Title was a bit emotional for my tastes. (Original: John Deere Just Swindled Farmers Out of Their Right To Repair). Whilst seemingly cooperating with the movement, and the laws that are springing...
Title was a bit emotional for my tastes. (Original: John Deere Just Swindled Farmers Out of Their Right To Repair).
Whilst seemingly cooperating with the movement, and the laws that are springing up, John Deere has made repairing their farming equipment nigh-impossible by getting an acknowledged difference between repairing the machine and modifying the software.
Which basically means you can't fix a misfiring engine, you can't tune the engine, you can't fix the blinker that is stuck on, etc.
I'm really fearful that this will become the future of cars, especially as everything starts to go electric. The new system/infrastructure surrounding cars and their maintenance will give them the...
I'm really fearful that this will become the future of cars, especially as everything starts to go electric. The new system/infrastructure surrounding cars and their maintenance will give them the excuse to implement pretty much anything they want. Just look at tesla, it's absurd what they are doing, updating cars automatically, software unlocking battery capacity - that scene in Silicon valley where an electric car drives Jarred into a shipping container, really sums just it up.
Unfortunately, this isn't the future. It's the here and now. Some states in the US have begun implementing Right-to-Repair laws, and the EU has as well, to try and combat this state of affairs....
I'm really fearful that this will become the future of cars, especially as everything starts to go electric.
Unfortunately, this isn't the future. It's the here and now. Some states in the US have begun implementing Right-to-Repair laws, and the EU has as well, to try and combat this state of affairs. However, the status quo, is that you're not allowed to repair the thing you supposedly own.
However, if this (false) distinction between repairing hardware and modifying software in any way (including firmware updates) becomes more widespread... Then those Right-to-Repair laws become useless, as they pretty much allow you to only make cosmetic changes.
In replying to this whole thread: Stallman was... right. I hope entities like the EU will develop enough that they'll understand the necessity that the source code to critical software may not be...
In replying to this whole thread: Stallman was... right.
I hope entities like the EU will develop enough that they'll understand the necessity that the source code to critical software may not be hidden (and a car's firmware is as critical as it gets, any code that drives something mechanical is potentially critical). Just like many products are required to list ingredients, many stuff's source code is ought to be accessible to the public.
You don't need to look at something like Tesla. My dad's a mechanic. It's been a slow process forever of things being more and more difficult to repair even by a trained professional. From Apple...
You don't need to look at something like Tesla. My dad's a mechanic. It's been a slow process forever of things being more and more difficult to repair even by a trained professional. From Apple putting random screw heads (fuck you tri wing screws and hex bolts in tiny phones) to requiring a subscription for several thousand dollars to update the firmware on a Mercedes computer. Combine that with the increased computerization of unnecessary things like window switches that must be synced with the computer to key fobs that have to get a specific single use authorization code from the dealer. From that all the way to specific bolts that require a specific tool that only the dealer sells, to cell phones who say you don't own it so you can't change the software...
Things are really not looking good for anyone trying to own things.
Who says these self driving vehicles can't be publicly owned/operated and be the next iteration of buses/trains? It's unlikely that's how it'll pan out, but it's an option.
Who says these self driving vehicles can't be publicly owned/operated and be the next iteration of buses/trains?
It's unlikely that's how it'll pan out, but it's an option.
Libertarianism is the kind of straight forward 'common sense' seeming philosophy that's easy to embrace when you're young and doing well. Once you're older, wiser, and get past the shiny sales...
Libertarianism is the kind of straight forward 'common sense' seeming philosophy that's easy to embrace when you're young and doing well. Once you're older, wiser, and get past the shiny sales pitch for unfettered capitalism you begin to see through the oversimplifications and misconceptions of that philosophy.
Frankly, the fact that the Koch brothers champion libertarianism and 'Trump's America' should be the first clue that it isn't good for common people. It's a lever being used to distract people from our problems, by getting them to adopt policies and beliefs that will only further the interests of the rich in the long run. I have to hand it to them for co-opting libertarianism, that was a real threat when the tea party was first getting started in '06-'08. Now they've managed to bring much of that group back into the Republican fold, and the rest have given up taking back the Republican party. Tea party is now a loaded term and an insult, rather than being code for libertarian-republican takeover. All it means anymore is 'angry, clueless, racist, homophobic republican lite' to most people.
If you want a healthy market, you need to invest in the people because those people are the market. Keep them fed, clothed, housed, educated, and healthy with basic socialism - a foundation for the market to rest upon. Sick people get well and go back to work. People without training can get it and go back to work. People without jobs can still live with some dignity and focus on improving. UBI keeps the velocity of money high even in stagnant economies, so that there's still enough money at the bottom for work to get done (and that's something we've been losing for years). All that's needed beyond that is some basic, sensible regulation and actually holding people accountable for wrongdoing. I've been able to get this across to every libertarian I've talked to in person - most of them are not opposed to a UBI and single payer health care, or even fully socialized medicine and education.
This 'right to repair' nonsense is just John Deere shooting itself in the foot - along with any other vendor who goes this way. Once people get burned by these inferior sabotaged products, they'll pick a vendor that doesn't play this stupid game with its customers. The market will eventually punish this behavior, but it takes time - how often do you buy a new tractor? I'm happy to see legislation that makes it harder for companies to do this, though. If you physically own a thing, the company's right to it ends when you complete the purchase, and that's that.
What's also incredibly annoying is how a left wing philosophy was co-opted by big business right wingers and turned on its head. I consider myself fairly libertarian, but I'm not a Koch Brothers...
What's also incredibly annoying is how a left wing philosophy was co-opted by big business right wingers and turned on its head. I consider myself fairly libertarian, but I'm not a Koch Brothers Corporate Libertarian™ in any way, shape or form.
Because "socialists taking your property" usually involves people coming to me and taking something that's mine away, and you are describing a potential dominance of corporation that would...
Because "socialists taking your property" usually involves people coming to me and taking something that's mine away, and you are describing a potential dominance of corporation that would potentially provide a better and demanded service. So who is taking anything away in this scenario? Now if at the same time you would not be able to buy a car that's another story, but I don't think that usual cars would go away anytime soon.
It's going to depend on circumstances. Rural vs urban will be the deciding factor. If you live in a city, you probably already have access to cheap train and bus transportation, and those services...
It's going to depend on circumstances. Rural vs urban will be the deciding factor.
If you live in a city, you probably already have access to cheap train and bus transportation, and those services will improve and convert to electric vehicles when their circumstances are right to do so. They won't just replace an entire fleet until it's time to buy new vehicles, and that's when the new tech will come in.
Beyond that, in a city, it's much more economical to have fleets of taxis so that anyone in the city or its immediate urban area can simply send a text and get a ride in minutes. The population density is so high that there's little chance those services will sit idle. Every vehicle will get multiple jobs every day.
Compare that to what a city dweller has to do to own a car. They have to pay for the car, pay for parking, pay for the insurance, pay for the maintenance and upkeep on the vehicle, and they probably drive it very little. In that situation it's far easier and much less expensive to use the ride services and ditch the car and associated costs. Car rentals are fairly cheap for the rare occasions those people would actually need a car for a longer time period - and those rentals can come from the same ride services. Frankly I'd expect to see a subscription model... pay x$ a month, and you're covered by the ride services for that city (or perhaps even a nation-wide network of services in multiple cities).
This won't fly in rural areas, though. People living in the country depend on their vehicles for a lot of day to day tasks. Taxis are a joke - you need trucks, vehicles that can handle 4wd and haul larger loads. Roads are worse, driving conditions are tougher, travel distances are usually longer, and those cars are the only way for people to get groceries or fuel for their homes. They can't just 'rent' a vehicle to go to and from work because they need it for much longer periods than a quick cab ride across town. Wages are more depressed in rural areas, you can already see that in the age of the vehicles. I don't think people who depend that heavily on their own vehicles will be willing to make the switch so fast.
I first started hearing how driverless cars are just around the corner 5-6 years ago. They are still early in the development, all the tests I have seen have a backup driver and will be riding...
I first started hearing how driverless cars are just around the corner 5-6 years ago.
They are still early in the development, all the tests I have seen have a backup driver and will be riding suburban streets always running the same routes, to/from etc. A very heavily constrained situation, not criticizing, it's essential to development, - but media coverage and hype have blown everything out of proportion.
And frankly that only covers one of the reasons people own a car (in many cases it's never even a choce), as a means of transport to/from work - public transport is driverless's main competitions. Sure maybe it will go down to one car per family, but to think they will just go away is naïve.
Driverless really cannot compete with the rest of the car ownership experience. People by them as status, hobby, pleasure. And at least to me it's really been about the freedom to travel long distances, I have bicycle for the work commute. Having the freedom to travel across borders and between cities and seldom used roads in the country. I just do not see a collective electric car ownership ever working in that case.
Much of what is happening right now is companies are building accurate maps for the streets they want their cars to drive on. I have not seen one company that is building a driverless car capable of travelling a never before seen street. I could be wrong, I have tried to look but it's difficult to get away from the blatant hype-pressreleases so many seems to publish.
Vice's Motherboard released a nice little mini-documentary a few months ago on John Deere vs Farmers Right to Repair that is well worth watching IMO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JCh0owT4w
Vice's Motherboard released a nice little mini-documentary a few months ago on John Deere vs Farmers Right to Repair that is well worth watching IMO: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JCh0owT4w
Title was a bit emotional for my tastes. (Original: John Deere Just Swindled Farmers Out of Their Right To Repair).
Whilst seemingly cooperating with the movement, and the laws that are springing up, John Deere has made repairing their farming equipment nigh-impossible by getting an acknowledged difference between repairing the machine and modifying the software.
Which basically means you can't fix a misfiring engine, you can't tune the engine, you can't fix the blinker that is stuck on, etc.
I'm really fearful that this will become the future of cars, especially as everything starts to go electric. The new system/infrastructure surrounding cars and their maintenance will give them the excuse to implement pretty much anything they want. Just look at tesla, it's absurd what they are doing, updating cars automatically, software unlocking battery capacity - that scene in Silicon valley where an electric car drives Jarred into a shipping container, really sums just it up.
Unfortunately, this isn't the future. It's the here and now. Some states in the US have begun implementing Right-to-Repair laws, and the EU has as well, to try and combat this state of affairs. However, the status quo, is that you're not allowed to repair the thing you supposedly own.
However, if this (false) distinction between repairing hardware and modifying software in any way (including firmware updates) becomes more widespread... Then those Right-to-Repair laws become useless, as they pretty much allow you to only make cosmetic changes.
In replying to this whole thread: Stallman was... right.
I hope entities like the EU will develop enough that they'll understand the necessity that the source code to critical software may not be hidden (and a car's firmware is as critical as it gets, any code that drives something mechanical is potentially critical). Just like many products are required to list ingredients, many stuff's source code is ought to be accessible to the public.
You don't need to look at something like Tesla. My dad's a mechanic. It's been a slow process forever of things being more and more difficult to repair even by a trained professional. From Apple putting random screw heads (fuck you tri wing screws and hex bolts in tiny phones) to requiring a subscription for several thousand dollars to update the firmware on a Mercedes computer. Combine that with the increased computerization of unnecessary things like window switches that must be synced with the computer to key fobs that have to get a specific single use authorization code from the dealer. From that all the way to specific bolts that require a specific tool that only the dealer sells, to cell phones who say you don't own it so you can't change the software...
Things are really not looking good for anyone trying to own things.
Who says these self driving vehicles can't be publicly owned/operated and be the next iteration of buses/trains?
It's unlikely that's how it'll pan out, but it's an option.
Well, Libertarians™ are silly.
Libertarianism is the kind of straight forward 'common sense' seeming philosophy that's easy to embrace when you're young and doing well. Once you're older, wiser, and get past the shiny sales pitch for unfettered capitalism you begin to see through the oversimplifications and misconceptions of that philosophy.
Frankly, the fact that the Koch brothers champion libertarianism and 'Trump's America' should be the first clue that it isn't good for common people. It's a lever being used to distract people from our problems, by getting them to adopt policies and beliefs that will only further the interests of the rich in the long run. I have to hand it to them for co-opting libertarianism, that was a real threat when the tea party was first getting started in '06-'08. Now they've managed to bring much of that group back into the Republican fold, and the rest have given up taking back the Republican party. Tea party is now a loaded term and an insult, rather than being code for libertarian-republican takeover. All it means anymore is 'angry, clueless, racist, homophobic republican lite' to most people.
If you want a healthy market, you need to invest in the people because those people are the market. Keep them fed, clothed, housed, educated, and healthy with basic socialism - a foundation for the market to rest upon. Sick people get well and go back to work. People without training can get it and go back to work. People without jobs can still live with some dignity and focus on improving. UBI keeps the velocity of money high even in stagnant economies, so that there's still enough money at the bottom for work to get done (and that's something we've been losing for years). All that's needed beyond that is some basic, sensible regulation and actually holding people accountable for wrongdoing. I've been able to get this across to every libertarian I've talked to in person - most of them are not opposed to a UBI and single payer health care, or even fully socialized medicine and education.
This 'right to repair' nonsense is just John Deere shooting itself in the foot - along with any other vendor who goes this way. Once people get burned by these inferior sabotaged products, they'll pick a vendor that doesn't play this stupid game with its customers. The market will eventually punish this behavior, but it takes time - how often do you buy a new tractor? I'm happy to see legislation that makes it harder for companies to do this, though. If you physically own a thing, the company's right to it ends when you complete the purchase, and that's that.
What's also incredibly annoying is how a left wing philosophy was co-opted by big business right wingers and turned on its head. I consider myself fairly libertarian, but I'm not a Koch Brothers Corporate Libertarian™ in any way, shape or form.
Libertarian socialist is probably the closest description to where I am.
Because "socialists taking your property" usually involves people coming to me and taking something that's mine away, and you are describing a potential dominance of corporation that would potentially provide a better and demanded service. So who is taking anything away in this scenario? Now if at the same time you would not be able to buy a car that's another story, but I don't think that usual cars would go away anytime soon.
It's going to depend on circumstances. Rural vs urban will be the deciding factor.
If you live in a city, you probably already have access to cheap train and bus transportation, and those services will improve and convert to electric vehicles when their circumstances are right to do so. They won't just replace an entire fleet until it's time to buy new vehicles, and that's when the new tech will come in.
Beyond that, in a city, it's much more economical to have fleets of taxis so that anyone in the city or its immediate urban area can simply send a text and get a ride in minutes. The population density is so high that there's little chance those services will sit idle. Every vehicle will get multiple jobs every day.
Compare that to what a city dweller has to do to own a car. They have to pay for the car, pay for parking, pay for the insurance, pay for the maintenance and upkeep on the vehicle, and they probably drive it very little. In that situation it's far easier and much less expensive to use the ride services and ditch the car and associated costs. Car rentals are fairly cheap for the rare occasions those people would actually need a car for a longer time period - and those rentals can come from the same ride services. Frankly I'd expect to see a subscription model... pay x$ a month, and you're covered by the ride services for that city (or perhaps even a nation-wide network of services in multiple cities).
This won't fly in rural areas, though. People living in the country depend on their vehicles for a lot of day to day tasks. Taxis are a joke - you need trucks, vehicles that can handle 4wd and haul larger loads. Roads are worse, driving conditions are tougher, travel distances are usually longer, and those cars are the only way for people to get groceries or fuel for their homes. They can't just 'rent' a vehicle to go to and from work because they need it for much longer periods than a quick cab ride across town. Wages are more depressed in rural areas, you can already see that in the age of the vehicles. I don't think people who depend that heavily on their own vehicles will be willing to make the switch so fast.
I first started hearing how driverless cars are just around the corner 5-6 years ago.
They are still early in the development, all the tests I have seen have a backup driver and will be riding suburban streets always running the same routes, to/from etc. A very heavily constrained situation, not criticizing, it's essential to development, - but media coverage and hype have blown everything out of proportion.
And frankly that only covers one of the reasons people own a car (in many cases it's never even a choce), as a means of transport to/from work - public transport is driverless's main competitions. Sure maybe it will go down to one car per family, but to think they will just go away is naïve.
Driverless really cannot compete with the rest of the car ownership experience. People by them as status, hobby, pleasure. And at least to me it's really been about the freedom to travel long distances, I have bicycle for the work commute. Having the freedom to travel across borders and between cities and seldom used roads in the country. I just do not see a collective electric car ownership ever working in that case.
Much of what is happening right now is companies are building accurate maps for the streets they want their cars to drive on. I have not seen one company that is building a driverless car capable of travelling a never before seen street. I could be wrong, I have tried to look but it's difficult to get away from the blatant hype-pressreleases so many seems to publish.
Vice's Motherboard released a nice little mini-documentary a few months ago on John Deere vs Farmers Right to Repair that is well worth watching IMO:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F8JCh0owT4w
It's time for the Linuxmobile.
GNU/Linuxmobile.
Nothing runs like a GNU.