I don't personally see this framing as an example of the 'crisis in masculinity', or as an example of the undercurrent of anti-intellectualism pervasive in the US, as useful framing. The more I...
I don't personally see this framing as an example of the 'crisis in masculinity', or as an example of the undercurrent of anti-intellectualism pervasive in the US, as useful framing. The more I think about it, the more I find it kind of offensive, actually, as if the ever-increasing achievement gaps rest solely at the feet of the underperforming.
Look at the pervasive removal of all forms of classes other than the sit-and-stare-at-a-chalkboard type. This is much harder for some people to do than others. When I was in school, I thankfully had auto shop, machine metals, ceramics, sports, music... Lots of things throughout the day that let me work with my hands, move physically, do anything other than sit still and stare. I don't think I realized at the time how much I needed that, and how much harder schoolwork would have been without those kinds of outlets.
When I talk to younger folks in my extended family, I see so much more frustration in the young, heterosexual men than anyone else, and a lot of it (IMO) is due to this- they are being asked to conform to an an environment that has become increasingly hostile, or at best indifferent to their nature, and we are seeing the long-term results in academic (lack of) achievement. And while I do think the lack of more physical interactions does hit young men the hardest, it's a loss for everyone. We need multi-modal instruction and education.
I get this, as an ADHD girl, PE was necessary to me too. Girls are much more socialized such that we are more likely to follow the rules in school. Being a "bad girl" also brings immediate social...
I get this, as an ADHD girl, PE was necessary to me too. Girls are much more socialized such that we are more likely to follow the rules in school. Being a "bad girl" also brings immediate social punishment. I'm not convinced we're naturally more comfortable with that rule following vs being trained to that end.
But I don't think this puts the blame on the boys in question either. They're being actively discouraged by these rigid gender roles, something they're not responsible for imposing in the first place (and not to blame for perpetuating as they're unaware and children), from being successful in school from jump. Pivoting back away from our perpetual testing and thus teaching only to that test model is larger conversation and could be a partial potential solution too.
And once kids are in school (or day care) parents lose some control over that socialization and it sort of seems to migrate to the mean - which is why you get the boys/girls are gross/dumb in the typical age for kids even if that isn't the case before that.
Thanks for the excellent responses! Just adding on from high school memories triggered by these posts: A lot of my intellectual development came from discussing things we learned in History or...
Thanks for the excellent responses!
Just adding on from high school memories triggered by these posts: A lot of my intellectual development came from discussing things we learned in History or Literature classes... in between rounds while swatting a tennis ball back and forth. Or while hiking on a Yosemite Club outing. Or while working with a couple other guys wrestling an engine back in to an engine bay. Something about having an activity with a focal point allowed our minds to be calmer, so that we could get in to the meat of things that other kids covered during the classes themselves.
Not everyone in these classes cared about this, of course. But a lot did, but couldn't stay focused enough to get the words out while sitting. The Yosemite Club in particular was a 50/50 split of girls and boys, and for many of the unknown-at-the-time ADHD girls, it was where they blossomed and were able to engage in these types of conversations as well. I'll always be thankful for those experiences.
We definitely had none of those experiences. I was at a small Catholic school from K-8 and a small Catholic High School from K-12. And there was neither shop nor "home Ec". I had to test out of...
We definitely had none of those experiences. I was at a small Catholic school from K-8 and a small Catholic High School from K-12.
And there was neither shop nor "home Ec". I had to test out of the "how to write a check and do taxes" class (which we absolutely did have) to fit double math in my sophomore year so I could do AP classes as a senior. I had a super misogynistic conditioning class teacher (weight lifting for PE, because only freshmen had to do regular PE so no one else did ) and yeah. Thankfully my particular hyperfocus worked out by being given challenges (working ahead, grading other kids' work,) or just being allowed to read a book for pleasure when I was done with my homework in class. Academics weren't hard. So none of this made me popular either, it felt very similar to how gay boys are describing being successful. I look back at my social skills in despair (and once again question if I'm autistic as well but I dont think so). I was the "well behaved girl" but only at the fringes of acceptability. I played basketball and football with the boys on the asphalt playground in Jr High rather than sit with the girls, even when we had to wear skirts.
I'd have been happier learning how to fix things too but yeah.
I know we fuck up the kids, I don't know the answers of fixing it. "Pedagogy" is out of my knowledge range.
That sounds rough, and I'm sorry you didn't have similar experiences. FWIW, speaking of time frame, I was in high school from 1988-1992. By ~1996, every single one of the classes I mentioned had...
That sounds rough, and I'm sorry you didn't have similar experiences.
FWIW, speaking of time frame, I was in high school from 1988-1992. By ~1996, every single one of the classes I mentioned had been cancelled, and AFAIK, none have been reinstated to this day, to the detriment of everyone, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm about a decade past you, but the public schools had more options than we did, so I don't know how much changed there and when. But if my HS had shop and home ec it was multiple decades...
I'm about a decade past you, but the public schools had more options than we did, so I don't know how much changed there and when. But if my HS had shop and home ec it was multiple decades earlier. Before some previous remodel at least.
Completely anecdotal, but my boys have better behavior in school when they bike or walk to school versus being driven. I really wish I could get behavior information from the schools and cross...
Completely anecdotal, but my boys have better behavior in school when they bike or walk to school versus being driven. I really wish I could get behavior information from the schools and cross reference that with mode of school transportation to see if that is a larger trend.
I'd believe it. I don't think it's a coincidence that the school year that I remember as being better than most was also the year I had a ~2 mile walk each direction to get there, although neither...
I'd believe it. I don't think it's a coincidence that the school year that I remember as being better than most was also the year I had a ~2 mile walk each direction to get there, although neither I nor my parents made the connection at the time.
Author's angle is that if masculinity is bad for academic performance, then being alienated from masculinity is an academic advantage: How gay men's educational attainment rates compare: Parallel...
Author's angle is that if masculinity is bad for academic performance, then being alienated from masculinity is an academic advantage:
Analyzing about 7,000 student survey items, my research identified the attributes most predictive of being a boy. They were things such as time spent playing video games and expectations of becoming a professional athlete. Classroom striving was not among them. Gay boys, however, answered very differently from straight boys. For these students, stepping outside the strictures of straight masculinity significantly supported academic success.
If masculinity’s expectations were the only barrier to success, however, gay men should perform roughly as well as straight women. Yet gay men outperform them, too, because gay men don’t just live outside traditional masculinity; they often work particularly hard to compensate for not meeting those masculine expectations — work that can lead to a measurable boost.
How gay men's educational attainment rates compare:
52 percent of gay men age 25 or older in the United States have a bachelor’s degree. For context, about 36 percent of U.S. adults 25 or older have a bachelor’s; this ranks the United States ninth in the world in college completion. If America’s gay men, however, formed their own country, it would be the world’s most highly educated by far.
Compared with straight men, gay men are about 50 percent more likely to have earned an MD, JD or PhD.
And this pattern isn’t confined to White gay men. In every single racial and ethnic group I could measure, gay men outpace straight men in college completion by double digits.
This piece starts out with research results, but then, when comparing to straight women, moves toward speculation. And while I don't disagree with that speculation—it's actually something I can...
This piece starts out with research results, but then, when comparing to straight women, moves toward speculation.
And while I don't disagree with that speculation—it's actually something I can relate to in a way—another possible factor in the comparative academic success of gay men and straight women could be that there are two separate sets of expectations involved: the cultural pressure of too much interest in intellectual work as being seen as outside of traditional masculinity, and misogynist views of women as being intellectually inferior. While boys are pressured, particularly by their peers, not to apply themselves too much or be too interested in academics, girls are pressured, particularly by teachers and parents, to see topics and academic achievements past certain levels as beyond them, or are kept from classes and experiences that would have given them a chance to become inspired or apply themselves. Gay male students, while facing different challenges in school, perhaps manage to fit in between these two, having the opportunities and encouragement often denied to female students, while escaping the pressures of traditional masculinity that make it harder for straight male students to take advantage of those opportunities.
Just some other bits that spoke to me as someone that grew up on the female side of that artificial binary. This makes so much sense to me based on my experiences as well. The patriarchy is...
From a gender perspective, however, men’s academic stagnation is directly in line with the broader rigidity observed among men over the past half century. The “gender revolution” was asymmetric:... More fundamentally, femininity expanded to allow certain activities and attributes historically restricted to men, but masculinity has remained stubbornly narrow and anxiously focused on repudiating effeminacy.
In this tradition, a central component of female students’ success in the classroom lies in their adhering to the “good girl” role. This requires, at a minimum, being modestly feminine in dress, soft-spoken in speech, and deferential in behavior. More recent research underscores the raced and classed dimensions of the “good girl” role, clarifying the extent to which these expectations reflect White, middle-class standards of femininity
...
Just as the specter of effeminacy polices the borders of masculinity among boys, the “bad girl” penalty punishes girls who stray too far from the constraints imposed by femininity. Pascoe’s (2007:115, 154) research illustrates this fact: of all the teenage girls who “dressed, talked and carried themselves in many ways ‘like guys’ . . . none were strangers to the disciplinary system.”
Just some other bits that spoke to me as someone that grew up on the female side of that artificial binary.
This makes so much sense to me based on my experiences as well. The patriarchy is constraining straight boys into the categories of masculinity, where gay boys have, like straight girls, found success within the academic system. Since neither can get access to the "majority", focusing on academics is the "win." But because the gender expectations are even more rigid for young boys, and the harassment for not conforming is to literally be called "gay", gay boys have more pressure on them to find an avenue of approval and success. "Smart Kid" is an acceptable archetype. It's an out even if you get harassed more by your peers. (And you may find acceptance with the girls or in smaller queer groups)
The increase in queer men graduating high school and excelling happened as the acceptance of their sexuality was growing. I worry that we'll see it slide with the current morass of anti-queer messages.
I also appreciated seeing the impact of discrimination on bisexual men and women alike. I mean I don't like it but bi (and other multi sexual identity) folks traditionally have higher suicide rates than monosexual folks including among teens. And discrimination and erasure is a huge part of that. Men often get perceived as gay, women get perceived as straight.
I don't think I can read all the results right now but this was very interesting.
I don't personally see this framing as an example of the 'crisis in masculinity', or as an example of the undercurrent of anti-intellectualism pervasive in the US, as useful framing. The more I think about it, the more I find it kind of offensive, actually, as if the ever-increasing achievement gaps rest solely at the feet of the underperforming.
Look at the pervasive removal of all forms of classes other than the sit-and-stare-at-a-chalkboard type. This is much harder for some people to do than others. When I was in school, I thankfully had auto shop, machine metals, ceramics, sports, music... Lots of things throughout the day that let me work with my hands, move physically, do anything other than sit still and stare. I don't think I realized at the time how much I needed that, and how much harder schoolwork would have been without those kinds of outlets.
When I talk to younger folks in my extended family, I see so much more frustration in the young, heterosexual men than anyone else, and a lot of it (IMO) is due to this- they are being asked to conform to an an environment that has become increasingly hostile, or at best indifferent to their nature, and we are seeing the long-term results in academic (lack of) achievement. And while I do think the lack of more physical interactions does hit young men the hardest, it's a loss for everyone. We need multi-modal instruction and education.
I get this, as an ADHD girl, PE was necessary to me too. Girls are much more socialized such that we are more likely to follow the rules in school. Being a "bad girl" also brings immediate social punishment. I'm not convinced we're naturally more comfortable with that rule following vs being trained to that end.
But I don't think this puts the blame on the boys in question either. They're being actively discouraged by these rigid gender roles, something they're not responsible for imposing in the first place (and not to blame for perpetuating as they're unaware and children), from being successful in school from jump. Pivoting back away from our perpetual testing and thus teaching only to that test model is larger conversation and could be a partial potential solution too.
And once kids are in school (or day care) parents lose some control over that socialization and it sort of seems to migrate to the mean - which is why you get the boys/girls are gross/dumb in the typical age for kids even if that isn't the case before that.
Thanks for the excellent responses!
Just adding on from high school memories triggered by these posts: A lot of my intellectual development came from discussing things we learned in History or Literature classes... in between rounds while swatting a tennis ball back and forth. Or while hiking on a Yosemite Club outing. Or while working with a couple other guys wrestling an engine back in to an engine bay. Something about having an activity with a focal point allowed our minds to be calmer, so that we could get in to the meat of things that other kids covered during the classes themselves.
Not everyone in these classes cared about this, of course. But a lot did, but couldn't stay focused enough to get the words out while sitting. The Yosemite Club in particular was a 50/50 split of girls and boys, and for many of the unknown-at-the-time ADHD girls, it was where they blossomed and were able to engage in these types of conversations as well. I'll always be thankful for those experiences.
We definitely had none of those experiences. I was at a small Catholic school from K-8 and a small Catholic High School from K-12.
And there was neither shop nor "home Ec". I had to test out of the "how to write a check and do taxes" class (which we absolutely did have) to fit double math in my sophomore year so I could do AP classes as a senior. I had a super misogynistic conditioning class teacher (weight lifting for PE, because only freshmen had to do regular PE so no one else did ) and yeah. Thankfully my particular hyperfocus worked out by being given challenges (working ahead, grading other kids' work,) or just being allowed to read a book for pleasure when I was done with my homework in class. Academics weren't hard. So none of this made me popular either, it felt very similar to how gay boys are describing being successful. I look back at my social skills in despair (and once again question if I'm autistic as well but I dont think so). I was the "well behaved girl" but only at the fringes of acceptability. I played basketball and football with the boys on the asphalt playground in Jr High rather than sit with the girls, even when we had to wear skirts.
I'd have been happier learning how to fix things too but yeah.
I know we fuck up the kids, I don't know the answers of fixing it. "Pedagogy" is out of my knowledge range.
That sounds rough, and I'm sorry you didn't have similar experiences.
FWIW, speaking of time frame, I was in high school from 1988-1992. By ~1996, every single one of the classes I mentioned had been cancelled, and AFAIK, none have been reinstated to this day, to the detriment of everyone, as far as I'm concerned.
I'm about a decade past you, but the public schools had more options than we did, so I don't know how much changed there and when. But if my HS had shop and home ec it was multiple decades earlier. Before some previous remodel at least.
Completely anecdotal, but my boys have better behavior in school when they bike or walk to school versus being driven. I really wish I could get behavior information from the schools and cross reference that with mode of school transportation to see if that is a larger trend.
I'd believe it. I don't think it's a coincidence that the school year that I remember as being better than most was also the year I had a ~2 mile walk each direction to get there, although neither I nor my parents made the connection at the time.
Author's angle is that if masculinity is bad for academic performance, then being alienated from masculinity is an academic advantage:
How gay men's educational attainment rates compare:
Parallel Reddit thread where I originally came across this.
This piece starts out with research results, but then, when comparing to straight women, moves toward speculation.
And while I don't disagree with that speculation—it's actually something I can relate to in a way—another possible factor in the comparative academic success of gay men and straight women could be that there are two separate sets of expectations involved: the cultural pressure of too much interest in intellectual work as being seen as outside of traditional masculinity, and misogynist views of women as being intellectually inferior. While boys are pressured, particularly by their peers, not to apply themselves too much or be too interested in academics, girls are pressured, particularly by teachers and parents, to see topics and academic achievements past certain levels as beyond them, or are kept from classes and experiences that would have given them a chance to become inspired or apply themselves. Gay male students, while facing different challenges in school, perhaps manage to fit in between these two, having the opportunities and encouragement often denied to female students, while escaping the pressures of traditional masculinity that make it harder for straight male students to take advantage of those opportunities.
Just some other bits that spoke to me as someone that grew up on the female side of that artificial binary.
This makes so much sense to me based on my experiences as well. The patriarchy is constraining straight boys into the categories of masculinity, where gay boys have, like straight girls, found success within the academic system. Since neither can get access to the "majority", focusing on academics is the "win." But because the gender expectations are even more rigid for young boys, and the harassment for not conforming is to literally be called "gay", gay boys have more pressure on them to find an avenue of approval and success. "Smart Kid" is an acceptable archetype. It's an out even if you get harassed more by your peers. (And you may find acceptance with the girls or in smaller queer groups)
The increase in queer men graduating high school and excelling happened as the acceptance of their sexuality was growing. I worry that we'll see it slide with the current morass of anti-queer messages.
I also appreciated seeing the impact of discrimination on bisexual men and women alike. I mean I don't like it but bi (and other multi sexual identity) folks traditionally have higher suicide rates than monosexual folks including among teens. And discrimination and erasure is a huge part of that. Men often get perceived as gay, women get perceived as straight.
I don't think I can read all the results right now but this was very interesting.
The great myth that sex must be about a penis.
Eh, penises are optional all of them. I perceive it more as only relationships with men are considered valid.
Either way, erasure sucks.
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