I find this type of writing incredibly frustrating because the European conservative positions raised are the exact same ones made by conservative leaders in every Muslim community, about other...
Exemplary
I find this type of writing incredibly frustrating because the European conservative positions raised are the exact same ones made by conservative leaders in every Muslim community, about other Muslims. It's a big reason why I don't consider myself part of the faith any longer. Despite all the PR of one big happy, united Muslim ummah (minus the Shiah's and reformists), people have a lot to say about every other Muslim group. Hell, I thought it was good that my little community was overly fundamentalist until I traveled through Islamic countries and learned that the religious identity is practically worthless.
So I don't disagree with the premise of the article. Muslims are the current scapegoat for deeper seeded issues and if poor leaders keep building up the tension, it could lead to some horrific outcomes for innocent people. But I believe a big reason this has become so prevalent is the complete lack of Muslim solidarity and identity.
Consider the overall Jewish identity. Antisemitism is still alive and well. But unlike the early 1900's, there is a steep cost to openly practicing it. For all the horrific things the Israeli government is doing, they justify it by making an attack on one Jew, an attack on all Jews. And there are enough Jewish organizations, professional/industry forums and advocacy groups will put enough pressure and incentives in the right places. No, the world is not run by a secret Hebrew cabal. It's a community that looks out for each other for mutual benefit. I'm sure there's plenty of internal disagreement and strife. But in my experience, Jewish people are mostly Jewish first in behavior and attitude towards each other.
In stark contrast, what is the Muslim identity. Because in my lifetime, I've not seen anyone appeal to their shared Islamic faith to reach any common ground. Be it in petty local politics to entire nations willing to wipe each other out for the right price. The Saudi/UAE region is the shining example of this. As holiest land in the faith, their is an open contempt to any and all outsiders. They'll happily take you money and labor, but you will never be welcome as a Muslim because they are strictly Arab first. A lot of Islamaphobes I've spoken to take major issue with the billions thrown at vanity projects and wonder why these incredibly wealthy Muslim countries are not taking in all the migrants and refugees.
And this same attitude sort of applies everywhere. I'm from a Muslim minority country, but there is a notable divide between Indian, Pakistani, Bengali, Ethiopian, Malawian, Turkish, Malay and any other divide you can think of. Like I grew up walking distance from 3 mosques, but we would still drive to the "right one".
The way I see it: in a persons hierarchy of identities, Muslims sort of pretend that Islam is at the top. But it often superseded because the identity is only surface level rituals and lip service. The identity has been devalued and that makes it a poor investment of our time/effort as well as an easy target. It's why I think so many Muslims turn to extremes. They either recognize the futility of the label and turn away from it. It explains why privileged Muslims don't really seem to care about the faith and behave counter to it.
Or they're true believers that can't reconcile why others don't value their faith in the same way and try act out to correct that misalignment. It's what makes so many struggling Muslims are susceptible to fundamentalist and extremist views.
The point of this little breakdown is that I don't think this is a black or white issue. The Muslim identity is only a part of this and I don't even have the perspective of an immigrant. I'm not even scratching at the ideas of the European Identity vs Local Identity vs Americanization/Globalization, the horrible and unresolved outcomes on all the Middle Eastern Wars and the area flashing back up, the migrant crisis, Imperial colonialism, Russia, Inflation, Income inequality, Climate change, Corporate interests, Biased media and propaganda, Perverse incentives of social media and the myriad other things that would drive people to extreme views. It's easy to tell people to act in a rational, moral and ethical way.
But there is tremendous pressure put on everyone from all sides about issues they have no control over. And it always seems to come down to poor leadership being grossly unable to shoulder and any of these issues while effectively preparing for the future. Western leaders sold out the public to corporate and private interest in the name of arbitrary economic indicators and capital. Muslim leaders sunk the name of the religion for personal, national and political gain. End result, everyone is in the shit, except the few people who made it.
There's an interesting documentary about the anti-immigrant/far-right movement in England that it's starting to become a similar reality in parts of the mainland.
For what it's worth, Christians are hardly as united as they appear either. Growing up Protestant, I was taught that Catholics aren't real Christians, and we should distrust them because they...
Like I grew up walking distance from 3 mosques, but we would still drive to the "right one".
For what it's worth, Christians are hardly as united as they appear either. Growing up Protestant, I was taught that Catholics aren't real Christians, and we should distrust them because they worship the wrong way and follow secret instructions from the Pope. There many other branches of Protestantism that're also at odds with each other socially and theologically. The history of Abrahamic religions is long and extremely messy.
Yeah, growing up in Scotland it's very obvious to everyone here how much of a shitstain Sectarianism and sectarian violence is, especially in Glasgow. Protestants and Catholics, villifying, hating...
Yeah, growing up in Scotland it's very obvious to everyone here how much of a shitstain Sectarianism and sectarian violence is, especially in Glasgow.
Protestants and Catholics, villifying, hating and committing violence against one another because of what flavour of Christianity they follow/if they're Republicans or Monarchists/whether they support Rangers FC or Celtic FC. (I can tell you a majority of the sectarian violence in Scotland is due to what football team people support).
It's ugly, kids being raised to think the other side are worse than animals, areas of the city you wouldn't dare set foot in wearing blue or green.
I've even got a friend who makes cakes for a living and she had someone request a cake for their 4 or 5 year olds birthday. They wanted an icing likeness of their child playing football on top of the cake and asked for the icing grass to be blue because they're a Rangers house and they can't have the colour green on a birthday cake, it's bonkers, these people's brains are mush.
Even among branches there are thousands of micro-branches. The tiny mountain town I grew up in had several more churches than you’d expect for its extremely small population and most of them were...
Even among branches there are thousands of micro-branches. The tiny mountain town I grew up in had several more churches than you’d expect for its extremely small population and most of them were Baptist with a grab bag of tiny differences in interpretation of the texts.
It's not really apples to apples. Jews are unique in that it's a religion and an ethnicity - and not a very big one, by populations. In comparison, Muslims don't have a common identity because......
But in my experience, Jewish people are mostly Jewish first in behavior and attitude towards each other.
In stark contrast, what is the Muslim identity. Because in my lifetime, I've not seen anyone appeal to their shared Islamic faith to reach any common ground
It's not really apples to apples. Jews are unique in that it's a religion and an ethnicity - and not a very big one, by populations. In comparison, Muslims don't have a common identity because... there isn't one. How could there be, when it's a religion that spans many ethnicities and countries?
Someone from Turkey, someone from Saudi Arabia, someone from Pakistan, someone from Indonesia all come from Muslim majority countries (and two are essentially theocracies), but are not remotely the same in the language they speak, their customs, what they eat, and so forth.
Genuine question for the ignorant: does the ethnicity portion extend to non-European groups like the Ethiopian jews? I often hear that Judaism is ethnicity and have a hard time understanding how...
Genuine question for the ignorant: does the ethnicity portion extend to non-European groups like the Ethiopian jews?
I often hear that Judaism is ethnicity and have a hard time understanding how Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Iraqi, etc all fall under the same umbrella. To me it seems Muslims, Christians, etc have the same kind of break down where there are the sub-types within the religion (Catholic, Shia, Hasidic) and the ethnic group (Southern, Malay, Ashkenazi) they are composed of. Like, I'm going to a Hanukkah party tomorrow and there was hot debate between bringing latkes or jelly doughnuts based on familial background, so it seems like there are different cultural customs? I'm obviously an outsider so I kept clear of that one and am bringing bottle of kosher wine ;)
Yes, they are descendents of the Jewish diaspora that migrated to that part of Africa in ~14th century. The difference is that you can convert to Islam, you can convert to Christianity. You can't...
does the ethnicity portion extend to non-European groups like the Ethiopian jews?
Yes, they are descendents of the Jewish diaspora that migrated to that part of Africa in ~14th century.
To me it seems Muslims, Christians, etc have the same kind of break down where there are the sub-types within the religion (Catholic, Shia, Hasidic) and the ethnic group (Southern, Malay, Ashkenazi) they are composed of.
The difference is that you can convert to Islam, you can convert to Christianity. You can't convert to Judaism (if you're not of Jewish descent). Jews do not expect non-jews to believe in their God, or follow their rites. Jews will not try to convert people who are not of Jewish descent. Judaism is entirely concerned about those of Jewish descent. And, of course, all the jews do share common ethnic ancestry.
Because of inter-marriage, the various segments of the Jewish diaspora have started to have different phenotypes, but they still come from a common ancestor.
That's different from, say, Ethiopian Christians and French Catholics, who are just two different ethnic groups that converted to Christianity, but otherwise have nothing in particular to do with each other (apart from the common ancestry that all humans share).
For some clarity, there is a conversion process for Judaism (varying depending on which movement one is in) but they don't seek out converts and it is not a simple or short process in any of them...
For some clarity, there is a conversion process for Judaism (varying depending on which movement one is in) but they don't seek out converts and it is not a simple or short process in any of them to my understanding.
/Not Jewish just know a few converts who are quite religious.
There are absolutely converts to Judaism, so it's not strictly true that all Jews share an common lineage. Just because they don't seek converts like Christians or Muslims doesn't mean they don't...
There are absolutely converts to Judaism, so it's not strictly true that all Jews share an common lineage. Just because they don't seek converts like Christians or Muslims doesn't mean they don't happen, after all. I follow some converts to Judaism on other social media sites and they have interesting perspectives. My understanding from them is that, theologically, converts are not supposed to be considered any different than those born Jewish once they've converted -- including that their kids are considered Jewish under the same sets of circumstances (though which circumstances those are is a longstanding subject of disagreement iirc). Circumstances like these are where the line between ethnicity and religion gets particularly blurry.
(EDIT: misread some of the comment, so striking out the bit that was written under that misunderstanding) I also think you're just not well-positioned to understand the conflicts within another...
(EDIT: misread some of the comment, so striking out the bit that was written under that misunderstanding)
> well. But unlike the early 1900's, there is a steep cost to openly practicing it.
I think your understanding of the history of Jews in Europe is extremely limited if you think there was not a steep cost to openly practicing Judaism in the early 1900s. Antisemitism is still a big deal but this idea is utterly ahistorical.
I also think you're just not well-positioned to understand the conflicts within another faith because you have way less experience with them than with the faith you grew up with. Most of the internal conflicts you describe within Islam are very similar to the internal conflicts within the Christianity I grew up with -- while they're probably not theologically similar, the in-group behavior and insistence that other groups are doing it wrong because they disagree on some doctrinal minutiae. My pastor when I was still an evangelical Christian used to joke that evangelicals split and form a new denomination when they disagree on the color of the church's carpet. And the view of their own point of view as superior is definitely there with Christianity. I grew up believing that mainline Protestants were fake Christians because they didn't believe all the same things as we did. I know less about Judaism's specific divides because I didn't grow up Jewish, but I know they also have divisions between sects on a number of topics.
It's not unique to one religion or the other to have theological/philosophical divides like this. I think it's, at least to some extent, human nature. Hang out with some leftists and you'll find out it's not even limited to religion!
I think you're misreading it, and "it" refers not to judaism but antisemitism. As in, today there's a steep cost to openly practicing antisemitism, but in the 1900s public antisemitism was much...
I think your understanding of the history of Jews in Europe is extremely limited if you think there was not a steep cost to openly practicing Judaism in the early 1900s. Antisemitism is still a big deal but this idea is utterly ahistorical.
I think you're misreading it, and "it" refers not to judaism but antisemitism. As in, today there's a steep cost to openly practicing antisemitism, but in the 1900s public antisemitism was much more tolerated.
It can be both. And if I understood the comment above correctly, it's also hypocrisy. Not all, but some want one thing from where they're living and then want to do the exact same thing to others....
It can be both. And if I understood the comment above correctly, it's also hypocrisy. Not all, but some want one thing from where they're living and then want to do the exact same thing to others. Or they want one thing while simultaneously doing another thing that truly isn't in line with the country they live in - be it new refugees or the 2nd and 3rd generations.
This is extremely palpable here in Europe even for me, a white American with no Muslim background. I can only imagine how much worse it must be to personally experience it, and unfortunately I...
Again and again, European governments instruct us to integrate: come in, step out of the shadows and join the sunny European mainstream. We should be less “foreign”, more European, adopt “European values” (just which ones is left unclear, but drinking beer and eating pork seem to be among them), get an education and then – and only then – actively participate in the political, economic and social life of our “host societies” which, according to Hungary’s Viktor Orbán, are purely Christian.
The subtext is that there is no longer a distinction between bad and good Muslims. Those who are part of the mainstream are just as much of a problem as those who are supposedly unadapted and antisocial.
In the EU’s Brussels bubble, an influential communications specialist tells me that Muslims struggle to be accepted. “No matter how well somebody speaks the language, gets the degrees, adopts the right dress codes, some opportunistic politician will point to something and declare it an ‘ethnic quirk’ that is incompatible with European values.”
All of this is depressing enough, but the debate on European Muslims – and not just among far-right politicians – has taken on even darker undertones. The accusations of Muslims being permanent outsiders are a new version of what was once said about Europe’s Jews. “Now it is the Muslims who are accused of not fitting in, who have become ‘the other’ to Europe,” agrees Farid Hafez, the Austrian political scientist. “It is like we are Europe’s new Jews,” the human rights activist Shaza Alrihawi, who lives in Germany, tells me.
This is extremely palpable here in Europe even for me, a white American with no Muslim background. I can only imagine how much worse it must be to personally experience it, and unfortunately I worry it'll only get worse before it gets better.
I find this type of writing incredibly frustrating because the European conservative positions raised are the exact same ones made by conservative leaders in every Muslim community, about other Muslims. It's a big reason why I don't consider myself part of the faith any longer. Despite all the PR of one big happy, united Muslim ummah (minus the Shiah's and reformists), people have a lot to say about every other Muslim group. Hell, I thought it was good that my little community was overly fundamentalist until I traveled through Islamic countries and learned that the religious identity is practically worthless.
So I don't disagree with the premise of the article. Muslims are the current scapegoat for deeper seeded issues and if poor leaders keep building up the tension, it could lead to some horrific outcomes for innocent people. But I believe a big reason this has become so prevalent is the complete lack of Muslim solidarity and identity.
Consider the overall Jewish identity. Antisemitism is still alive and well. But unlike the early 1900's, there is a steep cost to openly practicing it. For all the horrific things the Israeli government is doing, they justify it by making an attack on one Jew, an attack on all Jews. And there are enough Jewish organizations, professional/industry forums and advocacy groups will put enough pressure and incentives in the right places. No, the world is not run by a secret Hebrew cabal. It's a community that looks out for each other for mutual benefit. I'm sure there's plenty of internal disagreement and strife. But in my experience, Jewish people are mostly Jewish first in behavior and attitude towards each other.
In stark contrast, what is the Muslim identity. Because in my lifetime, I've not seen anyone appeal to their shared Islamic faith to reach any common ground. Be it in petty local politics to entire nations willing to wipe each other out for the right price. The Saudi/UAE region is the shining example of this. As holiest land in the faith, their is an open contempt to any and all outsiders. They'll happily take you money and labor, but you will never be welcome as a Muslim because they are strictly Arab first. A lot of Islamaphobes I've spoken to take major issue with the billions thrown at vanity projects and wonder why these incredibly wealthy Muslim countries are not taking in all the migrants and refugees.
And this same attitude sort of applies everywhere. I'm from a Muslim minority country, but there is a notable divide between Indian, Pakistani, Bengali, Ethiopian, Malawian, Turkish, Malay and any other divide you can think of. Like I grew up walking distance from 3 mosques, but we would still drive to the "right one".
The way I see it: in a persons hierarchy of identities, Muslims sort of pretend that Islam is at the top. But it often superseded because the identity is only surface level rituals and lip service. The identity has been devalued and that makes it a poor investment of our time/effort as well as an easy target. It's why I think so many Muslims turn to extremes. They either recognize the futility of the label and turn away from it. It explains why privileged Muslims don't really seem to care about the faith and behave counter to it.
Or they're true believers that can't reconcile why others don't value their faith in the same way and try act out to correct that misalignment. It's what makes so many struggling Muslims are susceptible to fundamentalist and extremist views.
The point of this little breakdown is that I don't think this is a black or white issue. The Muslim identity is only a part of this and I don't even have the perspective of an immigrant. I'm not even scratching at the ideas of the European Identity vs Local Identity vs Americanization/Globalization, the horrible and unresolved outcomes on all the Middle Eastern Wars and the area flashing back up, the migrant crisis, Imperial colonialism, Russia, Inflation, Income inequality, Climate change, Corporate interests, Biased media and propaganda, Perverse incentives of social media and the myriad other things that would drive people to extreme views. It's easy to tell people to act in a rational, moral and ethical way.
But there is tremendous pressure put on everyone from all sides about issues they have no control over. And it always seems to come down to poor leadership being grossly unable to shoulder and any of these issues while effectively preparing for the future. Western leaders sold out the public to corporate and private interest in the name of arbitrary economic indicators and capital. Muslim leaders sunk the name of the religion for personal, national and political gain. End result, everyone is in the shit, except the few people who made it.
There's an interesting documentary about the anti-immigrant/far-right movement in England that it's starting to become a similar reality in parts of the mainland.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlncZp1iJks
For what it's worth, Christians are hardly as united as they appear either. Growing up Protestant, I was taught that Catholics aren't real Christians, and we should distrust them because they worship the wrong way and follow secret instructions from the Pope. There many other branches of Protestantism that're also at odds with each other socially and theologically. The history of Abrahamic religions is long and extremely messy.
Yeah, growing up in Scotland it's very obvious to everyone here how much of a shitstain Sectarianism and sectarian violence is, especially in Glasgow.
Protestants and Catholics, villifying, hating and committing violence against one another because of what flavour of Christianity they follow/if they're Republicans or Monarchists/whether they support Rangers FC or Celtic FC. (I can tell you a majority of the sectarian violence in Scotland is due to what football team people support).
It's ugly, kids being raised to think the other side are worse than animals, areas of the city you wouldn't dare set foot in wearing blue or green.
I've even got a friend who makes cakes for a living and she had someone request a cake for their 4 or 5 year olds birthday. They wanted an icing likeness of their child playing football on top of the cake and asked for the icing grass to be blue because they're a Rangers house and they can't have the colour green on a birthday cake, it's bonkers, these people's brains are mush.
Even among branches there are thousands of micro-branches. The tiny mountain town I grew up in had several more churches than you’d expect for its extremely small population and most of them were Baptist with a grab bag of tiny differences in interpretation of the texts.
And the best part is that the members either don't know the differences or at least chose a church before knowing the differences.
It's not really apples to apples. Jews are unique in that it's a religion and an ethnicity - and not a very big one, by populations. In comparison, Muslims don't have a common identity because... there isn't one. How could there be, when it's a religion that spans many ethnicities and countries?
Someone from Turkey, someone from Saudi Arabia, someone from Pakistan, someone from Indonesia all come from Muslim majority countries (and two are essentially theocracies), but are not remotely the same in the language they speak, their customs, what they eat, and so forth.
Genuine question for the ignorant: does the ethnicity portion extend to non-European groups like the Ethiopian jews?
I often hear that Judaism is ethnicity and have a hard time understanding how Ashkenazi, Sephardic, Iraqi, etc all fall under the same umbrella. To me it seems Muslims, Christians, etc have the same kind of break down where there are the sub-types within the religion (Catholic, Shia, Hasidic) and the ethnic group (Southern, Malay, Ashkenazi) they are composed of. Like, I'm going to a Hanukkah party tomorrow and there was hot debate between bringing latkes or jelly doughnuts based on familial background, so it seems like there are different cultural customs? I'm obviously an outsider so I kept clear of that one and am bringing bottle of kosher wine ;)
Totally up for learning why this isn't the case.
Yes, they are descendents of the Jewish diaspora that migrated to that part of Africa in ~14th century.
The difference is that you can convert to Islam, you can convert to Christianity. You can't convert to Judaism (if you're not of Jewish descent). Jews do not expect non-jews to believe in their God, or follow their rites. Jews will not try to convert people who are not of Jewish descent. Judaism is entirely concerned about those of Jewish descent. And, of course, all the jews do share common ethnic ancestry.
Because of inter-marriage, the various segments of the Jewish diaspora have started to have different phenotypes, but they still come from a common ancestor.
That's different from, say, Ethiopian Christians and French Catholics, who are just two different ethnic groups that converted to Christianity, but otherwise have nothing in particular to do with each other (apart from the common ancestry that all humans share).
For some clarity, there is a conversion process for Judaism (varying depending on which movement one is in) but they don't seek out converts and it is not a simple or short process in any of them to my understanding.
/Not Jewish just know a few converts who are quite religious.
There are absolutely converts to Judaism, so it's not strictly true that all Jews share an common lineage. Just because they don't seek converts like Christians or Muslims doesn't mean they don't happen, after all. I follow some converts to Judaism on other social media sites and they have interesting perspectives. My understanding from them is that, theologically, converts are not supposed to be considered any different than those born Jewish once they've converted -- including that their kids are considered Jewish under the same sets of circumstances (though which circumstances those are is a longstanding subject of disagreement iirc). Circumstances like these are where the line between ethnicity and religion gets particularly blurry.
Huh, that's really interesting, I've never thought of the common ancestor perspective. Thanks
(EDIT: misread some of the comment, so striking out the bit that was written under that misunderstanding)
> well. But unlike the early 1900's, there is a steep cost to openly practicing it.I think your understanding of the history of Jews in Europe is extremely limited if you think there was not a steep cost to openly practicing Judaism in the early 1900s. Antisemitism is still a big deal but this idea is utterly ahistorical.I also think you're just not well-positioned to understand the conflicts within another faith because you have way less experience with them than with the faith you grew up with. Most of the internal conflicts you describe within Islam are very similar to the internal conflicts within the Christianity I grew up with -- while they're probably not theologically similar, the in-group behavior and insistence that other groups are doing it wrong because they disagree on some doctrinal minutiae. My pastor when I was still an evangelical Christian used to joke that evangelicals split and form a new denomination when they disagree on the color of the church's carpet. And the view of their own point of view as superior is definitely there with Christianity. I grew up believing that mainline Protestants were fake Christians because they didn't believe all the same things as we did. I know less about Judaism's specific divides because I didn't grow up Jewish, but I know they also have divisions between sects on a number of topics.
It's not unique to one religion or the other to have theological/philosophical divides like this. I think it's, at least to some extent, human nature. Hang out with some leftists and you'll find out it's not even limited to religion!
I think you're misreading it, and "it" refers not to judaism but antisemitism. As in, today there's a steep cost to openly practicing antisemitism, but in the 1900s public antisemitism was much more tolerated.
Ahhhh, that makes much more sense, thanks for pointing that out.
It can be both. And if I understood the comment above correctly, it's also hypocrisy. Not all, but some want one thing from where they're living and then want to do the exact same thing to others. Or they want one thing while simultaneously doing another thing that truly isn't in line with the country they live in - be it new refugees or the 2nd and 3rd generations.
This is extremely palpable here in Europe even for me, a white American with no Muslim background. I can only imagine how much worse it must be to personally experience it, and unfortunately I worry it'll only get worse before it gets better.