32 votes

Oregon legalizes psilocybin mushrooms (for therapeutic purposes) and decriminalizes all drugs

20 comments

  1. [11]
    archevel
    Link
    Regardless of your position on drugs I can't see anyone believing that criminalisation of drug use actually helps anyone stuck in drug abuse. Also punishment in general doesn't seem to dissuade...

    Regardless of your position on drugs I can't see anyone believing that criminalisation of drug use actually helps anyone stuck in drug abuse. Also punishment in general doesn't seem to dissuade people from crime... Anyway, the sensible approach to this might be to have high taxes on the sale of substances. Then use that tax revenue to finance rehabilitation. This way you could also ensure some standards on the products being sold. Might seem a bit backwards, but I think the result would be more humane.

    14 votes
    1. [10]
      grungegun
      Link Parent
      The Wire managed to pull me from uncertain -> decriminalize. If you know someone who thinks this is a bad idea, I'd suggest watching that show with them.

      The Wire managed to pull me from uncertain -> decriminalize. If you know someone who thinks this is a bad idea, I'd suggest watching that show with them.

      4 votes
      1. [9]
        arp242
        Link Parent
        I've seen The Wire; twice. I think it's a great show. However: Drug cartels commit some pretty horrific crimes in countries like Mexico (and also others in central and south America), and the US...

        I've seen The Wire; twice. I think it's a great show. However:

        • Drug cartels commit some pretty horrific crimes in countries like Mexico (and also others in central and south America), and the US decriminalizing all substances would help those cartels. I find this problematic, and any decriminalisation would require this to be addressed carefully. Just because the crimes don't happen in your country doesn't mean you can't be (morally) accountable for facilitating them.

        • Drug legalisation (not the same as decriminalisation, but it's what the parent advocated for) isn't really something that has been tried in modern times, and I'm not so sure if it's a good idea. Especially the opioid crisis has left me skeptical at any rate, and alcohol abuse is also a bit of a problem. I think this is something where it would be wise to proceed carefully and conservatively, and keep a close eye on things and adjust policy quickly when needed.

        • In that sense, not all drugs are equal. Weed or MDMA are comparatively harmless as far as we know, heroine or the like is quite a different story. I'm not so sure a "one size fits all" policy would be wise.

        • I'm not so sure how much decriminalisation of drugs will help with the problems in The Wire. Poor folk still gonna be poor and bad underfunded public education still gonna be bad and underfunded.

        In short, I feel it's all pretty complex and I suspect that no matter what we do it's going to suck in some way; it's just figuring out where the best trade-offs are at.

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          Gaywallet
          Link Parent
          I'm mixed on this point, because decriminalizing them may pave a path for other countries to do the same. A major reason why there's so much violence is precisely because it is criminal. Mob rule...

          the US decriminalizing all substances would help those cartels

          I'm mixed on this point, because decriminalizing them may pave a path for other countries to do the same. A major reason why there's so much violence is precisely because it is criminal. Mob rule over alcohol more or less went away entirely really not all that long after prohibition ended. Something similar might be seen with drug cartels, but it's hard to know without somewhere where it's legalized. We can look at marijuana and how local grow operations have taken over most of what the cartel has been doing as a guide, but it's mixed because in some states it's not legal yet.

          the opioid crisis has left me skeptical at any rate

          How is this related to drug legalization at all? This problem is shitty oversight of doctors and greed lending them to over-prescribe in order to get kickbacks from pharma companies. This has only become worse because instead of attempting to treat the problem (opioid addiction) we have been trying to target the people who contributed to the problem (making it harder and harder to prescribe these drugs) so the addicts turn to illegal sources and end up killing themselves with overdoses.

          alcohol abuse is also a bit of a problem

          It's also something we more or less ignore as a society. "Oh he's just a drunk" is a socially acceptable excuse. "Oh he's just a heroin addict" is not. This is problematic. While we tax alcohol and do use it to help fund addiction recovery programs, we don't tax it a ton as compared to other drugs. We could very easily raise taxes and provide better education for all and resources for addicts.

          Weed or MDMA are comparatively harmless as far as we know, heroine or the like is quite a different story.

          There's a fantastic paper that came out a decade ago that helped to classify drugs on a variety of axes to understand how harmful they can be to one's self and others. I would highly suggest a read. There's plenty of knowledge in this realm and the fact that the most harmful drug is currently legal says a lot about what can be (and should be in my opinion) legalized.

          As a side note, MDMA is quite powerful and can damage your brain in the medium to long term if it is abused. As @TheMeerkat brought up, it's possible to mitigate this damage with antioxidizing supplements as well as strategies such as smaller doses and/or waiting longer between doses.

          Poor folk still gonna be poor and bad underfunded public education still gonna be bad and underfunded.

          Yes, these are other problems we should tackle as a society, but if we already know that legalization is correct and right it shouldn't dissuade us.

          7 votes
          1. arp242
            Link Parent
            It's probably a good idea to clarify what exactly we're talking about, since decriminalisation and legalisation are related but actually quite different, or at least how I use them. Here's how I...

            It's probably a good idea to clarify what exactly we're talking about, since decriminalisation and legalisation are related but actually quite different, or at least how I use them. Here's how I usually use these terms:

            • Decriminalisation of drug use is not arresting people merely for the act of using and/or possessing a small amount of drugs for personal use, but selling or producing drugs remains illegal. This is already common in quite a few parts of the world, and is something we have experience with and pretty much all evidence says this is a good idea as far as I know.

            • Legalisation of drugs is quite different, this is a situation where anyone can use, sell, or produce drugs, within government regulations, more or less similar to alcohol. I'm a lot more hesitant with this, for the reasons outlined above.


            Prohibition was a US thing – although it was also prohibited in Canada and Australia for a while, if memory serves – and not world-wide. The general comparison is apt, but I don't think it's all that relevant because the context is so different. I'm not so sure if the US legalizing cocaine out of the blue would have a good effect on countries like Mexico or Columbia. This would require some sort of coördination with those countries, but there are also other alternatives, such as ensuring it's sourced from the US. Either way, it's something that needs some careful consideration beforehand, and I'm worried this doesn't happen because I've never seen anyone talk about it in the context of legalisation (and never mind that Western countries in general don't exactly have a great track record on ensuring products we eat or use are sourced responsibly 😐).

            I think the opioid crisis is quite relevant in the context of legalisation. I mean, those drugs would be legal as well, right? How many people would use this to self-medicate? How many dubious online forums would advocate their use? I don't know the answer to that; I don't think anyone does. The best we can do is guess but those guesses may be wrong. Results will probably even differ per country, or even per US state.

            Like I mentioned, I think it would be wise to move very careful and slowly with legalisation lest we create a problem where many people will be stuck with addictions for years to come. I don't know if this will be a problem, maybe it won't be a problem at all; great! Or maybe we find that we'll need to adjust various aspects of the regulation surrounding drugs, pr it may even turn out that legalisation is worse than criminalisation (of trading and producing) in the amount of harm it produces. I don't think anyone can say for sure what the best way to legalize drugs would be, or how to legalize it exactly.

            4 votes
        2. [4]
          TheMeerkat
          Link Parent
          for the record, MDMA is not “completely” harmless; you need to supplement to prevent seratonin receptor damage.

          for the record, MDMA is not “completely” harmless; you need to supplement to prevent seratonin receptor damage.

          6 votes
          1. [3]
            arp242
            Link Parent
            I don't think I implied that it was? But it is comparatively harmless, compared to heroin, or even alcohol. Weed isn't harmless either, by the way. I know two people who've had serious...

            I don't think I implied that it was? But it is comparatively harmless, compared to heroin, or even alcohol. Weed isn't harmless either, by the way. I know two people who've had serious weed-induced psychosis.

            1 vote
            1. [2]
              cfabbro
              (edited )
              Link Parent
              Am former hardcore raver and former addict who has quite a bit of experience with MDMA (though ketamine, coke, and speed/meth were my drugs of choice), and in my opinion MDMA at typical...

              Am former hardcore raver and former addict who has quite a bit of experience with MDMA (though ketamine, coke, and speed/meth were my drugs of choice), and in my opinion MDMA at typical recreational doses is actually far more harmful and risky than alcohol, at least in the short-medium term. Even though MDMA makes you feel amazing while you're on it, the serotonin crash afterwards often leads to serious mental fatigue and bouts of depression that can last for weeks afterwards until your natural serotonin levels finally recover, which both get worse the longer you regularly use MDMA recreationally. And for people already suffering from depression or other mental illnesses, that can lead to some pretty dark places.

              Alcohol has more potential to harm you with long term use/abuse though.

              4 votes
              1. arp242
                Link Parent
                I don't really have much personal experience (and the experience with drugs I do have is mostly ... just boring), but AFAIK most studies show that MDMA is on the low end of "harm" when it comes to...

                I don't really have much personal experience (and the experience with drugs I do have is mostly ... just boring), but AFAIK most studies show that MDMA is on the low end of "harm" when it comes to drugs, well below alcohol, so that's what I'm going on.

                But to be clear: I don't think any drugs are completely safe, and there is probably a lot of individual variety in how people respond to them as well.

                1 vote
        3. [2]
          Don_Camillo
          Link Parent
          can you please expand on your statement how drug cartels would actually profit from decriminalisation/legislation? because that seems obvious on the surface but is not what i read what happend in...

          can you please expand on your statement how drug cartels would actually profit from decriminalisation/legislation? because that seems obvious on the surface but is not what i read what happend in other places that did it (or other times. e.g. end of prohibition)

          1 vote
          1. arp242
            Link Parent
            The problem is that production and trade of drugs is illegal pretty much everywhere, and that large amount of drugs currently being used in Western countries is produced in "narco states", leading...

            The problem is that production and trade of drugs is illegal pretty much everywhere, and that large amount of drugs currently being used in Western countries is produced in "narco states", leading to some pretty nasty things in those countries, to put it mildly (although this depends a bit on which drug, MDMA is mostly produced in the Netherlands for example, but it's also causing problems there).

            So where are we going to get our drugs from if we fully legalize drugs? From those same places where production and trade would remain illegal? This doesn't strike me as a good idea. This is different from prohibition, since the illegal alcohol was produced either in the US, or smuggled in from countries where the alcohol was legal.

            If many different countries would legalize drugs all at the same time, then sure, we can compare it to prohibition. But IMHO just the US or a European country legalizing it on its own is a little bit naïve.

            I hope that better explains where I'm coming from 😅

            2 votes
  2. JakeTheDog
    Link
    Regardless of the election results, this is a big win for humanity. FWIW posting this in ~health instead of ~news because it's more than just current events, it has everything to do with long-term...

    Regardless of the election results, this is a big win for humanity.
    FWIW posting this in ~health instead of ~news because it's more than just current events, it has everything to do with long-term health of people.

    7 votes
  3. [7]
    kyotja
    Link
    Mushrooms are... intense. I tried them for the first time this year, and while I definitely didn't have the best experience, it was an experience I was glad to have. I think this is one substance...

    Mushrooms are... intense. I tried them for the first time this year, and while I definitely didn't have the best experience, it was an experience I was glad to have. I think this is one substance that, like alcohol, can be harmful if entirely unregulated, but has a spot, with some regulations, in a healthy society. This is also an early and happy outcome from this election cycle, and I am glad to have some good news right now.

    6 votes
    1. [6]
      teaearlgraycold
      Link Parent
      Not sure exactly where Oregon is going with this, but I'd love to see easily accessible psilocybin therapy. Leave people no reason to venture into it on their own. Sign up for a trip on Saturday...

      Not sure exactly where Oregon is going with this, but I'd love to see easily accessible psilocybin therapy. Leave people no reason to venture into it on their own. Sign up for a trip on Saturday and get charged a co-pay.

      For anyone thinking of using shrooms my only advice is to ask yourself "where would I be mentally if I started to lose grasp on reality?"

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        k463b_92p
        Link Parent
        To aspiring users, I feel compelled to explicitly reiterate that it can be pretty dangerous to use psychedelics outside of a monitored, therapeutic context if you aren't already in a good mental...
        • Exemplary

        To aspiring users, I feel compelled to explicitly reiterate that it can be pretty dangerous to use psychedelics outside of a monitored, therapeutic context if you aren't already in a good mental place. That includes depression, anxiety, insecurity, stress, or general irritation. I think it's great that Oregon is legalizing psilocybin mushrooms for use in therapy sessions, but people shouldn't take this as an indication that they were "perfectly fine all along." They can still mess with you a lot. A trip changes you in a way that smoking doesn't.

        I had a good experience the first time I did mushrooms, but it was equal parts drug and mindset. My attitude was "I'm feeling good about myself, and I'm excited about this experience. I'm not anxious." Emphasis on the "not anxious" part. I had already talked through it all with our trip-sitter and was confident the day before. I woke up still feeling good and decided that I was going to be positive about whatever happened. That was only possible because I was not lying to myself, or hiding anything, or feeling insecure. I accepted that the mushrooms would play with my brain a little, and I would observe (and live) those changes for a few hours in a fun way. That's it. I would've been having fun that day regardless. I'm a very kinetic person, so when I ended up running, dancing, jumping, and touching everything, the drug had not "introduced" anything new so much as it heightened what I already felt to an extremely high degree. Fortunately, it's not like I ever had a problem "dealing with" being in a good mood. But I cannot say the same for negative mindsets.

        People can easily have a bad trip on an otherwise good day, but that will really just make it "unpleasant." If you have a bad trip on a bad day then it will be absolutely terrible, or terrifying, or both. So ultimately my suggestions would be to 1) make sure you're feeling very good day-of, 2) have an experienced trip-sitter keep an eye on you, 3) if doing it in a group, make sure you genuinely trust and like those people (a lot), and give yourselves and them space if needed. I recommend chocolate pudding. Just be safe about it.

        13 votes
        1. cfabbro
          (edited )
          Link Parent
          I absolutely love mushrooms, and have only ever had extremely positive experiences with them... but even so, your comment is still a very pertinent warning and full of sage advice IMO. Several of...

          I absolutely love mushrooms, and have only ever had extremely positive experiences with them... but even so, your comment is still a very pertinent warning and full of sage advice IMO. Several of my friends have had some really bad trips on them over the years, and in high school one even suffered a rather severe psychotic break while on them. He wound up totally freaking out in public, was subsequently arrested, and put on 72 hour psychiatric hold as a result... although to be fair, he had combined the shrooms with speed and a shit ton of booze too. So yeah, they are not to be taken lightly and should absolutely never be mixed with other drugs (even alcohol).

          And I also want to add to your already excellent advice by stating that, at least in my experience with them, the environment you do them in makes a huge difference on how the trip goes. All the bad trips I know of took place either in public, or at parties (Halloween parties are an especially bad place to trip!). Whereas all my trips were with a small group of close friends, either in the comfort of our own homes or back yards, or isolated in nature (cottage or camping), and have only ever resulted in incredibly positive experiences for all involved (at least so far, fingers crossed!).

          p.s. Much like THC edibles, they can take quite a while to kick in... so don't eat a bunch more 30 min later just because you haven't felt anything yet. Give them adequate time to kick in before doing that, or you could wind up seriously regretting it. The trip can last 5-6 hours after it starts, so there is really no harm in waiting a full hour (or more if you ate a bunch of food first since that will slow the process down) to feel it out first before making that decision.

          p.p.s. Shroom tea is definitely the best way to consume them IMO, since even though it tastes like shit it gets it over with quickly... but sprinkled on a peanut butter sandwich can also be tolerable in a pinch. ;) Just forewarning: You might vomit no matter how you consume them though, since the initial wave of nausea it causes once they start digesting can sometimes be pretty overwhelming, so be prepared for that.

          7 votes
        2. teaearlgraycold
          Link Parent
          Also if you're still relatively present but having a bad trip, a hot shower works well to reset your state. I've used one before on a stressful (but by no means terrifying) LSD trip. That plus a...

          Also if you're still relatively present but having a bad trip, a hot shower works well to reset your state. I've used one before on a stressful (but by no means terrifying) LSD trip. That plus a setting change worked wonders.

          4 votes
      2. [2]
        MimicSquid
        Link Parent
        My wife was deeply upset by the fact that our walls were flat white without much art. It's been fixed since then.

        My wife was deeply upset by the fact that our walls were flat white without much art. It's been fixed since then.

        6 votes
        1. teaearlgraycold
          Link Parent
          It can definitely bring front-and-center things your brain has long since filtered out.

          It can definitely bring front-and-center things your brain has long since filtered out.

          3 votes
  4. Erik
    Link
    D.C. also approved psilocybin: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/dc-magic-mushrooms-result/2020/11/03/bb929e86-1abc-11eb-bb35-2dcfdab0a345_story.html Will be interesting to see if...

    D.C. also approved psilocybin: https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/dc-politics/dc-magic-mushrooms-result/2020/11/03/bb929e86-1abc-11eb-bb35-2dcfdab0a345_story.html

    Will be interesting to see if this stands as it was done as a ballot initiative and not passing a law. The mayor voted against it personally, but we'll see if she marshals an attempt to overturn this ballot initiative similar to how the district overturned an initiative to abolish the tipped minimum wage.

    5 votes