This is a really cool look at the data! I took the gender census survey for the first time this year, and from these responses it seems like I'm very much a normie within the nonbinary community....
This is a really cool look at the data! I took the gender census survey for the first time this year, and from these responses it seems like I'm very much a normie within the nonbinary community. Sad about bigender being removed from the checkboxes for next year, since it was encouraging to see it as an explicit option, but I guess I'll have to write it in next time.
I also encourage the (overwhelmingly not nonbinary) Tildes commenters who insist they'll never use it/its for someone in previous conversations on this website to look at the pronouns statistics in detail. About 20% of respondents (closer to 25% among those under age 30!) include it/its among their preferred pronouns. More than 10% of respondents don't want people using they, he, or she. Consider that nonbinary people who make these choices about their preferred pronouns are probably aware of whatever objections you have to them, and that your perspective is necessarily limited.
As someone uses these pronouns, very few people actually use them when referring to me. The resistance to these pronouns is surprisingly strong, even among queers.
I also encourage the (overwhelmingly not nonbinary) Tildes commenters who insist they'll never use it/its for someone in previous conversations on this website to look at the pronouns statistics in detail.
As someone uses these pronouns, very few people actually use them when referring to me. The resistance to these pronouns is surprisingly strong, even among queers.
I think a lot of the resistance is from the aging gays (aka me). I’m old enough to remember getting called “it” by people who wanted to dehumanize me for being a lesbian. It might have been you (I...
I think a lot of the resistance is from the aging gays (aka me).
I’m old enough to remember getting called “it” by people who wanted to dehumanize me for being a lesbian. It might have been you (I remember it was someone on tildes) who produced a compelling argument that made me significantly less uncomfortable about people identifying as those pronouns, as I used to be vehemently against it.
I still don’t feel comfortable adding it/it’s to my vernacular quite yet…Internally it feels similar to calling someone a faggot in conversation, even if the context wasn’t as a slur. I probably would comply if it/it’s were the only pronouns that someone identified with out of respect, though. But I would be lying if I denied having this strange internal battle every time.
Edit: Shoot, I read your comment below before I wrote this post, but it didn’t click in my brain until after I reread it again after I spoke. You’re well aware of how folks like me feel and once again you have such compelling points that I feel like I just need to take a seat and reevaluate my own feelings. I really appreciate the patience you have for speaking on this topic.
Thanks for sharing your struggle. I too have had folks use it in a similar fashion on me, as well as faggot and other slurs. I know how it feels and I have a ton of compassion for folks like you....
Thanks for sharing your struggle. I too have had folks use it in a similar fashion on me, as well as faggot and other slurs. I know how it feels and I have a ton of compassion for folks like you. Of everyone out there in the world, people like you and my partner have the most justification for discomfort with using it/its. I'm touched that you feel you need to reevaluate your own feelings, that means a lot to me and many others out there. Thank you.
It's definitely something I've had to work through my discomfort with. But I don't know anyone IRL that uses it/its that they've shared with me. (I've been introduced to a few folks but not anyone...
It's definitely something I've had to work through my discomfort with. But I don't know anyone IRL that uses it/its that they've shared with me. (I've been introduced to a few folks but not anyone that I've continued to see/interact with) So I don't have the out loud verbal practice yet.
Yup, it's a personal journey for many. I have a partner who has an extreme discomfort with the word, but she's also experienced a lot of harassment and discrimination over the years. I don't...
Yup, it's a personal journey for many. I have a partner who has an extreme discomfort with the word, but she's also experienced a lot of harassment and discrimination over the years. I don't expect things to change anytime soon, if ever with her, and it doesn't bother me that she doesn't use those pronouns because I know her struggles. I don't think there's an easy one-size-fits-all solution to this. Some people will always be uncomfortable with using it/its, but I think we should all assess where that discomfort comes from and if we have loved ones or just want to be more welcoming in general to work towards dismantling that discomfort wherever possible. We should have compassion for those who struggle with or cannot dismantle that discomfort when it comes from a place of personal trauma, but I also think we shouldn't let people rest on the laurels of discomfort when it comes to how they perceive the word when it's never been wielded against them or their loved ones. To be clear- I don't think we should be playing oppression Olympics here and we should give people a large amount of space to navigate this personally, but we should be realistic about assessing the needs of the individuals involved and attempting to minimize net harm. Chances are in most situations the person requesting it/its pronouns to be used on it are either more marginalized overall or at the very least more marginalized with respect to it's identity than the person who feels uncomfortable using it/its pronouns in conversation with it.
Agreed! and your input as someone that uses those pronouns is much appreciated. I do wish there was an easier way to indicate pronouns for Tildes users so I would not worry about retaining this...
Agreed! and your input as someone that uses those pronouns is much appreciated. I do wish there was an easier way to indicate pronouns for Tildes users so I would not worry about retaining this information in the future. But then also most of the time we're not referring to our fellow posters in the third person especially by pronouns rather than usernames, and at the least Tildes usually defaults to "they" in my experience rather than assuming everyone is a (cis) man on the internet
They is also a pronoun I use, and in general pronouns aren't a huge thing for me. The ability to edit display name to include pronouns I think would be a nice inclusive feature for Tildes. I think...
They is also a pronoun I use, and in general pronouns aren't a huge thing for me. The ability to edit display name to include pronouns I think would be a nice inclusive feature for Tildes. I think having them in bio isn't terrible but I'm also the kind of person who will just they nearly everyone (I have been doing this my whole life for some strange reason 😉) and also often will check someone's profile to see their pronouns when I wish to address them in 3rd person.
I do think having visible pronouns as even an optional feature would be really great. It's something that's already a thing in other places (Zoom has an option to display pronouns next to names...
I do think having visible pronouns as even an optional feature would be really great. It's something that's already a thing in other places (Zoom has an option to display pronouns next to names and Discord has them prominently next to the username if you right-click/longpress a display name to see someone's profile), so it wouldn't even be wildly progressive. If anything, it would make it easier to filter out a certain flavor of bad actor who would flip out just seeing that Tildes "has pronouns"
I have not been lucky in looking at profiles for pronouns, in that they're not showing, or the profiles don't show correctly in 3 Cheers, I'll have to look later
I have not been lucky in looking at profiles for pronouns, in that they're not showing, or the profiles don't show correctly in 3 Cheers, I'll have to look later
Yeah, I'll admit even I struggle with some discomfort using it/its, and since my wife uses them it's something I've had to work through fast! So I'm empathetic when people say they make them...
Yeah, I'll admit even I struggle with some discomfort using it/its, and since my wife uses them it's something I've had to work through fast! So I'm empathetic when people say they make them uncomfortable, but it's the kind of discomfort we need to learn to push through out of respect for others.
I recently said that our residence hall LGBTQ+ community teaches me new pronouns every time I visit students there. And they do! I want to scan through this more for some data for trainings later
I recently said that our residence hall LGBTQ+ community teaches me new pronouns every time I visit students there. And they do!
I want to scan through this more for some data for trainings later
I find myself wishing that English had better ungendered polite/formal modes of address. Mr./Ms./Mx don't work that well for me since the antecedents are Latin-derived English class signifiers -...
I find myself wishing that English had better ungendered polite/formal modes of address. Mr./Ms./Mx don't work that well for me since the antecedents are Latin-derived English class signifiers - "Master" and "Mistress".
I like "Per", from Marge Piercy's novel Woman on the Edge of Time (Warning: spoilers), which also had the first literary use of "ze". It's one of those gender neutral honorifics/pronouns that goes in and out of style due to lack of uniformly agreed-upon adoption.
I don't think having them not be Latin-derived would help much -- in Germany the equivalent for "Mrs/Ms/Miss" is literally just the word for "woman", which is even more gender-laden imo. I don't...
I don't think having them not be Latin-derived would help much -- in Germany the equivalent for "Mrs/Ms/Miss" is literally just the word for "woman", which is even more gender-laden imo.
I don't hate Mx. as an option just bc it's explicitly non-binary, and I wish there were something even close to that here in Germany. But ultimately I think coining new honorifics like this is hard because it's a part of language and culture that's quite old-fashioned and slow to adapt already.
This is a really cool look at the data! I took the gender census survey for the first time this year, and from these responses it seems like I'm very much a normie within the nonbinary community. Sad about bigender being removed from the checkboxes for next year, since it was encouraging to see it as an explicit option, but I guess I'll have to write it in next time.
I also encourage the (overwhelmingly not nonbinary) Tildes commenters who insist they'll never use it/its for someone in previous conversations on this website to look at the pronouns statistics in detail. About 20% of respondents (closer to 25% among those under age 30!) include it/its among their preferred pronouns. More than 10% of respondents don't want people using they, he, or she. Consider that nonbinary people who make these choices about their preferred pronouns are probably aware of whatever objections you have to them, and that your perspective is necessarily limited.
As someone uses these pronouns, very few people actually use them when referring to me. The resistance to these pronouns is surprisingly strong, even among queers.
I think a lot of the resistance is from the aging gays (aka me).
I’m old enough to remember getting called “it” by people who wanted to dehumanize me for being a lesbian. It might have been you (I remember it was someone on tildes) who produced a compelling argument that made me significantly less uncomfortable about people identifying as those pronouns, as I used to be vehemently against it.
I still don’t feel comfortable adding it/it’s to my vernacular quite yet…Internally it feels similar to calling someone a faggot in conversation, even if the context wasn’t as a slur. I probably would comply if it/it’s were the only pronouns that someone identified with out of respect, though. But I would be lying if I denied having this strange internal battle every time.
Edit: Shoot, I read your comment below before I wrote this post, but it didn’t click in my brain until after I reread it again after I spoke. You’re well aware of how folks like me feel and once again you have such compelling points that I feel like I just need to take a seat and reevaluate my own feelings. I really appreciate the patience you have for speaking on this topic.
Hey, you might appreciate this previous thread about it/its pronouns!
Thanks for sharing your struggle. I too have had folks use it in a similar fashion on me, as well as faggot and other slurs. I know how it feels and I have a ton of compassion for folks like you. Of everyone out there in the world, people like you and my partner have the most justification for discomfort with using it/its. I'm touched that you feel you need to reevaluate your own feelings, that means a lot to me and many others out there. Thank you.
It's definitely something I've had to work through my discomfort with. But I don't know anyone IRL that uses it/its that they've shared with me. (I've been introduced to a few folks but not anyone that I've continued to see/interact with) So I don't have the out loud verbal practice yet.
Trying to do better for folks like you!
Yup, it's a personal journey for many. I have a partner who has an extreme discomfort with the word, but she's also experienced a lot of harassment and discrimination over the years. I don't expect things to change anytime soon, if ever with her, and it doesn't bother me that she doesn't use those pronouns because I know her struggles. I don't think there's an easy one-size-fits-all solution to this. Some people will always be uncomfortable with using it/its, but I think we should all assess where that discomfort comes from and if we have loved ones or just want to be more welcoming in general to work towards dismantling that discomfort wherever possible. We should have compassion for those who struggle with or cannot dismantle that discomfort when it comes from a place of personal trauma, but I also think we shouldn't let people rest on the laurels of discomfort when it comes to how they perceive the word when it's never been wielded against them or their loved ones. To be clear- I don't think we should be playing oppression Olympics here and we should give people a large amount of space to navigate this personally, but we should be realistic about assessing the needs of the individuals involved and attempting to minimize net harm. Chances are in most situations the person requesting it/its pronouns to be used on it are either more marginalized overall or at the very least more marginalized with respect to it's identity than the person who feels uncomfortable using it/its pronouns in conversation with it.
Agreed! and your input as someone that uses those pronouns is much appreciated. I do wish there was an easier way to indicate pronouns for Tildes users so I would not worry about retaining this information in the future. But then also most of the time we're not referring to our fellow posters in the third person especially by pronouns rather than usernames, and at the least Tildes usually defaults to "they" in my experience rather than assuming everyone is a (cis) man on the internet
tbf tho, one of my first instances of gender euphoria was someone assuming I was a dude in an argument on reddit and using he/him pronouns for me lol
That is fair, my apologies for the unintended negative side effect for the they-volution!
They is also a pronoun I use, and in general pronouns aren't a huge thing for me. The ability to edit display name to include pronouns I think would be a nice inclusive feature for Tildes. I think having them in bio isn't terrible but I'm also the kind of person who will just they nearly everyone (I have been doing this my whole life for some strange reason 😉) and also often will check someone's profile to see their pronouns when I wish to address them in 3rd person.
I do think having visible pronouns as even an optional feature would be really great. It's something that's already a thing in other places (Zoom has an option to display pronouns next to names and Discord has them prominently next to the username if you right-click/longpress a display name to see someone's profile), so it wouldn't even be wildly progressive. If anything, it would make it easier to filter out a certain flavor of bad actor who would flip out just seeing that Tildes "has pronouns"
I have not been lucky in looking at profiles for pronouns, in that they're not showing, or the profiles don't show correctly in 3 Cheers, I'll have to look later
Yeah I don't think profile descriptions are visible in 3 Cheers, at least I can't find them without opening someone's profile in browser
Ah ok not just me then
Yeah, I'll admit even I struggle with some discomfort using it/its, and since my wife uses them it's something I've had to work through fast! So I'm empathetic when people say they make them uncomfortable, but it's the kind of discomfort we need to learn to push through out of respect for others.
I recently said that our residence hall LGBTQ+ community teaches me new pronouns every time I visit students there. And they do!
I want to scan through this more for some data for trainings later
I find myself wishing that English had better ungendered polite/formal modes of address. Mr./Ms./Mx don't work that well for me since the antecedents are Latin-derived English class signifiers - "Master" and "Mistress".
I like "Per", from Marge Piercy's novel Woman on the Edge of Time (Warning: spoilers), which also had the first literary use of "ze". It's one of those gender neutral honorifics/pronouns that goes in and out of style due to lack of uniformly agreed-upon adoption.
I don't think having them not be Latin-derived would help much -- in Germany the equivalent for "Mrs/Ms/Miss" is literally just the word for "woman", which is even more gender-laden imo.
I don't hate Mx. as an option just bc it's explicitly non-binary, and I wish there were something even close to that here in Germany. But ultimately I think coining new honorifics like this is hard because it's a part of language and culture that's quite old-fashioned and slow to adapt already.
A gender survey specifically for non-binary people is an interesting idea! That write-up was quite a good read.