This seems like a pretty big deal-breaker to me. One of the main benefits of a gaming pc is the upgradability and therefore the lifespan. Not being able to upgrade the CPU, GPU, or even the RAM...
But it does feel like a strange fit for Framework, given that it's so much less upgradeable than most PCs. The CPU and GPU are one piece of silicon, and they're soldered to the motherboard. The RAM is also soldered down and not upgradeable once you've bought it, setting it apart from nearly every other board Framework sells.
This seems like a pretty big deal-breaker to me. One of the main benefits of a gaming pc is the upgradability and therefore the lifespan. Not being able to upgrade the CPU, GPU, or even the RAM seems pretty counterintuitive in the pc world nowadays. I struggle to see who would purchase this. There are cheaper options for those looking for a smallish pc, there are cheaper options for those looking at gaming consoles, and there are an infinite number of better long-term options for anyone looking for a gaming pc. Isn't Framework's whole shtick (with their laptops at least) is that it's all super customizable and upgradeable? This seems like such a departure from their brand and type of clientele.
They were heavily leaning on the local AI capabilities during the presentation. The schtick seems to be the ability to run reading-speed AI models locally without ultra-specialized hardware. Even...
They were heavily leaning on the local AI capabilities during the presentation. The schtick seems to be the ability to run reading-speed AI models locally without ultra-specialized hardware. Even though the desktop itself is already kind of ultra-specialized hardware.
It's kind of a weird product for sure. I guess if you're wanting to get into amateur AI workflows it could be worth it?
The integrated graphics apparently are quite capable and the specialized memory (hence it being soldered) can almost entirely be assigned to it. Which, in theory, makes it quite an affordable and...
The integrated graphics apparently are quite capable and the specialized memory (hence it being soldered) can almost entirely be assigned to it. Which, in theory, makes it quite an affordable and capable machine to run large ai models for which you normally would need several thousands worth of dedicated graphics cards.
Edit:
To add a few more details, the cpu is a AMD Ryzen™ AI Max 300 Series and the memory is LPDDR5x-8000
And from their own website (once I got through the queue)
Framework Desktop makes massive AI models accessible to own and run locally right on your desk. With up to 96GB of memory accessible by the Radeon™ 8060S GPU, even very large language models like Llama 3.3 70B can run real-time.
Ollama, llama.cpp, and other open source tools work out of the box on Windows and Linux, letting you run interference on Meta’s Llama, Nous’ Hermes, DeepSeek, and other popular open LLMs. You can go beyond text too, with image generation models like Flux.
Guides coming soon.
As far as I know this makes it one of the cheaper options. A completely kitted out version with 128GB of ram, 2TB of storage costs around €2640 when I go through the pre-order.
Mac Mini's are often said to be one of the cheaper options to run larger models these days because they do a similar trick with their memory. They max out at 64GB of system memory and when selecting with the same amount of storage I arrive at a price tag of € 3049.
So overall, I'd say that for the self-hosted AI crowd this appears to be a reasonably decent deal.
And, it also is a pretty decent and quiet compact gaming machine as well it seems. If it is also silent it is effectively a very nice steam box for use in a living room under your TV.
Thanks for the details and insight. I can see it making sense for the self-hosted AI crowd, like you said, but the article focused so much on the 'gaming pc' side of things which is probably why I...
Thanks for the details and insight. I can see it making sense for the self-hosted AI crowd, like you said, but the article focused so much on the 'gaming pc' side of things which is probably why I was so confused. In hindsight, I guess the Ryzen AI Max processor should have been a giveaway as to the real target audience.
All true, but it does have some virtues. Decent graphical power without the stingy upsell VRAM caps that’ve become common in entry-level discrete GPUs A package tinier than most SFF custom builds...
All true, but it does have some virtues.
Decent graphical power without the stingy upsell VRAM caps that’ve become common in entry-level discrete GPUs
A package tinier than most SFF custom builds with equivalent power
What seems to be relatively silent performance (though benchmarks need to be taken here for proof)
Though other options are notably better on specific axes, few offer that particular combination of benefits. For the type of user who overspecs a bit and rather than incrementally upgrading, just replaces their entire build once every 6 years or so, something like Framework’s desktop could make a lot of sense… getting a CPU, GPU, memory, and connectivity upgrade with a single board swap would work pretty well for them, since they were going to be replacing all those separate components anyway.
I don't know why Framework bothered with this. It doesn't fit their design principles at all. That said, none of these chip programs are caused by them. The chip is all soldered together because...
I don't know why Framework bothered with this. It doesn't fit their design principles at all. That said, none of these chip programs are caused by them. The chip is all soldered together because it has to be. That's how they're getting such good performance. ASUS engineers couldn't get swappable memory because the signal integrity didn't hold at the speeds they're targeting. So it's an odd fit for Framework, but products lock in isn't their choice.
LTT did a video on it with the CEO. They asked about the soldered RAM and the answer was interesting. I guess they approached AMD about it and their engineers tried but it was unstable or...
LTT did a video on it with the CEO. They asked about the soldered RAM and the answer was interesting. I guess they approached AMD about it and their engineers tried but it was unstable or something due to [reasons above my head].
I think they just did it because they're nerds and were nerding out about that new APU and wanted to do something with it.
I struggle to see who would purchase this.
I would.... I have a huge soft spot for mini pc's just like this one so I think its really cool. I really want one, but it would be more of a sideways upgrade for me and I have no need for another full computer.
Seems like a niche (of a niche, of a niche) product, but it's still cool. Not sure if it's for me though. I've taken great advantage of AM4's long lifespan, and made several incremental upgrades...
Seems like a niche (of a niche, of a niche) product, but it's still cool.
Not sure if it's for me though. I've taken great advantage of AM4's long lifespan, and made several incremental upgrades to my desktop over the years. It's nice (and practical) to be able to upgrade a system's RAM or CPU, and not have to spend a lot of money and change everything else at the same time.
I definitely wouldn't buy this as my only computer, nor would I buy it as a "gaming computer". I could imagine buying it as a separate workstation/productivity system though.
Also, it seems like the motherboard Framework ships with this could be replaced with a standard mini ITX motherboard and CPU (with integrated graphics). So, the system isn't totally monolithic (just the most expensive parts).
Also also, if anyone is wondering why I posted Framework's three announcements today as separate topics, the answers are:
I'm lazy and didn't want to write anything up myself
There wasn't a single (non-video) source that covers all three announcements that I liked
Framework's website is currently implementing a "waiting room" that makes people wait up to 10 minutes before loading the site
So the brand defined by its modularity introduces a product that's less modular than the status quo... strange. The pre-order is up to batch 2 already so apparently there's a market for it.
So the brand defined by its modularity introduces a product that's less modular than the status quo... strange. The pre-order is up to batch 2 already so apparently there's a market for it.
I mean, it should be clear that the person you are replying to is talking about things like swapping out the ram or CPUI. Things you already can do on desktop PCs. Regular desktops also do have...
I mean, it should be clear that the person you are replying to is talking about things like swapping out the ram or CPUI. Things you already can do on desktop PCs. Regular desktops also do have have swappable ports in the form of USB headers on the motherboard. If you have a case with 5.25" bays (historically used for cd/dvd drives) You can get all sorts of different things to put in there.
The rest of the things you mention isn't really essential for the functionality of the thing. The lowered modularity, as far as my understanding goes, is a result of limitations of the platform. Swappable memory is very difficult, if not outright impossible, with this specific type of memory. The LTT video about it goes into a bit more detail.
But, no matter how you look at it, it is less modular compared to most other desktop PCs out there.
Edit: Btw. I think there is a (small) case to be made for this more or less competing with Mac Minis, see my comment here. Comparing it to that market it is slightly more modular as you can also just buy the motherboard and source the rest of the parts yourself. Specifically as far as storage goes this offers a lot more flexibility compared to the Apple eco system. It also has a slight edge when looking at repairability when comparing to Mac Minis. Again, I think it is a small case to be made, overall I do agree with the sentiment that this is an odd fit in the Framework lineup. Even if I think it is a pretty cool product.
On the modularity front, I agree if you take it face value, not being able to swap out the CPU or memory from the mainboard is fundamentally less modular. But my practical experience with desktop...
On the modularity front, I agree if you take it face value, not being able to swap out the CPU or memory from the mainboard is fundamentally less modular.
But my practical experience with desktop PCs is that by the time I want to upgrade them, the new CPUs are no longer compatible with my existing mainboard or my existing RAM, so everything needs to be upgraded at once anyway.
In practical terms I am less worried about the replaceability of each component and more interested in how much thought has been put into the entire lifecycle of the product.
Framework have done a decent job on the laptop side of things when it comes to making their platforms upgradeable and supporting them for a reasonable amount of time, and finding ways for old hardware to be reused, so I'm inclined to trust them on this.
It does look pretty nice for local LLM stuff and I'll be interested to see what people are going to be doing with it, but won't be buying one myself at this point.
This looks really nice, I think the problem is that Desktop PC's have been long-standardized into a market of custom-built PC's since the OEM market got shot a decade ago (it was their own fault),...
This looks really nice, I think the problem is that Desktop PC's have been long-standardized into a market of custom-built PC's since the OEM market got shot a decade ago (it was their own fault), or mini-itx computers with semi-modular components which are common in office spaces. People buy desktop computers because they expect a lasting product, if the product doesn't afford upgrade-ability then there isn't much of a point.
I'll say that the chassis is remarkably small, normally for computers this size they'd have to make it larger to contain the DVD-rom drive and (at the time) a floppy drive.
As long as they don't compromise on their main products in terms of modularity, I'm okay with them taking some experimentation/risks on odd things like the desktop. There's really no need for them...
As long as they don't compromise on their main products in terms of modularity, I'm okay with them taking some experimentation/risks on odd things like the desktop. There's really no need for them to build their own bog-standard desktop because there's no real reason for them to point to for it to exist in the crowded desktop PC market. However, going with a new take on it and finding some niche to market to makes sense- and packing a lot of power into a small quiet form factor (but ALSO selling the cpu+ram+mobo by itself too) is intriguing, and maybe even some competition for high end "mini PCs"- if they stick to their ethos but start challenging / competing in more PC markets, that's a good thing.
They know that it's a bit of an odd standout in their lineup- even in their own keynote they stressed that they knew the soldered RAM was a bit of a different choice for them but they saw it as a choice they were willing to make to create this particular desktop. It's still got standard power plugs, it's a standard board size (ITX) so can go in other cases, it's mainly the cpu/ram that cannot be changed. I'm definitely okay with competitors coming into a market like this and shaking things up a bit, and with the ethos they've proven through the rest of their lineup and their increasing revenue, I think that gives them some leeway to try new things. They even mentioned they internally debated about it for a while before going through with it, and spoke to AMD about if they could work around the soldered-RAM requirement, but ultimately made the compromise.
So yes, in contrast to other desktop PCs, it is less modular. But in contrast to a Mac Mini it's more customizable. I think having a powerful laptop internal in a desktop (and thus a very powerful but quiet system as a result, if what they say is true) is a somewhat novel take, and tbh, it, feels like an experimental path maybe inspired by the fact that you can buy their laptop mainboards, and put those in special cases to make super small desktops. I agree it's a different path for them for that particular device, but I don't think they're trying to convince us otherwise.
This seems like a pretty big deal-breaker to me. One of the main benefits of a gaming pc is the upgradability and therefore the lifespan. Not being able to upgrade the CPU, GPU, or even the RAM seems pretty counterintuitive in the pc world nowadays. I struggle to see who would purchase this. There are cheaper options for those looking for a smallish pc, there are cheaper options for those looking at gaming consoles, and there are an infinite number of better long-term options for anyone looking for a gaming pc. Isn't Framework's whole shtick (with their laptops at least) is that it's all super customizable and upgradeable? This seems like such a departure from their brand and type of clientele.
They were heavily leaning on the local AI capabilities during the presentation. The schtick seems to be the ability to run reading-speed AI models locally without ultra-specialized hardware. Even though the desktop itself is already kind of ultra-specialized hardware.
It's kind of a weird product for sure. I guess if you're wanting to get into amateur AI workflows it could be worth it?
The integrated graphics apparently are quite capable and the specialized memory (hence it being soldered) can almost entirely be assigned to it. Which, in theory, makes it quite an affordable and capable machine to run large ai models for which you normally would need several thousands worth of dedicated graphics cards.
Edit:
To add a few more details, the cpu is a
AMD Ryzen™ AI Max 300 Seriesand the memory isLPDDR5x-8000And from their own website (once I got through the queue)
As far as I know this makes it one of the cheaper options. A completely kitted out version with 128GB of ram, 2TB of storage costs around €2640 when I go through the pre-order.
Mac Mini's are often said to be one of the cheaper options to run larger models these days because they do a similar trick with their memory. They max out at 64GB of system memory and when selecting with the same amount of storage I arrive at a price tag of € 3049.
So overall, I'd say that for the self-hosted AI crowd this appears to be a reasonably decent deal.
And, it also is a pretty decent and quiet compact gaming machine as well it seems. If it is also silent it is effectively a very nice steam box for use in a living room under your TV.
Thanks for the details and insight. I can see it making sense for the self-hosted AI crowd, like you said, but the article focused so much on the 'gaming pc' side of things which is probably why I was so confused. In hindsight, I guess the Ryzen AI Max processor should have been a giveaway as to the real target audience.
All true, but it does have some virtues.
Though other options are notably better on specific axes, few offer that particular combination of benefits. For the type of user who overspecs a bit and rather than incrementally upgrading, just replaces their entire build once every 6 years or so, something like Framework’s desktop could make a lot of sense… getting a CPU, GPU, memory, and connectivity upgrade with a single board swap would work pretty well for them, since they were going to be replacing all those separate components anyway.
I don't know why Framework bothered with this. It doesn't fit their design principles at all. That said, none of these chip programs are caused by them. The chip is all soldered together because it has to be. That's how they're getting such good performance. ASUS engineers couldn't get swappable memory because the signal integrity didn't hold at the speeds they're targeting. So it's an odd fit for Framework, but products lock in isn't their choice.
LTT did a video on it with the CEO. They asked about the soldered RAM and the answer was interesting. I guess they approached AMD about it and their engineers tried but it was unstable or something due to [reasons above my head].
I think they just did it because they're nerds and were nerding out about that new APU and wanted to do something with it.
I would.... I have a huge soft spot for mini pc's just like this one so I think its really cool. I really want one, but it would be more of a sideways upgrade for me and I have no need for another full computer.
Seems like a niche (of a niche, of a niche) product, but it's still cool.
Not sure if it's for me though. I've taken great advantage of AM4's long lifespan, and made several incremental upgrades to my desktop over the years. It's nice (and practical) to be able to upgrade a system's RAM or CPU, and not have to spend a lot of money and change everything else at the same time.
I definitely wouldn't buy this as my only computer, nor would I buy it as a "gaming computer". I could imagine buying it as a separate workstation/productivity system though.
Also, it seems like the motherboard Framework ships with this could be replaced with a standard mini ITX motherboard and CPU (with integrated graphics). So, the system isn't totally monolithic (just the most expensive parts).
Also also, if anyone is wondering why I posted Framework's three announcements today as separate topics, the answers are:
So the brand defined by its modularity introduces a product that's less modular than the status quo... strange. The pre-order is up to batch 2 already so apparently there's a market for it.
It's still more modular than the status quo. Other desktops don't have swappable ports, side panels, and front panel tiles
I mean, it should be clear that the person you are replying to is talking about things like swapping out the ram or CPUI. Things you already can do on desktop PCs. Regular desktops also do have have swappable ports in the form of USB headers on the motherboard. If you have a case with 5.25" bays (historically used for cd/dvd drives) You can get all sorts of different things to put in there.
The rest of the things you mention isn't really essential for the functionality of the thing. The lowered modularity, as far as my understanding goes, is a result of limitations of the platform. Swappable memory is very difficult, if not outright impossible, with this specific type of memory. The LTT video about it goes into a bit more detail.
But, no matter how you look at it, it is less modular compared to most other desktop PCs out there.
Edit: Btw. I think there is a (small) case to be made for this more or less competing with Mac Minis, see my comment here. Comparing it to that market it is slightly more modular as you can also just buy the motherboard and source the rest of the parts yourself. Specifically as far as storage goes this offers a lot more flexibility compared to the Apple eco system. It also has a slight edge when looking at repairability when comparing to Mac Minis. Again, I think it is a small case to be made, overall I do agree with the sentiment that this is an odd fit in the Framework lineup. Even if I think it is a pretty cool product.
On the modularity front, I agree if you take it face value, not being able to swap out the CPU or memory from the mainboard is fundamentally less modular.
But my practical experience with desktop PCs is that by the time I want to upgrade them, the new CPUs are no longer compatible with my existing mainboard or my existing RAM, so everything needs to be upgraded at once anyway.
In practical terms I am less worried about the replaceability of each component and more interested in how much thought has been put into the entire lifecycle of the product.
Framework have done a decent job on the laptop side of things when it comes to making their platforms upgradeable and supporting them for a reasonable amount of time, and finding ways for old hardware to be reused, so I'm inclined to trust them on this.
It does look pretty nice for local LLM stuff and I'll be interested to see what people are going to be doing with it, but won't be buying one myself at this point.
This looks really nice, I think the problem is that Desktop PC's have been long-standardized into a market of custom-built PC's since the OEM market got shot a decade ago (it was their own fault), or mini-itx computers with semi-modular components which are common in office spaces. People buy desktop computers because they expect a lasting product, if the product doesn't afford upgrade-ability then there isn't much of a point.
I'll say that the chassis is remarkably small, normally for computers this size they'd have to make it larger to contain the DVD-rom drive and (at the time) a floppy drive.
As long as they don't compromise on their main products in terms of modularity, I'm okay with them taking some experimentation/risks on odd things like the desktop. There's really no need for them to build their own bog-standard desktop because there's no real reason for them to point to for it to exist in the crowded desktop PC market. However, going with a new take on it and finding some niche to market to makes sense- and packing a lot of power into a small quiet form factor (but ALSO selling the cpu+ram+mobo by itself too) is intriguing, and maybe even some competition for high end "mini PCs"- if they stick to their ethos but start challenging / competing in more PC markets, that's a good thing.
They know that it's a bit of an odd standout in their lineup- even in their own keynote they stressed that they knew the soldered RAM was a bit of a different choice for them but they saw it as a choice they were willing to make to create this particular desktop. It's still got standard power plugs, it's a standard board size (ITX) so can go in other cases, it's mainly the cpu/ram that cannot be changed. I'm definitely okay with competitors coming into a market like this and shaking things up a bit, and with the ethos they've proven through the rest of their lineup and their increasing revenue, I think that gives them some leeway to try new things. They even mentioned they internally debated about it for a while before going through with it, and spoke to AMD about if they could work around the soldered-RAM requirement, but ultimately made the compromise.
So yes, in contrast to other desktop PCs, it is less modular. But in contrast to a Mac Mini it's more customizable. I think having a powerful laptop internal in a desktop (and thus a very powerful but quiet system as a result, if what they say is true) is a somewhat novel take, and tbh, it, feels like an experimental path maybe inspired by the fact that you can buy their laptop mainboards, and put those in special cases to make super small desktops. I agree it's a different path for them for that particular device, but I don't think they're trying to convince us otherwise.