Although some of the reactions from the residents seem more angry than necessary, I still agree with the sentiment quite a bit. "Straight pride" is ridiculous in the same way a White History Month...
Although some of the reactions from the residents seem more angry than necessary, I still agree with the sentiment quite a bit. "Straight pride" is ridiculous in the same way a White History Month or International Men's Day is. It's insulting, unnecessary, and purposefully inciteful.
Not to mention the straight pride flag is kinda an eyesore, in my opinion. Black and white doesn't really make a good flag, haha.
It's just cryptofascism, they know the typical person who doesn't think too much about politics won't be able to formulate a strong argument against it and they use that fact to embolden their own...
Exemplary
It's just cryptofascism, they know the typical person who doesn't think too much about politics won't be able to formulate a strong argument against it and they use that fact to embolden their own and radicalize people on the edge to their side.
In general, I think, the "social progressives" need to do a better job educating each other about why things like gay pride exist beyond it being cool and righteous. Even something as simple as "Even in recent history gays have been persecuted and mistreated by society, the purpose of pride is to heal these divides and help break down the barriers non-hetrosexuals continue to face" would shut most of these numbskulls up.
e: and most importantly, it gives a response to people who aren't totally on board with the progressive program that doesn't make progressives seem like the loons the right paints them to be
Bingo. It's the same bullshit as the "it's OK to be white" meme. No one is actually saying "it's not OK to be white", in the same way no one is oppressing straight people. But by bringing it up,...
It's just cryptofascism, they know the typical person who doesn't think too much about politics won't be able to formulate a strong argument against it and they use that fact to embolden their own and radicalize people on the edge to their side.
Bingo. It's the same bullshit as the "it's OK to be white" meme.
No one is actually saying "it's not OK to be white", in the same way no one is oppressing straight people. But by bringing it up, it plants the seed in people's heads that maybe someone is actually saying it, and maybe straight white people are actually under threat.
It might be a stupid idea but: has anyone ever tried to re-hijack these kinds of "we respect the majority too!" arguments? The central conceit to these is that they postulate a platitude you can't...
It might be a stupid idea but: has anyone ever tried to re-hijack these kinds of "we respect the majority too!" arguments?
The central conceit to these is that they postulate a platitude you can't really disagree with lest you be accused of hypocrisy (e.g. "everyone should be equal"), hijack the conversation and turn attention away from the progressive agenda, and then taunt the progressive side into reacting in a way that looks bad because most people don't understand the actual logic at play.
But what if you tried to turn that against them? What if instead of acknowledging the conservative subtext you go along in agreeing with the platitude and then use that to re-focus the conversation on the progressive side. For example when somebody mentions straight pride you say "yes! Everyone is equal, and that's why we're talking about gay pride" and insistently continue banging that drum. And then they can't retort you any more, because you haven't disagreed, the only way they could then try and reclaim the conversation would be to:
openly disagree with the notion of gay pride, which kills their earlier argument
insist that straight people are an oppressed class, at which point you can turn their own tactic against them and accuse them of arguing for straight supremacy instead of total equality
It's like the "all lives matter" response to "black lives matter". You're correct in saying it, but that doesn't mean that "all lives matter" adds anything to a discussion. It's dismissive, and...
It's like the "all lives matter" response to "black lives matter". You're correct in saying it, but that doesn't mean that "all lives matter" adds anything to a discussion. It's dismissive, and comes from an intentional misunderstanding of what "black lives matter" means, so each side reads it differently.
BLM: Black people are getting murdered in the streets by racist police officers.
ALM: Everyone has value. (Yes, but what about the kids getting shot in the back? Do we just forget about them now?)
The ALM is actually what I thought of immediately when I read this article. Totally agree with your comment and others here too. ALM and straight pride is trying to argue something that no one...
The ALM is actually what I thought of immediately when I read this article. Totally agree with your comment and others here too. ALM and straight pride is trying to argue something that no one said, that is non-black lives don't matter or hetero pride is not a thing. The fact that ALM and straight pride is used as a direct response to BLM and LGBTQ+ pride shows how they are trying to delegitimize the BLM/LGBTQ+ pride's message.
Don't disagree with what you are saying but I feel like the naming of BLM could have been worded better. If it was named something like "Stop police murders" I think there would be less pointless...
Don't disagree with what you are saying but I feel like the naming of BLM could have been worded better. If it was named something like "Stop police murders" I think there would be less pointless arguing and a cause that everyone feels included in and can support.
I kind of feel that a lot of these new social issue groups come of as exclusionary to some groups of people when those excluded groups should be welcomed in to help even if they are not the victims of the issue at hand they still can play a huge role in helping out.
Support of oppressed groups shouldn't be based on if those groups are nice to you. Even on a practical level, how much help do you think people who are that easily turned off and swayed away is...
Support of oppressed groups shouldn't be based on if those groups are nice to you. Even on a practical level, how much help do you think people who are that easily turned off and swayed away is going to be? I know I wouldn't want to be alongside someone who would flop on me if I didn't explicitly include them in the name of the group that exists to resist cops murdering me.
While the arguing over the name makes me sad because I think it shouldn't be remotely controversial, I think it's a mistake to call it "pointless". Those weak convictions and light, extremely conditional support were clearly there before and the name really brought that to light to be talked about. BLM being called what it is didn't create those conditions, it just dragged them into the public eye.
But the point of the Black Lives Matter movement is that black people get murdered (or shot or attacked or even just targeted) by police a lot more than white people. Sure, there's a problem when...
If it was named something like "Stop police murders" I think there would be less pointless arguing and a cause that everyone feels included in and can support.
But the point of the Black Lives Matter movement is that black people get murdered (or shot or attacked or even just targeted) by police a lot more than white people. Sure, there's a problem when police are murdering anyone, but there's a different problem when police are murdering members of one group of people more than other groups of people - and both those problems need addressing. Because, even if you did stop police murders tomorrow... that wouldn't address the other problem of police targeting black people more than other groups.
These are some of the arguments I used to use when discussing feminism but slowly I am seeing what Whom are saying below. It adds nothing to the discussion other than derailing it and if you think...
These are some of the arguments I used to use when discussing feminism but slowly I am seeing what Whom are saying below. It adds nothing to the discussion other than derailing it and if you think of it it can be somewhat insulting to the people with the real problems just to bring it up. I think we need to take a step back and listen to what excatly is being said instead of hanging on to words and searching for things to argue about. If your not included it's not about you and therefore you shouldn't look for you in it.
I think some time in the near future some countries might need to stop with gay pride events as they will become as pointless as straight pride. I'm not saying that time is now but I think within...
better job educating each other about why things like gay pride exist beyond it being cool and righteous.
I think some time in the near future some countries might need to stop with gay pride events as they will become as pointless as straight pride. I'm not saying that time is now but I think within 20-30 years almost everyone in someone countries will never feel discriminated on because of their sexuality.
I participated in the events to legalize gay marriage in Australia but I don't go to the general yearly events because I feel that in my area there is very little discrimination towards gay people in 2018. Maybe these events should pivot to focus on transgender issues now.
I admire you optimism, but also can't help but feel that you're incredibly naive if you think LGBTIQ still don't still regularly face discrimination (and worse) even in the Western world. Hell,...
I admire you optimism, but also can't help but feel that you're incredibly naive if you think LGBTIQ still don't still regularly face discrimination (and worse) even in the Western world. Hell, just the other day in your home country of Australia we saw very clear evidence that discrimination is still taking place: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-23/sydney-anglicans-banning-ssm-on-thousands-properties/10418108
Homophobia is still very much alive and well, even in the Western world, and in 20-30 years that is unlikely to change IMO, just as racism is sadly still alive and well.
I don't doubt things are still not perfect but I see them getting better very fast. In some areas change is slower but in the cities today its perfectly feasible that a young gay person has never...
I don't doubt things are still not perfect but I see them getting better very fast. In some areas change is slower but in the cities today its perfectly feasible that a young gay person has never faced any issues because of it. Also there will always be news stories about bad things but the average person doesn't face the same things that make it to the news.
All the major studies and surveys related to this have shown that bullying amongst LGBTIQ youth is significantly higher (≈2x) than that of their heterosexual peers, so what exactly are you basing...
All the major studies and surveys related to this have shown that bullying amongst LGBTIQ youth is significantly higher (≈2x) than that of their heterosexual peers, so what exactly are you basing your opinion on?
Personal experience being openly gay in highschool as well as the experiences of the others I knew in the same situation. Obviously I had some good luck with my area and school but I see this...
Personal experience being openly gay in highschool as well as the experiences of the others I knew in the same situation. Obviously I had some good luck with my area and school but I see this becoming more common in the future until the majority of people have good experiences in 10-20 years.
Not at all. In my higher up comment I said when gay issues are pretty much solved I think we should pivot to focusing more on transgender issues because I predict they will be an issue for a lot...
Not at all. In my higher up comment I said when gay issues are pretty much solved I think we should pivot to focusing more on transgender issues because I predict they will be an issue for a lot longer.
But you've strongly implied throughout all your comments here that gay issues are pretty much solved - because they're solved for you. We don't need to help other gay people; you've got yours.
I said when gay issues are pretty much solved
But you've strongly implied throughout all your comments here that gay issues are pretty much solved - because they're solved for you. We don't need to help other gay people; you've got yours.
They have gone from not solved for me to solved in a fairly quick time which is also the pace I see in other places so I predict in the next 20 years they will be solved for most people in the...
They have gone from not solved for me to solved in a fairly quick time which is also the pace I see in other places so I predict in the next 20 years they will be solved for most people in the country.
Is this just going to happen magically by itself? Or do you think people will need to do something to make sure these problems are solved for everyone?
I predict in the next 20 years they will be solved for most people in the country.
Is this just going to happen magically by itself? Or do you think people will need to do something to make sure these problems are solved for everyone?
Statements like that makes me wonder about quotes like: And if the reverse is true, that is, for the oppressed, any inch they give us feels like equality. Change for LGBTQ+ rights have been slow,...
I don't doubt things are still not perfect but I see them getting better very fast.
Statements like that makes me wonder about quotes like:
for the privileged equality feels like oppression
And if the reverse is true, that is, for the oppressed, any inch they give us feels like equality. Change for LGBTQ+ rights have been slow, and changes tend to plateau, get reversed and such.
What about in other areas? What about your gay teenage brethren and sistren in rural towns, who still face discrimination, persecution, and bullying, to the point where they're committing suicide...
I feel that in my area there is very little discrimination towards gay people in 2018.
What about in other areas? What about your gay teenage brethren and sistren in rural towns, who still face discrimination, persecution, and bullying, to the point where they're committing suicide at a higher rate than most other demographics in Australia? Don't they need your support? By being visible, we send those people a signal that they're not alone, there are other people out there like them, and that they can reach out for support.
I don't really have an issue with international men's day to be honest, if you have one, why not have the other? There are some legit issues men face that could be talked about on such a day, like...
I don't really have an issue with international men's day to be honest, if you have one, why not have the other? There are some legit issues men face that could be talked about on such a day, like mental health.
Undoubtedly. But here's a few things to consider. How many people would actually use it as a time to talk about male mental health? It seems much more likely that MRA's would just use it to...
Undoubtedly. But here's a few things to consider.
How many people would actually use it as a time to talk about male mental health? It seems much more likely that MRA's would just use it to further deprecate women.
Not only that, but there already is an International Men's Day. No one seems to realize that when they call for it. Perhaps the call for International Men's day is just yet another way to diminish women's rights.
I'm sure not all MRAs want to demean women. I'm sure there are people who seriously want to address male-specific issues. But from my experience, the majority of MRAs just use it as a vehicle to further their hate.
I know that international men's day exists. Because of that, I was thinking that you were advocating for it's ban. Presuming it doesn't exist, how would the call for such a day diminish women's...
I know that international men's day exists. Because of that, I was thinking that you were advocating for it's ban.
Presuming it doesn't exist, how would the call for such a day diminish women's rights? If men's day was more of an officially recognized day (like women's day) maybe public institutions could use it to talk about problems men face. This would push attention more towards those legitimate issues and away from hateful comments made on the internet.
I don't think it's right to assume that the majority of MRAs are mysogonists. Sure, you'll always find people like that, especially on the internet. But then again, you can do the same with feminists.
"Straight pride" is exactly like "it's okay to be white" and "all lives matter" and "men's rights" and calling oneself a "humanist" instead of a feminist - they all contradict the very concept of...
Exemplary
"Straight pride" is exactly like "it's okay to be white" and "all lives matter" and "men's rights" and calling oneself a "humanist" instead of a feminist - they all contradict the very concept of discrimination, by implying that the majority that's doing the oppressing of a minority is somehow being oppressed as well as the minority. The whole point of gay pride and black lives matter and feminism is for the underdogs to fight back. You don't get to paint yourself as the victim when you're the victimiser.
Although some of the reactions from the residents seem more angry than necessary, I still agree with the sentiment quite a bit. "Straight pride" is ridiculous in the same way a White History Month or International Men's Day is. It's insulting, unnecessary, and purposefully inciteful.
Not to mention the straight pride flag is kinda an eyesore, in my opinion. Black and white doesn't really make a good flag, haha.It's just cryptofascism, they know the typical person who doesn't think too much about politics won't be able to formulate a strong argument against it and they use that fact to embolden their own and radicalize people on the edge to their side.
In general, I think, the "social progressives" need to do a better job educating each other about why things like gay pride exist beyond it being cool and righteous. Even something as simple as "Even in recent history gays have been persecuted and mistreated by society, the purpose of pride is to heal these divides and help break down the barriers non-hetrosexuals continue to face" would shut most of these numbskulls up.
e: and most importantly, it gives a response to people who aren't totally on board with the progressive program that doesn't make progressives seem like the loons the right paints them to be
Bingo. It's the same bullshit as the "it's OK to be white" meme.
No one is actually saying "it's not OK to be white", in the same way no one is oppressing straight people. But by bringing it up, it plants the seed in people's heads that maybe someone is actually saying it, and maybe straight white people are actually under threat.
It might be a stupid idea but: has anyone ever tried to re-hijack these kinds of "we respect the majority too!" arguments?
The central conceit to these is that they postulate a platitude you can't really disagree with lest you be accused of hypocrisy (e.g. "everyone should be equal"), hijack the conversation and turn attention away from the progressive agenda, and then taunt the progressive side into reacting in a way that looks bad because most people don't understand the actual logic at play.
But what if you tried to turn that against them? What if instead of acknowledging the conservative subtext you go along in agreeing with the platitude and then use that to re-focus the conversation on the progressive side. For example when somebody mentions straight pride you say "yes! Everyone is equal, and that's why we're talking about gay pride" and insistently continue banging that drum. And then they can't retort you any more, because you haven't disagreed, the only way they could then try and reclaim the conversation would be to:
This has been my go-to strategy the few times I've encountered someone making that type of argument in real life. It usually works pretty well.
It's like the "all lives matter" response to "black lives matter". You're correct in saying it, but that doesn't mean that "all lives matter" adds anything to a discussion. It's dismissive, and comes from an intentional misunderstanding of what "black lives matter" means, so each side reads it differently.
BLM: Black people are getting murdered in the streets by racist police officers.
ALM: Everyone has value. (Yes, but what about the kids getting shot in the back? Do we just forget about them now?)
The ALM is actually what I thought of immediately when I read this article. Totally agree with your comment and others here too. ALM and straight pride is trying to argue something that no one said, that is non-black lives don't matter or hetero pride is not a thing. The fact that ALM and straight pride is used as a direct response to BLM and LGBTQ+ pride shows how they are trying to delegitimize the BLM/LGBTQ+ pride's message.
Don't disagree with what you are saying but I feel like the naming of BLM could have been worded better. If it was named something like "Stop police murders" I think there would be less pointless arguing and a cause that everyone feels included in and can support.
I kind of feel that a lot of these new social issue groups come of as exclusionary to some groups of people when those excluded groups should be welcomed in to help even if they are not the victims of the issue at hand they still can play a huge role in helping out.
Support of oppressed groups shouldn't be based on if those groups are nice to you. Even on a practical level, how much help do you think people who are that easily turned off and swayed away is going to be? I know I wouldn't want to be alongside someone who would flop on me if I didn't explicitly include them in the name of the group that exists to resist cops murdering me.
While the arguing over the name makes me sad because I think it shouldn't be remotely controversial, I think it's a mistake to call it "pointless". Those weak convictions and light, extremely conditional support were clearly there before and the name really brought that to light to be talked about. BLM being called what it is didn't create those conditions, it just dragged them into the public eye.
But the point of the Black Lives Matter movement is that black people get murdered (or shot or attacked or even just targeted) by police a lot more than white people. Sure, there's a problem when police are murdering anyone, but there's a different problem when police are murdering members of one group of people more than other groups of people - and both those problems need addressing. Because, even if you did stop police murders tomorrow... that wouldn't address the other problem of police targeting black people more than other groups.
These are some of the arguments I used to use when discussing feminism but slowly I am seeing what Whom are saying below. It adds nothing to the discussion other than derailing it and if you think of it it can be somewhat insulting to the people with the real problems just to bring it up. I think we need to take a step back and listen to what excatly is being said instead of hanging on to words and searching for things to argue about. If your not included it's not about you and therefore you shouldn't look for you in it.
I think some time in the near future some countries might need to stop with gay pride events as they will become as pointless as straight pride. I'm not saying that time is now but I think within 20-30 years almost everyone in someone countries will never feel discriminated on because of their sexuality.
I participated in the events to legalize gay marriage in Australia but I don't go to the general yearly events because I feel that in my area there is very little discrimination towards gay people in 2018. Maybe these events should pivot to focus on transgender issues now.
I admire you optimism, but also can't help but feel that you're incredibly naive if you think LGBTIQ still don't still regularly face discrimination (and worse) even in the Western world. Hell, just the other day in your home country of Australia we saw very clear evidence that discrimination is still taking place:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-10-23/sydney-anglicans-banning-ssm-on-thousands-properties/10418108
And lets not forget Tyrone Unsworth from just 2 years ago:
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-12-05/kids-at-school-keep-telling-me-to-kill-myself-tyrone-unsworth/8093910
Homophobia is still very much alive and well, even in the Western world, and in 20-30 years that is unlikely to change IMO, just as racism is sadly still alive and well.
I don't doubt things are still not perfect but I see them getting better very fast. In some areas change is slower but in the cities today its perfectly feasible that a young gay person has never faced any issues because of it. Also there will always be news stories about bad things but the average person doesn't face the same things that make it to the news.
All the major studies and surveys related to this have shown that bullying amongst LGBTIQ youth is significantly higher (≈2x) than that of their heterosexual peers, so what exactly are you basing your opinion on?
Personal experience being openly gay in highschool as well as the experiences of the others I knew in the same situation. Obviously I had some good luck with my area and school but I see this becoming more common in the future until the majority of people have good experiences in 10-20 years.
Based on this, one could characterise your position as "fuck you, I got mine".
Not at all. In my higher up comment I said when gay issues are pretty much solved I think we should pivot to focusing more on transgender issues because I predict they will be an issue for a lot longer.
But you've strongly implied throughout all your comments here that gay issues are pretty much solved - because they're solved for you. We don't need to help other gay people; you've got yours.
They have gone from not solved for me to solved in a fairly quick time which is also the pace I see in other places so I predict in the next 20 years they will be solved for most people in the country.
Is this just going to happen magically by itself? Or do you think people will need to do something to make sure these problems are solved for everyone?
So, because some gay people no longer face issues, we can give up the fight? The problem of gay discrimination is all fixed now?
Statements like that makes me wonder about quotes like:
And if the reverse is true, that is, for the oppressed, any inch they give us feels like equality. Change for LGBTQ+ rights have been slow, and changes tend to plateau, get reversed and such.
What about in other areas? What about your gay teenage brethren and sistren in rural towns, who still face discrimination, persecution, and bullying, to the point where they're committing suicide at a higher rate than most other demographics in Australia? Don't they need your support? By being visible, we send those people a signal that they're not alone, there are other people out there like them, and that they can reach out for support.
I don't really have an issue with international men's day to be honest, if you have one, why not have the other? There are some legit issues men face that could be talked about on such a day, like mental health.
Undoubtedly. But here's a few things to consider.
How many people would actually use it as a time to talk about male mental health? It seems much more likely that MRA's would just use it to further deprecate women.
Not only that, but there already is an International Men's Day. No one seems to realize that when they call for it. Perhaps the call for International Men's day is just yet another way to diminish women's rights.
I'm sure not all MRAs want to demean women. I'm sure there are people who seriously want to address male-specific issues. But from my experience, the majority of MRAs just use it as a vehicle to further their hate.
I know that international men's day exists. Because of that, I was thinking that you were advocating for it's ban.
Presuming it doesn't exist, how would the call for such a day diminish women's rights? If men's day was more of an officially recognized day (like women's day) maybe public institutions could use it to talk about problems men face. This would push attention more towards those legitimate issues and away from hateful comments made on the internet.
I don't think it's right to assume that the majority of MRAs are mysogonists. Sure, you'll always find people like that, especially on the internet. But then again, you can do the same with feminists.
"Straight pride" is exactly like "it's okay to be white" and "all lives matter" and "men's rights" and calling oneself a "humanist" instead of a feminist - they all contradict the very concept of discrimination, by implying that the majority that's doing the oppressing of a minority is somehow being oppressed as well as the minority. The whole point of gay pride and black lives matter and feminism is for the underdogs to fight back. You don't get to paint yourself as the victim when you're the victimiser.