Some research that backs up what many of us who watched it happen already knew: Walmart decimated local economies en mass, and the tale that lower consumer prices justifies their behavior...
Some research that backs up what many of us who watched it happen already knew: Walmart decimated local economies en mass, and the tale that lower consumer prices justifies their behavior unsurprisingly turns out to be a lie.
In the 10 years after a Walmart Supercenter opened in a given community, the average household in that community experienced a 6 percent decline in yearly income—equivalent to about $5,000 a year in 2024 dollars—compared with households that didn’t have a Walmart open near them. Low-income, young, and less-educated workers suffered the largest losses.
I have watched it happen, but I always thought it was for a reason that the article and the studies didn’t mention. Walmart is siphoning money away from the communities it moves into. When I shop...
I have watched it happen, but I always thought it was for a reason that the article and the studies didn’t mention.
Walmart is siphoning money away from the communities it moves into.
When I shop local, a lot of that money goes back into the local economy. If I shop at Walmart it all immediately gets siphoned far, far away, and then Walmart blesses a few workers with a very small percentage. Since more people shop there than people who work there, most of the money spent at Walmart leaves the community.
What I always struggled with, especially as a teen working retail in a mom&pop department store, was that Walmart paid better than what I made at the local store and the local movie theater....
What I always struggled with, especially as a teen working retail in a mom&pop department store, was that Walmart paid better than what I made at the local store and the local movie theater. They're awful for the economy but I understand why people shop and work there. Like when a DG opens up and destroys the local grocery store but still pays more... Idk I know small businesses run on thin margins but if they're not able to pay a living wage, should they be open either?
Same some of the worst paying jobs Ive worked were small businesses. It seems every time I switch jobs, I go to a bigger company and I get paid more at the bigger company. What Ive noticed is that...
Same some of the worst paying jobs Ive worked were small businesses.
It seems every time I switch jobs, I go to a bigger company and I get paid more at the bigger company.
What Ive noticed is that such entities tend to have less, more highly paid, workers. So if you’re lucky enough to snag a job at Walmart after all the local shops close, that’s great, but Walmart has now left a lot of unemployed people in their wake.
Yeah and I think it's hard to quantify, especially at the time, how many jobs will ultimately be lost. But it was a real sticking point for me. I do, because of that, think that small business...
Yeah and I think it's hard to quantify, especially at the time, how many jobs will ultimately be lost. But it was a real sticking point for me.
I do, because of that, think that small business owners don't all deserve to run a small business. If you can't pay your people properly, don't run a business. (Walmart also does not pay their people properly, mind you)
Having also seen many small business hells, I've also seen success stories. One that comes to mind is a small grocer with lifetime staffers and a pension. I think a lot of small business woes...
Having also seen many small business hells, I've also seen success stories. One that comes to mind is a small grocer with lifetime staffers and a pension.
I think a lot of small business woes would be solved with eliminating a lot of worker-rights exemptions they get, like FMLA. Also providing grants to start cooperatives where the workers have a vote would help immensely.
There also used to exist a proper middle ground that did do better than both: The regional chain. Large enough to be have consistent wages with fluctuating sales, enough management to avoid the 'owner is a raging asshole' problem, but small enough that most of the money remained in the local economy.
I think theres a lot of pressure on small business that we’re not aware of. Their expenses keep increasing just like ours do. Businesses just shouldn’t be allowed to get as big as Walmart. Its so...
I think theres a lot of pressure on small business that we’re not aware of. Their expenses keep increasing just like ours do.
Businesses just shouldn’t be allowed to get as big as Walmart. Its so massive it could literally open 100 stores in all the small towns, give away everything in the stores for free and still pay their employees more.
The price we all pay for that is that our whole entire world is filled to the brim with cheap plastic crap.
I guess I'm not sure what we're not aware of? I've never ran one but worked for quite a few. Or what makes it ok not to pay their people a living wage? The owners of the ones I'm thinking of...
I guess I'm not sure what we're not aware of? I've never ran one but worked for quite a few. Or what makes it ok not to pay their people a living wage? The owners of the ones I'm thinking of certainly were not struggling for money. (And sometimes they're shitty in other ways, like weird to their teenage girl staff or racist, or making people work during COVID while lying and taking those loans)
I don't know that I oppose having any national chains ever, my economics are not thought that far forward but I'd agree Walmart is probably too large. Still, if they're paying people more than the small businesses did, even if I agree that the loss of the small business is real measurable loss, people will go work where they get paid more and shop where they can afford to shop. And that's the practical issue. No matter how much I agree in principle.
I’m suggesting that the concept of a living wage has grown out from the existence of massive corps who can easily pay their people more and are choosing not to. Small businesses cannot easily pay...
I’m suggesting that the concept of a living wage has grown out from the existence of massive corps who can easily pay their people more and are choosing not to.
Small businesses cannot easily pay their people more. The nature of how they’re run makes them less efficient and less profitable than the large corps.
This is why small businesses are dying. They cant compete.
I disagree, minimum wage was intended as a living wage. So that failure to keep up isn't about large stores, it's a lot of things to do with capitalism, but if small stores don't value workers...
I disagree, minimum wage was intended as a living wage. So that failure to keep up isn't about large stores, it's a lot of things to do with capitalism, but if small stores don't value workers they'll go elsewhere.
I know their inability to compete is part of the problem, I'm not sure how that's something we're not aware of though!
But I wasn't being paid any better before the Walmart Supercenter opened in town. And the chain movie theater didn't make my boss at the movie theater racist and sexist either. Nor did Applebee's or Chipotle make the local restaurant violate COVID rules.
I'm not absolving Walmart and their kin, I'm just not elevating "small business" to a "should always survive" category. Not all restaurants should make it. Not all small stores are worth keeping open.
Franklin Roosevelt's Statement on the National Industrial Recovery Act June 16, 1933
In my Inaugural I laid down the simple proposition that nobody is going to starve in this country. It seems to me to be equally plain that no business which depends for existence on paying less than living wages to its workers has any right to continue in this country. By "business" I mean the whole of commerce as well as the whole of industry; by workers I mean all workers, the white collar class as well as the men in overalls; and by living wages I mean more than a bare subsistence level-I mean the wages of decent living.
They haven’t increased the min wage in like 15 years thats not hard to keep up with. “Living wage” is hard to keep up with. In my town living wage is probably twice the federal poverty level....
They haven’t increased the min wage in like 15 years thats not hard to keep up with.
“Living wage” is hard to keep up with. In my town living wage is probably twice the federal poverty level. Housing expenses have quadrupled in the past four years. My local coffee shop would have to pay probably $20 an hour to have a full time worker. A latte is like $5, they cant even afford a part time worker. The owners just basically live at the shop cause they cant afford to hire anyone. They probably don’t make a living wage.
The only shops I know that are doing okay are the ones that got the covid loans and then didn’t have to pay them back.
The feds keep trying to change around small business loans and taxes to help ease this, but every time they do, they somehow change it in some specific way such that rich people can use it to enrich themselves as well.
The only people Ive found who aren’t purposely destroying the environment and society along with it are the local shops. Major corps are just as racist and sexist, they just hide behind gigantic HR departments.
Yeah federally they haven't. But many small businesses absolutely complain about state minimum increases too. And I'm aware they have a budget. And your local coffee shop is probably decent,...
They haven’t increased the min wage in like 15 years thats not hard to keep up with.
Yeah federally they haven't. But many small businesses absolutely complain about state minimum increases too. And I'm aware they have a budget.
“Living wage” is hard to keep up with. In my town living wage is probably twice the federal poverty level. Housing expenses have quadrupled in the past four years. My local coffee shop would have to pay probably $20 an hour to have a full time worker. A latte is like $5, they cant even afford a part time worker. The owners just basically live at the shop cause they cant afford to hire anyone. They probably don’t make a living wage.
And your local coffee shop is probably decent, especially if their lattes are still five bucks, but if it ends up folding that's ok - as long as it's a other small business that comes back around and does something new in that space. I don't want to replace small businesses with large ones but some think it's ok to pay poorly, violate labor laws, etc. in the name of being small businesses.
The only shops I know that are doing okay are the ones that got the covid loans and then didn’t have to pay them back.
We have a better small business setting but a local restaurant and music venue is closing and people are bummed. It'll be a new restaurant but the vibe will be different. We had a local queer owned/vegan place not be able to survive, so they went back to their catering/meal prep business. But plenty of other businesses do make it. My only complaint about business is that didn't pay the loans back are the ones who lied about it so they didn't have to by firing staff and not paying them with those loans.
The feds keep trying to change around small business loans and taxes to help ease this, but every time they do, they somehow change it in some specific way such that rich people can use it to enrich themselves as well.
State and local government can absolutely step in here. Most small business owners in my experience are relatively rich people. I'm not saying that they're waltons, but they're definitely not paycheck to paycheck before they open their business. There are exceptions for sure, especially folks who start with a smaller business such as a food truck or ghost kitchen stepping up into a restaurant space, But it still requires money to get started. Quite a bit more than I have on hand.
The only people Ive found who aren’t purposely destroying the environment and society along with it are the local shops. Major corps are just as racist and sexist, they just hide behind gigantic HR departments.
And some of those local shops have owners who voted for Trump who are as eager to pollute on a smaller scale, who treat their staff like absolute garbage, and who are allowed to do it because of who they are in the community. I had a town councilman that was being fined by the council for violating zoning and disposal laws, while he continued to sit on the council.
None of this is something that small business owners have to deal with that the general public is unaware of. Yes, overall small businesses are preferable to gigantic corporations. However, my point has consistently been that small businesses should also have to live up to standards and when you are working for one of them, making less than you would at Walmart, it makes sense why you would go apply.
(Another fun one is that small businesses frequently are not as accessible as they should be. And while some are incredibly accommodating, sometimes the best place for folks with disabilities to work are large corporations with large HR departments. It's why I have friends who work for Walmart, A cousin who works for Chick-fil-A, And why I see more people in wheelchairs working at a warehouse stores and not just as greeters. )
I primarily shop at the local book store, local yarn store, "locally owned" hardware stores, a regional alternative to Walmart, and a variety of regional and national grocery chains including my small town grocery store when I can. But the local bar that celebrated their anniversary talking about "the China Virus" (and reminding everyone how they stayed open throughout)... Let's say I know I'm not welcome there.
In my town usually when the small businesses fail, they’re replaced by some franchise. The area is “being revitalized” and so these bougie brunch n mimosa shops are all moving in and the places...
In my town usually when the small businesses fail, they’re replaced by some franchise. The area is “being revitalized” and so these bougie brunch n mimosa shops are all moving in and the places that have been there for forever end up closing cause their breakfast special is still under $10 and they’d rather retire than raise it.
Its great for the town, the new brunch places have $17 breakfasts and $8 mimosas and they’re absolutely slammed on the weekends and downtown is just bustling with traffic. Our little downtown is turning into a healthy bustling city. Beats the alternative.
They’re all lgbt friendly and etc etc but they treat their employees like shit, the restaurant is dirty, the food isn’t good.
I’m lgbt myself, but I’m from a small town and I get the culture here is pretty outdated so I have some patience and I don’t bring it up.
Some places are just outrageous and so I avoid them, like the places that would be rude to you if you wore a mask, no thanks.
But most of them are decent. Bible thumping and racist in a way that didn’t used to be considered racist in the 80s, but kind to their employees, patient with their customers and the food was great.
The bougie brunch spot almost certainly pays more, but they’ll work you to death.
So I appreciate we're down a rabbit hole about specifics to your town, etc. But I don't understand how we got here, you said that small businesses couldn't compete, and I agree. You said they deal...
So I appreciate we're down a rabbit hole about specifics to your town, etc. But I don't understand how we got here, you said that small businesses couldn't compete, and I agree. You said they deal with things we don't understand, and I don't think I agree with that.
There are good ones and bad ones out there, and towns being gentrified like yours. My current small town is the sort where yeah the couple of restaurants are almost certainly ran by people whose political beliefs I don't like, I get that.
But I still believe some small businesses can't, and ultimately shouldn't survive, not just because of large businesses, but because they're not good business concepts, run by assholes, or mistreating their staff. And that being a small business, in and of itself, is not worthy of survival. I don't understand your disagreement with this, unless it is just that you think small businesses should be allowed to pay people less, whether legally or morally, because they have thinner margins... And then we just disagree.
(Also that minimum wage was supposed to be a living wage. But that's just history. )
You suggested that it was survival of the fittest that Walmart was forcing small businesses to close. I agree that small businesses that would have failed anyway should be allowed to fail, but...
You suggested that it was survival of the fittest that Walmart was forcing small businesses to close.
I agree that small businesses that would have failed anyway should be allowed to fail, but thats not whats happening here.
No, no I didn't. I said "should they be open either" with the intent of saying sometimes both are bad. As a teen I struggled to see why Walmart was worse than where I was being paid less....
No, no I didn't. I said "should they be open either" with the intent of saying sometimes both are bad. As a teen I struggled to see why Walmart was worse than where I was being paid less.
Expressing understanding why people go work for and shop at stores like Walmart isn't the same thing as saying survival of the fittest either.
My understanding is that you’re saying not all small businesses are better than large businesses just because they’re small. I disagree. I find no redeeming qualities in a business as large as...
My understanding is that you’re saying not all small businesses are better than large businesses just because they’re small.
I disagree. I find no redeeming qualities in a business as large as Walmart because the superficial short term gains experienced by the store workers and the customers are outweighed by the massive damage they’re doing to our society and our planet.
If they didn’t exist, the planet would still be dying, but being an entity as big as they are gives them the power to do something about it and they choose not to. Thats unforgivable.
Large businesses have gobbled up small businesses indiscriminately for a hundred years now and they’ve only managed to make everything worse.
If a small business doesn’t want to pay its employees you can leave and go to another one. If Walmart comes in and all the small businesses shut down, then you cant leave.
Businesses as large as Walmart are bad for society.
I've explained myself thoroughly multiple times and you're insisting on disagreeing with what I haven't said. Some small business are in fact worse by some metrics than large businesses because...
I've explained myself thoroughly multiple times and you're insisting on disagreeing with what I haven't said.
Some small business are in fact worse by some metrics than large businesses because they're outright directly and actively abusive and harmful to employees or exploit the vulnerable (but that wasn't my point. But it's all in how you're measuring bad. In the timeline of the sun none of this matters.
My point was that small businesses don't all deserve to survive because they're small. Those are different. Please don't bother to repeat yourself.
The shitty small businesses don’t deserve to be knocked out by Walmart. Its one thing for them to fail on their own, but Walmart just comes in and kills everything.
The shitty small businesses don’t deserve to be knocked out by Walmart.
Its one thing for them to fail on their own, but Walmart just comes in and kills everything.
Except walmart doesn't pay a living wage either... https://www.worldhunger.org/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-public-assistance/ edit woops that link is just a redirect to:...
If you continue reading further down the chain I mentioned that. Also I was 16 at the time and "living wage" was not on my mind. That report is also ten years old and while I'm sure they're not...
If you continue reading further down the chain I mentioned that. Also I was 16 at the time and "living wage" was not on my mind.
That report is also ten years old and while I'm sure they're not better it's worth using current data. I was only... 30ish when it came out.
Here are a couple companion pieces that add more support and data to the Atlantic piece: https://www.salon.com/2024/03/27/hidden-costs-public-burden-the-real-toll-of-walmarts-always-low-prices/...
Here are a couple companion pieces that add more support and data to the Atlantic piece:
This article brings up some more points about how Walmart devastates communities:
For example, as Walmart expanded its traditional stores into Supercenters, it would often construct a new, larger building nearby instead of simply adding on to the existing one. Those old stores frequently sat empty or underused, just like the original Walmart in Rogers. That may be why Walmart openings have been linked to declines in nearby home values.
Walmart and other major retailers have made the situation even worse by including restrictive covenants in the deeds of old buildings, which prevent other retailers from using the space for competitive purposes. These provisions perpetuate food deserts and tie the hands of communities struggling to figure out what to do with these ghost buildings. After all, it’s not easy to find a use for an old Walmart that doesn’t involve grocery or retail. One former Walmart Supercenter in Brownsville, Texas, became the center of a national debate when it was bought by a firm detaining migrant children.
Limiting competition is apparently not enough for Walmart. The company understands what happens to communities when its stores are abandoned, and it uses this knowledge to leverage a tax break. The company often engages in what is known as the “dark stores” loophole, a tax dodge that lets it evade millions in property taxes by valuing its stores as if they were closed.
There's a lot more to this article, it's a really good companion piece, I think.
Obviously left-leaning, but talks about how Walmart leverages taxpayers money so that we are all subsidizing their inadequate worker's wages and benefits.
In 2023, the chain increased the minimum wage for roughly 340,000 of its hourly workers in the United States by as much as $2 an hour in some stores, to $17.50 — leaving its rates behind its competitors, including Costco and Target — with its overall range from $14–19 per hour depending on location. That’s a pittance.
The living wage in the United States — the income level at which a family can afford the basics — hit $25.02 an hour in 2024.
and:
70 percent of Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program (SNAP) and Medicaid users in their study were full-time workers, with 90 percent of them in the private sector. A significant number of them worked in restaurants and department or grocery stores.
Surprise, surprise — Walmart ranked among the top four employers whose workers relied on Medicaid and SNAP. As Eli Rosenberg broke down in the Washington Post, in nine states alone, Walmart had 14,500 employees on SNAP and 10,350 on Medicaid. Other top offenders included McDonalds, Dollar Tree, Amazon, Burger King, and FedEx.
As you mentioned, that article has a bias. They're essentially lying about Walmart store 1. Here's the original location in active use. It's located on a stroad which has always been near the...
Those old stores frequently sat empty or underused, just like the original Walmart in Rogers.
As you mentioned, that article has a bias. They're essentially lying about Walmart store 1. Here's the original location in active use. It's located on a stroad which has always been near the cheaper, working-class side of town (which has to do with where the railroads were built through Arkansas). There are dozens of underutilized strip mall style locations along that stroad, and it feels like cherry picking to say Walmart's original location is special. The only thing that makes it special is it got a write up in the local paper when it was damaged by a tornado this year.
Walmart and other major retailers have made the situation even worse by including restrictive covenants in the deeds of old buildings, which prevent other retailers from using the space for competitive purposes.
This is true, and it's a serious problem. The restrictive covenants preventing other grocers from taking over a space unfairly limits competition and harms consumers. I don't know what the solution is since the US federal government generally doesn't have jurisdiction over land covenants. Even many states and cities have failed to overturn these kinds of restrictions, preventing replacement grocers from moving into towns.
This article seems to be drawing some broad conclusions prematurely. Their citations are working papers which have not been fully peer reviewed, and I'm not sure their results are anywhere close...
This article seems to be drawing some broad conclusions prematurely. Their citations are working papers which have not been fully peer reviewed, and I'm not sure their results are anywhere close to statistically significant with p values above 0.10 buried at the end which is always a red flag.
Their control group is cities where Walmart ended up not opening due to local opposition. It's entirely possible they're actually studying some hidden confounding variable. It's possible that cities where Walmart shows up are already on the down-swing economically, and cities that reject it are highly educated and growing.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but what natural study that doesn't involve the researchers e.g. bombing a randomized set of walmarts, would produce a sufficiently independent control group?
Their control group is cities where Walmart ended up not opening due to local opposition. It's entirely possible they're actually studying some hidden confounding variable. It's possible that cities where Walmart shows up are already on the down-swing economically, and cities that reject it are highly educated and growing.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but what natural study that doesn't involve the researchers e.g. bombing a randomized set of walmarts, would produce a sufficiently independent control group?
Wait, Let 'em cook... But no you're correct, short of a town refusing to allow Walmart to build when they wanted to, and Walmart not just building right outside the city limits...
Wait, Let 'em cook...
But no you're correct, short of a town refusing to allow Walmart to build when they wanted to, and Walmart not just building right outside the city limits...
Yeah, it's really hard to identify a good control group for a natural experiment in this case. But if that's the case, their results are bunk because it's a poor study.
Yeah, it's really hard to identify a good control group for a natural experiment in this case. But if that's the case, their results are bunk because it's a poor study.
I'm not asking for a perfect double blind study. I'm asking for p values better than 0.18 for an effect this big. Natural experiments are an easy methodology to abuse to support narratives we want...
I'm not asking for a perfect double blind study. I'm asking for p values better than 0.18 for an effect this big. Natural experiments are an easy methodology to abuse to support narratives we want to believe.
They've identified a correlation, but that doesn't prove it's the cause. There are a lot of other explanations that could explain why towns with Walmarts have these economic outcomes.
I agree it's a hard problem to study, but that doesn't make their data nor analysis any good. Especially when we want to believe the results of the study, we should carefully analyze the...
I agree it's a hard problem to study, but that doesn't make their data nor analysis any good.
Especially when we want to believe the results of the study, we should carefully analyze the supporting evidence, and it's really weak in this case.
This seems pretty obvious and intuitive when you think about what Walmart actually is, and what it seems to optimize. Walmart is extremely efficient, and every single aspect of how it works is...
This seems pretty obvious and intuitive when you think about what Walmart actually is, and what it seems to optimize.
Walmart is extremely efficient, and every single aspect of how it works is designed for that efficiency. When we talk about "efficiency", we're talking about something that avoids unnecessary waste, weather in the form of work, heat, electricity, or some other aspect. The aspect that Walmart is efficient in is money. It buys in bulk from suppliers it wholely owns or effectively controls, which means it avoids the overhead numerous small suppliers. It has dead simple procedures and systems that mean that it can hire anyone, pay them peanuts, and train them in a day. If they quit, someone will be there to replace them by the end of their shift.
They don't leave money on the table. Just like an extremely efficient furnace that doesn't leak heat, Walmart largely doesn't leak money. That's horrible for local communities, who rely on businesses "leaking" money to make their economies work. With Walmart, the entire goal, which they've become very good at, is to take wealth, and siphon it directly to the owners of the company, with as little "leakage" as possible. That means never leaving money on the table from their suppliers, from their employees, or from their customers.
Arguments about how "actually Walmart is good because groceries are cheap" fall flat, because effectively they're saying "actually Walmart is good because it's an extremely efficient machine for extracting wealth".
A local chain that's not quite as efficient may have slightly higher prices, yes, but their inefficiency is what makes them sustainable. Their workers are paid better because they can't afford to constantly replace them. Their suppliers are better paid because they don't have the leverage to bully them into lower prices, and most importantly, profits from the stores stay with a guy who lives in the area, not an obscenely wealthy family who did nothing to earn it, and largely just horde it.
Some research that backs up what many of us who watched it happen already knew: Walmart decimated local economies en mass, and the tale that lower consumer prices justifies their behavior unsurprisingly turns out to be a lie.
See also: Amazon
I have watched it happen, but I always thought it was for a reason that the article and the studies didn’t mention.
Walmart is siphoning money away from the communities it moves into.
When I shop local, a lot of that money goes back into the local economy. If I shop at Walmart it all immediately gets siphoned far, far away, and then Walmart blesses a few workers with a very small percentage. Since more people shop there than people who work there, most of the money spent at Walmart leaves the community.
What I always struggled with, especially as a teen working retail in a mom&pop department store, was that Walmart paid better than what I made at the local store and the local movie theater. They're awful for the economy but I understand why people shop and work there. Like when a DG opens up and destroys the local grocery store but still pays more... Idk I know small businesses run on thin margins but if they're not able to pay a living wage, should they be open either?
Same some of the worst paying jobs Ive worked were small businesses.
It seems every time I switch jobs, I go to a bigger company and I get paid more at the bigger company.
What Ive noticed is that such entities tend to have less, more highly paid, workers. So if you’re lucky enough to snag a job at Walmart after all the local shops close, that’s great, but Walmart has now left a lot of unemployed people in their wake.
Yeah and I think it's hard to quantify, especially at the time, how many jobs will ultimately be lost. But it was a real sticking point for me.
I do, because of that, think that small business owners don't all deserve to run a small business. If you can't pay your people properly, don't run a business. (Walmart also does not pay their people properly, mind you)
Having also seen many small business hells, I've also seen success stories. One that comes to mind is a small grocer with lifetime staffers and a pension.
I think a lot of small business woes would be solved with eliminating a lot of worker-rights exemptions they get, like FMLA. Also providing grants to start cooperatives where the workers have a vote would help immensely.
There also used to exist a proper middle ground that did do better than both: The regional chain. Large enough to be have consistent wages with fluctuating sales, enough management to avoid the 'owner is a raging asshole' problem, but small enough that most of the money remained in the local economy.
Agreed. However in the length of time you were discussing regional chains, Kroger bought them all.
I think theres a lot of pressure on small business that we’re not aware of. Their expenses keep increasing just like ours do.
Businesses just shouldn’t be allowed to get as big as Walmart. Its so massive it could literally open 100 stores in all the small towns, give away everything in the stores for free and still pay their employees more.
The price we all pay for that is that our whole entire world is filled to the brim with cheap plastic crap.
I guess I'm not sure what we're not aware of? I've never ran one but worked for quite a few. Or what makes it ok not to pay their people a living wage? The owners of the ones I'm thinking of certainly were not struggling for money. (And sometimes they're shitty in other ways, like weird to their teenage girl staff or racist, or making people work during COVID while lying and taking those loans)
I don't know that I oppose having any national chains ever, my economics are not thought that far forward but I'd agree Walmart is probably too large. Still, if they're paying people more than the small businesses did, even if I agree that the loss of the small business is real measurable loss, people will go work where they get paid more and shop where they can afford to shop. And that's the practical issue. No matter how much I agree in principle.
I’m suggesting that the concept of a living wage has grown out from the existence of massive corps who can easily pay their people more and are choosing not to.
Small businesses cannot easily pay their people more. The nature of how they’re run makes them less efficient and less profitable than the large corps.
This is why small businesses are dying. They cant compete.
I disagree, minimum wage was intended as a living wage. So that failure to keep up isn't about large stores, it's a lot of things to do with capitalism, but if small stores don't value workers they'll go elsewhere.
I know their inability to compete is part of the problem, I'm not sure how that's something we're not aware of though!
But I wasn't being paid any better before the Walmart Supercenter opened in town. And the chain movie theater didn't make my boss at the movie theater racist and sexist either. Nor did Applebee's or Chipotle make the local restaurant violate COVID rules.
I'm not absolving Walmart and their kin, I'm just not elevating "small business" to a "should always survive" category. Not all restaurants should make it. Not all small stores are worth keeping open.
Franklin Roosevelt's Statement on the National Industrial Recovery Act June 16, 1933
They haven’t increased the min wage in like 15 years thats not hard to keep up with.
“Living wage” is hard to keep up with. In my town living wage is probably twice the federal poverty level. Housing expenses have quadrupled in the past four years. My local coffee shop would have to pay probably $20 an hour to have a full time worker. A latte is like $5, they cant even afford a part time worker. The owners just basically live at the shop cause they cant afford to hire anyone. They probably don’t make a living wage.
The only shops I know that are doing okay are the ones that got the covid loans and then didn’t have to pay them back.
The feds keep trying to change around small business loans and taxes to help ease this, but every time they do, they somehow change it in some specific way such that rich people can use it to enrich themselves as well.
The only people Ive found who aren’t purposely destroying the environment and society along with it are the local shops. Major corps are just as racist and sexist, they just hide behind gigantic HR departments.
Yeah federally they haven't. But many small businesses absolutely complain about state minimum increases too. And I'm aware they have a budget.
And your local coffee shop is probably decent, especially if their lattes are still five bucks, but if it ends up folding that's ok - as long as it's a other small business that comes back around and does something new in that space. I don't want to replace small businesses with large ones but some think it's ok to pay poorly, violate labor laws, etc. in the name of being small businesses.
We have a better small business setting but a local restaurant and music venue is closing and people are bummed. It'll be a new restaurant but the vibe will be different. We had a local queer owned/vegan place not be able to survive, so they went back to their catering/meal prep business. But plenty of other businesses do make it. My only complaint about business is that didn't pay the loans back are the ones who lied about it so they didn't have to by firing staff and not paying them with those loans.
State and local government can absolutely step in here. Most small business owners in my experience are relatively rich people. I'm not saying that they're waltons, but they're definitely not paycheck to paycheck before they open their business. There are exceptions for sure, especially folks who start with a smaller business such as a food truck or ghost kitchen stepping up into a restaurant space, But it still requires money to get started. Quite a bit more than I have on hand.
And some of those local shops have owners who voted for Trump who are as eager to pollute on a smaller scale, who treat their staff like absolute garbage, and who are allowed to do it because of who they are in the community. I had a town councilman that was being fined by the council for violating zoning and disposal laws, while he continued to sit on the council.
None of this is something that small business owners have to deal with that the general public is unaware of. Yes, overall small businesses are preferable to gigantic corporations. However, my point has consistently been that small businesses should also have to live up to standards and when you are working for one of them, making less than you would at Walmart, it makes sense why you would go apply.
(Another fun one is that small businesses frequently are not as accessible as they should be. And while some are incredibly accommodating, sometimes the best place for folks with disabilities to work are large corporations with large HR departments. It's why I have friends who work for Walmart, A cousin who works for Chick-fil-A, And why I see more people in wheelchairs working at a warehouse stores and not just as greeters. )
I primarily shop at the local book store, local yarn store, "locally owned" hardware stores, a regional alternative to Walmart, and a variety of regional and national grocery chains including my small town grocery store when I can. But the local bar that celebrated their anniversary talking about "the China Virus" (and reminding everyone how they stayed open throughout)... Let's say I know I'm not welcome there.
In my town usually when the small businesses fail, they’re replaced by some franchise. The area is “being revitalized” and so these bougie brunch n mimosa shops are all moving in and the places that have been there for forever end up closing cause their breakfast special is still under $10 and they’d rather retire than raise it.
Its great for the town, the new brunch places have $17 breakfasts and $8 mimosas and they’re absolutely slammed on the weekends and downtown is just bustling with traffic. Our little downtown is turning into a healthy bustling city. Beats the alternative.
They’re all lgbt friendly and etc etc but they treat their employees like shit, the restaurant is dirty, the food isn’t good.
I’m lgbt myself, but I’m from a small town and I get the culture here is pretty outdated so I have some patience and I don’t bring it up.
Some places are just outrageous and so I avoid them, like the places that would be rude to you if you wore a mask, no thanks.
But most of them are decent. Bible thumping and racist in a way that didn’t used to be considered racist in the 80s, but kind to their employees, patient with their customers and the food was great.
The bougie brunch spot almost certainly pays more, but they’ll work you to death.
So I appreciate we're down a rabbit hole about specifics to your town, etc. But I don't understand how we got here, you said that small businesses couldn't compete, and I agree. You said they deal with things we don't understand, and I don't think I agree with that.
There are good ones and bad ones out there, and towns being gentrified like yours. My current small town is the sort where yeah the couple of restaurants are almost certainly ran by people whose political beliefs I don't like, I get that.
But I still believe some small businesses can't, and ultimately shouldn't survive, not just because of large businesses, but because they're not good business concepts, run by assholes, or mistreating their staff. And that being a small business, in and of itself, is not worthy of survival. I don't understand your disagreement with this, unless it is just that you think small businesses should be allowed to pay people less, whether legally or morally, because they have thinner margins... And then we just disagree.
(Also that minimum wage was supposed to be a living wage. But that's just history. )
You suggested that it was survival of the fittest that Walmart was forcing small businesses to close.
I agree that small businesses that would have failed anyway should be allowed to fail, but thats not whats happening here.
No, no I didn't. I said "should they be open either" with the intent of saying sometimes both are bad. As a teen I struggled to see why Walmart was worse than where I was being paid less.
Expressing understanding why people go work for and shop at stores like Walmart isn't the same thing as saying survival of the fittest either.
Yeah it shouldn’t be up to the consumers to protect themselves. The government shouldn’t let companies grow to be that massive.
I feel like you're deliberately not hearing me now.
My understanding is that you’re saying not all small businesses are better than large businesses just because they’re small.
I disagree. I find no redeeming qualities in a business as large as Walmart because the superficial short term gains experienced by the store workers and the customers are outweighed by the massive damage they’re doing to our society and our planet.
If they didn’t exist, the planet would still be dying, but being an entity as big as they are gives them the power to do something about it and they choose not to. Thats unforgivable.
Large businesses have gobbled up small businesses indiscriminately for a hundred years now and they’ve only managed to make everything worse.
If a small business doesn’t want to pay its employees you can leave and go to another one. If Walmart comes in and all the small businesses shut down, then you cant leave.
Businesses as large as Walmart are bad for society.
I've explained myself thoroughly multiple times and you're insisting on disagreeing with what I haven't said.
Some small business are in fact worse by some metrics than large businesses because they're outright directly and actively abusive and harmful to employees or exploit the vulnerable (but that wasn't my point. But it's all in how you're measuring bad. In the timeline of the sun none of this matters.
My point was that small businesses don't all deserve to survive because they're small. Those are different. Please don't bother to repeat yourself.
The shitty small businesses don’t deserve to be knocked out by Walmart.
Its one thing for them to fail on their own, but Walmart just comes in and kills everything.
Cool. I'm being more explicit this time that I'm done running in circles with you. I don't care.
You want me to stop responding first?
Except walmart doesn't pay a living wage either... https://www.worldhunger.org/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-public-assistance/
edit woops that link is just a redirect to:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/clareoconnor/2014/04/15/report-walmart-workers-cost-taxpayers-6-2-billion-in-public-assistance/#2fb08b41720b
If you continue reading further down the chain I mentioned that. Also I was 16 at the time and "living wage" was not on my mind.
That report is also ten years old and while I'm sure they're not better it's worth using current data. I was only... 30ish when it came out.
Here are a couple companion pieces that add more support and data to the Atlantic piece:
https://www.salon.com/2024/03/27/hidden-costs-public-burden-the-real-toll-of-walmarts-always-low-prices/
This article brings up some more points about how Walmart devastates communities:
There's a lot more to this article, it's a really good companion piece, I think.
Also:
https://jacobin.com/2024/05/walmart-living-wage-medicaid-snap
Obviously left-leaning, but talks about how Walmart leverages taxpayers money so that we are all subsidizing their inadequate worker's wages and benefits.
and:
As you mentioned, that article has a bias. They're essentially lying about Walmart store 1. Here's the original location in active use. It's located on a stroad which has always been near the cheaper, working-class side of town (which has to do with where the railroads were built through Arkansas). There are dozens of underutilized strip mall style locations along that stroad, and it feels like cherry picking to say Walmart's original location is special. The only thing that makes it special is it got a write up in the local paper when it was damaged by a tornado this year.
This is true, and it's a serious problem. The restrictive covenants preventing other grocers from taking over a space unfairly limits competition and harms consumers. I don't know what the solution is since the US federal government generally doesn't have jurisdiction over land covenants. Even many states and cities have failed to overturn these kinds of restrictions, preventing replacement grocers from moving into towns.
This article seems to be drawing some broad conclusions prematurely. Their citations are working papers which have not been fully peer reviewed, and I'm not sure their results are anywhere close to statistically significant with p values above 0.10 buried at the end which is always a red flag.
Their control group is cities where Walmart ended up not opening due to local opposition. It's entirely possible they're actually studying some hidden confounding variable. It's possible that cities where Walmart shows up are already on the down-swing economically, and cities that reject it are highly educated and growing.
I'm not saying you're wrong, but what natural study that doesn't involve the researchers e.g. bombing a randomized set of walmarts, would produce a sufficiently independent control group?
Wait, Let 'em cook...
But no you're correct, short of a town refusing to allow Walmart to build when they wanted to, and Walmart not just building right outside the city limits...
Yeah, it's really hard to identify a good control group for a natural experiment in this case. But if that's the case, their results are bunk because it's a poor study.
The options aren't "perfect double blind" or "bunk."
I'm not asking for a perfect double blind study. I'm asking for p values better than 0.18 for an effect this big. Natural experiments are an easy methodology to abuse to support narratives we want to believe.
They've identified a correlation, but that doesn't prove it's the cause. There are a lot of other explanations that could explain why towns with Walmarts have these economic outcomes.
Sure that's fair and I'm not reading the studies in full, but the way your last comment was framed suggested otherwise. I follow you now
I agree it's a hard problem to study, but that doesn't make their data nor analysis any good.
Especially when we want to believe the results of the study, we should carefully analyze the supporting evidence, and it's really weak in this case.
This seems pretty obvious and intuitive when you think about what Walmart actually is, and what it seems to optimize.
Walmart is extremely efficient, and every single aspect of how it works is designed for that efficiency. When we talk about "efficiency", we're talking about something that avoids unnecessary waste, weather in the form of work, heat, electricity, or some other aspect. The aspect that Walmart is efficient in is money. It buys in bulk from suppliers it wholely owns or effectively controls, which means it avoids the overhead numerous small suppliers. It has dead simple procedures and systems that mean that it can hire anyone, pay them peanuts, and train them in a day. If they quit, someone will be there to replace them by the end of their shift.
They don't leave money on the table. Just like an extremely efficient furnace that doesn't leak heat, Walmart largely doesn't leak money. That's horrible for local communities, who rely on businesses "leaking" money to make their economies work. With Walmart, the entire goal, which they've become very good at, is to take wealth, and siphon it directly to the owners of the company, with as little "leakage" as possible. That means never leaving money on the table from their suppliers, from their employees, or from their customers.
Arguments about how "actually Walmart is good because groceries are cheap" fall flat, because effectively they're saying "actually Walmart is good because it's an extremely efficient machine for extracting wealth".
A local chain that's not quite as efficient may have slightly higher prices, yes, but their inefficiency is what makes them sustainable. Their workers are paid better because they can't afford to constantly replace them. Their suppliers are better paid because they don't have the leverage to bully them into lower prices, and most importantly, profits from the stores stay with a guy who lives in the area, not an obscenely wealthy family who did nothing to earn it, and largely just horde it.