Is this the ennui all the kids are talking about? Angst? What's wrong with me.
I've tried before to get input on this, but online it doesn't go anywhere and IRL people don't seem to understand. Thought about putting it in the /~finance area, but I don't know that it's really a finance issue, plus things there seem to be wider-scale financial in focus. And there's no /~advice page, so here it is:
I feel like I should be making more money lol. Now immediately, that sounds greedy or either capitalistic/anticapitalistic, depending—I know it does, but hear me out. I have a great job that pays ok but not great, and tons of free time; in my mind, and if I'm being honest in my field, chasing a 5% raise is low ROI and low likelihood of even happening. There is little room for vertical movement, but enough security that it seems crazy to make any changes. Post-college, I have had a pretty varied career background, I am very good at editing, research, training, tech, etc. but I am not an "idea person" and I don't have a lot of marketability or self-promotion ability, it seems like (also no coding abilities, which is always a suggestion; I've tried, believe me, but my brain won't do it). I'd rather edit your book than write one of my own, not because I'm afraid of rejection or can't commit to doing something/run out of steam, but because the steam just isn't there.
I don't feel the need to change careers, but I am also feeling super unfulfilled. I've worked on doing things to try and fill that gap, hobbies/other pursuits/etc, but I am haunted by the fact that I am using such a small part of my bandwidth, when it seems like I could be outputting at 2x or 3x and earning similarly. I've applied for contract work, freelance, all that stuff, but it is spotty pay at best—what I want, short of a medieval patron/wealthy benefactor, is a second job I could do on top of this one. Which leads me to side-hustle-type rabbit holes on starting an Etsy shop/a YouTube channel/a Patreon page. But when it comes down to it, I don't actually feel any passion about doing any of those things, and I can't get a narrow enough niche figured out to even come up with a potential audience. I've avoided specializing because I wanted to do all kinds of things, and now I've done that, and I feel like maybe it was a mistake. I just want to have the resources available to do what I want. Bills are paid, life is good, but I feel like I am spinning my wheels: even writing this out is like a roller coaster of feeling shame that I'm not satisfied or that I'm ungrateful, then being frustrated I can't make it happen the way I want, on my own.
Because see, I didn't say I deserve more money; I want the opportunity to earn more money. There are a ton of things I would be perfectly happy doing for a living, or for a second job. And more money might not even help—if I was a trust fund baby I be in a similar situation. But what the fuck should I be doing then? I guess what I really want is for someone to say "Hey, I need this job done, I'll give you $XXk a year to do it" like it's 1980, and then I know I am serving a purpose? And I wouldn't feel guilty about time left over, because the job is Done. But part of me is afraid that, even if that somehow magically materialized, I would feel the exact same way I do now.
so what do tilderinos?
First, welcome to Tildes! Nice opening post I must say as there is much to explore in what you write. Also in what you might not have included. My initial impression is that you are right, this has very little to do with finance other than that you feel you could do more and earn more. But the latter, from your writing, doesn't seem to be the main thing on your mind.
This stood out to me. Was it always a choice, or does being a generalist come “naturally” to you? And those side hustles, are these things you start out being enthusiastic about initially? And here we come to the part where I am not sure if you are unintentionally leaving things out or that I am just reading too much between the lines. But generally speaking, how well do you manage these side projects and work in general?
Do you approach these things in an orderly planned fashion or a lot of these a spur of the moment kind of deal?
I have a reason I am asking this, but I don't to steer you anywhere or draw any conclusions before having a few more answers in this area.
Finally, a lot of people don't know this. But the saying we all know about “jacks of all trades” is actually only half of a quote.
Worth keeping in mind ;)
Thanks so much! I definitely didn't get quite as detailed as maybe would have been helpful, as I fear for a number of reasons that this could be easily traced to my actual real-life employment haha.
Generalizing instead of specializing has always been the way I've done things; some tasks come easily & I enjoy them (writing, editing); some are more challenging but rewarding (guitar, artistic pursuits); I wouldn't mind doing any of them 40 hours a week, but also can't imagine picking just one. There's sometimes a tapering off in my level of interest, definitely, but it's not really like an ADHD-style disillusionment, more that I so much enjoy the process of learning & getting better at something, compared to being pretty good at it & feeling "done." As far as managing side items, the more plates I am spinning in the air the better I feel about myself; if I'm being honest, I haven't found a max yet, and everything gets done well.
I would say for me it's an 80/20 split between planned out & spontaneous; I like the research part of something new almost as much as actually doing the thing, to the point where I can't imagine focusing on any one thing.
The additional context on that quote is fantastic : )
Thanks for expanding on your post. Turns out I might have been reading too much between the lines after all. I was indeed curious about things in the ADHD corner, as with ADHD people also often encounter similar things. But then certainly in a less structured and slightly more chaotic fashion as you seem to be describing right now ;)
But, it is frequently enough, also a blind spot for many people who under different circumstances might have been diagnosed. I at least wanted to explore that direction a little, just in case.
What comes across here again is that you currently are likely doing a job doing just one thing. While you clearly enjoy doing a multitude of things. Fulfilling that desire through hobbies can work. But, work time is the longest block of time in a day we spend doing one thing (besides sleeping).
In your initial post, you describe trying to narrow into niches, but at the same time you do seem to realize that just doing one thing at the time is not something you get enjoyment out.
I don't have the perfect career advice for you. But to me it seems, that if you do start looking, that you should look for the sort of job where you do get to apply a more wide variety of skills.
This is much easier said than done, I can very much relate to that.
Although my predicament is in IT and coding related, so not something I would make you happy with, even I had the answer there.
Anyway, what I am trying to say is that maybe if spinning multiple plates in the air makes you happy, then maybe you should focus on spinning multiple plates?
It is frustrating because generalist are often valued a lot, but there aren't a lot of careers that are an obvious fit. Then there are careers that are often claimed to be for generalists but where I feel the bar for "skill" is often a lot lower than you seem to indicate here.
A few things that do come to mind though if you ever go exploring and look for greener pastures:
Just some ideas out the top of my head based on various things you mentioned. Of course, I could also be completely off the mark, figured it is worth sharing.
One other thing. Part of being able to pick up a lot of things is that you always see what more is possible. But also the realization that some of that you will not achieve. Because that would mean doing one thing and never picking up all the other things with just as much potential. This can be, and from what I read here is, very frustrating to deal with. Which is likely also somewhat of a balance, finding the right amount of things to do at once and well enough without being bored or feel like you are not reaching your potential in one of them.
Also, this is just my personal view on things, it helps to not strive for being happy all the time. What I mean by that is that happiness only exists as one end of a spectrum. You simply can't always exist in one end of a spectrum, as then the feeling looses meaning. In fact, it likely is not achievable at all, so a lot of people get frustrated by that and end up more on the negative end of that spectrum.
Instead, I try to aim for general contentment as my primary goal.
With you that might more apply to how much value you place on mastering things I suppose.
This turned in quite a lengthy response, that I feel might have drifted in various places. I hope it still provides some use to you.
Gosh, thanks so much. It is refreshing to hear anything besides "well what's wrong with what you're doing now?" or "Geez isn't it enough already?" And yeah, I was pretty convinced I had ADHD, mainly due to the reasons you mentioned, but it turns out I do not; honestly a diagnosis would have been a relief, but I'm not giving up.
Those are great suggestions & areas I've looked into (& applied, unsuccessfully thus far), so I think you are right on the money. I've heard suggestions before around consulting, since it's problem-based it seems like there's always something new happening, but it also seems like a tough nut to crack entry-wise; I don't know any consultants, unfortunately. Your advice is super resonant, though; I've run into that thought before, where it's like, well, I am not going to do this until I'm Olympics- or Oscars- or whatever-level, because then I would have to do it all day every day, and then when would I do everything else?
It's so funny (although not surprising I guess considering where we are) that people replying are all IT/devs—for a long time I thought that would be the perfect solution for me, tons of my friends are software or software adjacent, and I've tried multiple times but I'm just not a math person. Thanks again.
I explicitly didn't mention consultancy, as the term itself is such a nothingburger. It is such a generic term that it can mean anything where someone is hired as an outsider to do “something” within a company.
For example. According to my job title I am a consultant, but at the same time I work as part of a team for a company so you might as well call me a contractor, external hire, etc.
I do happen to actually be fairly good at a broad range of technical related skills and am valued for that. Colleagues of me, who have the same job title as me and work for the same company on the other hand, do nothing of what I do and more or less just sell pretty words. I am being a bit overly cynical and hyperbolic here but being hired as a “type Y consultant” in my company could mean two different things.
That, I feel, is more of a result of the demographic audience on Tildes.
You don't need to be good at math to be good in IT. You don't even need to be good at math for a large chunk of developer jobs. That is one of those myths keeps floating around, but isn't true for a large majority of technically challenging work you could do in IT.
What you do need to be good at though is reading stuff, digging through information and generally liking a lot of trial and error. And writing, programming for the most part isn't complex math, it is structured writing.
Besides, half of what I do isn't programming anyway. It is understanding the surrounding platforms, fitting things into building blocks, etc.
But to get back to programming, I feel that half of the people saying that you need math also do it from a bit of a biased perspective:
This is an excerpt from the introduction chapter of the book Eloquent JavaScript. I am not suggesting you pick up Javascript and learn it (although you are free to do so), but the intro is worth a read.
Having said all that, I am content at where I am now. But I also on a regular basis do struggle with the question of "Is this all I want to do, and if not what else?".
Besides, not everyone needs to work in IT. It is just that if your wide range of skills and interests falls within the range of IT it is much easier to carve out a little corner based on those interests. Compared to applying a wide variety of skills elsewhere.
Something I didn’t realize until well into my adulthood that I wish I understood as a child: there are so many things in life worth doing that are free. There are so many in fact, that even if you didn’t have anything beyond just the knowledge that you won’t go hungry tomorrow, and that the doctor will take care of you if you get hurt or sick, you would literally never run out of stuff to do, even if you never earned a single penny beyond what it took to secure your economic situation, and even if you lived for 10,000 years.
It makes me curious: what do you feel like you’re not able to do?
It's not really that there's anything I'm not able to do (except figure out why I feel this way). It just feels like I should be able to at this point pick one or two of those things and make decent money doing them, I think.
Like traveling is at the top of a lot of people's lists for life goals, I think—I'd like to do that, and I have the time + bandwidth to earn enough to be able to do it (at least I believe I do), but currently it's a wishlist, not something I can actually afford. So there's this gap between where I am and where I feel like I could be, vs. just wishing I was farther ahead, or my parents were rich or something.
Well, it is impossible for me to say why you feel the way you do. But I can tell you that growing up, people put a lot of pressure on us. And in my opinion, it leads to most of us feeling like if we don’t have ”enough stuff” to show for our time (and it doesn’t even need to be material possessions, it can include stuff like credentials, prestige, reputation, photographs, literally anything that can be considered “evidence” that you did something that “mattered”), then it means we’re somehow failing. But I have to tell you: it’s just not true. And no matter how much money you make, if you can’t figure out why a thing didn’t make you happy unless you can show somebody a photo of you doing it, then you will never find the way out of these thought loops. I promise you.
I guess I'm in an opposite situation; I make good money but I have a lot of interests and time to do none of them. But I desperately want out of upper management and to be a solo contributor that solves mathematical or programming challenges. I'd even take a pay cut if it gave me enough time to teach at a local college.
Not to mentioned how awful job hunting is right now. It's hundreds of applications hoping to get contacted and then being ghosted. Networking is supposed to be the solution but who has time for that?
Lol we should do a Parent Trap : ) That counts as networking, right?
It is definitely frustrating when you can basically exactly visualize what you'd like to be doing, but can't make it happen—even worse when there is probably someone out there looking to hire for exactly that.
Deal!
It's tricky, because like you I think of all these side hustles/projects that could scratch the itch. But then I look at the hours in a week and realize there's no where to fit it in.
Edit: I think this is the year is happens though. Some incentives to stay have hit the end of the lifetime so it's right about when I told myself I would start looking in earnest.
Yeah, stories like yours are what makes me think I'd be feeling this way no matter how much I was making. Well good luck to us both this year!
I’m not entirely sure if it’s the same thing, but I believe I might have had similar feelings.
In my case, I’m paid pretty well, with a day job writing software. Even so, as you’ve said, I see those around me doing side hustles and the like to maximize their potential which makes me feel like I should be doing this too, because if I’m not it’s a massive waste of potential given the resources, stability, and time and energy I have available to me. These are things that so many dream of having, so if I don’t take advantage of them and instead spend leisure time playing games or engaging in other non-productive activities, I’m squandering my situation. My sense of this is perhaps elevated by experiences had by coming from a poor background — the opportunities I have today are something that my past self wanted but didn’t have. It’s conflicting… part of me is saying to be satisfied and happy with what I have while another is insistent that if I do that, I’m taking my situation for granted and doing my past self (and by extension, others like my past self) an injustice.
Also as you’ve noted though, finding side hustles that feel like a good investment in comparison to full-time employment is difficult. In my case I have interests/passions (maybe too many), but figuring out where and how to channel them is not straightforward.
I have yet to find a solution myself, but I figure doing something is better than being paralyzed by indecision, and so as of the past 6mo or so in my spare time I’ve started pursuing interests that I think might have some potential and hoping that they eventually become somewhat profitable. This is really just shooting in the dark though, and so I’m also keen to hear how others have dealt this very privileged problem.
I've been the person with a fulltime job and an evening/weekend side-hustle.
But, having done this for a couple years, it's been (of my own choosing) very time-consuming and pretty draining. I've only really kept it up to such a degree with a specific savings goal in mind.
In that sense, sure it's maximizing that potential. But admittedly at the cost of other potentials, like my social life, happiness/contentment, and at moments even health. (I've been really looking forward to scaling back, tbh)
I guess what I try to ask myself is: what is the point of working (so much)? In another lens, what of my potentials am I trying to maximize?
For me, stability and security for sure; not just savings, but also knowing if I lost my job, I'd have a little income still. Also, affording the opportunities and experiences I'd like to achieve. My side work has also kept me tied to a field I enjoy but otherwise don't work in, so there's an element of fullfilment.
I don't know if any of this is helpful, and maybe Im reading too much into your comment about seeing others doing it, but I'd wonder not only what are the reasons you feel the need to find a side hustle, but also are those reasons a part of you you'd like to foster?
Interesting sidenote, but I grew up not poor-poor, but money was tight at times and I absolutely felt poorer than most of my peers. I'm quite confident it's been part of my strong drive to build a sense of security.
Stability and security are big ones. My mind is probably the most at ease as it’s ever been during adulthood thanks to where I’m currently at, but there are still fears. For instance, what happens if I get hit with a severe case of long covid which leaves my mental faculties ravaged or somehow lose use of my hands, making doing my job a struggle? I’ve got a mortgage and household bills to pay, and if my income were to vanish my runway would be quite finite. There’s this looming sense that the other shoe is going to drop and I won’t be ready for it. I’m saving where I can, but something on the side could bolster that significantly.
The other thing is that I’m growing a bit tired of the majority of my waking life being put toward the pursuit of the goals of others. Achieving FIRE sounds very appealing, because it’d allow me to split up my time and energy however I prefer to without regard to profitability. Naturally, the likelihood of that happening is higher if I’m maximizing what resources are free currently.
Yeah, it sounds like we are in the same boat, for sure. I think the twist that makes it feel so tricky is that coming from a less-privileged childhood/background to a relatively-privileged present situation puts the nature of this question into really sharp contrast. I dunno about you, but I feel like seeing everyone around me work themselves so hard as a kid made me believe I should be doing that, too, and that if I'm not I am doing something wrong.
I've done pretty much the same thing! I figure what's the worst that can happen, and while I feel a bit busier I can't say I feel a lot better about myself, despite that. Honestly it's encouraging that it's not just me in the world feeling like this, as you are prob the first person I've talked to who seemed to feel similarly.
Thanks for posting this. So much of what you wrote resonates with me. Two
thoughtspersonal rambles related to different aspects of your post:I did the crazy startup thing for ten years, making good money, really putting my heart and soul into it. Then it got weird in ways that killed my desire to participate in it, and now I feel like those ten years were wasted. Sure I developed some useful skills, but I feel like I have nothing to show for it. Now I am focusing on people and things that are important to me and looking for a job that is just a job so I have the time to pursue those things. I'm not telling you not to climb the ladder, just saying there might not be anything up there worth having.
I too consider myself a generalist and like solving new problems and connecting things at the edge of disciplines. John Brunner wrote a book called Stand on Zanzibar whose main character has being a generalist as a job, and I have always been jealous of that. I am job hunting right now and it's been hard, partly because I'm looking for less demanding work, but partly because I can do so many different things. I was able to be a generalist at my last job because I had been there since it was small and grew big, so I could get involved where and when I was needed and lots of people knew they could rely on me for things. But it's really hard to convincingly explain that in an interview. So, just be aware of that if you start job hunting.
Thanks for your insight—this is definitely looking like a country mouse/city mouse situation; I guess when you don't know where to aim your drive, your drive doesn't go away. I've definitely encountered what you're describing secondly there, and the period of time between starting work and gaining enough trust to actually do any good is exasperating lol
Startups are an area I can really only dream about as I don't really know anyone in those circles, but that seems like the dream for me: someone has an idea, they need a million things done, I can do a million things for them, it's perfect. Literally it's all just learning+ process + results + moving on, right? Am I describing it reasonably correctly haha
There are a ton of things that need done. My startup was a little different because we had consulting that was immediately profitable. We also had some regulatory compliance stuff we had to do right away that I was experienced with.
Usually there's a really lean time before the first round of funding (or even after, if it is small) where there is almost no money and people are working for equity, and its often just a few people doing everything. During that time, what "everything" means can depend a lot on what the startup si, but I think there is a niche there for somebody with writing and soft skills to work alongside somebody who has the idea. One other way to think about this is: if there are just one or two people doing the core work, what can you take off their plate so that they can focus on their core work?
I went back and re-read your original post, and based on it, I think moonlighting at early stage startups could be an interesting path. But you should treat it like a hobby not a moneymaker because most startups don't make it. I would only do this with people you think you can trust. If you see evidence of them being untrustworthy elsewhere, get out, because if the money does come along (e.g. an exit) they may screw you if they can. In theory, contracts promising equity could protect you, but lawyers are expensive and lawsuits are soul sucking and a roll of the dice.
If you live somewhere where there is a startup accelerator or other tech organization, you could start by going to their events and meeting people. I live in Pittsburgh which has a very healthy tech scene, so we have things like Pittsburgh Technology Council and AlphaLab.
Another place where this generalist skill set might resonate would be as a research assistant / coordinator at a university. There are a lot of administration tasks that go with grants, so the faculty will carve sometimes out a bit of the money to pay someone to administer them. This might even be part time. This could be a gateway into helping with the research itself, e.g. by running experiments, editing papers, etc. I'm not quite sure how you break into that kind of thing if you are not part of a university community, but mining your network for university contacts or attending university open houses are probably places to start.
The anxieties displayed in your post say that you might benefit from seeing a therapist, and I would heavily recommend doing so.
Being miserable despite things going ok os an indicator of a problem with the thought process itself, and I speak from experience. A therapist will hopefully be able to help you change your perspective and adopt a healthier way of thinking.
In the Schema school of therapy, they would say you have a strong demanding parent voice. It's a voice that keeps telling you to do more and more and more
I'm all too familiar with this particular line of thought :) Therapy has helped me silence it and be able to look at, and enjoy, the good things on life (though the healing journey is far from over yet)
Just over a year in! I feel like that's when I started realizing I even felt this way—but yeah, part of this has been discovering that it's not something I have to fulfill to feel good about myself. I believe I've gotten to the point where I can acknowledge the progress I've made, I know the reasons I want to do more, and I feel pretty good about them. I didn't mean for it to come across like I'm beating myself up about not doing enough, or being bored—but I also want to be sure I'm not just being defensive about it haha. Because it sounds like you know what you were talking about and would be able to spot the things you're describing, and my thought process could definitely do with some improvement! I looked up the demanding parent schema mode, and dang you are spot on; that is what I hear in my head all day. Not surprising since I had those parents in real life lol.
So having been through it, how would you recommend I approach that? Because I would like to know, for sure, if this is something I actually want to pursue underneath, or if it's some maladaptive thing that I myself wouldn't care about.
Schema Therapy is honestly a life changer, it gives names to so many problems, allowing one to do something about it.
In the language of Schema, there are things called Maladaptive Schemas, or lifetraps. One of said lifetraps is called the Unrelenting Standards trap, wherein a person pretty much does not believe in the phrase "good enough"
A lot more can be read here https://schematherapysociety.org/Schema-Therapy
Now keep in mind that I'm just a dude who's going through therapy, not some sort therapist.
The thing I would recommend (especially of you have the funds for it) is therapy. There's pretty much no reason not to see a therapist. They'll b3 able to help you reason about your turbulent thoughts and work through whatever it is that's causing your "Must. Do. More" problem.
Therapy aside, I Recommend This Book, and I'm sure you could find a few pdfs hanging around the internet of you aren't the online shopping sort.
This is a sepf-help book is written by the founder of the Schema Therapy, though released in 1996, it's really amazing. It was recommended by my therapist initially, and I found it really Great.