Modern men: A summary of Tildes community discussion
The other day I created a post here to evoke discussion around what kind of topics, and community norms we might consider. I offered up initial thoughts to spark conversation and there were a lot of people offerings deep insights. I spent the past few days learning from everyone and reading through comments. I tried to capture the high level take aways in a summary and added it as an edit to my original post. Here is a link to the full thread.
It was suggested I post that summary as a new topic for better visibility and so that's the intention of this new post. This is only the foundation of what we could consider as we evolve the discussions, and it helps surface the initial thoughts and perspectives we have collectively shared.
It's encouraging to see such in-depth and thoughtful conversations on ~life.men. I wanted to take a moment to recap the significant themes I read up to this point. This is high level, so please correct me if I got it wrong, and I may have missed something valuable that needs called out.
Our discussions around Stoicism have been quite enlightening, and we've recognized its potential to encourage self-control and inner resilience. Nevertheless, we've also acknowledged its potential misuse, which might inadvertently promote unhealthy aspects of masculinity. This is a subject that requires more nuanced exploration.
We've unanimously expressed the need for a supportive environment for men of all identities. This includes cis, gay, trans, and men of all other identifications. Despite potential challenges such as toxicity and inactivity, many believe this forum can serve as a respectful and positive space to engage in discussions about contemporary masculinity.
Conversations have emphasized challenging traditional gender norms and fostering inclusivity. There's been a strong consensus against defining masculinity by outdated stereotypes. We've expressed a shared commitment to creating an environment welcoming everyone, regardless of gender identity. We also acknowledge the role of diverse geographical and cultural backgrounds in shaping our understanding of gender, which we deeply value.
The topic of men's role in promoting gender equality has been prominent. We agree on the importance of men as allies in this movement. Tackling the rigid roles defined by patriarchal norms is crucial, as is having open and transparent conversations on these issues. Progress in gender equality benefits everyone - it's not a zero-sum game.
We've also delved into gender norms, roles, and the usage of gendered language. It's been helpful to see such scrutiny of societal expectations and a strong emphasis on promoting universally beneficial values and inclusivity. There's a shared understanding of the complexity of gendered language and how it can both define personal identity and represent broader affiliations.
We've explored varied experiences in male-specific spaces. From the importance of representing all demographics to discussing the challenges of modern fatherhood, we've covered extensive territory. There's a shared commitment to guard against potential toxicity and ensure balance in all our discussions.
We have expressed the importance of focused discussions on men's experiences. Challenging assumptions about masculinity and addressing men's issues from multiple perspectives can impact our society.
I'm new to Tildes and not sure where to go from here. Given all the valuable insights and themes we've gathered, how can we adopt draft guidelines for our community? I suspect we can see how this develops organically, but I appreciate approaching things intentionally. Thanks for all the comments and discussions. It has me thinking much more broadly and about things I hadn't considered.
EDIT
I received early feedback that "guidelines" may be the wrong ask here. The thought was to be intentional and surface a "purpose" for having a men group. Being new to Tildes, I'll defer to community as to what's the right way to move forward. Regardless, I appreciate the conversations and discourse that Tildes brings.
That was an interesting post, and it sparked a lot of worthwhile discussion. Thanks for that.
However...
Why do you feel the need for guidelines in this group? No other group or sub-group on Tildes has guidelines for posting. What's the point of having guidelines here, above and beyond the Tildes Code of Conduct?
Also, do we really need more meta discussion about this group?
I think people should just... post topics... and see what works. People can post what they think is relevant, just like in any other Tildes group. People can vote on those topics, just like in any other Tildes group. People can discuss those posts however they see fit, just like in any other Tildes group. And, if someone crosses a line, we can use the comment labels to deal with those comments, just like in any other Tildes group.
Fair enough and this is a reason I appreciate Tildes so far. I'll review the doc again, thank you. You are right, people will post whatever they like and the community will decide what should be discussed.
Part of the reason I have brought this up is to help understand what kind of "purpose" having this men group could serve. Unfortunately, I have seen this go bad on other communities, but I'm hopeful this won't be the case here.
That was already covered in depth in this thread, which was dominated by multiple discussions about whether to create a womens group on Tildes, and whether we should have a corresponding mens group. It might be worth reading through some of that material.
Then, when Deimos announced the creation of these groups, he said this: "Whether to create groups for men and women took up a lot of the air in the suggestions topic (and was the source of some strife—please don't restart that in here). I think it's worth trying them, but it's definitely an experiment." [emphasis mine] That means this group is ours to do whatever we want.
So... what do you want to see here?
Post it!
This is something I was wondering when I saw this sentiment expressed in a thread in ~life.women. I refrained from posting about it there, but it's been gnawing at me. Apparently, for better or worse, there's a significant desire for additional posting guidelines. I guess it's because of the perceived additional safety they would bring?
Edit: Looking back, it's actually only a single comment, but it does have more than a couple of votes.
@Abdoanmes clarified that point in his later replies here, and in a subsequent edit to the main topic:
So, he doesn't want rules for this group, he wants reasons for it.
However, I'm not sure there is a reason, beyond Deimos simply giving us a space called "men" to experiment with.
And part of me even wonders whether the "purpose" for this mens group is just like one woman said in the groups suggestion topic: "The one nice thing about creating a men’s group is that it indicates that the default isn’t men." (Which I strongly agree with.) So... maybe it's as simple as that: we got a mens group just to act as a counterpart to the womens group, which is the main group that Deimos intended to create.
But, now that we've got this group, what we do with it is up to us - and we can discover that organically.
Thank you @Algernon_Asimov I didn't want to propose a rigid structure or rules. I'm new to the community and still learning the culture here. After onboarding and reading through documentation about Tildes, I was grasping on what next steps to take for involvement the past weeks. I have a strong desire to lurk a bit longer and absorb how things play out. A piece of me pushes to be more intentional and help broach conversations which resulted in the meta post about what this group is about.
Because this group surfaced, it helped to hear more what the community was thinking it could be. It sounds like there are good themes and ideas on what posts may come. I know some work well with vagueness and others appreciate a bit more detail (myself).
One point I would make - tildes is a community, and I don’t think I would like it as much if each different classification/topic/area/sub/whatever had its own rules or guidelines.
I fear it might disrupt what we have here and reduce its appeal. I’m not even sure what I’m trying to say, honestly, but this set off a siren in my skull.
If we are to draft guidelines, shouldn’t they be incorporated into the overall guidelines in the tildes documentation?
❤️
There is a wiki system on this platform so perhaps one idea would be to simply link a handful of the big meta conversations the group has generated (this goes beyond just ~life.men but any board with significant meta discussion). While sidebars aren't read much by people, it might allow a thread like this one to be the object of conversation for months rather than having many separate smaller meta posts popping up. This is less formal than "guidelines" which as per @Algernon_Asimov I agree is unneeded as long as Tildes groups remain "un-atomized."
That's a fair point and I'm learning how this community works. I will spend more time reviewing guidelines of Tildes again. Thank you. Overall, I was hoping to understand the "purpose" for this group.
I wonder if a pair of posts about guidelines is a bit much?
It's not a subreddit, I don't think disparate guidelines are really a thing.
Don't act like an asshole.
Bingo, bango, Bob's your uncle. Guidelines :D
The right way is as @Algernon_Asimov suggested following the Tildes Code of Conduct. I don't think your post represents all men that was in the last discussion, Tildes as an international community should encourage the discussion of men from diverse idiologies and cultures.
I hate to say I took particular umbridge with the statement that the previous discussion promoted the idea of challenging gender norms when my comments in that thread were explicitly about the pressure on men to challenge gender norms or be considered 'problematic' or simply sidelined entirely from 'men's' discussion. Despite agreeing with most of OP's stances and outlook on the matter, it just feels like rules to restrict what men can talk about being men in their particular place and time.
I'm obviously not advocating for negativity or exclusion but I feel that creating a set of rules would foster less discussion and therefore reach less men, and people, in general.
I've discussed masculinity with men from many different cultures, plenty I disagree with and some I do, but even when they said stuff that got an internal yikes from me I let them state their view and tried to evaluate pros and cons of everything while advocating for my personal beliefs.
You shouldn't use the 'Offtopic' label to try and hide opinions you don't agree with.
It can be a bit of a grey area when it’s relevant to a broader context, but maybe not to the specific topic. Like if every time someone was asking for car recommendations for their set of criteria, someone starts a comment chain “cars are unnecessary; you should walk or bike instead”. Looking at it one way it seems on-topic enough, but really the topic was which to buy not if so it could be considered off-topic regardless whether you agree or not.