I wish there was more analysis of where these job openings are coming from within the tech industry and what types of jobs (in particular pay and seniority) are open right now. There's been plenty...
I wish there was more analysis of where these job openings are coming from within the tech industry and what types of jobs (in particular pay and seniority) are open right now. There's been plenty of recent large layoffs going on, so the tech industry has /something/ going on. Oracle and Amazon both have had 10k+ person layoffs this year already and https://www.trueup.io/layoffs, the same place generating the job opening data, also shows a steady rate of layoffs within tech. That suggests a more complex answer than just tech is back to it's normal growth. In terms of AI fears for software engineering, I expect people to care as much or more about the pay, working conditions, and job stability as the single metric of number of openings.
There's a fundamental asymmetry to job number news which makes it difficult to correlate those kind of things to the actual +/- counts. When Amazon has a 10k layoff, that's news. When Cisco has...
Oracle and Amazon both have had 10k+ person layoffs this year already
There's a fundamental asymmetry to job number news which makes it difficult to correlate those kind of things to the actual +/- counts.
When Amazon has a 10k layoff, that's news.
When Cisco has hired an additional 2k people this quarter and the last 3 quarters, that's not news.
Feels like this is the case, I’ve been asked to do a lot more interviews (from the interviewer side), and I know a lot of people who’ve gotten jobs or swapped jobs in the industry. I don’t think...
Feels like this is the case, I’ve been asked to do a lot more interviews (from the interviewer side), and I know a lot of people who’ve gotten jobs or swapped jobs in the industry.
I don’t think “AI” has really changed all that much, the swings in hiring mainly correlate to overall macro conditions more than anything, as usual.
What sector of tech, if you don't mind me asking? Most of my US tech friends have stayed put in their current jobs for at least the last year because it has been far more difficult to find roles...
What sector of tech, if you don't mind me asking? Most of my US tech friends have stayed put in their current jobs for at least the last year because it has been far more difficult to find roles lately. Personally I've usually taken no more than a month or two to find a new job in the past, but last year it took me about 5 months to get a single offer. It's hard to deny that, at least in my area of tech, the market has seriously cooled from the 2015-2024 highs.
Not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious if I should consider adjusting my niche. I have zero interest in working on AI-first products, so maybe that's my issue?
Yeah, I imagine it's domain specific. Games still seems to be underwater as of now. I also notice the language here is "job openings", not "hirings" per se. They seem to conflate it once in the...
Yeah, I imagine it's domain specific. Games still seems to be underwater as of now.
I also notice the language here is "job openings", not "hirings" per se. They seem to conflate it once in the story, but all other suggestions point to this firm looking at open roles. In a time where "ghost" jobs have also been on the rise.
The "kinds" of jobs seems predictable as well even if we give this a generous interpretation:
Within that universe, demand for software engineers remains strong, while AI-related roles are "exploding,"
The key word in that chart is "globally". U.S. tech hiring might be down dramatically, and openings in cheaper labor markets might have made up the rising line. The article doesn't identify job...
The key word in that chart is "globally". U.S. tech hiring might be down dramatically, and openings in cheaper labor markets might have made up the rising line. The article doesn't identify job markets or provide any information about where the computer science student boom is located.
Yeah I'd love to see the stats on what percentage jobs are going to US candidates and which jobs are being offshored to Eastern Europe, India, South America, etc. It's easy for me to believe that...
Yeah I'd love to see the stats on what percentage jobs are going to US candidates and which jobs are being offshored to Eastern Europe, India, South America, etc.
It's easy for me to believe that there are plenty of job openings for people who accept 1/4th the pay they deserve.
That’s not really the case, though. In India, these foreign tech companies offer very good salaries compared to the cost of living. I would earn maybe a third in Bangalore in the same company and...
It's easy for me to believe that there are plenty of job openings for people who accept 1/4th the pay they deserve.
That’s not really the case, though. In India, these foreign tech companies offer very good salaries compared to the cost of living.
I would earn maybe a third in Bangalore in the same company and position compared to Vancouver, but the COL is much less than a third.
Yes but how much is that salary in comparison to what they would pay someone doing that equivalent job in the United States? Just because something is a fair wage for the area doesn't mean it's a...
Yes but how much is that salary in comparison to what they would pay someone doing that equivalent job in the United States?
Just because something is a fair wage for the area doesn't mean it's a fair wage for the work done. Employees should be compensated for the value they provide to the company, not just "as little as is possible for the company to pay them."
If companies had to pay within 10% of what US labor would be paid worldwide, CoL would stop being so disparate. Especially if these countries preemptively implemented good progressive tax brackets...
If companies had to pay within 10% of what US labor would be paid worldwide, CoL would stop being so disparate.
Especially if these countries preemptively implemented good progressive tax brackets to fund the social programs to ease pending inflation.
The median salary for a remote software engineer in India is ~45,000 usd/yr. In the US it's ~191,000. So, already accomplished! @obliviater Edit: oh, sorry, I misread you. Within 10%, not more...
The median salary for a remote software engineer in India is ~45,000 usd/yr. In the US it's ~191,000. So, already accomplished!
Edit: oh, sorry, I misread you. Within 10%, not more than 10%. Lifting all boats is a noble goal but this isn't the way to do it. If you make it so that overseas jobs must get paid the same as western jobs from X country, all you've done is make it so that no more jobs go overseas, ever. And job outsourcing is a huge benefit to the receiving countries (trivial to demonstrate - if outsourced jobs weren't still better than what was locally available, nobody would take them, right?), so receiving countries would be hurt most of all.
I mean, consider: which countries have received the most outsourced/offshored labor and which have not? The venn diagram between "hosted much outsourcing" and "is economically more successful than comparison countries" is basically a circle. India, China, Vietnam vs Cambodia, Burma, Laos... Kenya vs Uganda, ad nauseum.
It's hard for people facing one of the worst labor markets in decades to see this as a bad thing. Companies offshoring labor because they can pay them literally 1/4th the salary or less doesn't...
It's hard for people facing one of the worst labor markets in decades to see this as a bad thing.
Companies offshoring labor because they can pay them literally 1/4th the salary or less doesn't strike me as something anyone who values the labor of the working class should be celebrating. It's a huge win for the shareholders though, so I guess that's something!
It's good for them until the companies decide to move it somewhere even cheaper, or decide that AI can replace them. I will not be cheering on the race to the bottom for labor costs.
It's good for them until the companies decide to move it somewhere even cheaper, or decide that AI can replace them.
I will not be cheering on the race to the bottom for labor costs.
First introduce vibe coding, then hire people to fix the vibe coding, then replace them with more polished AI, then realize your software updates destroy people's machines, then hire people to fix...
First introduce vibe coding, then hire people to fix the vibe coding, then replace them with more polished AI, then realize your software updates destroy people's machines, then hire people to fix everything, repeat.
Pretty much. This is how outsourcing ebbs and flows except this time it isn't outsourced to India but a machine. It's the same picture. I'm still not quite convinced this headline is anything...
Pretty much. This is how outsourcing ebbs and flows except this time it isn't outsourced to India but a machine. It's the same picture.
I'm still not quite convinced this headline is anything meaningful in the job market. Hiring always happens, even if a trickle. This doesn't seem to weigh up against the total industry layoffs.
Atlassian has had decent new grad hiring in North America for a few years now. Even when they did layoffs in early 2023 they continued hiring new grads that year.
Atlassian has had decent new grad hiring in North America for a few years now. Even when they did layoffs in early 2023 they continued hiring new grads that year.
I wish there was more analysis of where these job openings are coming from within the tech industry and what types of jobs (in particular pay and seniority) are open right now. There's been plenty of recent large layoffs going on, so the tech industry has /something/ going on. Oracle and Amazon both have had 10k+ person layoffs this year already and https://www.trueup.io/layoffs, the same place generating the job opening data, also shows a steady rate of layoffs within tech. That suggests a more complex answer than just tech is back to it's normal growth. In terms of AI fears for software engineering, I expect people to care as much or more about the pay, working conditions, and job stability as the single metric of number of openings.
There's a fundamental asymmetry to job number news which makes it difficult to correlate those kind of things to the actual +/- counts.
When Amazon has a 10k layoff, that's news.
When Cisco has hired an additional 2k people this quarter and the last 3 quarters, that's not news.
The best we got is job numbers in the Labor statistics, and it still seems to be in the negative this year. And only revising down after the fact.
Feels like this is the case, I’ve been asked to do a lot more interviews (from the interviewer side), and I know a lot of people who’ve gotten jobs or swapped jobs in the industry.
I don’t think “AI” has really changed all that much, the swings in hiring mainly correlate to overall macro conditions more than anything, as usual.
What sector of tech, if you don't mind me asking? Most of my US tech friends have stayed put in their current jobs for at least the last year because it has been far more difficult to find roles lately. Personally I've usually taken no more than a month or two to find a new job in the past, but last year it took me about 5 months to get a single offer. It's hard to deny that, at least in my area of tech, the market has seriously cooled from the 2015-2024 highs.
Not saying you're wrong, but I'm curious if I should consider adjusting my niche. I have zero interest in working on AI-first products, so maybe that's my issue?
Yeah, I imagine it's domain specific. Games still seems to be underwater as of now.
I also notice the language here is "job openings", not "hirings" per se. They seem to conflate it once in the story, but all other suggestions point to this firm looking at open roles. In a time where "ghost" jobs have also been on the rise.
The "kinds" of jobs seems predictable as well even if we give this a generous interpretation:
The key word in that chart is "globally". U.S. tech hiring might be down dramatically, and openings in cheaper labor markets might have made up the rising line. The article doesn't identify job markets or provide any information about where the computer science student boom is located.
Yeah I'd love to see the stats on what percentage jobs are going to US candidates and which jobs are being offshored to Eastern Europe, India, South America, etc.
It's easy for me to believe that there are plenty of job openings for people who accept 1/4th the pay they deserve.
That’s not really the case, though. In India, these foreign tech companies offer very good salaries compared to the cost of living.
I would earn maybe a third in Bangalore in the same company and position compared to Vancouver, but the COL is much less than a third.
Yes but how much is that salary in comparison to what they would pay someone doing that equivalent job in the United States?
Just because something is a fair wage for the area doesn't mean it's a fair wage for the work done. Employees should be compensated for the value they provide to the company, not just "as little as is possible for the company to pay them."
If companies had to pay within 10% of what US labor would be paid worldwide, CoL would stop being so disparate.
Especially if these countries preemptively implemented good progressive tax brackets to fund the social programs to ease pending inflation.
We could call it 'rising all ships.'
The median salary for a remote software engineer in India is ~45,000 usd/yr. In the US it's ~191,000. So, already accomplished!
@obliviater
Edit: oh, sorry, I misread you. Within 10%, not more than 10%. Lifting all boats is a noble goal but this isn't the way to do it. If you make it so that overseas jobs must get paid the same as western jobs from X country, all you've done is make it so that no more jobs go overseas, ever. And job outsourcing is a huge benefit to the receiving countries (trivial to demonstrate - if outsourced jobs weren't still better than what was locally available, nobody would take them, right?), so receiving countries would be hurt most of all.
I mean, consider: which countries have received the most outsourced/offshored labor and which have not? The venn diagram between "hosted much outsourcing" and "is economically more successful than comparison countries" is basically a circle. India, China, Vietnam vs Cambodia, Burma, Laos... Kenya vs Uganda, ad nauseum.
It's hard for people facing one of the worst labor markets in decades to see this as a bad thing.
Companies offshoring labor because they can pay them literally 1/4th the salary or less doesn't strike me as something anyone who values the labor of the working class should be celebrating. It's a huge win for the shareholders though, so I guess that's something!
Well, the labor of which working class? It's bad for us, but good for people in those countries.
It's good for them until the companies decide to move it somewhere even cheaper, or decide that AI can replace them.
I will not be cheering on the race to the bottom for labor costs.
First introduce vibe coding, then hire people to fix the vibe coding, then replace them with more polished AI, then realize your software updates destroy people's machines, then hire people to fix everything, repeat.
Pretty much. This is how outsourcing ebbs and flows except this time it isn't outsourced to India but a machine. It's the same picture.
I'm still not quite convinced this headline is anything meaningful in the job market. Hiring always happens, even if a trickle. This doesn't seem to weigh up against the total industry layoffs.
It’s weird. Atlassian fired like 1500 people recently but they are also hiring 100+ new grads alone across US and Canada.
Atlassian has had decent new grad hiring in North America for a few years now. Even when they did layoffs in early 2023 they continued hiring new grads that year.