Arab states are working on an initiative to secure a ceasefire and the release of hostages in Gaza as part of a broader plan that could offer Israel a normalisation of relations if it agreed to “irreversible” steps towards the creation of a Palestinian state.
When Saudi foreign minister Prince Faisal bin Farhan was asked on Tuesday if Riyadh would recognise Israel as part of a wider political agreement, he said “certainly”.
In December, the Israeli prime minister said he was “proud” that he had prevented the establishment of a Palestinian state, saying “everyone understands what would have happened if we had capitulated to international pressures and enabled a state like that”.
But Saudi Arabia made it clear that while the process [of establishing relations with Israel] was stalled [following the Hamas attacks], the kingdom had not taken the option off the table. There was also the realisation that Riyadh would have to secure greater concessions from Israel for the Palestinians, including in Gaza, with more concrete steps towards the creation of a Palestinian state.
Saudi Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, the nation’s day-to-day leader, was keen to normalise ties with Israel as he drives an ambitious programme to develop the conservative kingdom into a finance, trade and tourism hub. Now, like other Arab states, Riyadh is worried about the risk of the Israel-Hamas war causing a regional conflagration that spills over borders, as well as the danger that the devastation in Gaza radicalises a new generation of young Arabs.
The Saudi leadership has expressed outrage at Israel’s offensive in Gaza, which has killed more than 24,000 people, according to Palestinian health officials, raised the risk of famine in the strip, and reduced swaths of the enclave to rubble-strewn wastelands. It has repeatedly joined calls for an immediate ceasefire in Gaza.
It's great that neighboring countries are working towards lasting peace. But I suppose the biggest caveat here is that Palestinians themselves do not actually want a 2-state solution. Maybe it...
It's great that neighboring countries are working towards lasting peace. But I suppose the biggest caveat here is that Palestinians themselves do not actually want a 2-state solution. Maybe it will be forced upon them though?
And a Gallup poll found that just 24% of Palestinians living in the West Bank, Gaza and East Jerusalem supported a two-state solution, down from 59% in 2012. Young Palestinians were significantly less enthusiastic than their parents.
Neither Israel nor Palestine would really be OK with a two-state solution created by their neighbors. Israel would at minimum need to be assured that their new neighbor is an actual nation state...
Neither Israel nor Palestine would really be OK with a two-state solution created by their neighbors. Israel would at minimum need to be assured that their new neighbor is an actual nation state that is acting in good faith and not just secretly (or not so secretly) plotting an invasion or more terrorism in the future. Palestinians have consistently expressed their disinterest in any solution that doesn't involve sovereignty over all of what they consider their historical territory. There's no particular reason to believe that just because Arab neighbors are defining the details they'd be any more receptive to it.
I think the Palestinians would need a similar guarantee too – a Palestinian state won't work if the Israelis run regular military raids and use their targeted missile systems to blow people up...
Israel would at minimum need to be assured that their new neighbor is an actual nation state that is acting in good faith and not just secretly (or not so secretly) plotting an invasion or more terrorism in the future.
I think the Palestinians would need a similar guarantee too – a Palestinian state won't work if the Israelis run regular military raids and use their targeted missile systems to blow people up while they eat dinner. I think the Palestinians would probably accept a viable state in the west bank (with all the settlers removed).
The thing is that the Palestinian position – that they would like the land that they were living on only 50-75 years ago back – is pretty reasonable. What the Palestinians say is also led by the fact that unlike Israel they are in a very vulnerable position and are fighting for their survival as a people. I support the Jewish right to self-determinition, but I also support the Palestinian one, and don't believe that either group is more deserving than the other.
This is not the same demand. The latter implies the existence of an israeli state, while stu2b50's assertion could quite feasibly imply the opposite.
Palestinians have consistently expressed their disinterest in any solution that doesn't involve sovereignty over all of what they consider their historical territory.
The thing is that the Palestinian position – that they would like the land that they were living on only 50-75 years ago back – is pretty reasonable.
This is not the same demand. The latter implies the existence of an israeli state, while stu2b50's assertion could quite feasibly imply the opposite.
I wonder if Israel never did the settlements how the Palestinian people would feel after a few generations. I wonder if they’d feel the same as they do now in a few generations if Israel stopped...
I wonder if Israel never did the settlements how the Palestinian people would feel after a few generations. I wonder if they’d feel the same as they do now in a few generations if Israel stopped the settlements today. I wonder if Israel will ever stop the settlements…
It would help, but fundamentally both Gaza and Israel need a change of leadership before any kind of two state solution is possible. Gaza cannot be ruled by Hamas for there to be any chance of...
It would help, but fundamentally both Gaza and Israel need a change of leadership before any kind of two state solution is possible. Gaza cannot be ruled by Hamas for there to be any chance of peace. Israel needs a liberal majority government, or at least not Netanyahu.
That and a lot of time. But that’s quite a lot of IFs, and there’s no obvious way for Gaza to change leadership to begin with.
I don't think a more liberal majority has a chance to manifest (on either side) as long as the security situation is so dire. Security threats have always been beneficial for conservative and...
I don't think a more liberal majority has a chance to manifest (on either side) as long as the security situation is so dire. Security threats have always been beneficial for conservative and militant politics. I'm going to continue to beat that old drum: Without an externally upheld peace, this conflict isn't going anywhere. Get peacekeepers into there that protect both sides from each other, and the wounds can start to heal. But no one has the appetite for that it seems; by the sounds of it, not even the arab neighbors.
Historically our "peacekeepers" have always run away at the first sign of violence. The UN bases along the Lebanon-Israel border are notorious for this, and honestly? I can't blame them. Both the...
Historically our "peacekeepers" have always run away at the first sign of violence. The UN bases along the Lebanon-Israel border are notorious for this, and honestly? I can't blame them. Both the Israelis and the terrorist groups around us wouldn't hesitate to go through them if they needed to.
Right. I too can't blame peacekeepers/nations from half a world a way to not put their lives on the line. The risk-reward situation just doesn't seem worth it. High risk of casualties, low chance...
Right. I too can't blame peacekeepers/nations from half a world a way to not put their lives on the line. The risk-reward situation just doesn't seem worth it. High risk of casualties, low chance of lasting success, and e.g. western states have little appetite for that kind of conflict. Previously, my hope was for regional powers to help out: An arab peacekeeping force in Gaza that is reasonably forceful against Hamas could've worked, as that keeps Israel from having to go over their heads, and at the same time is probably the one external peacekeeping force that palestinians are most willing to accept. Under cover of that force, Marshall plan the shit out of the palestinian territories. It seems though that e.g. Egypt or Saudi Arabia aren't exactly volunteering. Again, can't blame them. I doubt there's a possible middle ground of Rules of Engagement that are sufficiently forceful to keep peacekeepers safe but also sufficiently gentle to not rile up the population. Nevermind that I think UN RoE are usually too lenient for the level of hostilities we're seeing.
It's a mess. I don't see this conflict going anywhere for quite a while.
I never understood this idea that Israel both needs to completely eradicate Hamas at any cost but also if it wants to provide an actual solution to the Palestinians, it must do so in a manner that...
I never understood this idea that Israel both needs to completely eradicate Hamas at any cost but also if it wants to provide an actual solution to the Palestinians, it must do so in a manner that is respectful of Hamas’ current authority.
its difficult for me to imagine any other way in which one could be capable of simultaneously excusing what is happening in Gaza and also sincerely believing that the mere existence of Hamas means...
its difficult for me to imagine any other way in which one could be capable of simultaneously excusing what is happening in Gaza and also sincerely believing that the mere existence of Hamas means there’s literally no way to provide a meaningful solution to the people there.
Do Palestinians even have good relations or, Idk, "thoughts," with/about their Arab neighbors? I've always heard that the Arab nations in the region tend to use Palestinians for political...
There's no particular reason to believe that just because Arab neighbors are defining the details they'd be any more receptive to it.
Do Palestinians even have good relations or, Idk, "thoughts," with/about their Arab neighbors? I've always heard that the Arab nations in the region tend to use Palestinians for political purposes; the plight of Palestinians as a wedge issue or cudgel or like something to dangle in front of their subjects ("Look, we're helping Palestinians against evil Israel!"). Like when the wealthy Arab nations pledge money for rebuilding or aid or whatever, most of it doesn't actually show up.
If that's the case, then yeah, I can't see Palestinians being receptive. And hasn't this happened before where Israel and other countries basically agreed to a plan that didn't take into consideration Palestinians views on the matter?
Really tired of people acting like there is any meaningful way to assess the political will of a bunch of people living in a literal war zone. Or that this political will is set in stone and...
Really tired of people acting like there is any meaningful way to assess the political will of a bunch of people living in a literal war zone. Or that this political will is set in stone and unable to be changed. When the reality is if there is such a political will, then the actions of the neighbors certainly played a role, actions which the neighbors are not even willing to address and continue to engage in. In fact I think it’s evil.
Sometimes compromise is the best thing that can be achieved. The most important thing is normalization and cesation of fighting plus an actual vision of the future for the Palestinians that does...
Sometimes compromise is the best thing that can be achieved. The most important thing is normalization and cesation of fighting plus an actual vision of the future for the Palestinians that does not involve living under Israel's thumb. People who have an actual perspective of their life are usually less prone to supporting terrorist orgs like Hamas in escalating the situation further.
I personally think a one-state solution is the best option, but I am also realistic that the odds of a one-state solution are basically zero. I think frequent Israeli incursions into Palestinian...
I personally think a one-state solution is the best option, but I am also realistic that the odds of a one-state solution are basically zero. I think frequent Israeli incursions into Palestinian territory (even before Oct 7th using bulldozers and regularly blowing up civilian dwellings) as well as the rightwards drift of the Israeli state (where the finance minister says he wants to settle Gaza and said he is a "fascist homophobe") and the massive expansion of the illegal settlement program has made Palestinians less optimistic.
I think the Hamas attacks have made doing something inevitable, especially as the conflict is now spreading – to Yemen and now the Iranians are attacking the Pakistanis (which they can do because everyone has their hands full at the moment). The Arab states have a strong interest in peace, especially because their leadership are not particularly anti-Israeli whereas Arab popular support of Israel is basically 0%, and the Israelis carrying out their massacre in Gaza inflames sentiment and places them at risk. Hopefully Israel will try to work for peace as well, and allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state.
I would say that you aren't necessarily engaging in the best of faith here. I would think it's kind of clear that "Israel will allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state" refers to this...
I would say that you aren't necessarily engaging in the best of faith here. I would think it's kind of clear that "Israel will allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state" refers to this happening as part of a two state solution.
When I (as most one state supporters) say "one state solution" I mean a multi ethnic one with all the Jews and Palestinians currently living in Israel/Palestine. Not one where Israel is dissolved.
Sorry I think we're kind of talking past each other. I mean I think the best (but probably unachievable) option is to have a single state in which both Palestinians and Israelis can co-exist. This...
Sorry I think we're kind of talking past each other. I mean
I think the best (but probably unachievable) option is to have a single state in which both Palestinians and Israelis can co-exist. This will be very challenging given Hamas, the settlement program, the current Israeli government, attitudes in the Arab world, etc
the second-best (and most likely) option is to have two states, a Palestinian one and an Israeli one. However a Palestinian state will not be very meaningful if the Israelis continue to exercise significant control over it, regularly bomb places in the state, etc for "security" purposes.
I'm not arguing in bad faith?
I interpreted it that way because you quoted two parts of my comment separated by multiple sentences and I though you were kind of implying that I had said "one state solution = Palestinian state" (which I did not).
To me this reads more like a puff piece for Saudi Arabia. A lot of “we’re the adults in the room, we’re going to get everyone what they want.” But the Saudis don’t speak for Hamas, so I find it...
To me this reads more like a puff piece for Saudi Arabia. A lot of “we’re the adults in the room, we’re going to get everyone what they want.” But the Saudis don’t speak for Hamas, so I find it hard to believe they can deliver any of this. Do you have a different impression and reason to feel more hopeful?
Though I’m just reading your summary because of the paywall.
It's great that neighboring countries are working towards lasting peace. But I suppose the biggest caveat here is that Palestinians themselves do not actually want a 2-state solution. Maybe it will be forced upon them though?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/nov/04/israel-palestine-is-the-two-state-solution-the-answer-to-the-crisis
Neither Israel nor Palestine would really be OK with a two-state solution created by their neighbors. Israel would at minimum need to be assured that their new neighbor is an actual nation state that is acting in good faith and not just secretly (or not so secretly) plotting an invasion or more terrorism in the future. Palestinians have consistently expressed their disinterest in any solution that doesn't involve sovereignty over all of what they consider their historical territory. There's no particular reason to believe that just because Arab neighbors are defining the details they'd be any more receptive to it.
In the end, I don't think this is going anywhere.
I think the Palestinians would need a similar guarantee too – a Palestinian state won't work if the Israelis run regular military raids and use their targeted missile systems to blow people up while they eat dinner. I think the Palestinians would probably accept a viable state in the west bank (with all the settlers removed).
The thing is that the Palestinian position – that they would like the land that they were living on only 50-75 years ago back – is pretty reasonable. What the Palestinians say is also led by the fact that unlike Israel they are in a very vulnerable position and are fighting for their survival as a people. I support the Jewish right to self-determinition, but I also support the Palestinian one, and don't believe that either group is more deserving than the other.
This is not the same demand. The latter implies the existence of an israeli state, while stu2b50's assertion could quite feasibly imply the opposite.
I wonder if Israel never did the settlements how the Palestinian people would feel after a few generations. I wonder if they’d feel the same as they do now in a few generations if Israel stopped the settlements today. I wonder if Israel will ever stop the settlements…
It would help, but fundamentally both Gaza and Israel need a change of leadership before any kind of two state solution is possible. Gaza cannot be ruled by Hamas for there to be any chance of peace. Israel needs a liberal majority government, or at least not Netanyahu.
That and a lot of time. But that’s quite a lot of IFs, and there’s no obvious way for Gaza to change leadership to begin with.
I don't think a more liberal majority has a chance to manifest (on either side) as long as the security situation is so dire. Security threats have always been beneficial for conservative and militant politics. I'm going to continue to beat that old drum: Without an externally upheld peace, this conflict isn't going anywhere. Get peacekeepers into there that protect both sides from each other, and the wounds can start to heal. But no one has the appetite for that it seems; by the sounds of it, not even the arab neighbors.
Historically our "peacekeepers" have always run away at the first sign of violence. The UN bases along the Lebanon-Israel border are notorious for this, and honestly? I can't blame them. Both the Israelis and the terrorist groups around us wouldn't hesitate to go through them if they needed to.
Right. I too can't blame peacekeepers/nations from half a world a way to not put their lives on the line. The risk-reward situation just doesn't seem worth it. High risk of casualties, low chance of lasting success, and e.g. western states have little appetite for that kind of conflict. Previously, my hope was for regional powers to help out: An arab peacekeeping force in Gaza that is reasonably forceful against Hamas could've worked, as that keeps Israel from having to go over their heads, and at the same time is probably the one external peacekeeping force that palestinians are most willing to accept. Under cover of that force, Marshall plan the shit out of the palestinian territories. It seems though that e.g. Egypt or Saudi Arabia aren't exactly volunteering. Again, can't blame them. I doubt there's a possible middle ground of Rules of Engagement that are sufficiently forceful to keep peacekeepers safe but also sufficiently gentle to not rile up the population. Nevermind that I think UN RoE are usually too lenient for the level of hostilities we're seeing.
It's a mess. I don't see this conflict going anywhere for quite a while.
I never understood this idea that Israel both needs to completely eradicate Hamas at any cost but also if it wants to provide an actual solution to the Palestinians, it must do so in a manner that is respectful of Hamas’ current authority.
Does any single person hold both of those opinions or are those just two things that some separate people think?
its difficult for me to imagine any other way in which one could be capable of simultaneously excusing what is happening in Gaza and also sincerely believing that the mere existence of Hamas means there’s literally no way to provide a meaningful solution to the people there.
Do Palestinians even have good relations or, Idk, "thoughts," with/about their Arab neighbors? I've always heard that the Arab nations in the region tend to use Palestinians for political purposes; the plight of Palestinians as a wedge issue or cudgel or like something to dangle in front of their subjects ("Look, we're helping Palestinians against evil Israel!"). Like when the wealthy Arab nations pledge money for rebuilding or aid or whatever, most of it doesn't actually show up.
If that's the case, then yeah, I can't see Palestinians being receptive. And hasn't this happened before where Israel and other countries basically agreed to a plan that didn't take into consideration Palestinians views on the matter?
Really tired of people acting like there is any meaningful way to assess the political will of a bunch of people living in a literal war zone. Or that this political will is set in stone and unable to be changed. When the reality is if there is such a political will, then the actions of the neighbors certainly played a role, actions which the neighbors are not even willing to address and continue to engage in. In fact I think it’s evil.
Sometimes compromise is the best thing that can be achieved. The most important thing is normalization and cesation of fighting plus an actual vision of the future for the Palestinians that does not involve living under Israel's thumb. People who have an actual perspective of their life are usually less prone to supporting terrorist orgs like Hamas in escalating the situation further.
I personally think a one-state solution is the best option, but I am also realistic that the odds of a one-state solution are basically zero. I think frequent Israeli incursions into Palestinian territory (even before Oct 7th using bulldozers and regularly blowing up civilian dwellings) as well as the rightwards drift of the Israeli state (where the finance minister says he wants to settle Gaza and said he is a "fascist homophobe") and the massive expansion of the illegal settlement program has made Palestinians less optimistic.
I think the Hamas attacks have made doing something inevitable, especially as the conflict is now spreading – to Yemen and now the Iranians are attacking the Pakistanis (which they can do because everyone has their hands full at the moment). The Arab states have a strong interest in peace, especially because their leadership are not particularly anti-Israeli whereas Arab popular support of Israel is basically 0%, and the Israelis carrying out their massacre in Gaza inflames sentiment and places them at risk. Hopefully Israel will try to work for peace as well, and allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state.
I would say that you aren't necessarily engaging in the best of faith here. I would think it's kind of clear that "Israel will allow the creation of a viable Palestinian state" refers to this happening as part of a two state solution.
When I (as most one state supporters) say "one state solution" I mean a multi ethnic one with all the Jews and Palestinians currently living in Israel/Palestine. Not one where Israel is dissolved.
Sorry I think we're kind of talking past each other. I mean
I interpreted it that way because you quoted two parts of my comment separated by multiple sentences and I though you were kind of implying that I had said "one state solution = Palestinian state" (which I did not).
To me this reads more like a puff piece for Saudi Arabia. A lot of “we’re the adults in the room, we’re going to get everyone what they want.” But the Saudis don’t speak for Hamas, so I find it hard to believe they can deliver any of this. Do you have a different impression and reason to feel more hopeful?
Though I’m just reading your summary because of the paywall.
I think it's the Saudis would like the Israel/Palestine issue to go away very quickly so that it doesn't threaten The House of Saud.
Mirror, for those hit by the paywall:
https://archive.is/eOdUV