A major fault lies with higher education and their increasing inflation of tuition. Every year prices go up with no additional benefit. It's not like they go up to match inflation. Their prices...
A major fault lies with higher education and their increasing inflation of tuition. Every year prices go up with no additional benefit. It's not like they go up to match inflation.
Their prices need to be regulated so students don't have to get monstrous loans. However, these loans benefit universities, loan providers, and university business partners. Everyone but the student wins
Supply isn't the only reason prices go up - it is the law of supply and demand after all. The loans themselves contribute to demand for college. That being said, just outreach and understanding...
Supply isn't the only reason prices go up - it is the law of supply and demand after all. The loans themselves contribute to demand for college.
That being said, just outreach and understanding can do a lot. I don't think many people with student loans necessarily made the best decision for their dollars. It is the case that there are universities so bursting with student demand that they make applicants bend over backwards just to cull the field, while universities like Auburn are providing full ride scholarships for people who did well on PSAT.
Federal student loans, are, in the end, also quite gentle with the new IBR plans, and even the old IBR plans. It's just that many people don't even know the IBR plans exist (even after having to through loan counseling - they just click through it!). Make sure people know that IBR is an option! It's incredible how many times you read "wow, I wish our student loans were like the UK where it took a percentage of your income-" it is, swap to IBR.
Private student loans should be discouraged. I'm not sure if it's necessary to limit them legally, just make sure students are discouraged from taking them.
In the end, if more students pick local, publicly run universities and only take out federal student loans if at all, then the net costs for education will go down by a large amount.
Demand is artificially inflated by using degree's as a filter for positions that really don't need a degree, or at least don't need a 4 year. Basically every office position that's taking college...
Demand is artificially inflated by using degree's as a filter for positions that really don't need a degree, or at least don't need a 4 year. Basically every office position that's taking college grads from any field really means that in order to work there you have to spend 5 figures + and 4+ years of your life to get the job, even if what you spent that time and money on doesn't relate at all.
If you can hire a philosophy major and teach them accounting, then why did they have to spend that money and time? If you only let people with 4 year degree's get these positions, then the value of the 4 year degree is inflated, regardless of how much it actually affects their on the job performance.
It's also insane that degree's are all or nothing for this. If i take 5 accounting classes i'm a less viable candidate for an accounting position than someone with a 4 year degree in basket weaving. It just became the lazy way to filter candidates, and it has a horrific feedback effect while also punishing those who's life circumstances prevent or delay a 4 year degree (which on average is now 5 or 6).
This is not always the case. In some fields, experience including course work will weigh more than someone with a degree in an unrelated field. In accounting, you would typically need a CPA so the...
If i take 5 accounting classes i'm a less viable candidate for an accounting position than someone with a 4 year degree in basket weaving.
This is not always the case. In some fields, experience including course work will weigh more than someone with a degree in an unrelated field. In accounting, you would typically need a CPA so the standard requirement is very clear.
I'm speaking from very real examples. I've worked in buildings full of accounting members without a CPA. People seem to miss that just because there's a higher standard that most business is done...
I'm speaking from very real examples. I've worked in buildings full of accounting members without a CPA. People seem to miss that just because there's a higher standard that most business is done at a much lower one.
I wouldn't necessarily say it's artificial, or at least completely artificial. When labor markets get tight, those degree requirements get lifted. When tech hiring was at its hottest, people from...
I wouldn't necessarily say it's artificial, or at least completely artificial. When labor markets get tight, those degree requirements get lifted. When tech hiring was at its hottest, people from bootcamps started to get hired. The value for the generic degree is the general education (which I genuinely think is pretty valuable) as well as a signal that you can do the kind of office work, with the level of reliability wanted, those positions usually are.
I think the "general education" is hugely overvalued for something locked behind thousands of dollars and years of time. It basically ensures that a large % of very talented workers can't get jobs...
I think the "general education" is hugely overvalued for something locked behind thousands of dollars and years of time. It basically ensures that a large % of very talented workers can't get jobs because they come from a living situation that doesn't allow them to take 4-5 years. There are some who can do it, but there's so many more who just can't, or can only do so much, and it's absurd that we think that somehow these people who just muddled through college are better workers than them.
That and I don't think the market reflects that purported value of general education, given just how lacking in value two-year degrees tend to be, or that common resume-building advice recommends...
That and I don't think the market reflects that purported value of general education, given just how lacking in value two-year degrees tend to be, or that common resume-building advice recommends leaving off incomplete degrees despite the implied general education that comes with that.
This gets said a lot, and while it's absolutely true that college administrations have ballooned, the rising expenses of higher ed have become something of an admin/student ouroboros. Students pay...
This gets said a lot, and while it's absolutely true that college administrations have ballooned, the rising expenses of higher ed have become something of an admin/student ouroboros. Students pay a lot for their education, and in return, they expect a lot: new and updated classrooms and labs, residences, dining options, student unions, recreation/sports facilities, etc. They expect a high level of support for student life. Counseling and health care services, learning support services, so on and so forth. Meeting these student expectations results in more hiring, more construction, and more more expenses. Combine this with flatlining or decreasing (relative to inflation) state funding for public schools, and, well, tuition goes up. That higher tuition causes students to demand a higher quality experience, and...
Add in the fact that there is also a ton of work for regulatory compliance that wasn't necessary decades ago, there are massive IT expenses that didn't exist decades ago, and, well, yeah, it's a lot more expensive. Is there more that could be done to cut costs, and could administrations be cut back to more reasonable levels? Sure. But it's not so simple as "greedy colleges raising tuition."
IT is a huge new expense and one the admin readily chops off at its knees, thus incurring an even greater expense. I agree with you--all that is needed and necessary. Honestly, and expected. Then...
IT is a huge new expense and one the admin readily chops off at its knees, thus incurring an even greater expense.
I agree with you--all that is needed and necessary. Honestly, and expected. Then those new assets have to be maintained and improved, etc.
It still doesn't mean the universities need to charge as much as they do. They could reduce tuition (and other costs--have you seen parking fees?) And still prosper
No matter the reason, I think the memory of "democrats restarted the student loans" will hang over the democrats pretty much forever. First they have to be the party that restarted the loans, and...
No matter the reason, I think the memory of "democrats restarted the student loans" will hang over the democrats pretty much forever. First they have to be the party that restarted the loans, and then they'll have to stand by while every step of the process goes wrong, as outlined in the article.
In a country where that means the only other option is demonstrably worse in every way by an order of magnitude, this does not fill me with confidence.
Maybe I'm confused but, how did Democrats restart the student loans? Republicans have the house, that's why they're getting concessions, and one of those concessions that Republicans wanted was...
Maybe I'm confused but, how did Democrats restart the student loans? Republicans have the house, that's why they're getting concessions, and one of those concessions that Republicans wanted was restarting student loans.
I suppose I should be clear - I agree with you, the democrats did NOT do this, they're not to blame. But (perhaps I am erroneous here) it seems there is a large portion of the country that will go...
I suppose I should be clear - I agree with you, the democrats did NOT do this, they're not to blame. But (perhaps I am erroneous here) it seems there is a large portion of the country that will go "Biden is in charge, therefore it is the democrats running and ruining everything" willfully ignoring what the republicans are actively doing. Perhaps I am mostly concerned that enough people in enough states will not think past that and throw their vote to the republicans again because "biden ruined everything".
I don't think that student loans restarting will drive young people from democrats to non-voters or republicans. I guess I'm just...worried that this will be used as another "rallying lie" while many people are hurting and struggling to just pay their loans.
It's the same thing as the narrative that "Biden lost in Afghanistan." Bush started it, Obama started a pull-out, Trump botched what little success there would be and Biden dealt with the...
It's the same thing as the narrative that "Biden lost in Afghanistan."
Bush started it, Obama started a pull-out, Trump botched what little success there would be and Biden dealt with the aftermath. It was going to be a shitshow regardless.
Same thing here. In a sense the longer we delay restarting, the worse it's going to be, but the best-case scenario still provides little to no benefit. Biden inherited the problem and his decision, not the slow frog boil, will be the memorable part.
It wasn't Democrats who sued to stop the Biden administration's student loan forgiveness plan. It wasn't Democrats who demanded the student loan pause be stopped as part of the debt ceiling bill.
It wasn't Democrats who sued to stop the Biden administration's student loan forgiveness plan.
It wasn't Democrats who demanded the student loan pause be stopped as part of the debt ceiling bill.
I think this very succinctly sums up my concern/thoughts. I do not actually think democrats are to blame here, I'm just concerned enough people in enough places that swing the electoral college...
I think this very succinctly sums up my concern/thoughts. I do not actually think democrats are to blame here, I'm just concerned enough people in enough places that swing the electoral college will believe they are and I'm not a fan of that potential outcome at all.
I don't think it'd matter all that much. The majority of swing voters do not have a college education - it is likely that they do not view the loan forbearance/forgiveness with much sympathy to...
I don't think it'd matter all that much. The majority of swing voters do not have a college education - it is likely that they do not view the loan forbearance/forgiveness with much sympathy to begin with. The areas with a deluge of college education voters are the areas that are solidly blue to begin with.
The debt ceiling bill didn't actually change the date. Since the federal emergency was over, Biden no longer had the power to extend the forbearance anyway. Technically, before the bill the...
The debt ceiling bill didn't actually change the date. Since the federal emergency was over, Biden no longer had the power to extend the forbearance anyway. Technically, before the bill the administration could have declared another emergency just for this but that wasn't really going to happen.
Thanks! I got an email a few weeks ago about Fresh Start since my loans are pretty far behind even before the repayment pause. I've got some phone calls to make. Ugh!
Thanks! I got an email a few weeks ago about Fresh Start since my loans are pretty far behind even before the repayment pause. I've got some phone calls to make. Ugh!
I may be off on this, but those I know are not going to pin this on the Democrats. This is the first I am hearing that this is going to be Democrats' fault. Everyone in my orbit seems to know the...
I may be off on this, but those I know are not going to pin this on the Democrats. This is the first I am hearing that this is going to be Democrats' fault.
Everyone in my orbit seems to know the Democrats wanted debt forgiveness but the Republicans said "no". Also, almost everyone I know "knows" this is coming and that Biden et al tried their best to head it off. I am concerned to be hearing the opposite...
I'm 24 and graduated from college two years ago. While I'm pretty concerned about all this stuff, I really don't see myself or basically any of my friends switching votes away from the Democrats...
I'm 24 and graduated from college two years ago. While I'm pretty concerned about all this stuff, I really don't see myself or basically any of my friends switching votes away from the Democrats because of it... Sure, Biden's administration may have dropped the ball on this, but I have so much more confidence in their ability to do something about it than DeSantis or Trump or whoever else the Republicans can put up in 2024. Maybe it will impact votes, but I feel like in the current political climate at least the people I know who vote for Democrats have no interest in switching parties over this issue.
I'll never understand the perspective that Democrats "dropped the ball" on this. They fought for it, against the Republicans, and lost. Not voting Democrat because of this can only result in more...
I'll never understand the perspective that Democrats "dropped the ball" on this. They fought for it, against the Republicans, and lost. Not voting Democrat because of this can only result in more of it, right? Why don't people see that?
Yeah this is obviously a concession made by Democrats to, you know, keep the country from shutting down due to hitting the debt ceiling. I think the author of this piece is putting very little...
Yeah this is obviously a concession made by Democrats to, you know, keep the country from shutting down due to hitting the debt ceiling. I think the author of this piece is putting very little faith in the average intelligence of young voters. Or maybe I am putting too much. Who knows.
Yeah, basically I'm disappointed Biden and his administration couldn't get more done but I'm aware the Republicans would be far worse, and in many many more ways than just this. Maybe "dropped the...
Yeah, basically I'm disappointed Biden and his administration couldn't get more done but I'm aware the Republicans would be far worse, and in many many more ways than just this. Maybe "dropped the ball" isn't the right terminology so much as "didn't accomplish what I hoped".
I see this sentiment in many areas, but for my own expectations, Biden has exceeded them if nothing else (that excess mainly being the IRA's passing - did not expect that to happen). I think the...
I see this sentiment in many areas, but for my own expectations, Biden has exceeded them if nothing else (that excess mainly being the IRA's passing - did not expect that to happen). I think the only area where I wish he went a different path was international economic hawkishness, which I think has been too severe.
I agree. I don't think democratic voters are as one-dimensional to blame the dems for the resumption of student loans. Everyone pretty well knows who to blame here.
I agree. I don't think democratic voters are as one-dimensional to blame the dems for the resumption of student loans. Everyone pretty well knows who to blame here.
This sort of vote flipping is likely pretty rare as the parties' values are so disparate, so the concern is having people who would otherwise vote stay home. That's still a loss of one vote for a...
I really don't see myself or basically any of my friends switching votes away from the Democrats because of it
This sort of vote flipping is likely pretty rare as the parties' values are so disparate, so the concern is having people who would otherwise vote stay home. That's still a loss of one vote for a candidate.
A major fault lies with higher education and their increasing inflation of tuition. Every year prices go up with no additional benefit. It's not like they go up to match inflation.
Their prices need to be regulated so students don't have to get monstrous loans. However, these loans benefit universities, loan providers, and university business partners. Everyone but the student wins
Supply isn't the only reason prices go up - it is the law of supply and demand after all. The loans themselves contribute to demand for college.
That being said, just outreach and understanding can do a lot. I don't think many people with student loans necessarily made the best decision for their dollars. It is the case that there are universities so bursting with student demand that they make applicants bend over backwards just to cull the field, while universities like Auburn are providing full ride scholarships for people who did well on PSAT.
Federal student loans, are, in the end, also quite gentle with the new IBR plans, and even the old IBR plans. It's just that many people don't even know the IBR plans exist (even after having to through loan counseling - they just click through it!). Make sure people know that IBR is an option! It's incredible how many times you read "wow, I wish our student loans were like the UK where it took a percentage of your income-" it is, swap to IBR.
Private student loans should be discouraged. I'm not sure if it's necessary to limit them legally, just make sure students are discouraged from taking them.
In the end, if more students pick local, publicly run universities and only take out federal student loans if at all, then the net costs for education will go down by a large amount.
Demand is artificially inflated by using degree's as a filter for positions that really don't need a degree, or at least don't need a 4 year. Basically every office position that's taking college grads from any field really means that in order to work there you have to spend 5 figures + and 4+ years of your life to get the job, even if what you spent that time and money on doesn't relate at all.
If you can hire a philosophy major and teach them accounting, then why did they have to spend that money and time? If you only let people with 4 year degree's get these positions, then the value of the 4 year degree is inflated, regardless of how much it actually affects their on the job performance.
It's also insane that degree's are all or nothing for this. If i take 5 accounting classes i'm a less viable candidate for an accounting position than someone with a 4 year degree in basket weaving. It just became the lazy way to filter candidates, and it has a horrific feedback effect while also punishing those who's life circumstances prevent or delay a 4 year degree (which on average is now 5 or 6).
This is not always the case. In some fields, experience including course work will weigh more than someone with a degree in an unrelated field. In accounting, you would typically need a CPA so the standard requirement is very clear.
I'm speaking from very real examples. I've worked in buildings full of accounting members without a CPA. People seem to miss that just because there's a higher standard that most business is done at a much lower one.
I wouldn't necessarily say it's artificial, or at least completely artificial. When labor markets get tight, those degree requirements get lifted. When tech hiring was at its hottest, people from bootcamps started to get hired. The value for the generic degree is the general education (which I genuinely think is pretty valuable) as well as a signal that you can do the kind of office work, with the level of reliability wanted, those positions usually are.
I think the "general education" is hugely overvalued for something locked behind thousands of dollars and years of time. It basically ensures that a large % of very talented workers can't get jobs because they come from a living situation that doesn't allow them to take 4-5 years. There are some who can do it, but there's so many more who just can't, or can only do so much, and it's absurd that we think that somehow these people who just muddled through college are better workers than them.
That and I don't think the market reflects that purported value of general education, given just how lacking in value two-year degrees tend to be, or that common resume-building advice recommends leaving off incomplete degrees despite the implied general education that comes with that.
This gets said a lot, and while it's absolutely true that college administrations have ballooned, the rising expenses of higher ed have become something of an admin/student ouroboros. Students pay a lot for their education, and in return, they expect a lot: new and updated classrooms and labs, residences, dining options, student unions, recreation/sports facilities, etc. They expect a high level of support for student life. Counseling and health care services, learning support services, so on and so forth. Meeting these student expectations results in more hiring, more construction, and more more expenses. Combine this with flatlining or decreasing (relative to inflation) state funding for public schools, and, well, tuition goes up. That higher tuition causes students to demand a higher quality experience, and...
Add in the fact that there is also a ton of work for regulatory compliance that wasn't necessary decades ago, there are massive IT expenses that didn't exist decades ago, and, well, yeah, it's a lot more expensive. Is there more that could be done to cut costs, and could administrations be cut back to more reasonable levels? Sure. But it's not so simple as "greedy colleges raising tuition."
IT is a huge new expense and one the admin readily chops off at its knees, thus incurring an even greater expense.
I agree with you--all that is needed and necessary. Honestly, and expected. Then those new assets have to be maintained and improved, etc.
It still doesn't mean the universities need to charge as much as they do. They could reduce tuition (and other costs--have you seen parking fees?) And still prosper
Don't forget athletics programs!
No matter the reason, I think the memory of "democrats restarted the student loans" will hang over the democrats pretty much forever. First they have to be the party that restarted the loans, and then they'll have to stand by while every step of the process goes wrong, as outlined in the article.
In a country where that means the only other option is demonstrably worse in every way by an order of magnitude, this does not fill me with confidence.
Maybe I'm confused but, how did Democrats restart the student loans? Republicans have the house, that's why they're getting concessions, and one of those concessions that Republicans wanted was restarting student loans.
Yep. I see this as the starting of a narrative that hides the Republican party's involvement in the loan crisis.
The Republicans are proud to be against it.
I suppose I should be clear - I agree with you, the democrats did NOT do this, they're not to blame. But (perhaps I am erroneous here) it seems there is a large portion of the country that will go "Biden is in charge, therefore it is the democrats running and ruining everything" willfully ignoring what the republicans are actively doing. Perhaps I am mostly concerned that enough people in enough states will not think past that and throw their vote to the republicans again because "biden ruined everything".
I don't think that student loans restarting will drive young people from democrats to non-voters or republicans. I guess I'm just...worried that this will be used as another "rallying lie" while many people are hurting and struggling to just pay their loans.
It's the same thing as the narrative that "Biden lost in Afghanistan."
Bush started it, Obama started a pull-out, Trump botched what little success there would be and Biden dealt with the aftermath. It was going to be a shitshow regardless.
Same thing here. In a sense the longer we delay restarting, the worse it's going to be, but the best-case scenario still provides little to no benefit. Biden inherited the problem and his decision, not the slow frog boil, will be the memorable part.
It wasn't Democrats who sued to stop the Biden administration's student loan forgiveness plan.
It wasn't Democrats who demanded the student loan pause be stopped as part of the debt ceiling bill.
Sure, but we are by definition talking about college-educated people.
I think this very succinctly sums up my concern/thoughts. I do not actually think democrats are to blame here, I'm just concerned enough people in enough places that swing the electoral college will believe they are and I'm not a fan of that potential outcome at all.
I don't think it'd matter all that much. The majority of swing voters do not have a college education - it is likely that they do not view the loan forbearance/forgiveness with much sympathy to begin with. The areas with a deluge of college education voters are the areas that are solidly blue to begin with.
Oh... Oh no. I didn't know it was part of the debt ceiling bill. I thought there was still a chance of it being extended again. I'm so fucked.
The debt ceiling bill didn't actually change the date. Since the federal emergency was over, Biden no longer had the power to extend the forbearance anyway. Technically, before the bill the administration could have declared another emergency just for this but that wasn't really going to happen.
Indeed, no more extensions. If you haven't, make sure you check out the income-driven repayment plans.
Thanks! I got an email a few weeks ago about Fresh Start since my loans are pretty far behind even before the repayment pause. I've got some phone calls to make. Ugh!
I may be off on this, but those I know are not going to pin this on the Democrats. This is the first I am hearing that this is going to be Democrats' fault.
Everyone in my orbit seems to know the Democrats wanted debt forgiveness but the Republicans said "no". Also, almost everyone I know "knows" this is coming and that Biden et al tried their best to head it off. I am concerned to be hearing the opposite...
I'm 24 and graduated from college two years ago. While I'm pretty concerned about all this stuff, I really don't see myself or basically any of my friends switching votes away from the Democrats because of it... Sure, Biden's administration may have dropped the ball on this, but I have so much more confidence in their ability to do something about it than DeSantis or Trump or whoever else the Republicans can put up in 2024. Maybe it will impact votes, but I feel like in the current political climate at least the people I know who vote for Democrats have no interest in switching parties over this issue.
I'll never understand the perspective that Democrats "dropped the ball" on this. They fought for it, against the Republicans, and lost. Not voting Democrat because of this can only result in more of it, right? Why don't people see that?
Yeah this is obviously a concession made by Democrats to, you know, keep the country from shutting down due to hitting the debt ceiling. I think the author of this piece is putting very little faith in the average intelligence of young voters. Or maybe I am putting too much. Who knows.
Yeah, basically I'm disappointed Biden and his administration couldn't get more done but I'm aware the Republicans would be far worse, and in many many more ways than just this. Maybe "dropped the ball" isn't the right terminology so much as "didn't accomplish what I hoped".
I see this sentiment in many areas, but for my own expectations, Biden has exceeded them if nothing else (that excess mainly being the IRA's passing - did not expect that to happen). I think the only area where I wish he went a different path was international economic hawkishness, which I think has been too severe.
I agree. I don't think democratic voters are as one-dimensional to blame the dems for the resumption of student loans. Everyone pretty well knows who to blame here.
This sort of vote flipping is likely pretty rare as the parties' values are so disparate, so the concern is having people who would otherwise vote stay home. That's still a loss of one vote for a candidate.