I'm only going to speak from my own perspective but I definitely don't buy vinyl for the audiophile qualities he spends a lot of time arguing. It's about owning a physical copy of something I...
I'm only going to speak from my own perspective but I definitely don't buy vinyl for the audiophile qualities he spends a lot of time arguing. It's about owning a physical copy of something I love, and it's about the collecting itself.
Also, as far as the air quality thing goes, he plays the record with the top open... who does that? There's a reason almost all modern and most older record players have closing lids - to isolate the record from the environment. This might ostensibly be about keeping dust off of the vinyl, but it absolutely limits air exchange from any "off-gassing". PVC has a molecular weight about 1,000x that of air. I'd be willing to bet if he mounted that air quality monitor above the record player with the lid closed, it wouldn't even register. It's a better argument for occasionally wiping down the inside of your record player than not owning vinyl. I'm not going to spend the money to test it myself but it's some food for thought.
Owning/collecting vinyl is about truly owning your music. Digital storage media stop working over time too. Solid state drives have a lifespan of a decade or so, whereas I play vinyls from my step-grandpa's collection from the 40s and 50s with no issues. Some of the records I have are over 70 years old! No record company can pull the music from my vinyl because of contracts or licensing. I can't lose my entire collection because Spotify goes belly up. Taylor Swift can't change the lyrics on my vinyl for her (Taylor's Version) release. Artists can make something like $3-6 per $30 vinyl sale - even at the low end that's about 450 streams on Spotify (at ~$0.007 per stream) or roughly 30 hours of a single band's music to make them the same amount of money. For me, it's about saying "I love this thing so much, I want to have a physical copy of it"
They're great conversation pieces, decorations, good for parties (let people pick what they want to hear). The landfill factor is real but I don't think people buy vinyl records with the intention of eventually throwing them away - 450+ million iPods have been sold since Apple started making them. At around 3 ounces a piece (iPod Touch - Nanos were about 1.5 ounces and originals were 6+ oz) that's 42 million tons of iPod trash alone. Almost not a single one will still work by 2030.
I know these aren't 1:1 comparisons and that's sort of my point - everything, EVERYTHING has an environmental and health cost. I consider myself an environmentally and health conscious person, but I still own and use a 3d printer, I drive my car places I need to get to, I run the AC at night so I can sleep without sweating to death.
I guess all I'm getting at is this is a weird hill to die on.
I'm really curious to know why you think collecting CDs isn't a great option! I have some from the 80s that still work amazingly well, with no signs of degradation, and they offer fantastic sound...
I'm really curious to know why you think collecting CDs isn't a great option! I have some from the 80s that still work amazingly well, with no signs of degradation, and they offer fantastic sound quality! It's like having the best of both worlds: the physical discs, the cover art, and none of the toxic components.
I totally agree that, when considering the bigger picture, vinyl collectors might not have as much of an impact on waste compared to other aspects of the music and tech industries. But, I believe that any effort to reduce the presence of toxic materials is a positive move.
CDs are made of polycarbonate plastic which frequently contains the notorious Bisphenol A which was considered for use as an estrogenic drug until they found this one...
CDs are made of polycarbonate plastic which frequently contains the notorious Bisphenol A which was considered for use as an estrogenic drug until they found this one
I do like CDs for the most part, and I definitely didn't say it isn't a good option! I have quite a few - but they're definitely more fragile than records in a lot of cases. You could buy a...
I do like CDs for the most part, and I definitely didn't say it isn't a good option! I have quite a few - but they're definitely more fragile than records in a lot of cases. You could buy a resurfacer for the ones you play a lot, but the biggest issues is they skip easily, you don't see them while they're playing, and they're not as nice decoratively - another person mentioned in this thread that generally vinyls come with large format artwork and booklets that CDs simply can't fit in their small jewel cases. The jewel cases themselves are also additional plastic, albeit less harmful, the cases are also more fragile and I've had to replace quite a few from accidental drops in my days. So, it's not that I don't think they're good, I just don't think they fill the same cultural/social/aesthetic role as vinyl.
While Benn‘s video got me thinking on the vinyl record issue, this article in the New Yorker: The Hidden Cost of Streaming Music did something similar for my internet behavior. All those calls...
While Benn‘s video got me thinking on the vinyl record issue, this article in the New Yorker: The Hidden Cost of Streaming Music did something similar for my internet behavior. All those calls between your device and the network cost energy. Energy that needs to be provided from somewhere.
It’s the old problem of not wanting to know where the burger patty came from, I guess.
I’m saying this as I have around ~1000 vinyl records in the basement and some triple digit TB of music data on various devices. Not sure what the best is here. At the moment, I’m trying to not stream, but download to my phone when listening to music and change to a provider that attempts to get the necessary energy from renewable sources.
I read through the linked article; it was an interesting read! Sounds like CDs might be the least destructive? Though, purchasing music via a digital storefront and then playing it on a device...
I read through the linked article; it was an interesting read! Sounds like CDs might be the least destructive? Though, purchasing music via a digital storefront and then playing it on a device powered only by renewable energy (solar panels for example) would probably be the most sustainable option right now. Something that that article brought up that concerns me is the amount of user data that streaming services are collecting that could be used for nefarious purposes later. "Music as a Technology of Surveillance" is the journal article mentioned in the New Yorker article about this.
I think this missing the point about off gassing. The toxic compounds get exchanged with the air in your home eventually regardless of whether the lid is closed while playing -- by just diffusion...
to isolate the record from the environment. This might ostensibly be about keeping dust off of the vinyl, but it absolutely limits air exchange from any "off-gassing". PVC has a molecular weight about 1,000x that of air. I'd be willing to bet if he mounted that air quality monitor above the record player with the lid closed, it wouldn't even register.
I think this missing the point about off gassing. The toxic compounds get exchanged with the air in your home eventually regardless of whether the lid is closed while playing -- by just diffusion or when you open the lip to change the vinyl. Also, by virtue of being organic, many of these compounds will "stick" to surfaces, human skin, and dust in your home after being emitted. Organics literally diffuse into other organics, they get everywhere. They're awful. The only reason the monitor calms down once he stops his experiment is the compounds are now diffusely spread throughout the room. If you play your vinyl collection avidly, you'll certainly contaminate your home with these substances.
EVERYTHING has an environmental and health cost
Sure, but some things just suck as far a benefit-to-cost ratio goes and doesn't mean we shouldn't sunset bad tech.
I agree, but that's why I mentioned the molecular weight and wiping down the inside of the player - most of it might stick to the other plastics inside the machine. Maybe a silly but effective...
The toxic compounds get exchanged with the air in your home eventually regardless of whether the lid is closed while playing -- by just diffusion or when you open the lip to change the vinyl.
I agree, but that's why I mentioned the molecular weight and wiping down the inside of the player - most of it might stick to the other plastics inside the machine. Maybe a silly but effective solution would be to just rig up a small air purifier with an organic vapor filter, to exchange the air inside my record player, creating negative pressure while the lid is closed.
You ought to be able to make phonograph records out of some other material, see https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pvc-free-vinyl-record-sugars-starches-instead/
You ought to be able to make phonograph records out of some other material, see
That would be awesome, and I would love to see large scale production of a less harmful alternative that fills the same role, and maintains the same semi-permanence of use.
That would be awesome, and I would love to see large scale production of a less harmful alternative that fills the same role, and maintains the same semi-permanence of use.
… this is, PVC is the worst plastic for the environment. It’s a major reason why we quit burning trash because burning vinyl eats the incinerator from the inside out.
… this is, PVC is the worst plastic for the environment. It’s a major reason why we quit burning trash because burning vinyl eats the incinerator from the inside out.
Wow, that's way worse than I expected. I got rid of my vinyls a long time ago because of space issues, I had no idea it was also that toxic, thanks for the video.
Wow, that's way worse than I expected.
I got rid of my vinyls a long time ago because of space issues, I had no idea it was also that toxic, thanks for the video.
Wow that was a super interesting and eye opening video (I say as I sit directly next to my 300+ record collection). I’ve noticed a lot of indie bands are starting to go to “environmentally...
Wow that was a super interesting and eye opening video (I say as I sit directly next to my 300+ record collection). I’ve noticed a lot of indie bands are starting to go to “environmentally conscious” route when it comes to releasing albums. I believe both Big Thief and Idles most recent albums had options and they were cheaper than the standard black vinyl as well.
My partner and I are just starting on our record collection journey too. I feel called out, ehehe. It's tricky because, personally, I don't even necessarily find appeal in the record part of...
My partner and I are just starting on our record collection journey too. I feel called out, ehehe.
It's tricky because, personally, I don't even necessarily find appeal in the record part of record collecting? It's the sleeve that's so entrancing to me. I adore the blown up artwork, the extra artwork on the back, the inserts and notes and photos... The craft and artistry, and the tangibility of the artwork, it all gets lost in the transition to digital music.
I wish there was a way to retain that aspect without necessarily needing to keep vinyl as a format.
What form did the Big Thief and Idles releases take? o:
I think this is why NIN has released a ”physical component” for a few of their recent releases. It’s something tangible that’s related to the record that you can enjoy while listening to the...
I think this is why NIN has released a ”physical component” for a few of their recent releases. It’s something tangible that’s related to the record that you can enjoy while listening to the release digitally.
This guy’s point about vinyl being toxic is that it is made of PVC and that PVC is harmful. That may be the case, but PVC is everywhere. PVC can even be found in some homes’ water pipes. If the...
This guy’s point about vinyl being toxic is that it is made of PVC and that PVC is harmful. That may be the case, but PVC is everywhere. PVC can even be found in some homes’ water pipes. If the pipes aren’t PVC, they could be CPVC, which is just PVC treated with chlorine to be stronger, more flexible, etc.
As much as I was ready to hear a truth I didn’t want to hear, I don’t think PVC is a reason not to own vinyl, unless we are doing a serious overhaul of other stuff in our homes too.
In rhe video the guy says you shouldn’t be using PVC pipes for water in your home. I think by the kilogram. PVC use in buildings has to be vastly more than phonograph records. That includes not...
In rhe video the guy says you shouldn’t be using PVC pipes for water in your home.
I think by the kilogram. PVC use in buildings has to be vastly more than phonograph records. That includes not just he pipes but also flooring and siding.
For a guy who masters records he sure sucks at mastering a YouTube video. The background music is extremely distracting and way too loud. That aside I don't really get the point of the first seven...
For a guy who masters records he sure sucks at mastering a YouTube video. The background music is extremely distracting and way too loud.
That aside I don't really get the point of the first seven minutes of the video where he's basically trash talking vinyl. Yes it's not as good as digital but people who prefer vinyl will still prefer vinyl, no matter what you tell them. I personally don't care about vinyl but I know some people that do and there's just no point in arguing with them about it.
His points about PVC are valid but I really don't think vinyl records are much of a health risk. I think some government agency somewhere would have done something about it by now if that was the case. I think the bigger issue is the environmental impact of PVC, it's impossible to recycle so we should be looking for a different material that can be recycled. If the video was focused more on the environment I think it would be more effective.
He makes this point in the video though? He quite literally says that he has current offers from companies to print his records, and he's told them effectively, "Sure, if you can assure me that...
I think the bigger issue is the environmental impact of PVC, it's impossible to recycle so we should be looking for a different material that can be recycled.
He makes this point in the video though? He quite literally says that he has current offers from companies to print his records, and he's told them effectively, "Sure, if you can assure me that it's a recycled/recyclable product."
He does mention it, but the video mainly focuses on the health risks, he even does an experiment to measure air quality. If he replaced that section with a more in depth explanation of the...
He does mention it, but the video mainly focuses on the health risks, he even does an experiment to measure air quality. If he replaced that section with a more in depth explanation of the environmental impact of PVC the video would be a lot more effective in my opinion.
Yeah that makes sense, and I agree. The environmental impact could have been highlighted more than the portion I was referring to. Though I have to wonder if he felt that it would be more...
Yeah that makes sense, and I agree. The environmental impact could have been highlighted more than the portion I was referring to. Though I have to wonder if he felt that it would be more impactful for his viewers to focus more on the individual influences rather than the more widespread environmental factors, but that's just spit-balling on my part. Maybe a two-part video would have been better?
I'm only going to speak from my own perspective but I definitely don't buy vinyl for the audiophile qualities he spends a lot of time arguing. It's about owning a physical copy of something I love, and it's about the collecting itself.
Also, as far as the air quality thing goes, he plays the record with the top open... who does that? There's a reason almost all modern and most older record players have closing lids - to isolate the record from the environment. This might ostensibly be about keeping dust off of the vinyl, but it absolutely limits air exchange from any "off-gassing". PVC has a molecular weight about 1,000x that of air. I'd be willing to bet if he mounted that air quality monitor above the record player with the lid closed, it wouldn't even register. It's a better argument for occasionally wiping down the inside of your record player than not owning vinyl. I'm not going to spend the money to test it myself but it's some food for thought.
Owning/collecting vinyl is about truly owning your music. Digital storage media stop working over time too. Solid state drives have a lifespan of a decade or so, whereas I play vinyls from my step-grandpa's collection from the 40s and 50s with no issues. Some of the records I have are over 70 years old! No record company can pull the music from my vinyl because of contracts or licensing. I can't lose my entire collection because Spotify goes belly up. Taylor Swift can't change the lyrics on my vinyl for her (Taylor's Version) release. Artists can make something like $3-6 per $30 vinyl sale - even at the low end that's about 450 streams on Spotify (at ~$0.007 per stream) or roughly 30 hours of a single band's music to make them the same amount of money. For me, it's about saying "I love this thing so much, I want to have a physical copy of it"
They're great conversation pieces, decorations, good for parties (let people pick what they want to hear). The landfill factor is real but I don't think people buy vinyl records with the intention of eventually throwing them away - 450+ million iPods have been sold since Apple started making them. At around 3 ounces a piece (iPod Touch - Nanos were about 1.5 ounces and originals were 6+ oz) that's 42 million tons of iPod trash alone. Almost not a single one will still work by 2030.
I know these aren't 1:1 comparisons and that's sort of my point - everything, EVERYTHING has an environmental and health cost. I consider myself an environmentally and health conscious person, but I still own and use a 3d printer, I drive my car places I need to get to, I run the AC at night so I can sleep without sweating to death.
I guess all I'm getting at is this is a weird hill to die on.
I'm really curious to know why you think collecting CDs isn't a great option! I have some from the 80s that still work amazingly well, with no signs of degradation, and they offer fantastic sound quality! It's like having the best of both worlds: the physical discs, the cover art, and none of the toxic components.
I totally agree that, when considering the bigger picture, vinyl collectors might not have as much of an impact on waste compared to other aspects of the music and tech industries. But, I believe that any effort to reduce the presence of toxic materials is a positive move.
CDs are made of polycarbonate plastic which frequently contains the notorious Bisphenol A which was considered for use as an estrogenic drug until they found this one
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylstilbestrol
Myself, I like collecting minidiscs.
This is why I just remember all of my favorite songs and listen to them in my memory. The only environmentally friendly option.
Lol, I love the minidisc. Still have two players!
I do like CDs for the most part, and I definitely didn't say it isn't a good option! I have quite a few - but they're definitely more fragile than records in a lot of cases. You could buy a resurfacer for the ones you play a lot, but the biggest issues is they skip easily, you don't see them while they're playing, and they're not as nice decoratively - another person mentioned in this thread that generally vinyls come with large format artwork and booklets that CDs simply can't fit in their small jewel cases. The jewel cases themselves are also additional plastic, albeit less harmful, the cases are also more fragile and I've had to replace quite a few from accidental drops in my days. So, it's not that I don't think they're good, I just don't think they fill the same cultural/social/aesthetic role as vinyl.
While Benn‘s video got me thinking on the vinyl record issue, this article in the New Yorker: The Hidden Cost of Streaming Music did something similar for my internet behavior. All those calls between your device and the network cost energy. Energy that needs to be provided from somewhere.
It’s the old problem of not wanting to know where the burger patty came from, I guess.
I’m saying this as I have around ~1000 vinyl records in the basement and some triple digit TB of music data on various devices. Not sure what the best is here. At the moment, I’m trying to not stream, but download to my phone when listening to music and change to a provider that attempts to get the necessary energy from renewable sources.
I read through the linked article; it was an interesting read! Sounds like CDs might be the least destructive? Though, purchasing music via a digital storefront and then playing it on a device powered only by renewable energy (solar panels for example) would probably be the most sustainable option right now. Something that that article brought up that concerns me is the amount of user data that streaming services are collecting that could be used for nefarious purposes later. "Music as a Technology of Surveillance" is the journal article mentioned in the New Yorker article about this.
I think this missing the point about off gassing. The toxic compounds get exchanged with the air in your home eventually regardless of whether the lid is closed while playing -- by just diffusion or when you open the lip to change the vinyl. Also, by virtue of being organic, many of these compounds will "stick" to surfaces, human skin, and dust in your home after being emitted. Organics literally diffuse into other organics, they get everywhere. They're awful. The only reason the monitor calms down once he stops his experiment is the compounds are now diffusely spread throughout the room. If you play your vinyl collection avidly, you'll certainly contaminate your home with these substances.
Sure, but some things just suck as far a benefit-to-cost ratio goes and doesn't mean we shouldn't sunset bad tech.
I agree, but that's why I mentioned the molecular weight and wiping down the inside of the player - most of it might stick to the other plastics inside the machine. Maybe a silly but effective solution would be to just rig up a small air purifier with an organic vapor filter, to exchange the air inside my record player, creating negative pressure while the lid is closed.
You ought to be able to make phonograph records out of some other material, see
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pvc-free-vinyl-record-sugars-starches-instead/
That would be awesome, and I would love to see large scale production of a less harmful alternative that fills the same role, and maintains the same semi-permanence of use.
… this is, PVC is the worst plastic for the environment. It’s a major reason why we quit burning trash because burning vinyl eats the incinerator from the inside out.
Wow, that's way worse than I expected.
I got rid of my vinyls a long time ago because of space issues, I had no idea it was also that toxic, thanks for the video.
Wow that was a super interesting and eye opening video (I say as I sit directly next to my 300+ record collection). I’ve noticed a lot of indie bands are starting to go to “environmentally conscious” route when it comes to releasing albums. I believe both Big Thief and Idles most recent albums had options and they were cheaper than the standard black vinyl as well.
My partner and I are just starting on our record collection journey too. I feel called out, ehehe.
It's tricky because, personally, I don't even necessarily find appeal in the record part of record collecting? It's the sleeve that's so entrancing to me. I adore the blown up artwork, the extra artwork on the back, the inserts and notes and photos... The craft and artistry, and the tangibility of the artwork, it all gets lost in the transition to digital music.
I wish there was a way to retain that aspect without necessarily needing to keep vinyl as a format.
What form did the Big Thief and Idles releases take? o:
I think this is why NIN has released a ”physical component” for a few of their recent releases. It’s something tangible that’s related to the record that you can enjoy while listening to the release digitally.
This guy’s point about vinyl being toxic is that it is made of PVC and that PVC is harmful. That may be the case, but PVC is everywhere. PVC can even be found in some homes’ water pipes. If the pipes aren’t PVC, they could be CPVC, which is just PVC treated with chlorine to be stronger, more flexible, etc.
As much as I was ready to hear a truth I didn’t want to hear, I don’t think PVC is a reason not to own vinyl, unless we are doing a serious overhaul of other stuff in our homes too.
In rhe video the guy says you shouldn’t be using PVC pipes for water in your home.
I think by the kilogram. PVC use in buildings has to be vastly more than phonograph records. That includes not just he pipes but also flooring and siding.
For a guy who masters records he sure sucks at mastering a YouTube video. The background music is extremely distracting and way too loud.
That aside I don't really get the point of the first seven minutes of the video where he's basically trash talking vinyl. Yes it's not as good as digital but people who prefer vinyl will still prefer vinyl, no matter what you tell them. I personally don't care about vinyl but I know some people that do and there's just no point in arguing with them about it.
His points about PVC are valid but I really don't think vinyl records are much of a health risk. I think some government agency somewhere would have done something about it by now if that was the case. I think the bigger issue is the environmental impact of PVC, it's impossible to recycle so we should be looking for a different material that can be recycled. If the video was focused more on the environment I think it would be more effective.
He makes this point in the video though? He quite literally says that he has current offers from companies to print his records, and he's told them effectively, "Sure, if you can assure me that it's a recycled/recyclable product."
He does mention it, but the video mainly focuses on the health risks, he even does an experiment to measure air quality. If he replaced that section with a more in depth explanation of the environmental impact of PVC the video would be a lot more effective in my opinion.
Yeah that makes sense, and I agree. The environmental impact could have been highlighted more than the portion I was referring to. Though I have to wonder if he felt that it would be more impactful for his viewers to focus more on the individual influences rather than the more widespread environmental factors, but that's just spit-balling on my part. Maybe a two-part video would have been better?
This is kinda ironic, but I couldn't make it through the video because of the music track.
I really dislike this kind of Youtube editing. Makes it difficult to focus on what's important because of all the noise.