I have a young relative who is a prolific songwriter. She is 100 percent self taught and all the songs are recorded with an iPhone on a piano that hasn’t been tuned in 40 years. I have no...
I have a young relative who is a prolific songwriter. She is 100 percent self taught and all the songs are recorded with an iPhone on a piano that hasn’t been tuned in 40 years.
I have no professional music experience, and I acknowledge I am biased because I know this person, yet I feel like the song writing (i.e. particularly the song writing aspect, esp. the lyrics) is just incredible. Really—the music is special imho. (My favorites: Appaloosa, ninth life, inbound. It’s on Spotify, artist is Lady Dynamite... I’d love to know what you all think of it.)
I am perpetually encouraging this young artist to engage in the world in a promotional way, with the cynical perspective that there is no creative work that is exempt from the vulgar toils of marketing.
She truly wants people to hear her music--but the trifecta of: how identity gets constructed online (and forever follows you and defines you), trolls, and the inauthenticity (my words, not hers, but trying to capture a feeling) of self-promotion--she does nothing more than add the songs to a Spotify account, anonymous and unlinked to her IRL identity in any way.
While one reading might be that she is hemmed in by her own fears, I don’t think that’s really it. She is fearless about putting other work in the world under her own name. In these other non-music endeavors she does—possibly because they are projects that are inherently and already intertwined with the sullying forces of what it means to “self-promote”—she is willing to be the vocal spokesperson for them. I think it is partially because music is so important to her, that she doesn’t want to feel it weighed down by self-promotion. She isn't opposed to others sharing the music, so there is nothing about it being "private" going on here either.
This rambling post is about all kinds of questions and thoughts…
(a) how much exceptional generative work is effectively erased/lost because there is “no brother Theo,” ie no internal or external driver of the very capitalist project of marketing (thinking about how instrumental Vincent Van Gogh’s brother was.)
(b) What do you think of the music? I really love it, and listen to it quite a bit. Is this a function of bias, or quality? (obviously there are other things at play, like does it sound like other music you like, etc., but asking generally.)
(c) Is having an audience, no matter how small, possible without self-promotion? On the surface it seems like the answer is no, and obviously if zero people know about it, nothing happens… but do people share things they love? Is word of mouth a thing? And if so, what does it need to be seeded and started? 100 fans? 1,000? 10,000? (obviously there isn’t a concrete number, more curious about musings you all have on the broader questions…)
(d) If you are an artist, musician, writer etc. what advice would you have for this young musician who would love an audience but who has zero space for the adjacent commercial work?
Music culture is kinda sorta broken. For many people, music is not good because it is art, it's good because it's a cultural symbol. There are literally hundreds of thousands of talented musicians...
Music culture is kinda sorta broken. For many people, music is not good because it is art, it's good because it's a cultural symbol. There are literally hundreds of thousands of talented musicians out there who are churning out masterpiece after masterpiece but they don't have the promotion or cultural cache to turn it into a real career. And then there is another group of thousands who do but you simply don't know who they are because their music is often in service of another piece of media, like soundtracks for TV and games. But music is also very subjective so even if she's the next Mozart it doesn't mean that she'll ever cultivate a following.
I suppose the question your relative aught to ask herself is, "why am I making this music?" It doesn't have to be for fortune and fame. There are certainly people who make music just for the joy of creation, or for the pleasure they get from improving a hobbycraft.
If all she wants is for people to listen to her music, then there is no way to avoid self-promotion. She's got to promote herself or people will continue to be ignorant to her existence, let alone the music she makes. Being on Spotify is a good first step, but it should be far from the last. She should put her music everywhere people look for music: places like YouTube, SoundCloud, and Bandcamp. There are, after all, people who don't use spotify (and people like me who refuse - so sorry for not listening to your link). But that's still the minimum if people don't know who she is. She needs to try entering songwriting competitions, for instance; anything that will put her music in front of people who are interested in listening to new things is fantastic! One of the best promotion methods is live performance, so it might not be a bad idea to try to get gigs or even to just perform in a public square.
Finally, I'd recommend her to rebrand. I tried doing a web search for Lady Dynamite and it turns out it's a fairly popular TV show. When I appended "musician" to the search I learned there is a Ms. Dynamite already out there. It sounds like using her real name might be more effective - though I certainly don't recommend it.
Let me know if there's anywhere else to listen to her music because you've got me intrigued.
The good (?) news is one cannot upload music directly to Spotify: using a music distribution agent is mandatory. Such companies (DistroKid, LANDR, etc) will send it to dozens of music services by...
The good (?) news is one cannot upload music directly to Spotify: using a music distribution agent is mandatory. Such companies (DistroKid, LANDR, etc) will send it to dozens of music services by default. So if it's on Spotify, it's probably also on Apple Music, Amazon, YT Music, et al. So accessibility is fairly solved...not that that really helps with discovery.
We live in a world of creative excess. That is to say, the level and drive you need to be able to live off performing arts in various ways (or getting an audience outside immediate friends and...
We live in a world of creative excess. That is to say, the level and drive you need to be able to live off performing arts in various ways (or getting an audience outside immediate friends and family) is extremely high.
I say drive, because that's what you need: every one of my friends who live off being musicians (compared to those who became music educators), couldn't not become a musician. It was a calling, a passion. They were willing to live in poverty because there was no option not to follow their dream. It's the exact same for the couple of people I know who live each as painters, conductors, composers, singers and actors.
I think you want honesty: I could go to my tiny local community college and find 15 people who study music and write stuff like this. It's the same for every other community college that provides musical education, creative writing, acting etc.
Excepting the lyrics, I could find 30 folks like this at any local high school that has a "music track".
Noting only a couple of the most major issues (that any self-taught person will have, but most people with even rudimentary accompaniment and choir lessons in music school will have solved):
It seems pretty much all the capacity is spent getting the words and notes out. There doesn't seem to be much of a plan in terms of dynamics/timbre/voice or an overall musical idea/progression for each song.
The tempo is uneven, and becomes much more so when she plays anything on the keys beyond simple chords.
She struggles with breathing, sings consistently flat, and has other issues with intonation when the intervals increase, especially in descending passages.
There are thousands of hours of guided, systematic practice and lessons, both vocally and on the keys to find out if this young lady can be a musician. Then there's quite a bit of music theory and composition if she's to write songs that can be published/performed.
To stand out, you'd need production, refinement and drive that comes from putting lots and lots of time and effort not into the music, but into getting the music out there with the basic quality needed.
c) Word of mouth is a thing. I paid my way through college performing music mostly at weddings, some birthday parties, confirmation parties, funerals etc. We hardly advertised after getting the ball rolling a little, and had to turn down a large majority of the gigs we were asked to play simply due to time.
String quartets are in demand. I think it's tremendously much harder to get work/recognition/build if you're in a traditional band, or some sort of guitar/piano singing-context. There are just oh so many groups.
I realized I didn't want to be a musician. It was fun for a couple of years, but the lifestyle and hours weren't it for me. Those I played with have never looked back and live well now.
I don't think building a fanbase online first is ever worth it. You need the gigs in meatspace first, and you need to get pretty big before you can even maintain a marginally active social media page. We never could, even though we were playing 150 events a year, and living comfortably alongside college.
The drive to make it to live off music has to come from within the person doing it. You're the one who has to perform on stage or be the perfectionist with the others in studio.
But more importantly: You're the one who has to love practicing hours and hours and hours a day, every day as a prerequisite to making it to an audience.
I'd also recommend buying her a full-weighted keyboard. She can get a lot more control over the sound by recording the piano sounds separately from her voice and get a real improvement on the...
I'd also recommend buying her a full-weighted keyboard. She can get a lot more control over the sound by recording the piano sounds separately from her voice and get a real improvement on the harmonics. It's easy to get started and it's a good first step to improving her overall composition and production skills. They're fairly inexpensive these days, but it's still a few hundred dollars at minimum. I bought my grandmother a Yamaha model a few years ago and she loved the thing.
What a cool idea. I had been thinking about getting her a few hours in a recording studio as a birthday present, but this seems like a much, much better idea that will support her growth much more...
What a cool idea. I had been thinking about getting her a few hours in a recording studio as a birthday present, but this seems like a much, much better idea that will support her growth much more deeply. Appreciate you Akir.
Another option that would go further than studio time is home recording equipment. It's very powerful now, and some cheap hardware and software would be a major leap up from recording on an...
Another option that would go further than studio time is home recording equipment. It's very powerful now, and some cheap hardware and software would be a major leap up from recording on an iPhone.
A music-oriented microphone and an audio interface for a computer can be had for around $200 (maybe another $100 for studio monitoring headphones), and many options will include a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) like Ableton Lite or Studio One Artist, which is all you need to do recording and mixing on your own. There's a bit of a learning curve, but it's well worth recording tracks individually and mixing them. Plus, you get extra accompaniment options, since DAWs typically include a drum sequencer and some synths.
it depends where she lives, but they should look in to an indie artist support from the government or something similar. they often provide new artists with boot camps, grants, and more. she’s...
it depends where she lives, but they should look in to an indie artist support from the government or something similar. they often provide new artists with boot camps, grants, and more. she’s doing a lot with very little.
Thank you for a youtube option! I have a spootify account somewhere but I never bother with it, just poke at YT with no google cookies. For OP: This is lovely. Will be checking out more and...
Thank you for a youtube option! I have a spootify account somewhere but I never bother with it, just poke at YT with no google cookies.
For OP: This is lovely. Will be checking out more and sharing. The piano doesn't sound out of tune, but as others have mentioned, a tuning and/or a weighted electrical keyboard option would also be awesome!
Yes, that's her! I didn't realize she had her music in so many places... really surprised to see it on Apple and YT music. Thank you for sharing that link. And I'll check out Regina Spektor. Thank...
Yes, that's her! I didn't realize she had her music in so many places... really surprised to see it on Apple and YT music. Thank you for sharing that link. And I'll check out Regina Spektor. Thank you.
As a child of the 90s, one of the thing that has disappointed me the most in my life is the turn toward inauthenticity that the entire world seems to have taken. Authenticity was highly valued in...
As a child of the 90s, one of the thing that has disappointed me the most in my life is the turn toward inauthenticity that the entire world seems to have taken. Authenticity was highly valued in the 90s, and even as the 00s brought things like reality TV, it seemed like the Internet might continue to provide avenues/exposure for authentic expression (remember PostSecret? Arcade Fire? early YouTube?). But while authentic expression is still possible, it's not the cultural value it used to be, and it seems to be incompatible with a comfortable financial existence.
They have a new fan in me. I'm not even sure why I like it so much! Maybe it's the sincerity with which OP shared them with us. Maybe it's because it reminds me of all the time I used to spend...
They have a new fan in me.
I'm not even sure why I like it so much! Maybe it's the sincerity with which OP shared them with us. Maybe it's because it reminds me of all the time I used to spend practicing on an out-of-tune upright piano. Maybe it's because they remind me of some artists I really like (Sammy Rae & The Friends, Sir Woman).
Regardless, I really liked listening through the album you linked. I always get a kick out of songs that "break out of the music", and found myself laughing along with her @3:07 of the song Lady Dynamite.
Disclaimer: I'm not a writer, artist, or professional musician
I get the impression that OP's post is coming from a place of "I believe in my relative so much that I'm convinced they could make a career out of music". Maybe this is me projecting my feelings with music onto Lady Dynamite, but there's so much fulfillment you can find between the extrema of "no one hears my music" and "people love my music so much I can sustain myself off of it".
Are they happy just letting their work out into the world, so long as they know it's heard? Then they're already doing what they need to do by putting it up on Spotify. You could consider encouraging her to post on other social media (Tiktok, YouTube, Instagram) on the off chance her music gets recommended to people who appreciate it.
Do they have any desire to perform? If Lady Dynamite is still in school (High School or especially University) there's likely a some opportunities in/around her school. A band run by the school (e.g. Jazz Band) would give an outlet to express herself musically with other peers, with the added bonus of a builtin audience come their final performance. There might be events, on-campus open mics, hell even some parties that she could perform at. If Lady Dynamite isn't in school, they could try looking for open mics or even busking if their municipality allows. There's probably a bunch of other venues that would welcome someone who is just looking to perform their music in front of an audience (e.g. churches...).
What little I know about the music industry suggests that commercializing your creativity is really hard. If that isn't what Lady Dynamite wants to do, there definitely other avenues that you can continue to support her musically.
I have a couple disjointed thoughts that didn't fit in anywhere else in the post:
I think Lady Dynamite would sound really good in a band.
Do you happen to know what kind of music they listen to? There's a couple genres I think I heard sprinkled through her songs, and I'm curious how right I was.
If there's any space for providing critique (mainly things I also struggle(d) with on piano):
There are couple points where you can hear her "hesitate" before hitting a chord. Probably because she hadn't practiced that section a whole ton, and was looking for the chord.
Her tempo isn't always consistent. Not always a bad thing and can be used to great effect, but there was atleast one song where it didn't sound intentional.
The issue of exposure and building an audience aside, much of music does avoid the cynical cult of celebrity. Electronic Dance Music genres very commonly expect pseudonyms and keeping the audience...
She truly wants people to hear her music--but the trifecta of: how identity gets constructed online (and forever follows you and defines you), trolls, and the inauthenticity (my words, not hers, but trying to capture a feeling) of self-promotion...
The issue of exposure and building an audience aside, much of music does avoid the cynical cult of celebrity. Electronic Dance Music genres very commonly expect pseudonyms and keeping the audience at arms-reach as relatively normal (e.g. Daft Punk, Deadmau5 on the more popular end).
Vocaloid music almost exclusively revolves around producers using a pseudonym and cultivating an alter ego; once in awhile one will become known for a "solo career" (e.g. Kenshi Yonezu, Reol) and their real name will be more widely associated with their vocaloid work, but it's not the norm. I can tell you Giga, MitchieM and Deco27 make good music and are popular, but I couldn't tell who who they are beyond that. (And that's the way I like it.)
I have a young relative who is a prolific songwriter. She is 100 percent self taught and all the songs are recorded with an iPhone on a piano that hasn’t been tuned in 40 years.
I have no professional music experience, and I acknowledge I am biased because I know this person, yet I feel like the song writing (i.e. particularly the song writing aspect, esp. the lyrics) is just incredible. Really—the music is special imho. (My favorites: Appaloosa, ninth life, inbound. It’s on Spotify, artist is Lady Dynamite... I’d love to know what you all think of it.)
I am perpetually encouraging this young artist to engage in the world in a promotional way, with the cynical perspective that there is no creative work that is exempt from the vulgar toils of marketing.
She truly wants people to hear her music--but the trifecta of: how identity gets constructed online (and forever follows you and defines you), trolls, and the inauthenticity (my words, not hers, but trying to capture a feeling) of self-promotion--she does nothing more than add the songs to a Spotify account, anonymous and unlinked to her IRL identity in any way.
While one reading might be that she is hemmed in by her own fears, I don’t think that’s really it. She is fearless about putting other work in the world under her own name. In these other non-music endeavors she does—possibly because they are projects that are inherently and already intertwined with the sullying forces of what it means to “self-promote”—she is willing to be the vocal spokesperson for them. I think it is partially because music is so important to her, that she doesn’t want to feel it weighed down by self-promotion. She isn't opposed to others sharing the music, so there is nothing about it being "private" going on here either.
This rambling post is about all kinds of questions and thoughts…
(a) how much exceptional generative work is effectively erased/lost because there is “no brother Theo,” ie no internal or external driver of the very capitalist project of marketing (thinking about how instrumental Vincent Van Gogh’s brother was.)
(b) What do you think of the music? I really love it, and listen to it quite a bit. Is this a function of bias, or quality? (obviously there are other things at play, like does it sound like other music you like, etc., but asking generally.)
(c) Is having an audience, no matter how small, possible without self-promotion? On the surface it seems like the answer is no, and obviously if zero people know about it, nothing happens… but do people share things they love? Is word of mouth a thing? And if so, what does it need to be seeded and started? 100 fans? 1,000? 10,000? (obviously there isn’t a concrete number, more curious about musings you all have on the broader questions…)
(d) If you are an artist, musician, writer etc. what advice would you have for this young musician who would love an audience but who has zero space for the adjacent commercial work?
Music culture is kinda sorta broken. For many people, music is not good because it is art, it's good because it's a cultural symbol. There are literally hundreds of thousands of talented musicians out there who are churning out masterpiece after masterpiece but they don't have the promotion or cultural cache to turn it into a real career. And then there is another group of thousands who do but you simply don't know who they are because their music is often in service of another piece of media, like soundtracks for TV and games. But music is also very subjective so even if she's the next Mozart it doesn't mean that she'll ever cultivate a following.
I suppose the question your relative aught to ask herself is, "why am I making this music?" It doesn't have to be for fortune and fame. There are certainly people who make music just for the joy of creation, or for the pleasure they get from improving a hobbycraft.
If all she wants is for people to listen to her music, then there is no way to avoid self-promotion. She's got to promote herself or people will continue to be ignorant to her existence, let alone the music she makes. Being on Spotify is a good first step, but it should be far from the last. She should put her music everywhere people look for music: places like YouTube, SoundCloud, and Bandcamp. There are, after all, people who don't use spotify (and people like me who refuse - so sorry for not listening to your link). But that's still the minimum if people don't know who she is. She needs to try entering songwriting competitions, for instance; anything that will put her music in front of people who are interested in listening to new things is fantastic! One of the best promotion methods is live performance, so it might not be a bad idea to try to get gigs or even to just perform in a public square.
Finally, I'd recommend her to rebrand. I tried doing a web search for Lady Dynamite and it turns out it's a fairly popular TV show. When I appended "musician" to the search I learned there is a Ms. Dynamite already out there. It sounds like using her real name might be more effective - though I certainly don't recommend it.
Let me know if there's anywhere else to listen to her music because you've got me intrigued.
The good (?) news is one cannot upload music directly to Spotify: using a music distribution agent is mandatory. Such companies (DistroKid, LANDR, etc) will send it to dozens of music services by default. So if it's on Spotify, it's probably also on Apple Music, Amazon, YT Music, et al. So accessibility is fairly solved...not that that really helps with discovery.
We live in a world of creative excess. That is to say, the level and drive you need to be able to live off performing arts in various ways (or getting an audience outside immediate friends and family) is extremely high.
I say drive, because that's what you need: every one of my friends who live off being musicians (compared to those who became music educators), couldn't not become a musician. It was a calling, a passion. They were willing to live in poverty because there was no option not to follow their dream. It's the exact same for the couple of people I know who live each as painters, conductors, composers, singers and actors.
I think you want honesty: I could go to my tiny local community college and find 15 people who study music and write stuff like this. It's the same for every other community college that provides musical education, creative writing, acting etc.
Excepting the lyrics, I could find 30 folks like this at any local high school that has a "music track".
Noting only a couple of the most major issues (that any self-taught person will have, but most people with even rudimentary accompaniment and choir lessons in music school will have solved):
There are thousands of hours of guided, systematic practice and lessons, both vocally and on the keys to find out if this young lady can be a musician. Then there's quite a bit of music theory and composition if she's to write songs that can be published/performed.
To stand out, you'd need production, refinement and drive that comes from putting lots and lots of time and effort not into the music, but into getting the music out there with the basic quality needed.
c) Word of mouth is a thing. I paid my way through college performing music mostly at weddings, some birthday parties, confirmation parties, funerals etc. We hardly advertised after getting the ball rolling a little, and had to turn down a large majority of the gigs we were asked to play simply due to time.
String quartets are in demand. I think it's tremendously much harder to get work/recognition/build if you're in a traditional band, or some sort of guitar/piano singing-context. There are just oh so many groups.
I realized I didn't want to be a musician. It was fun for a couple of years, but the lifestyle and hours weren't it for me. Those I played with have never looked back and live well now.
I don't think building a fanbase online first is ever worth it. You need the gigs in meatspace first, and you need to get pretty big before you can even maintain a marginally active social media page. We never could, even though we were playing 150 events a year, and living comfortably alongside college.
The drive to make it to live off music has to come from within the person doing it. You're the one who has to perform on stage or be the perfectionist with the others in studio.
But more importantly: You're the one who has to love practicing hours and hours and hours a day, every day as a prerequisite to making it to an audience.
as a side note, paying for a tuner for your relative's piano would be a really great, relatively inexpensive birthday/christmas gift
Great idea. I'll definitely do this.
I'd also recommend buying her a full-weighted keyboard. She can get a lot more control over the sound by recording the piano sounds separately from her voice and get a real improvement on the harmonics. It's easy to get started and it's a good first step to improving her overall composition and production skills. They're fairly inexpensive these days, but it's still a few hundred dollars at minimum. I bought my grandmother a Yamaha model a few years ago and she loved the thing.
What a cool idea. I had been thinking about getting her a few hours in a recording studio as a birthday present, but this seems like a much, much better idea that will support her growth much more deeply. Appreciate you Akir.
Another option that would go further than studio time is home recording equipment. It's very powerful now, and some cheap hardware and software would be a major leap up from recording on an iPhone.
A music-oriented microphone and an audio interface for a computer can be had for around $200 (maybe another $100 for studio monitoring headphones), and many options will include a DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) like Ableton Lite or Studio One Artist, which is all you need to do recording and mixing on your own. There's a bit of a learning curve, but it's well worth recording tracks individually and mixing them. Plus, you get extra accompaniment options, since DAWs typically include a drum sequencer and some synths.
it depends where she lives, but they should look in to an indie artist support from the government or something similar. they often provide new artists with boot camps, grants, and more. she’s doing a lot with very little.
Is this her? was only able to listen to a few seconds of the first song but it sounded very fun - reminded me of Regina Spektor
Oh dang, I hope so, because I really like what I've listened to so far.
Thank you for a youtube option! I have a spootify account somewhere but I never bother with it, just poke at YT with no google cookies.
For OP: This is lovely. Will be checking out more and sharing. The piano doesn't sound out of tune, but as others have mentioned, a tuning and/or a weighted electrical keyboard option would also be awesome!
Yes, that's her! I didn't realize she had her music in so many places... really surprised to see it on Apple and YT music. Thank you for sharing that link. And I'll check out Regina Spektor. Thank you.
As a child of the 90s, one of the thing that has disappointed me the most in my life is the turn toward inauthenticity that the entire world seems to have taken. Authenticity was highly valued in the 90s, and even as the 00s brought things like reality TV, it seemed like the Internet might continue to provide avenues/exposure for authentic expression (remember PostSecret? Arcade Fire? early YouTube?). But while authentic expression is still possible, it's not the cultural value it used to be, and it seems to be incompatible with a comfortable financial existence.
They have a new fan in me.
I'm not even sure why I like it so much! Maybe it's the sincerity with which OP shared them with us. Maybe it's because it reminds me of all the time I used to spend practicing on an out-of-tune upright piano. Maybe it's because they remind me of some artists I really like (Sammy Rae & The Friends, Sir Woman).
Regardless, I really liked listening through the album you linked. I always get a kick out of songs that "break out of the music", and found myself laughing along with her @3:07 of the song Lady Dynamite.
Disclaimer: I'm not a writer, artist, or professional musician
I get the impression that OP's post is coming from a place of "I believe in my relative so much that I'm convinced they could make a career out of music". Maybe this is me projecting my feelings with music onto Lady Dynamite, but there's so much fulfillment you can find between the extrema of "no one hears my music" and "people love my music so much I can sustain myself off of it".
Are they happy just letting their work out into the world, so long as they know it's heard? Then they're already doing what they need to do by putting it up on Spotify. You could consider encouraging her to post on other social media (Tiktok, YouTube, Instagram) on the off chance her music gets recommended to people who appreciate it.
Do they have any desire to perform? If Lady Dynamite is still in school (High School or especially University) there's likely a some opportunities in/around her school. A band run by the school (e.g. Jazz Band) would give an outlet to express herself musically with other peers, with the added bonus of a builtin audience come their final performance. There might be events, on-campus open mics, hell even some parties that she could perform at. If Lady Dynamite isn't in school, they could try looking for open mics or even busking if their municipality allows. There's probably a bunch of other venues that would welcome someone who is just looking to perform their music in front of an audience (e.g. churches...).
What little I know about the music industry suggests that commercializing your creativity is really hard. If that isn't what Lady Dynamite wants to do, there definitely other avenues that you can continue to support her musically.
I have a couple disjointed thoughts that didn't fit in anywhere else in the post:
The issue of exposure and building an audience aside, much of music does avoid the cynical cult of celebrity. Electronic Dance Music genres very commonly expect pseudonyms and keeping the audience at arms-reach as relatively normal (e.g. Daft Punk, Deadmau5 on the more popular end).
Vocaloid music almost exclusively revolves around producers using a pseudonym and cultivating an alter ego; once in awhile one will become known for a "solo career" (e.g. Kenshi Yonezu, Reol) and their real name will be more widely associated with their vocaloid work, but it's not the norm. I can tell you Giga, MitchieM and Deco27 make good music and are popular, but I couldn't tell who who they are beyond that. (And that's the way I like it.)