18
votes
Weekly Israel-Hamas war megathread - week of May 6
This thread is posted weekly - please try to post all relevant Israel-Hamas war content in here, such as news, updates, opinion articles, etc. Extremely significant events may warrant a separate topic, but almost all should be posted in here.
Please try to avoid antagonistic arguments and bickering matches. Comment threads that devolve into unproductive arguments may be removed so that the overall topic is able to continue.
“You Have Been Warned”: Republican Senators Threaten the ICC Prosecutor over Possible Israel Arrest Warrants
It's worrying the extent to which this is phrased like a physical threat.
This should not be a surprise to be honest.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members'_Protection_Act
Seems like an empty threat, unless Trump wins?
You say that, but Biden's attitude towards Israel's actions has been awfully supportive. He's scarcely done any pushback whatsoever, and pushed through funding for more weapons to be sent to them several times. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if he – while perhaps not actively pushing for it – was perfectly fine with allowing Republicans to go through with this.
The thing is, Congress couldn't actually do anything unless they passed a law, and I doubt they have the votes. So what sort of action would Biden want to put his name on? I doubt he wants to back Republicans up on their nonsense. It wouldn't play well with Democrats in an election year.
He could start by publicly calling for a ceasefire, or condemning the atrocities being committed. That would require only his voice. Besides, if I recall correctly, he sure managed to get weapons given to Israel without congressional approval just fine.
Biden has agency, and he is choosing deliberate inaction at best.
These criticisms don’t have anything to do with the question of whether Biden would cooperate with threats of retaliation against the ICC.
I’d thought the conversation had drifted some. My mistake.
Still, there's a point to be made here in that Biden is choosing not to help (and in many ways continue to harm) Palestine, because he would rather back Israel. If that’s what he does there, how could I trust him to do anything to help the ICC? From my perspective, he’s already decided to favor Netanyahu quite strongly.
Thanks!
I think the Biden administration’s position towards Israel is more nuanced than that. They’re still backing Israel, but maybe they’re also frustrated and annoyed with them?
For example, the US frequently uses its UN Security Council veto to support Israel. But in March, there was a UN resolution demanding an immediate cease fire in Gaza, and the US… abstained.
That’s hardly the same as a public call for a ceasefire. The US denied that it was a shift in their policy! But I don’t think anyone believes that denial, least of all Israel. It seems to be a rather common diplomatic move, to do something and deny that you’re doing it.
Why would the Biden administration do that, instead of being open about it? Publicly calling for a ceasefire would play well with many Democrats, and it’s an election year.
It seems pretty clear that the Biden administration wants a ceasefire. Perhaps they don’t think that publicly calling for one would do what outsiders think it would do. Maybe the goal is to actually get a ceasefire, not to go on the record as wanting one? Somehow they don’t seem to think that being straightforward about it is the way to go.
Assuming people mean what they say is certainly a lot simpler, but I don’t think it applies in tricky diplomatic negotiations like this. So we end up speculating a lot about what they’re really up to, and could easily get it wrong. Maybe someday we’ll find out the truth in a historical account.
Israeli leaders have approved a military operation into the Gaza Strip city of Rafah
Conveniently also, Israel orders Al Jazeera to close its local operation and seizes some of its equipment
Hamas says it accepted ceasefire proposal
But not Israel’s actual proposal, some other thing
In effect, Hamas has offered their own ceasefire proposal.
Article title:
A bit into the article, from White House spokesperson John Kirby:
Last I checked, Qatar, Egypt and the director of the CIA weren't "Hamas."
Sounds like a good deal to me. Though, frankly, I think Israel should just stop bombing Gaza generally, with or without a deal, so I'd be in favor of a ceasefire regardless.
That deal, for first stage of the exchange, allows Hamas to provide either living hostages, or dead bodies. Meaning, they lack any incentives to keep that category of hostages alive.
That alone would have been enough to sink this "deal".
I’d suggest you maybe not interpret the sparse, vague information we have as though it were a legal document? We don’t have the exact text in front of us. The quote I provided itself says this was only the “broad contours” of the proposal.
That said, acting like Hamas would shoot the hostages before handing them over is patently ridiculous. Regardless of the wording, Israel would immediately back out of the deal in such a scenario, and all involved parties would know that.
If you’re worried about the safety of hostages, a better thing to be concerned about might be the fact that Israel is seemingly doing everything it can to avoid a ceasefire, even as it bombs the areas the hostages are likely being kept in.
It's wild that we've normalized the idea that anyone outside of the State Department or POTUS or VPOTUS is doing any amount of diplomacy. When the CIA was created, this was not their mandate. This is not healthy, not beneficial, and looking at historical and recent examples, doesn't seem to work towards solutions involving a lasting peace. There have been some fairly recent books talking about foreign policy failures in Vietnam and Afghanistan and some of that foreign policy was conducted by agencies not tasked with, or capable of, diplomacy and only looked at projecting foreign policy through their fixed lens.
To “accept” a ceasefire proposal presupposes it is actually on the table. This was not. Hamas is offering a proposal to Israel, that they have workshopped with Egypt, Qatar, and the CIA. Nothing has been “accepted” in any meaningful sense.
This is pointless semantics. The important factor is this: A careful ceasefire proposal was offered, supported by several countries and organizations, and Israel rejected it anyway. I corrected what I saw not for the sake of technicality, but because it absolves Israel of its callous rejection of an opportunity for peace by implying the proposal to be a farce.
Israel does not want a ceasefire.
Israel offered ceasefire terms of their own and Hamas rejected them. Why does Hamas get a pass and Israel doesn’t? Hamas can get a ceasefire any time they want by simply releasing all the people they kidnapped.
Yeah, I'm sure Israel, the country that's currently committing war crimes by the bucket, is offering excellent ceasefires that anybody would accept.
Look, I criticize Israel and not Hamas because Hamas is not currently bombing an entire country to the point of ethnic cleansing. They physically can't do what Israel is doing. Israel is under a moral obligation to stop murdering civilians, and so it is their failing that a ceasefire has not occurred. I would be happy if Hamas were open to more kinds of ceasefires, but it's Israel who I distrust to adhere to human decency. This is because Israel is the government best poised to violate it, and – as the last several months have shown – Israel is scarcely held accountable for its actions.
Besides, have you seen how Israel's spokesman and supporters in the country talk about this? They literally refer to Palestinians as "human animals," and claim incessantly that there are "no innocents" and that everyone in Gaza must be killed. Why is it the IDF you're worried about defending online?
(edits: tone, elaboration. Trying not to come off as hostile, but this topic isn't an easy one.)
This entire situation happened because Hamas murdered and kidnapped hundreds of people. It's continuing because Hamas hasn't released them. Hamas can stop this literally any time they want, but they are choosing not to.
Israel has an obligation to its citizens to recover hostages and minimize future attacks. Stopping fighting does exactly nothing to help that goal, and just gives Hamas time to rearm and commit another atrocity.
Hamas also has an obligation to its citizens -- keep in mind they are the elected government of Gaza -- but they are not fulfilling that obligation and are instead doing the exact opposite, by holding and killing hostages while knowing that as long as they refuse to release the hostages, Israel will continue attacking. Every action Hamas takes hurts Palestinians, who they should be helping instead.
Do you think this all started on October 7th, and nothing came before? Israel has been abusing the people of Palestine for over 70 years now. If you're interested in hearing more, I'd really recommend watching this documentary. It covers a small portion of what happened — namely the Gaza border protests. But suffice to say: Israel is and always was a colonial state. It stole land, and killed the native population to enforce such. It has continued to do so for decades since, stealing yet more land over the years. In modern times, Palestinians are second-class citizens in even their own country, as Israel controls access to food, water, electricity, and every border crossing.
If anyone acted first, it was Israel and its allies. Hamas, and organizations like it, awful though they are, are the result of decades of abuse.
I've said it elsewhere in this thread, but nothing Israel is doing is accomplishing either of these goals. All it serves to do is ruin their international reputation, further push the people of Gaza into supporting Hamas (as their choice increasingly becomes "fight or die"), risks the lives of the hostages by way of collateral damage, and last but not least, murders innocents en masse.
The last election in Gaza was held in 2006. That is not legitimate governance.
Judging by the past, Israel would continue attacking for some time anyways, and even after they stopped, would still be committing horrible human rights abuses.
Hamas does not have the power to stop Israel in any way. I firmly believe Hamas should release the hostages regardless, out of simple respect for human life if nothing else. But I do not think for a second that Israel would stop killing innocents in response.
Israel also has an obligation to protect the citizens in the territories they occupy. They don't need to stop fighting hamas to do. I don't think anybody in the world cares if they kill hamas fighters. Why do you think that returning hostages would end the violence? I'm genuinely curious. Everything I've heard and seen from any israeli government person is that the fighting would continue after hostages were exchanged. Have you seen otherwise?
That seems a bit disingenuous. Netanyahu has been more than clear that there is not going to be a cessation of fighting after any hostage exchange. Every single version of the proposed cease fires so far included that the pause in fighting would be temporary, and would resume no matter what.
I’m wondering what’s known about the hostages. How many are left? Are they still alive?
My guess would be not very many are alive, or Hamas wouldn’t be playing these games about giving back dead bodies instead of live hostages. They’re running low on leverage.
In any event, according to wikipedia there are only 132 possible hostages left to return.
The fact that Israel is indiscriminately bombing where the hostages are being held has also probably not been upping their chances at survival.
Israel does not want a ceasefire under conditions that will lead to another October 7th the next time they've made movements towards peace that Gaza seems be responding to and don't have enough soldiers supervising the border.
Frankly, it's a standpoint I understand. The Gilad Shalit deal released Sinwar and a thousand others, many of whom who went on to murder, not just combatants, but Israeli civilians. Israel, if it wishes to continue as a state, cannot continue to incentivise Hamas to take hostages by prioritizing their rescue above all else. It's unfortunate, it's fucked up, and it's reality. There are reasons (beyond the cruelty) that the laws of war prohibit taking hostages, and one of those is because the bartering over their lives provides political value in exchange for the destruction the sort of unbalanced war that Hamas provoked. All at the cost of Palestinian civilians, who we can agree have suffered the brunt.
For all Israel's current administration is not particularly interested in peace, even assuming Hamas is working towards peace in good faith, there are elements in Gaza and the West Bank (particularly the Muslim Brotherhood associated Palestinian Islamic Jihad) who also have no intention for a permanent peace with a Jewish state as its neighbor. So Israel continues its campaign in order to try and exact a high enough cost that what they will eventually give in exchange for the hostages won't be viewed as "worth it" in hindsight.
So the answer is to... what? Kill everybody in Gaza, including the hostages? Because that's what they're doing.
What they're also doing is massively incentivizing the people they're hurting to join Hamas. That's what you do when you back people into a corner and give them no option but death: They join the nearest resistance movement they can, even if it's nasty as hell. Honestly, I'm impressed (and glad) at how many Palestinians are still critical of Hamas after all this.
It's worth noting by the way that, before October 7th, conditions in Gaza still weren't good. It was and still is described as an "open-air prison" for a reason. And Gazans tried to remedy this peacefully. A protest in 2018-2019 sought to get Israel to back off and stop abusing the people of Gaza, and Israel responded with snipers on everyone from medics to children. Israel's government was never interested in peace.
This will absolutely never work. Not only does deterrence virtually never work anywhere to begin with, it also presumes that those being deterred would care about the punishment. I think it's safe to say Hamas is more than willing to sacrifice Palestinian lives to accomplish its goals. Also, this is collective punishment, which is a war crime.
This seems a bit confused between what a ceasefire and a peace treaty does. A ceasefire isn't a peace treaty and doesn't make anything permanent. It might lead to a peace treaty, though.
It's a pipe dream anyway. I suppose they are hoping for something like the peace treaty like they have with Egypt, but they're not negotiating with a state. Future terrorists can't be held to agreements made now, and we can be sure that today's suffering will result in future terrorism.
I think it's pretty clear that neither the Israeli government nor Hamas are negotiating in good-faith here; neither party wants a ceasefire.
It's an odd situation: there is significant international pressure on both sides to continue negotiations, but it's harder to apply pressure to agree a deal, since each side can blame the other for being unreasonable.
This is true, but the way I see it, as I've articulated in another comment a bit ago, is that Israel is the one who's responsibility it is to get a ceasefire to happen. This is for two reasons:
Hamas has done awful things; October 7th is no minor matter. But they aren't engaging in mass-scale collective punishment, nor are they even remotely capable (let alone attempting) to obliterate an entire nation. Israel is the one in power, here, and the one doing virtually all of the murdering now. It is on them to stop. If they want the hostages back – and I'll be frank with you, I don't think Netanyahu gives a damn – the best way to do that is to not raze the city they're in.
That's a bit unfair though. Regardless of who's doing what in the conflict, a ceasefire would involve some kind of agreement between both parties. So unless both sides are working towards that it's not going to happen. Solely putting the responsibility on the Israelis is then unfair.
Giving both sides equal responsibility for ending the genocide is not really equitable. They could stop the genocide and still fight hamas. They don't need any sort of ceasefire deal to stop targeting places that have civilians in them. They are absolutely 100% responsible for what they are doing.
But that's a different matter than a ceasefire. A ceasefire requires both sides
‘If they go into Rafah, I’m not going to be supplying the weapons,’ Biden says.
Israeli military takes control of vital Rafah crossing from Gaza into Egypt (Reuters)
...
U.S. delays arms shipments to Israel amid Rafah tensions (Washington Post)
…
‘Didn’t fall from the sky’: Biden threat follows months of feeling PM ignored his warnings (The Times of Israel)
…
…
…
…
…
This is old news but I personally missed it, so I wanted to share here:
Unrwa Jerusalem HQ closed after ‘Israeli extremist’ arson attack - https://www.theguardian.com/global-development/article/2024/may/09/unrwa-jerusalem-hq-closed-after-israeli-extremist-arson-attack
Why Biden finally decided to speak out on college protest violence (Politico)
U.S. offers Israel intelligence, supplies in effort to avoid Rafah invasion (Washington Post)
…
I Was Once a Student Protester. The Old Hyperbole Is Now Reality. - Zeynep Tufekci - New York Times -
Gift Link
…
…
…
…
Masha Gessen, whose essay on the Israel-Palestine conflict from the perspective of contemporary Europe caused some controversy late last year, was on Haaretz Podcast this week. It was as refreshing and clear eyed as you'd expect from them. It's worth a listen, if you have the time.
Shibboleth - Zadie Smith in the New Yorker - archive
I thought this essay interesting because it has clearly stated ethical principles that might sound good at first, but are foreign to my own:
I'm struck by the importance of symbolism in this ethics. I don't really believe in utilitarianism in the sense that I don't think that making a spreadsheet and plugging numbers into it would be useful. But, I do believe in weighing costs against benefits in some way. Actions need to have some chance of success. I'm willing to take getting publicity as a real-world action, but it seems like you should know what you're going tell people once you have their attention.
By contrast, this ethics seems to be about real costs and symbolic benefits? The "gears" are rhetorical gears in a giant worldwide metaphorical machine. The connections between different parts of the system aren't really dwelled upon.
And it seems like that's how you get people blocking traffic about something happening on the far side of the world?
Smith calls herself weak for being unwilling to get arrested over climate change:
Visiting New York City is important to me only to visit family. I'd be unwilling to give that up either. But I wouldn't even consider it unless the result seemed "worth it" in some respect.
This language seems very disconnected from the actual reality of the current student protests. The current student protestors are largely making very specific demands of their universities. They want them to divest from financially supporting Israel. At some universities they have succeeded at this goal.
I consider divestment to be a symbolic action taken by a university. It probably isn’t going to affect the behind-the-scenes negotiations between the Biden administration and the Israeli government.
I suppose any protest can be dismissed as purely symbolic if you ignore the practical demands the people protesting are making of the institutions they're protesting.
I’ve generally assumed that this is all about helping people in Gaza. But maybe I’m wrong about that?
It can be about more than one thing at once. But you’d have to ask the students about that. Though I am confident helping Gazans (and stopping Israel’s atrocities) is indeed the primary goal.
Personally, I find divestment wholly insufficient on its own. But I suspect the students asking only for that feel they wouldn’t be able to accomplish anything bigger. Which I would not agree with, but I would understand — they’ve already faced a lot of pushback as is, after all.
Yes, that’s how I see it too.
Not sending your tuition money to the country that is currently bombing Gaza seems pretty concrete to me. The degree to which that helps Gaza can be debated, of course, but it probably helps about as much as anything else a college student can do right now aside from direct donations to families trying to flee Gaza (which is, of course, not something that's mutually exclusive with protesting).
Investors do sometimes fund growing businesses. For example, VC’s fund startups. But for profitable businesses, the money flows in the opposite direction, from the business to investors, through dividends and stock buybacks.
So it seems like thinking of your tuition money as flowing to Israel is likely mostly an act of imagination. One could just as easily imagine the college getting a small amount of its funding from Israeli businesses. As a symbolic connection, maybe that’s equally objectionable?
What happens for any given college’s investments? We would need to dive into the details to see. I would guess that on average, foreign investments are a fairly small percentage, Israeli investments are a tiny chunk of those, and they’re mostly profitable businesses. Under those assumptions, direct donations would make a much bigger difference. But it would be interesting to see someone do the analysis for real.
I definitely agree that direct donations are the most effective. But given that direct donations and protests are not mutually exclusive in any way, I'm not particularly sure comparing them is relevant -- especially for college students who have more time than money.
My understanding is that these campaigns are not just "don't invest in Israeli companies" but "don't do business with companies that do business with Israel", sometimes more specifically targeting companies that contribute the Israeli military. The idea being that if enough consumers and companies are pressured into boycotting and divesting from such businesses, it'll make doing business with Israel and specifically helping the Israeli military toxic for businesses, who will cut ties out of the usual self-interest.
It remains to be seen how effective such divestment actually is in the current situation, especially since the US government is still providing plenty of military aid to Israel. But the concept is certainly not without precedent, as international divestment and sanctions against apartheid South Africa did prove quite effective.
Once we're talking about government sanctions, I think that's enough to make an impact - though, Cuba is still communist, and Iran keeps doing what Iran does. Sanctions can be undermined by other governments, but the US has a good chance of enforcing them through the banking system, as we're seeing with Russia. It doesn't stop other countries from trading, but it makes trade more difficult and expensive.
It's difficult to do this without government enforcement. If some investors divest from military contractors, they will sell to others who get the benefits of ownership instead, and maybe the new owners are pro-Israeli? Matt Levine often writes about such dilemmas that happen with EGS investing for climate change.
Getting US government support for this would require more consensus about Israel in Congress than the US has so far. The Biden administration's pressure on Israel is more direct, but perhaps Israel won't be deterred. Deterrence fails quite a lot in the Middle East, it seems.
More international support for sanctions could yet happen if things keep getting worse. (Turkey has halted all trade with Israel.)