27 votes

How to escape from the Iron Age? We cannot lower carbon emissions if we keep producing steel with fossil fuels.

14 comments

  1. [10]
    Promonk
    Link
    Save you the read: we don't. The best they come up with is recycling old steel with electric arc furnaces and reducing usage. Developing countries are going to rightly ignore wealthy nations when...

    Save you the read: we don't. The best they come up with is recycling old steel with electric arc furnaces and reducing usage.

    Developing countries are going to rightly ignore wealthy nations when we say that steel production needs to be severely limited. They'll see it as pulling the ladder up after ourselves, and there's just the teensiest bit of truth to it.

    29 votes
    1. [7]
      scroll_lock
      Link Parent
      Comment box Scope: opinion Tone: neutral, NOT cynical Opinion: yes Sarcasm/humor: none I think this take is far too cynical. We can absolutely reduce carbon emissions in industry. Zero emissions...
      • Exemplary
      Comment box
      • Scope: opinion
      • Tone: neutral, NOT cynical
      • Opinion: yes
      • Sarcasm/humor: none

      I think this take is far too cynical. We can absolutely reduce carbon emissions in industry. Zero emissions is a particularly difficult point to reach in a short period of time, but it's not all-or-nothing. Giving up, or implying that it's impossible for us to make progress in this sector, is not correct or useful. It actually encourages a sense of doomism and nihilism which is exactly counter to the attitude we need to carry as activists.

      I just shared a press release from the US government about $6 billion in investments into low-carbon industry processes, $1.5 billion of which includes investments into the steel industry specifically. The government anticipates that these investments will result in a 77% reduction in emissions (on average). Direct Reduction of Iron (DRI) can theoretically reduce emissions by 95% relative to coke-based reducing methods.

      You can read about the specifics from the Department of Energy's document: Industrial Demonstrations Program Selections for Award Negotiations: Iron and Steel. They're funding five projects, each of which have significant matching funds from other government and industry sources:

      • Hydrogen-Fueled Zero Emissions Steel Making
      • Hydrogen-Ready Direct Reduced Iron Plant and Electric Melting Furnace Installation
      • Induction Melting Upgrade
      • Iron Electric Induction Conversion
      • Low-Emissions, Cold-Agglomerated Iron Ore Briquette Production

      But there is a lot more happening than just this. Government is also funding significant research into cleaner ways to produce process heat, which is useful for various parts of materials production, whether or not coke is involved. People may not be aware of it, but advanced industrial heat pumps can actually reach pretty high temperatures, as much as 300°F or more (and the technology is still advancing). This isn't solving the problem of reaching 1500°F in a traditional blast furnace, but it can significantly reduce emissions from adjacent processes.

      The article seems to hold hydrogen in disdain because the production of hydrogen also requires some steel. But you don't need to stop using steel altogether in order to reduce emissions to a reasonable level, and the author is taking a very "loosey-goosey" approach to resource use, not considering lifetime capabilities of various solutions. Additionally, given how much research is ongoing in this field, I feel it is foolish to assume that the current efficiency of hydrogen production is somehow the maximum efficiency. It most likely isn't!

      Consequently, hydrogen-based steelmaking requires roughly ten times more wind turbines and solar panels than scrap-based steel production – and thus ten times more steel. On top of this comes the steel for building the pipelines and storage tanks that are part of the hydrogen infrastructure.

      Something like a solar panel has a lifespan of 25 years. While it does indeed contain steel, if a solar farm can provide electricity for 25 years worth of hydrogen-based steel production, then the "cost" (in steel) of that energy source is outweighed by the benefit it provides. One unit of steel in a solar panel produces energy which can produce far more steel over its lifespan than was originally used to create the panel. Similarly, just because hydrogen tanks are made of steel does not mean every unit of hydrogen requires a completely new tank; such an assumption as the author makes is foolish and not mathematical.

      I agree with the author's takeaway that reducing material use overall is the best thing we can do as far as the physical conservation and renewability of resources goes, but we are not at a dead end otherwise. I am very much not in the camp of "technology solves all problems," but in this case, forays into green industrial processes are a largely unexplored field with an enormous amount of potential. It is better for us to take those investigations seriously rather than settling on an answer of "welp, we're screwed."

      21 votes
      1. [6]
        Promonk
        Link Parent
        I don't believe I said any such thing. What I did say was that this article doesn't offer any plausible courses of action aside from recycling steel already in circulation and reducing production...

        It is better for us to take those investigations seriously rather than settling on an answer of "welp, we're screwed."

        I don't believe I said any such thing. What I did say was that this article doesn't offer any plausible courses of action aside from recycling steel already in circulation and reducing production of new steel, which together are woefully insufficient. Even more so considering the rising demand from developing nations, who are likely to look unfavorably on the throttling of extraction and production it would take to reach sustainability.

        This article does a pretty good job of laying out the problem, but offers next to nothing practicable by way of a solution. It's probably good to acknowledge that.

        6 votes
        1. [5]
          scroll_lock
          Link Parent
          Comment box Scope: comment response Tone: neutral Opinion: none Sarcasm/humor: none Then I misinterpreted "Save you the read: we don't" as meaning "I don't believe there is a solution." It sounded...
          Comment box
          • Scope: comment response
          • Tone: neutral
          • Opinion: none
          • Sarcasm/humor: none

          Then I misinterpreted "Save you the read: we don't" as meaning "I don't believe there is a solution." It sounded quite definitive to me. But I agree with your assessment.

          4 votes
          1. [3]
            Promonk
            Link Parent
            No, I definitely think there is a solution, but I also think we really won't like it. I think the only way we can avoid major climate catastrophe is by radically changing the way our global...

            No, I definitely think there is a solution, but I also think we really won't like it. I think the only way we can avoid major climate catastrophe is by radically changing the way our global society functions on a fundamental level.

            Not only do we not currently possess the industrial technology to overcome the hurdles in steel production we currently have, we likewise don't currently possess the social technology we'd need to really definitively address anthropogenic climate change.

            4 votes
            1. [2]
              Grayscail
              Link Parent
              Can you elaborate a bit more about what you mean by "radically changing the way our global society functions on a fundamental level"? It sounded like in your initial comment you thought that it...

              Can you elaborate a bit more about what you mean by "radically changing the way our global society functions on a fundamental level"?

              It sounded like in your initial comment you thought that it was infeasible for developed nations to try and dictate big choices like reducing production.

              But radically changing the way our civilization functions sounds like a significantly bigger ask, doesn't it?

              1 vote
              1. Promonk
                Link Parent
                That's why I said "we really won't like it." Liberals (in the textbook sense) won't like it because it'll require strict control of markets. Developing nations won't like it because they won't be...

                That's why I said "we really won't like it." Liberals (in the textbook sense) won't like it because it'll require strict control of markets. Developing nations won't like it because they won't be able to expand their economies (read: ruthlessly exploit) at anything like the rate other nations got to enjoy. Developed nations won't be happy because we'll have to forgo many of the advantages we've enjoyed for centuries, and especially in the last century or so, including many conveniences that we've become so accustomed to that we consider them necessities.

                The biggest problem of it all is what I alluded to when I mentioned lacking the "social technology" to make it work: we have to somehow find a way to put strict limits on exploitation of natural and human resources in a way that does not benefit one group of humans above others, or above the world as a whole, because I strongly suspect that any solution that gives advantage to one class, or nation, or creed or whatever will never be sustainable long-term.

                In short, I have a hunch that what's needed is a kind of authoritarianism that doesn't yet exist, and that most likely none of us here–myself included–could abide even if it did.

          2. stu2b50
            Link Parent
            Not OP, but "save you the read" reads to me as summarizing, or pulling information, out of the article. Which indeed does not have any solutions. The article basically presents a problem then...

            Not OP, but "save you the read" reads to me as summarizing, or pulling information, out of the article. Which indeed does not have any solutions. The article basically presents a problem then offers no actual solutions.

    2. Minty
      Link Parent
      We can also improve the development process for new steel types, which is currently extremely long and energy-consuming. It's something.

      We can also improve the development process for new steel types, which is currently extremely long and energy-consuming. It's something.

      4 votes
    3. UP8
      Link Parent
      There are many paths to carbon-free steel. People have proposed reducing steel with hydrogen or building blast furnaces that recycle CO2, not to mention electrochemical processes like the way we...

      There are many paths to carbon-free steel. People have proposed reducing steel with hydrogen or building blast furnaces that recycle CO2, not to mention electrochemical processes like the way we produce aluminum.

  2. [4]
    X08
    Link
    If it's heat we need to produce it, one might look towards the heating it with high-energy wavelengths. I'm not a scientist but it felt better than just saying "lasers lol".

    If it's heat we need to produce it, one might look towards the heating it with high-energy wavelengths. I'm not a scientist but it felt better than just saying "lasers lol".

    1. Minori
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      That's kinda what an arc furnace is. It helps, but it doesn't remove all the emissions. Edit: link

      That's kinda what an arc furnace is. It helps, but it doesn't remove all the emissions.

      Edit: link

      6 votes
    2. Minty
      Link Parent
      Pro-tip: magnets are always a suspiciously relevant answer to such questions. In this case, magnetic induction furnaces, pure electric, can be powered by renewables or nuclear.

      Pro-tip: magnets are always a suspiciously relevant answer to such questions.

      In this case, magnetic induction furnaces, pure electric, can be powered by renewables or nuclear.

      5 votes
    3. Grayscail
      Link Parent
      The issue here is that there's more than heat required. Electric arcs can already get plenty hot. Steel is mostly iron, so when you make it you want somewhat pure iron and then you add other...

      The issue here is that there's more than heat required. Electric arcs can already get plenty hot.

      Steel is mostly iron, so when you make it you want somewhat pure iron and then you add other elements to change the properties of the metal. When you find iron ore out in the wild, it's got a lot of iron oxide, which contains oxygen. You need to remove the oxygen to get closer to pure iron.

      If you are working with recycled steel that's already the right composition, then just using high heat with an arc or a laser or magnetic induction are all fine options. If making new steel it's a problem.

      In a blast furnace, this is done by burning coal. Coal releases CO2, but also CO, carbon monoxide. The carbon monoxide is less stable than dioxide, so when it gets the chance it will steal oxygen from the iron ore, which just leaves behind iron.

      So this is a chemical reaction happening. You need a reducing agent to pull off the oxygen. Pure hydrogen is an option to do this, since hydrogen likes to bond with oxygen to make water. One option then would be to make hydrogen gas and use that to make steel instead of coal. This is Direct Reduced Iron production.

      5 votes