It's a very interesting insight! My gripes with WoW were always more narrative rather than gameplay wise. I think I'd enjoy the game if it wasn't so bound by it's formula. I just never felt like I...
It's a very interesting insight!
My gripes with WoW were always more narrative rather than gameplay wise. I think I'd enjoy the game if it wasn't so bound by it's formula. I just never felt like I was in a "World" of Warcraft. Always just felt like a game. But when I play open world games, I want to be immersed. Games like Cyberpunk 2077, Witcher, even stuff like Assassin's Creed Odyssey. They are all very immersive. Wow never did that to me and I'm not quite sure why, because the narrative problems I have with it come more from its overarching stories.
What you say about WoW is interesting because I have a different perception. I haven't played Cyberpunk 2077, but I played Assassin's Creed on occasion, and, more extensively, Witcher 3. The world...
What you say about WoW is interesting because I have a different perception.
I haven't played Cyberpunk 2077, but I played Assassin's Creed on occasion, and, more extensively, Witcher 3. The world of Witcher 3 is superb and immersive. However, I have never played (or "lived") in a world that felt more real, vibrant, and consistent than World of Warcraft.
At this point, I must ask when you played WoW, because, if you played it post-Cataclysm, the experience you had was very different than what I am describing. The World of modern WoW is entirely abstracted, broken, and fractioned by an excess of convenience, systems, and mechanics. It is fragmented and random. The world I knew in Cataclysm, and even more so in Classic WoW, is not like that at all.
I'll admit that WoW's narrative is awful and skippable. That part of the worldbuilding is lacking and I largely ignore it. But the world itself feels alive like no other. This is only enhanced by the presence of other players, but even just with the NPCs I am not playing a game: I am in Azeroth. The way the NPCs move is sensible, their actions, routes, and dialogue feel natural and organic. If something's being built, you see workers. The world begs to be explored and attacks me at every step.
When I get on a "taxi" griffon, I am taken through the entire route, and this is not a loading animation -- I can see the stats on the mobs below, the geological landmarks, things I can get close to and interact with. I can see the mining nodes and the materials available in the zones I fly over! As we do in the real world, I slowly build familiarity with these lifelike zones. The large actually is large. What the game claims to be far and removed actually feels far and removed. Here I am like a migrant in a new metropolis understanding the routes, the tough spots, and where I should be. Mapping, exploring, killing, gathering. I am in the "World" of Warcraft, and, for me, it wouldn't work any other way.
I'm considering using an "archeology" addon just so I engage with the world even more -- but I really shouldn't because Classic WoW is addicted enough as it is.
Oh my, this brought back memories. I started playing in late 2004 (... damn that was 20 years ago, and I wasn't even 20 myself...) and I was totally immersed in it. Early WoW was a stroke of...
When I get on a "taxi" griffon, I am taken through the entire route, and this is not a loading animation
Oh my, this brought back memories. I started playing in late 2004 (... damn that was 20 years ago, and I wasn't even 20 myself...) and I was totally immersed in it. Early WoW was a stroke of genius, there was the right amount of handholding, and the leveling was interesting because you got to explore a whole world at your own pace.
To add to this, there was a marked change in zone design that had started creeping in by WotLK and fully taken root by Cataclysm. Vanilla and TBC were designed by giving the world artists pieces...
To add to this, there was a marked change in zone design that had started creeping in by WotLK and fully taken root by Cataclysm.
Vanilla and TBC were designed by giving the world artists pieces of concept art and some bits of lore and plot beats to use as a guide and then giving them mostly free reign to build zones as they saw fit. After the zone was mostly finished, the quest team would take a pass through and write quests to fit the map. This resulted in parts of zone maps existing without any particular purpose which made for a more organic, “lived in” feel since it’s more analogous to the real world where things oftentimes aren’t planned or organized and just are the way they are for reasons that may only ever be known to a handful of individuals.
This was flipped on its head in WotLK and especially Cataclysm and beyond, where instead zone designs were made to fit already-written quests and story like a glove, without so much as a square meter not being tied to some quest objective or event or something. Expansions since then have by and large felt much more “game-y” and less like a world.
That dissonance between the zone design and quest/story teams (perhaps unintentionally) added a lot of perceived depth in the original game. I wish newer productions would try to leverage this intentionally because it’s surprisingly simple to implement and I would bet probably actually cheaper than trying to perfectly coordinate the two teams.
Had no idea about that aspect of world design, but that's very interesting and makes so much more sense. I absolutely had the sense during wotlk that the game was feeling more gamey and definitely...
Had no idea about that aspect of world design, but that's very interesting and makes so much more sense.
I absolutely had the sense during wotlk that the game was feeling more gamey and definitely connected it to the zones feeling less like places and more like game zones.
This is why I still go back to Vanilla fairly regularly, usually on private servers. That original experience holds up well, I feel
Interesting, because I've always been a gamer for whom "open world" basically excludes immersion or narrative. And I have yet to play an open world game that convinces me it's possible, as all of...
But when I play open world games, I want to be immersed.
Interesting, because I've always been a gamer for whom "open world" basically excludes immersion or narrative. And I have yet to play an open world game that convinces me it's possible, as all of them always end up being wide, open, shallow and dead. I think Witcher 3 came the closest (plus it conceded that a single open world would be a terrible idea), but even that I can't help but desire a non-open version of to enforce atmosphere and narrative more tightly.
This leads to me using MMORPGs - ever since EQ1 - as a socialization tool, not a game, primarily. And they work well for that, it's not just about the chatting about the feeling of running into other players doing their own stuff, but in a way where everyone constantly interacts with everyone else even in only minor ways.
It's a very interesting insight!
My gripes with WoW were always more narrative rather than gameplay wise. I think I'd enjoy the game if it wasn't so bound by it's formula. I just never felt like I was in a "World" of Warcraft. Always just felt like a game. But when I play open world games, I want to be immersed. Games like Cyberpunk 2077, Witcher, even stuff like Assassin's Creed Odyssey. They are all very immersive. Wow never did that to me and I'm not quite sure why, because the narrative problems I have with it come more from its overarching stories.
What you say about WoW is interesting because I have a different perception.
I haven't played Cyberpunk 2077, but I played Assassin's Creed on occasion, and, more extensively, Witcher 3. The world of Witcher 3 is superb and immersive. However, I have never played (or "lived") in a world that felt more real, vibrant, and consistent than World of Warcraft.
At this point, I must ask when you played WoW, because, if you played it post-Cataclysm, the experience you had was very different than what I am describing. The World of modern WoW is entirely abstracted, broken, and fractioned by an excess of convenience, systems, and mechanics. It is fragmented and random. The world I knew in Cataclysm, and even more so in Classic WoW, is not like that at all.
I'll admit that WoW's narrative is awful and skippable. That part of the worldbuilding is lacking and I largely ignore it. But the world itself feels alive like no other. This is only enhanced by the presence of other players, but even just with the NPCs I am not playing a game: I am in Azeroth. The way the NPCs move is sensible, their actions, routes, and dialogue feel natural and organic. If something's being built, you see workers. The world begs to be explored and attacks me at every step.
When I get on a "taxi" griffon, I am taken through the entire route, and this is not a loading animation -- I can see the stats on the mobs below, the geological landmarks, things I can get close to and interact with. I can see the mining nodes and the materials available in the zones I fly over! As we do in the real world, I slowly build familiarity with these lifelike zones. The large actually is large. What the game claims to be far and removed actually feels far and removed. Here I am like a migrant in a new metropolis understanding the routes, the tough spots, and where I should be. Mapping, exploring, killing, gathering. I am in the "World" of Warcraft, and, for me, it wouldn't work any other way.
I'm considering using an "archeology" addon just so I engage with the world even more -- but I really shouldn't because Classic WoW is addicted enough as it is.
Oh my, this brought back memories. I started playing in late 2004 (... damn that was 20 years ago, and I wasn't even 20 myself...) and I was totally immersed in it. Early WoW was a stroke of genius, there was the right amount of handholding, and the leveling was interesting because you got to explore a whole world at your own pace.
Nostalgia trigger for those who payed Undead: the original Brill Tavern music https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5rZEpb3nwY
To add to this, there was a marked change in zone design that had started creeping in by WotLK and fully taken root by Cataclysm.
Vanilla and TBC were designed by giving the world artists pieces of concept art and some bits of lore and plot beats to use as a guide and then giving them mostly free reign to build zones as they saw fit. After the zone was mostly finished, the quest team would take a pass through and write quests to fit the map. This resulted in parts of zone maps existing without any particular purpose which made for a more organic, “lived in” feel since it’s more analogous to the real world where things oftentimes aren’t planned or organized and just are the way they are for reasons that may only ever be known to a handful of individuals.
This was flipped on its head in WotLK and especially Cataclysm and beyond, where instead zone designs were made to fit already-written quests and story like a glove, without so much as a square meter not being tied to some quest objective or event or something. Expansions since then have by and large felt much more “game-y” and less like a world.
That dissonance between the zone design and quest/story teams (perhaps unintentionally) added a lot of perceived depth in the original game. I wish newer productions would try to leverage this intentionally because it’s surprisingly simple to implement and I would bet probably actually cheaper than trying to perfectly coordinate the two teams.
Had no idea about that aspect of world design, but that's very interesting and makes so much more sense.
I absolutely had the sense during wotlk that the game was feeling more gamey and definitely connected it to the zones feeling less like places and more like game zones.
This is why I still go back to Vanilla fairly regularly, usually on private servers. That original experience holds up well, I feel
Interesting, because I've always been a gamer for whom "open world" basically excludes immersion or narrative. And I have yet to play an open world game that convinces me it's possible, as all of them always end up being wide, open, shallow and dead. I think Witcher 3 came the closest (plus it conceded that a single open world would be a terrible idea), but even that I can't help but desire a non-open version of to enforce atmosphere and narrative more tightly.
This leads to me using MMORPGs - ever since EQ1 - as a socialization tool, not a game, primarily. And they work well for that, it's not just about the chatting about the feeling of running into other players doing their own stuff, but in a way where everyone constantly interacts with everyone else even in only minor ways.
The original design was brilliant in many ways. There was a reason it was nicknamed world of warcrach