First and foremost I think the best thing you can do for women in your life and in general is be an advocate. You hear other guys "locker room talk" call that shit out as disgusting. You also have...
First and foremost I think the best thing you can do for women in your life and in general is be an advocate. You hear other guys "locker room talk" call that shit out as disgusting.
You also have to be careful how you encourage people to help themselves, you don't know trauma they've already been through and your advice may end up being victim blaming.
I dont go out at night alone, I don't go to crowded places alone. I know my exits, I dress for what will fit in for the occasion essentially try to blend into the background. You learn the types of groups to avoid and you avoid the hell out of them. No drinks left alone, keys between fingers in parking lots.
I dont worry about weapons much because any person especially men who want to overpower me can and will get the weapon and use it on me. Same reason I don't do martial arts for self defense. Just biologically speaking men will overpower me and I don't want false confidence. That's not to say do don't these things for yourself but be realistic in what they can and can't do for you.
Since you mentioned you're looking for information, a few thoughts -- The first thing you have to do is assess the situation. If it's a robbery, just give the assailant your stuff - none of it is...
Since you mentioned you're looking for information, a few thoughts --
The first thing you have to do is assess the situation. If it's a robbery, just give the assailant your stuff - none of it is worth dying for. In some situations, you can de-escalate by backing down, running away, apologizing. Sometimes, however, someone has already decided to hurt you. In these situations, your odds of survival go up dramatically if you fight back.
Never, ever go to a second location without a fight. If someone is trying to force you into a car to take you somewhere, fight for your life.
If you've made the decision to fight back, you need to do so as aggressively as possible. Smash their nose. Dig your thumbs into their eyes. Fight like a wounded badger. And when you get the chance, run like hell.
For training - the right training is very helpful. Something along the lines of krav maga - practical self-defense training - is usually pretty good. Unfortunately, a lot of self-defense courses marketed to women are garbage. To your point, traditional martial arts (e.g. karate) are only barely better than nothing.
Weapons are, for the most part, out of the scope of this comment because the majority of them need training to be used effectively. One possible exception is a push dagger, which, if you're going to carry a knife for self-defense without extensive training, should be what you choose.
For all of this - training, weapons, whatever - the goal isn't necessarily to win the fight without being scratched. As you may know, knife fights are nasty business. There's a saying in the tactical community - "the loser dies on the street, the winner dies on the way to the hospital." But if you're facing the risk of death anyway, the goal is to shock the assailant and demonstrate that you are not easy prey. Many predatory men will back off, decide the risk is not worth it, etc.
Sorry, sort of a rambling post that didn't really address your question re: tools and weapons - but it's hard to talk about that stuff in a vacuum.
Krav maga is basically make believe though, I wouldn’t recommend it. Useful martial arts must be pressure testable, and you can’t realistically pressure test Krav Maga without crippling your partner.
Krav maga is basically make believe though, I wouldn’t recommend it. Useful martial arts must be pressure testable, and you can’t realistically pressure test Krav Maga without crippling your partner.
That's not really true. There are many elements of krav maga you can spar with. And, for what it's worth, which is it? Basically make believe or so dangerous that you can't test it without...
you can’t realistically pressure test Krav Maga without crippling your partner.
That's not really true. There are many elements of krav maga you can spar with. And, for what it's worth, which is it? Basically make believe or so dangerous that you can't test it without crippling your partner? It can't be both!
But more importantly - if you were going to attend 5 classes of any one fighting system, I'd recommend krav maga, no question. The mindset alone (rapid, aggressive strikes until the fight is over, one way or another) is extremely helpful to people who aren't familiar with violence.
Is it as good as a solid foundation of several years training Muay thai, BJJ, and takedowns with consistent sparring and ring time? Of course not. But that's not really a fair comparison.
For what it's worth, I am not a krav maga guy. But I'm familiar with the system and it's as something most people are familiar with and would know how to find.
There’s no contradiction here — the techniques are dangerous enough that you can’t drill them under real pressure, which means you will only ever have an academic knowledge of how to employ them....
There’s no contradiction here — the techniques are dangerous enough that you can’t drill them under real pressure, which means you will only ever have an academic knowledge of how to employ them. You can pretend to do them but it’s not the same thing as doing them.
If you were going to attend 5 classes of self defence, you could do literally anything and get the exact same result — there is no useful 5 class self defence system. The only thing you may gain is a false sense of confidence which might honestly be more dangerous than no knowledge at all.
I'm assuming you're a practitioner of some sort of martial art? I'm saying so because this is a pretty standard mindset for someone who's training something routinely. And there's definitely some...
If you were going to attend 5 classes of self defence, you could do literally anything and get the exact same result — there is no useful 5 class self defence system.
I'm assuming you're a practitioner of some sort of martial art? I'm saying so because this is a pretty standard mindset for someone who's training something routinely. And there's definitely some truth to it.
But from the tactical perspective, it's not wholly accurate. As I said above, mindset is the most important thing, and you can learn to meet an attack with overwhelming violence of action and palm strikes in 5 sessions of a focused practical self défense course. I've seen it happen - with checkout exercises against full impact suits to demonstrate it.
Yes, I’ve been training for some 30 years in various martial arts (BJJ, TKD, boxing, kickboxing), and I’m fairly familiar with these kinds of short self defence courses. My wife has taken them,...
Yes, I’ve been training for some 30 years in various martial arts (BJJ, TKD, boxing, kickboxing), and I’m fairly familiar with these kinds of short self defence courses. My wife has taken them, and some of my gyms have hosted them in the past. I still have to disagree — 5 sessions of anything isn’t enough. To make it happen live against a real threat, you need instincts and muscle memory, which realistically means at least months of training and hard sparring. I’ve even seen fighters with years of experience freeze up in a real fight.
A bit off topic but if you ever find yourself in a locker room with men talking degradingly about women, I would report it to the front desk immediately. I have avidly played sports for over 40...
A bit off topic but if you ever find yourself in a locker room with men talking degradingly about women, I would report it to the front desk immediately. I have avidly played sports for over 40 years now, and have been a "gym rat" that entire time, so I have a lot of experience with men's locker rooms. I have not once been in one where men were talking in a gross or degrading manner about women. In my experience, it is not normal conversation for a locker room, and so I'm sure the management would be very interested if someone ever came along trying to normalize it.
Good on you for caring about the safety of the women in your life, and good luck.
It's a bit more than that. It's called locker room, not just for it's "heavy male environment" but also to give it a "every man does it" vibe. It's meant to give the idea that without women...
general term for heavily male environments where people say offensive shit without fear of repercussion.
It's a bit more than that. It's called locker room, not just for it's "heavy male environment" but also to give it a "every man does it" vibe. It's meant to give the idea that without women around, men can be their "natural" misogynistic self. It's used by men who want to harm women as a way to "normalize" that harm and make it sounds completely normal and common.
I suppose it depends on personality. I'm fairly outgoing, and I've been going to the same gym long enough and seen the same faces every day that it would be weird not to talk to each other. But...
I suppose it depends on personality. I'm fairly outgoing, and I've been going to the same gym long enough and seen the same faces every day that it would be weird not to talk to each other. But yeah, if it's not a light, friendly vibe, the second most common in my experience is no talking with the "I acknowledge your existence" nod in passing lol. It's a real shame that "locker room talk" is the common slang given to derogatory comments about women in men's spaces, as it couldn't be further from the truth.
I'm curious as to where that term comes from, since I've had the same experience as you in locker room gyms. I also play beer league hockey, and while there is talking in the locker room, it's...
I'm curious as to where that term comes from, since I've had the same experience as you in locker room gyms. I also play beer league hockey, and while there is talking in the locker room, it's never derogatory towards women or anything like that. Sometimes we'll call out something shitty that our opponent did, but none of us are standing there bashing women or anything like that.
I think overall, that kind of environment is more about the people you choose to surround yourself with rather than the location.
I hope people understood I put it in heavy quotes as to indicate my understanding it's not normal male behavior but it is a phrase used to normalize inappropriate male behavior. Also men are not...
I hope people understood I put it in heavy quotes as to indicate my understanding it's not normal male behavior but it is a phrase used to normalize inappropriate male behavior. Also men are not the only ones to hurting women, and I do feel like my original comment came off that way. So I do want to acknowledge my focus was on that but sometimes the most dangerous people to women are other women who lure girls into dangerous situations and that should also be acknowledged. Love bombing from males and females should be seen as a red flag.
Now to get back to your question about where the term comes from my guess is I suspect two places - one media particularly movies where locker rooms are potraid as raucous and raunchy places.
Secondly like the other user ix-ix said used by the people who are perpetrators of the behaviors to try and normalize their behaviors.
I mean you just have to go to a 2016 campaign to hear the term thrown around related to a grab them by their phrase.
Ahh yes, this is a good way of describing the term. It's just a shame that a term was chosen that is also often an important, positive place for either personal fitness (in the case of a gym...
is a phrase used to normalize inappropriate male behavior
Ahh yes, this is a good way of describing the term. It's just a shame that a term was chosen that is also often an important, positive place for either personal fitness (in the case of a gym locker room where men don't even talk to each other) or camaraderie (sports locker rooms). However, it's also a same that such a term even has to exist. The behavior described by the term is disgusting.
How to help keep women in your life safe: respect their boundaries (many women are socialized to disregard their own boundaries so it's good to help normalize respecting these) educate men around...
How to help keep women in your life safe:
respect their boundaries (many women are socialized to disregard their own boundaries so it's good to help normalize respecting these)
educate men around you to treat women respectfully (this includes calling out misogynist "jokes")
if you have children, or you interact with children, don't force them to greet you with a hug or kiss (teach children early about consent)
Sometimes I feel like the emphasis on "women's self-defense" as a remedy against assault/rape obscures the real issues because in many cases, the victim actually knows or even trusts the attacker. And the victim is often a minor. So yeah, it's important to be aware of your surroundings and to be wary of strangers. But effective prevention of sexual violence is more about correcting misogynistic social norms, educating children early about boundaries and consent, promoting healthy and responsible dating and sexual behavior, and providing comprehensive support systems for victims.
As a woman, some ways I look out for other women are:
checking how they're getting home
having them let me know when they get home safely
walking them back to their car
(And if I'm the one going home alone I may also ask friends to do the above for me.)
And one time when I noticed a guy making my friends uncomfortable, I physically placed myself in between him and them, and also called out his behavior with our other friends to make sure it doesn't go unnoticed. (He was very drunk at the time and he did apologize the next day.) I think the most important part there was to just not allow that behavior to go unchallenged. It's not necessary to pick a fight in this kind of incident-- I know there are men who feel so angered by harassment like this, they'll go and punch the harasser. But is this really about protecting the victim, or is it about satisfying the man's ego and desire to be the "knight in shining armor"? There are definitely cases when a physical response may be warranted. But it's important to prioritize the safety of the victim and to provide them the support they need.
Personally, I learned martial arts as a teenager. Can I overpower or defeat a larger man in one on one combat? No, but that isn't the point of self defense. I learned a lot of tools to break...
Personally, I learned martial arts as a teenager. Can I overpower or defeat a larger man in one on one combat? No, but that isn't the point of self defense. I learned a lot of tools to break grips, startle, stun, and run. I learned where to hit and how to hit there fast and hard. It's been years since I actively practiced, but some of the instincts are still there when I play-spar with my nephews or partner.
More importantly, women need to be aware of their environment and trust their gut. Walk with your head up, not staring at the ground or your phone. Ideally don't travel alone, especially at night and especially especially in isolated, unfamiliar areas. Have a healthy distrust of strangers and be skeptical of people that approach you with random requests.
These are things the ladies in your life might already know, so giving that advice might risk coming across as a "mansplainer". It might be helpful to them to have you as another pair of eyes: train yourself to look at the world through a feminine lens and see some of the potential dangers. If you see one of your friends or any woman in a rough spot, keep a look out for her and be a lifeline to escape potential predators. If a strange woman ever suddenly acts like she knows you in public, go with it. It's a tactic we sometimes use to escape suspicious men who won't take no for an answer. And as others said, be an advocate for women to other men even when no women are around. Women can't fight misogyny as effectively as men can, since misogynists by default don't respect a woman's opinion.
What women do for self defense varies widely by the woman, the area you live in, and what they're most comfortable with. One of my friends took up kickboxing. Another got a conceal carry permit....
What women do for self defense varies widely by the woman, the area you live in, and what they're most comfortable with. One of my friends took up kickboxing. Another got a conceal carry permit. Personally, I got a German shepherd. She has the dual functionality of being cute and making me feel safer.
I never lived in a rough part of the world, but the city my college was in had a lot of armed muggings (and by that I mean about one every couple weeks). I was naive and from the country so everything in the city after dark was scary. I bought a knife and carried it with me for a while until I realized I'm wasn't at all prepared to stab somebody, even if they were attacking me, so then I got pepper spray. Most women in my classes did the same - pepper spray is legal and cheap where I live. My other strategy was to bike everywhere and to only wear shoes I could run in. I figured if they couldn't catch me, they couldn't attack me.
I sometimes wonder how much of my anxiety about my own safety is artificial and overly paranoid. Women are told to be afraid, and that we are targets just because of our gender. None of my friends has ever had an altercation that led them to use their self defense plan, including me. Its impossible to tell how much of that is because of preparedness and avoiding risky situations (like frat parties or walking through rough neighborhoods at night), and how much is because the fear is overblown.
I know it can't be entirely an overreaction, because I've had two relatives murdered. One in a case of domestic violence that didn't even make the local papers, and the other in a horror movie way by wannabe serial killers. So I know personally that the thing women are most afraid of - being attacked, raped, and murdered by strangers just because you're a woman, does happen. It happens rarely enough that my relative's murder made national news (in a classic "missing white woman" fashion), but that didn't make me feel much better while living in the city.
Apparently The Gift of Fear is an excellent book on the subject if you want more in depth and actionable tips. I've never read it myself (nonfiction is generally not for me), but I know that many people who have read it thought it was a great resource.
I agree. It really helped me feel more in touch with my body and with the world around me. As well as giving me a handy template for how to deal with an incipient stalker, of course!
I agree. It really helped me feel more in touch with my body and with the world around me.
As well as giving me a handy template for how to deal with an incipient stalker, of course!
Women instinctually know that most men have the size and strength to maim or kill them. That's old news. Best thing you can do for women's safety is be an ally. Speak up when other males objectify...
Women instinctually know that most men have the size and strength to maim or kill them. That's old news. Best thing you can do for women's safety is be an ally. Speak up when other males objectify us or use violent, derogatory language about us. Be aware of your own size and proximity and respect boundaries. Don't be afraid to have open conversations about our boundaries if you aren't clear what our "no" or "yes" entails.
Every now and then my husband and I spar (I am a yogi and consider myself strong and fit. I have a lot of experience in hand-to-hand sibling combat and did boxing on and off for a couple years). He is a former body builder and plays pickup basketball three times a week. He is taller though, and has no testosterone issues. Every time we spar I think: "I got him this time!" but I always lose. It is simple biology.
In short, I know I'm fucked if it came down to it. I stay aware of my surroundings, only go places that are necessary for me, and know my exits.
Weapons are more likely to be used against you than be helpful, even firearms. Self defence classes can make you overconfident. My best defence is to keep up my cardio fitness. The number one best...
Weapons are more likely to be used against you than be helpful, even firearms. Self defence classes can make you overconfident. My best defence is to keep up my cardio fitness. The number one best thing is to be able to run away, imo.
There was an article I read once that had spoken to men in prison for attacking women, and most of them said something along the lines of they wanted someone easy. Women who shouted to attract attention and ran were rarely worth chasing. I just hope my flight response would kick in, and not the freeze response which is what I suspect would be my reaction. I hope I don’t ever find out
My experience as a woman is that the majority of men are a lot stronger and a lot faster, not just running but faster at grabbing things. If you shoot from ten feet away, it's not an issue if you...
My experience as a woman is that the majority of men are a lot stronger and a lot faster, not just running but faster at grabbing things. If you shoot from ten feet away, it's not an issue if you are quick to shoot. But if I have a handgun or a knife in my hand within arms reach of my opponent, yes it is reasonable to expect it to be taken from me.
After we adjusted for confounding factors, individuals who were in possession of a gun were 4.46 (95% confidence interval [CI] = 1.16, 17.04) times more likely to be shot in an assault than those not in possession. Individuals who were in possession of a gun were also 4.23 (95% CI = 1.19, 15.13) times more likely to be fatally shot in an assault. In assaults where the victim had at least some chance to resist, individuals who were in possession of a gun were 5.45 (95% CI = 1.01, 29.92) times more likely to be shot.
Which when you read into it, was a terribly done study. They grabbed a control group that was not like their case group at all: They basically took and compared gang/drug activities with the...
Which when you read into it, was a terribly done study.
They grabbed a control group that was not like their case group at all:
However, compared with control participants, shooting case participants were significantly more often Hispanic, more frequently working in high-risk occupations1,2, less educated, and had a greater frequency of prior arrest. At the time of shooting, case participants were also significantly more often involved with alcohol and drugs, outdoors, and closer to areas where more Blacks, Hispanics, and unemployed individuals resided. Case participants were also more likely to be located in areas with less income and more illicit drug trafficking
They basically took and compared gang/drug activities with the general population.
On top of this, this study also doesn't answer the question/statement that if you have a weapon, it's more likely to be used against you. I.E. the firearm or knife is taken from a woman and used against her.
Hi all. One thing I have not seen mentioned yet in this thread is the concept of The Active Bystander. There are many variations that encompass different levels of aggression as well as different...
Hi all. One thing I have not seen mentioned yet in this thread is the concept of The Active Bystander.
There are many variations that encompass different levels of aggression as well as different situations.
Most recently the concept was introduced to me in my hometown due to the influx of violence towards Asian-Americans but some versions of it are specifically geared towards verbal or physical aggression towards women.
While some like this one from the American psychological association break down the concept into different categories such as Interpersonal, Intervention, Communal etc.
In short it gives steps for educating oneself and others, as well as tips and considerations for intervening when an incident is occurring around you.
It is a great concept and definitely worth looking into for anyone who's interested.
I feel like I have to go somewhere to learn. I was in the military pre transition and learned combatives from a man's strength. I have lost so much from not being in and getting rid of...
I feel like I have to go somewhere to learn. I was in the military pre transition and learned combatives from a man's strength. I have lost so much from not being in and getting rid of testosterone that I don't think I can defend myself easily anymore.
Friend, as a cis woman who spent ten years very into martial arts, not being able to defend ourselves easiliy is exactly the situation we face, with or without training. I personally practise...
Friend, as a cis woman who spent ten years very into martial arts, not being able to defend ourselves easiliy is exactly the situation we face, with or without training. I personally practise being aware and avoiding trouble, being prepared to run, guarding my drink. I don't run outside with headphones etc. Situational awareness is the most important.
I have a few techniques I am prepared to use if I am surprised and jumped but they are meant to shock, startle, cause pain and give me a chance to run. I practised jiujitsu and the experience with holds, joint locks, grappling and falling safely is useful and I recommend it. However, it is not enough to win a fight against weight and strength and testosterone. It does help with being surprisingly difficult to hold onto, again offering a chance to run away. I haven't trained Krav Maga myself, but it is supposed to be quite effective. But it's not magic.
The other thing I would advise is be prepared to make noise. Many attackers don't want to be noticed by the wider community. Some women carry a loud whistle or are prepared to scream.
Yes it is. I guarantee the women in your life know most if not everything listed in this thread. I do not understand why a man needs to know the tricks we use to keep ourselves safe. When I...
Also let me know what you think of a man making questions here. Is it uncomfortable?
Yes it is. I guarantee the women in your life know most if not everything listed in this thread. I do not understand why a man needs to know the tricks we use to keep ourselves safe.
When I learned self defence no men were allowed in the area, didn't matter who they were. I feel the same way about discussions around women's safety.
I am well aware that it's not fair that men are by default seen as a potential threat (at least for me, I know many others who feel the same way) but you can't argue with statistics and past experiences of assault.
If the question were, 'what can I do personally to ensure the safety of my friends?' I would respond less defensively for sure.
Right. I forgot to address this in my response but I found this particular question, asked by an alleged male, did make me uncomfortable. Another more neutral topic would've been fine.
Right. I forgot to address this in my response but I found this particular question, asked by an alleged male, did make me uncomfortable. Another more neutral topic would've been fine.
When you say you're asking about women's self-defense as "a way to better inform the women in my life," that sounds mansplainy and strange. Never have I known a woman who needed to be "informed"...
When you say you're asking about women's self-defense as "a way to better inform the women in my life," that sounds mansplainy and strange. Never have I known a woman who needed to be "informed" that men can pose a danger.
Could it have been phrased better?
It's understandable and no big deal, if English is your second language. If it's your native language, then yes.
First and foremost I think the best thing you can do for women in your life and in general is be an advocate. You hear other guys "locker room talk" call that shit out as disgusting.
You also have to be careful how you encourage people to help themselves, you don't know trauma they've already been through and your advice may end up being victim blaming.
I dont go out at night alone, I don't go to crowded places alone. I know my exits, I dress for what will fit in for the occasion essentially try to blend into the background. You learn the types of groups to avoid and you avoid the hell out of them. No drinks left alone, keys between fingers in parking lots.
I dont worry about weapons much because any person especially men who want to overpower me can and will get the weapon and use it on me. Same reason I don't do martial arts for self defense. Just biologically speaking men will overpower me and I don't want false confidence. That's not to say do don't these things for yourself but be realistic in what they can and can't do for you.
Hope this helps.
Since you mentioned you're looking for information, a few thoughts --
The first thing you have to do is assess the situation. If it's a robbery, just give the assailant your stuff - none of it is worth dying for. In some situations, you can de-escalate by backing down, running away, apologizing. Sometimes, however, someone has already decided to hurt you. In these situations, your odds of survival go up dramatically if you fight back.
If you've made the decision to fight back, you need to do so as aggressively as possible. Smash their nose. Dig your thumbs into their eyes. Fight like a wounded badger. And when you get the chance, run like hell.
For training - the right training is very helpful. Something along the lines of krav maga - practical self-defense training - is usually pretty good. Unfortunately, a lot of self-defense courses marketed to women are garbage. To your point, traditional martial arts (e.g. karate) are only barely better than nothing.
Weapons are, for the most part, out of the scope of this comment because the majority of them need training to be used effectively. One possible exception is a push dagger, which, if you're going to carry a knife for self-defense without extensive training, should be what you choose.
For all of this - training, weapons, whatever - the goal isn't necessarily to win the fight without being scratched. As you may know, knife fights are nasty business. There's a saying in the tactical community - "the loser dies on the street, the winner dies on the way to the hospital." But if you're facing the risk of death anyway, the goal is to shock the assailant and demonstrate that you are not easy prey. Many predatory men will back off, decide the risk is not worth it, etc.
Sorry, sort of a rambling post that didn't really address your question re: tools and weapons - but it's hard to talk about that stuff in a vacuum.
Krav maga is basically make believe though, I wouldn’t recommend it. Useful martial arts must be pressure testable, and you can’t realistically pressure test Krav Maga without crippling your partner.
That's not really true. There are many elements of krav maga you can spar with. And, for what it's worth, which is it? Basically make believe or so dangerous that you can't test it without crippling your partner? It can't be both!
But more importantly - if you were going to attend 5 classes of any one fighting system, I'd recommend krav maga, no question. The mindset alone (rapid, aggressive strikes until the fight is over, one way or another) is extremely helpful to people who aren't familiar with violence.
Is it as good as a solid foundation of several years training Muay thai, BJJ, and takedowns with consistent sparring and ring time? Of course not. But that's not really a fair comparison.
For what it's worth, I am not a krav maga guy. But I'm familiar with the system and it's as something most people are familiar with and would know how to find.
There’s no contradiction here — the techniques are dangerous enough that you can’t drill them under real pressure, which means you will only ever have an academic knowledge of how to employ them. You can pretend to do them but it’s not the same thing as doing them.
If you were going to attend 5 classes of self defence, you could do literally anything and get the exact same result — there is no useful 5 class self defence system. The only thing you may gain is a false sense of confidence which might honestly be more dangerous than no knowledge at all.
I'm assuming you're a practitioner of some sort of martial art? I'm saying so because this is a pretty standard mindset for someone who's training something routinely. And there's definitely some truth to it.
But from the tactical perspective, it's not wholly accurate. As I said above, mindset is the most important thing, and you can learn to meet an attack with overwhelming violence of action and palm strikes in 5 sessions of a focused practical self défense course. I've seen it happen - with checkout exercises against full impact suits to demonstrate it.
Yes, I’ve been training for some 30 years in various martial arts (BJJ, TKD, boxing, kickboxing), and I’m fairly familiar with these kinds of short self defence courses. My wife has taken them, and some of my gyms have hosted them in the past. I still have to disagree — 5 sessions of anything isn’t enough. To make it happen live against a real threat, you need instincts and muscle memory, which realistically means at least months of training and hard sparring. I’ve even seen fighters with years of experience freeze up in a real fight.
A bit off topic but if you ever find yourself in a locker room with men talking degradingly about women, I would report it to the front desk immediately. I have avidly played sports for over 40 years now, and have been a "gym rat" that entire time, so I have a lot of experience with men's locker rooms. I have not once been in one where men were talking in a gross or degrading manner about women. In my experience, it is not normal conversation for a locker room, and so I'm sure the management would be very interested if someone ever came along trying to normalize it.
Good on you for caring about the safety of the women in your life, and good luck.
It's a bit more than that. It's called locker room, not just for it's "heavy male environment" but also to give it a "every man does it" vibe. It's meant to give the idea that without women around, men can be their "natural" misogynistic self. It's used by men who want to harm women as a way to "normalize" that harm and make it sounds completely normal and common.
I suppose it depends on personality. I'm fairly outgoing, and I've been going to the same gym long enough and seen the same faces every day that it would be weird not to talk to each other. But yeah, if it's not a light, friendly vibe, the second most common in my experience is no talking with the "I acknowledge your existence" nod in passing lol. It's a real shame that "locker room talk" is the common slang given to derogatory comments about women in men's spaces, as it couldn't be further from the truth.
I'm curious as to where that term comes from, since I've had the same experience as you in locker room gyms. I also play beer league hockey, and while there is talking in the locker room, it's never derogatory towards women or anything like that. Sometimes we'll call out something shitty that our opponent did, but none of us are standing there bashing women or anything like that.
I think overall, that kind of environment is more about the people you choose to surround yourself with rather than the location.
I hope people understood I put it in heavy quotes as to indicate my understanding it's not normal male behavior but it is a phrase used to normalize inappropriate male behavior. Also men are not the only ones to hurting women, and I do feel like my original comment came off that way. So I do want to acknowledge my focus was on that but sometimes the most dangerous people to women are other women who lure girls into dangerous situations and that should also be acknowledged. Love bombing from males and females should be seen as a red flag.
Now to get back to your question about where the term comes from my guess is I suspect two places - one media particularly movies where locker rooms are potraid as raucous and raunchy places.
Secondly like the other user ix-ix said used by the people who are perpetrators of the behaviors to try and normalize their behaviors.
I mean you just have to go to a 2016 campaign to hear the term thrown around related to a grab them by their phrase.
Ahh yes, this is a good way of describing the term. It's just a shame that a term was chosen that is also often an important, positive place for either personal fitness (in the case of a gym locker room where men don't even talk to each other) or camaraderie (sports locker rooms). However, it's also a same that such a term even has to exist. The behavior described by the term is disgusting.
How to help keep women in your life safe:
Sometimes I feel like the emphasis on "women's self-defense" as a remedy against assault/rape obscures the real issues because in many cases, the victim actually knows or even trusts the attacker. And the victim is often a minor. So yeah, it's important to be aware of your surroundings and to be wary of strangers. But effective prevention of sexual violence is more about correcting misogynistic social norms, educating children early about boundaries and consent, promoting healthy and responsible dating and sexual behavior, and providing comprehensive support systems for victims.
As a woman, some ways I look out for other women are:
(And if I'm the one going home alone I may also ask friends to do the above for me.)
And one time when I noticed a guy making my friends uncomfortable, I physically placed myself in between him and them, and also called out his behavior with our other friends to make sure it doesn't go unnoticed. (He was very drunk at the time and he did apologize the next day.) I think the most important part there was to just not allow that behavior to go unchallenged. It's not necessary to pick a fight in this kind of incident-- I know there are men who feel so angered by harassment like this, they'll go and punch the harasser. But is this really about protecting the victim, or is it about satisfying the man's ego and desire to be the "knight in shining armor"? There are definitely cases when a physical response may be warranted. But it's important to prioritize the safety of the victim and to provide them the support they need.
Personally, I learned martial arts as a teenager. Can I overpower or defeat a larger man in one on one combat? No, but that isn't the point of self defense. I learned a lot of tools to break grips, startle, stun, and run. I learned where to hit and how to hit there fast and hard. It's been years since I actively practiced, but some of the instincts are still there when I play-spar with my nephews or partner.
More importantly, women need to be aware of their environment and trust their gut. Walk with your head up, not staring at the ground or your phone. Ideally don't travel alone, especially at night and especially especially in isolated, unfamiliar areas. Have a healthy distrust of strangers and be skeptical of people that approach you with random requests.
These are things the ladies in your life might already know, so giving that advice might risk coming across as a "mansplainer". It might be helpful to them to have you as another pair of eyes: train yourself to look at the world through a feminine lens and see some of the potential dangers. If you see one of your friends or any woman in a rough spot, keep a look out for her and be a lifeline to escape potential predators. If a strange woman ever suddenly acts like she knows you in public, go with it. It's a tactic we sometimes use to escape suspicious men who won't take no for an answer. And as others said, be an advocate for women to other men even when no women are around. Women can't fight misogyny as effectively as men can, since misogynists by default don't respect a woman's opinion.
What women do for self defense varies widely by the woman, the area you live in, and what they're most comfortable with. One of my friends took up kickboxing. Another got a conceal carry permit. Personally, I got a German shepherd. She has the dual functionality of being cute and making me feel safer.
I never lived in a rough part of the world, but the city my college was in had a lot of armed muggings (and by that I mean about one every couple weeks). I was naive and from the country so everything in the city after dark was scary. I bought a knife and carried it with me for a while until I realized I'm wasn't at all prepared to stab somebody, even if they were attacking me, so then I got pepper spray. Most women in my classes did the same - pepper spray is legal and cheap where I live. My other strategy was to bike everywhere and to only wear shoes I could run in. I figured if they couldn't catch me, they couldn't attack me.
I sometimes wonder how much of my anxiety about my own safety is artificial and overly paranoid. Women are told to be afraid, and that we are targets just because of our gender. None of my friends has ever had an altercation that led them to use their self defense plan, including me. Its impossible to tell how much of that is because of preparedness and avoiding risky situations (like frat parties or walking through rough neighborhoods at night), and how much is because the fear is overblown.
I know it can't be entirely an overreaction, because I've had two relatives murdered. One in a case of domestic violence that didn't even make the local papers, and the other in a horror movie way by wannabe serial killers. So I know personally that the thing women are most afraid of - being attacked, raped, and murdered by strangers just because you're a woman, does happen. It happens rarely enough that my relative's murder made national news (in a classic "missing white woman" fashion), but that didn't make me feel much better while living in the city.
Apparently The Gift of Fear is an excellent book on the subject if you want more in depth and actionable tips. I've never read it myself (nonfiction is generally not for me), but I know that many people who have read it thought it was a great resource.
The book is excellent - and not just for that, but for teaching you to listen to your gut more generally.
I agree. It really helped me feel more in touch with my body and with the world around me.
As well as giving me a handy template for how to deal with an incipient stalker, of course!
Women instinctually know that most men have the size and strength to maim or kill them. That's old news. Best thing you can do for women's safety is be an ally. Speak up when other males objectify us or use violent, derogatory language about us. Be aware of your own size and proximity and respect boundaries. Don't be afraid to have open conversations about our boundaries if you aren't clear what our "no" or "yes" entails.
Every now and then my husband and I spar (I am a yogi and consider myself strong and fit. I have a lot of experience in hand-to-hand sibling combat and did boxing on and off for a couple years). He is a former body builder and plays pickup basketball three times a week. He is taller though, and has no testosterone issues. Every time we spar I think: "I got him this time!" but I always lose. It is simple biology.
In short, I know I'm fucked if it came down to it. I stay aware of my surroundings, only go places that are necessary for me, and know my exits.
Weapons are more likely to be used against you than be helpful, even firearms. Self defence classes can make you overconfident. My best defence is to keep up my cardio fitness. The number one best thing is to be able to run away, imo.
There was an article I read once that had spoken to men in prison for attacking women, and most of them said something along the lines of they wanted someone easy. Women who shouted to attract attention and ran were rarely worth chasing. I just hope my flight response would kick in, and not the freeze response which is what I suspect would be my reaction. I hope I don’t ever find out
This is stated a lot, but where does this info come from?
My experience as a woman is that the majority of men are a lot stronger and a lot faster, not just running but faster at grabbing things. If you shoot from ten feet away, it's not an issue if you are quick to shoot. But if I have a handgun or a knife in my hand within arms reach of my opponent, yes it is reasonable to expect it to be taken from me.
Probably this
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2759797/#
Which when you read into it, was a terribly done study.
They grabbed a control group that was not like their case group at all:
They basically took and compared gang/drug activities with the general population.
On top of this, this study also doesn't answer the question/statement that if you have a weapon, it's more likely to be used against you. I.E. the firearm or knife is taken from a woman and used against her.
Hi all. One thing I have not seen mentioned yet in this thread is the concept of The Active Bystander.
There are many variations that encompass different levels of aggression as well as different situations.
Most recently the concept was introduced to me in my hometown due to the influx of violence towards Asian-Americans but some versions of it are specifically geared towards verbal or physical aggression towards women.
Some like this one from [Cambridge University] (https://www.breakingthesilence.cam.ac.uk/prevention-support/be-active-bystander) are geared towards campus life.
While some like this one from the American psychological association break down the concept into different categories such as Interpersonal, Intervention, Communal etc.
In short it gives steps for educating oneself and others, as well as tips and considerations for intervening when an incident is occurring around you.
It is a great concept and definitely worth looking into for anyone who's interested.
I feel like I have to go somewhere to learn. I was in the military pre transition and learned combatives from a man's strength. I have lost so much from not being in and getting rid of testosterone that I don't think I can defend myself easily anymore.
Friend, as a cis woman who spent ten years very into martial arts, not being able to defend ourselves easiliy is exactly the situation we face, with or without training. I personally practise being aware and avoiding trouble, being prepared to run, guarding my drink. I don't run outside with headphones etc. Situational awareness is the most important.
I have a few techniques I am prepared to use if I am surprised and jumped but they are meant to shock, startle, cause pain and give me a chance to run. I practised jiujitsu and the experience with holds, joint locks, grappling and falling safely is useful and I recommend it. However, it is not enough to win a fight against weight and strength and testosterone. It does help with being surprisingly difficult to hold onto, again offering a chance to run away. I haven't trained Krav Maga myself, but it is supposed to be quite effective. But it's not magic.
The other thing I would advise is be prepared to make noise. Many attackers don't want to be noticed by the wider community. Some women carry a loud whistle or are prepared to scream.
Thanks for the info, I have only had one incident as an adult and someone else stepped in as I froze when I couldn't move from the wall.
Yes it is. I guarantee the women in your life know most if not everything listed in this thread. I do not understand why a man needs to know the tricks we use to keep ourselves safe.
When I learned self defence no men were allowed in the area, didn't matter who they were. I feel the same way about discussions around women's safety.
I am well aware that it's not fair that men are by default seen as a potential threat (at least for me, I know many others who feel the same way) but you can't argue with statistics and past experiences of assault.
If the question were, 'what can I do personally to ensure the safety of my friends?' I would respond less defensively for sure.
Right. I forgot to address this in my response but I found this particular question, asked by an alleged male, did make me uncomfortable. Another more neutral topic would've been fine.
When you say you're asking about women's self-defense as "a way to better inform the women in my life," that sounds mansplainy and strange. Never have I known a woman who needed to be "informed" that men can pose a danger.
It's understandable and no big deal, if English is your second language. If it's your native language, then yes.
Love you, man, and hug & thanks. :)