiny pasta to iPhones to turntables....what they all have in common is sourcing low tech components and cast dies, and the loss of equipment and expertise over the decades of relying on China as the global factory.
How hard can it be to bring back?
I love the tiny pasta (all tiny pasta) and always wondered why it's so hard to find to buy where I live.
I remember in the 80's machinists and engineers thought the outsourcing trend was going to be the end of their world and the end of US economic dominance for precisely these reasons. The metaphor...
I remember in the 80's machinists and engineers thought the outsourcing trend was going to be the end of their world and the end of US economic dominance for precisely these reasons. The metaphor of sawing of the branch you sit on was used. So was the line about capitalists selling the rope that would be used to later hang them.
It turns out we did not face a hot world war that cut our supply chains from Asia, yet. We did however lose mechanical expertise and physical infrastructure that were sold off and dismantled.
What really sucks is that the only true problem with China being the global factory is that China is the global factory. The emissions thing can be solved (eventually), the loss of jobs is really...
What really sucks is that the only true problem with China being the global factory is that China is the global factory. The emissions thing can be solved (eventually), the loss of jobs is really just jobs transfer, etc. It really does help with efficiency to have a global factory. But the fact that China has to use slavery and genocide in their factories really ruins it.
There've been warnings about race-to-the-bottom economics of labor forever. Slavery and genocide don't play well in Western democracies, but they're not nearly bad enough for profits to eliminate...
There've been warnings about race-to-the-bottom economics of labor forever. Slavery and genocide don't play well in Western democracies, but they're not nearly bad enough for profits to eliminate them from opaque, complex supply chains.
The lack of economy around the machining industry is an interesting and frustrating story. I think it's kind of interesting that we here in North America still tend to think of Chinese products as...
The lack of economy around the machining industry is an interesting and frustrating story.
I think it's kind of interesting that we here in North America still tend to think of Chinese products as low quality crap. But that's really not the case. In reality, there are huge swaths of products being made there because they can't realistically be built with the lack of machining here in NA. The higher quality stuff just has better branding that hides the fact that it was made in China.
The thing that makes the death of machining especially sad is that it's a skilled trade. It's something you need to have experience in to be good. There are so many fine details that have to be just right in order to get good results reliably. Even with robots and computer controlled machinery, there needs to be a person behind it with the knowledge to make it useful. When these people move on, there's no simple way to bring them back.
I'd also run across this story about basically building a supply chain from scratch, in Manaus, Brazil. It's a remote area with little facilitative infrastructure other than the Amazon River. The...
I'd also run across this story about basically building a supply chain from scratch, in Manaus, Brazil. It's a remote area with little facilitative infrastructure other than the Amazon River. The choice of location is driven mainly by low labor costs and the need to have manufacturing outposts away from Asia, as well as a historical base of industry and trained workers built on exploitable rubber resources. Nonetheless, it's funny that a profitable supply chain can be made from almost nothing if you put enough mutually compatible industries in one place.
This is/was my kids favorite pasta. They have been complaining about it since they pulled it from shelves. I haven't been able to find an equivalent tiny pasta that they like nearly as much.
This is/was my kids favorite pasta. They have been complaining about it since they pulled it from shelves. I haven't been able to find an equivalent tiny pasta that they like nearly as much.
Man, even mini shells aren't reliably available a lot of the time. Have you tried local little tiny Italian shops? When I used to live in a big city they have little Italy districts where tiny...
Man, even mini shells aren't reliably available a lot of the time.
Have you tried local little tiny Italian shops? When I used to live in a big city they have little Italy districts where tiny shops would have stuff like this or be able to source them for me.
No, it is just the Ronzoni that is discontinued as far as I know, but all the different pastina shapes are distinct. The discontinued Ronzoni shape is wider, and flat with a hole in the middle. It...
No, it is just the Ronzoni that is discontinued as far as I know, but all the different pastina shapes are distinct. The discontinued Ronzoni shape is wider, and flat with a hole in the middle. It makes the pasta cook quicker and somehow "better" according to my kids. The Barilla is actually OK, but none of the local grocery stores carry it so I either have to order it online or go with some more niche brands and they aren't winners apparently. I know, first world problems, but the kids are very vocal about it. :)
The discontinued Ronzoni isn’t the wide ones with a hole, it’s the minuscule ones “pasta no 155”. A lot of the articles seem to incorrectly show stelline, the bigger ones with the hole, as a...
The discontinued Ronzoni isn’t the wide ones with a hole, it’s the minuscule ones “pasta no 155”. A lot of the articles seem to incorrectly show stelline, the bigger ones with the hole, as a closeup for some reason. Zoom in on this one to see the correct shape.
I found the article a bit disappointing because they set up a question and don’t answer it. They never do get to the bottom of why this pasta was discontinued. Instead the article transitions to...
I found the article a bit disappointing because they set up a question and don’t answer it. They never do get to the bottom of why this pasta was discontinued. Instead the article transitions to talking generally about supply chain issues, but not in depth.
It's not from an engineering or supply chain journal; I just thought it was an interesting jumping off point for discussion. The question of why that pasta shape was actually discontinued isn't...
It's not from an engineering or supply chain journal; I just thought it was an interesting jumping off point for discussion. The question of why that pasta shape was actually discontinued isn't answerable without some deeper investigative journalism, but it's likely a combination of the factors mentioned.
I think the line between journalism and blogging is: do you make phone calls? Ordinary journalistic practice would include calling the company up, asking them questions, and maybe quoting them. Or...
I think the line between journalism and blogging is: do you make phone calls? Ordinary journalistic practice would include calling the company up, asking them questions, and maybe quoting them. Or at least trying. We don’t do that, though. We do some web searches, at best, and don’t try to contact anyone.
This article seems entirely based on web research. It’s not wrong and not wrong to share, I was just hoping for more.
This is a news analysis, synthesizing different sources to generate one story. My main question, given their name, is how this supports their mission of defending liberal democracy.
This is a news analysis, synthesizing different sources to generate one story. My main question, given their name, is how this supports their mission of defending liberal democracy.
Yeah, I found the ending of the article to be pretty abrupt. OK, cool segue into screws and turntables, now back to pasta, right? Nope, just the end of the article. This reminds me of one person's...
Yeah, I found the ending of the article to be pretty abrupt. OK, cool segue into screws and turntables, now back to pasta, right? Nope, just the end of the article.
This reminds me of one person's quest to produce their own unique pasta shape that I heard about on Planet Money. It seems to me that if one person can commission a bespoke pasta, any large pasta company could produce any existing pasta shape if they wanted to. Just depends on the economics of it.
The author never actually presents any evidence that Ronzoni is experiencing technical manufacturing issues, just that they lost their supplier for it. So the link between tooling issues and this particular pasta seems to be entirely based on conjecture. They present a few things in the same article because they want you to think they are related, then weasel out of any direct statement saying the two are connected, because they don't have any evidence.
A chance reference to the discontinuation of a specific pasta shape in a different Tildes topic led me to this interesting story.
Alongside the economics and marketing speculation, It discusses inherent local supply chain failures due to offshoring and lack of capital investment that result in obsolescence of entire industries, as well as the economics of reinventing them.
From the article:
Even though this starts with a miniscule pasta shape, there's more room for discussion of manufacturing as opposed to information technologies. This is something I run into at work on a regular basis - the assumptions of flexibility and agility in software engineering run far ahead of the procurement, quality management, and redesign limitations for the physical components involved.
***As usual, I've managed to find a topic that's not a perfect fit for any of the regular Tildes categories. Feel free to move it if desired, but I really wanted to spark a supply chain and engineering agility discussion if anyone is interested.
What a fascinating article. From tiny pasta to iPhones to turntables....what they all have in common is sourcing low tech components and cast dies, and the loss of equipment and expertise over the decades of relying on China as the global factory.
How hard can it be to bring back?
I love the tiny pasta (all tiny pasta) and always wondered why it's so hard to find to buy where I live.
I remember in the 80's machinists and engineers thought the outsourcing trend was going to be the end of their world and the end of US economic dominance for precisely these reasons. The metaphor of sawing of the branch you sit on was used. So was the line about capitalists selling the rope that would be used to later hang them.
It turns out we did not face a hot world war that cut our supply chains from Asia, yet. We did however lose mechanical expertise and physical infrastructure that were sold off and dismantled.
@patience_limited
What really sucks is that the only true problem with China being the global factory is that China is the global factory. The emissions thing can be solved (eventually), the loss of jobs is really just jobs transfer, etc. It really does help with efficiency to have a global factory. But the fact that China has to use slavery and genocide in their factories really ruins it.
There've been warnings about race-to-the-bottom economics of labor forever. Slavery and genocide don't play well in Western democracies, but they're not nearly bad enough for profits to eliminate them from opaque, complex supply chains.
The lack of economy around the machining industry is an interesting and frustrating story.
I think it's kind of interesting that we here in North America still tend to think of Chinese products as low quality crap. But that's really not the case. In reality, there are huge swaths of products being made there because they can't realistically be built with the lack of machining here in NA. The higher quality stuff just has better branding that hides the fact that it was made in China.
The thing that makes the death of machining especially sad is that it's a skilled trade. It's something you need to have experience in to be good. There are so many fine details that have to be just right in order to get good results reliably. Even with robots and computer controlled machinery, there needs to be a person behind it with the knowledge to make it useful. When these people move on, there's no simple way to bring them back.
I'd also run across this story about basically building a supply chain from scratch, in Manaus, Brazil. It's a remote area with little facilitative infrastructure other than the Amazon River. The choice of location is driven mainly by low labor costs and the need to have manufacturing outposts away from Asia, as well as a historical base of industry and trained workers built on exploitable rubber resources. Nonetheless, it's funny that a profitable supply chain can be made from almost nothing if you put enough mutually compatible industries in one place.
This is/was my kids favorite pasta. They have been complaining about it since they pulled it from shelves. I haven't been able to find an equivalent tiny pasta that they like nearly as much.
Man, even mini shells aren't reliably available a lot of the time.
Have you tried local little tiny Italian shops? When I used to live in a big city they have little Italy districts where tiny shops would have stuff like this or be able to source them for me.
Is it pulled from every brand? I swear I just bought some, but possibly I've lost track of time.
No, it is just the Ronzoni that is discontinued as far as I know, but all the different pastina shapes are distinct. The discontinued Ronzoni shape is wider, and flat with a hole in the middle. It makes the pasta cook quicker and somehow "better" according to my kids. The Barilla is actually OK, but none of the local grocery stores carry it so I either have to order it online or go with some more niche brands and they aren't winners apparently. I know, first world problems, but the kids are very vocal about it. :)
The discontinued Ronzoni isn’t the wide ones with a hole, it’s the minuscule ones “pasta no 155”. A lot of the articles seem to incorrectly show stelline, the bigger ones with the hole, as a closeup for some reason. Zoom in on this one to see the correct shape.
Shoot, you're right. I think I bought the other star one by mistake they are also liked that one.
Got it, I must have gotten the Barilla last time.
I found the article a bit disappointing because they set up a question and don’t answer it. They never do get to the bottom of why this pasta was discontinued. Instead the article transitions to talking generally about supply chain issues, but not in depth.
It's not from an engineering or supply chain journal; I just thought it was an interesting jumping off point for discussion. The question of why that pasta shape was actually discontinued isn't answerable without some deeper investigative journalism, but it's likely a combination of the factors mentioned.
I think the line between journalism and blogging is: do you make phone calls? Ordinary journalistic practice would include calling the company up, asking them questions, and maybe quoting them. Or at least trying. We don’t do that, though. We do some web searches, at best, and don’t try to contact anyone.
This article seems entirely based on web research. It’s not wrong and not wrong to share, I was just hoping for more.
This is a news analysis, synthesizing different sources to generate one story. My main question, given their name, is how this supports their mission of defending liberal democracy.
Yeah, I found the ending of the article to be pretty abrupt. OK, cool segue into screws and turntables, now back to pasta, right? Nope, just the end of the article.
This reminds me of one person's quest to produce their own unique pasta shape that I heard about on Planet Money. It seems to me that if one person can commission a bespoke pasta, any large pasta company could produce any existing pasta shape if they wanted to. Just depends on the economics of it.
The author never actually presents any evidence that Ronzoni is experiencing technical manufacturing issues, just that they lost their supplier for it. So the link between tooling issues and this particular pasta seems to be entirely based on conjecture. They present a few things in the same article because they want you to think they are related, then weasel out of any direct statement saying the two are connected, because they don't have any evidence.