Those firms are looking to maximize their profits. So they want to pay their developers as little as possible. American web developers can earn as much as $300,000/yr at places like Google, and...
Those firms are looking to maximize their profits. So they want to pay their developers as little as possible. American web developers can earn as much as $300,000/yr at places like Google, and easily $150,000 at startups. Even on the lower end you’re looking at $70,000/yr. Compared to maybe $30-40,000/yr for a European developer it’s no contest if they can handle the time zone difference and difficulty in wrangling remote developers.
I would absolutely recommend against any contracting firm for web work that is beyond the basics. If your brother has a real budget for this project then he should hire developers. Getting that ball rolling will take a few months. He may need to contract out the hiring process.
+1 to the recommendation his daughter gets a CS degree. Some schools also offer a software engineering degree which might be more interesting as it’s less theoretical. If you can enjoy the work it’s the most abundant job that’s also well paid. You can get many weeks of paid vacation, 6 figures, and tons of other benefits right out of college.
This is 100% the problem. You just have to think, is it more likely that no one in America realized that programming pays lots of money and has many open positions, or that this company is...
This is 100% the problem. You just have to think, is it more likely that no one in America realized that programming pays lots of money and has many open positions, or that this company is offering below the market rate so every programmer decided to work somewhere else that pays much more.
It's entirely possible these companies are hiring internationally to keep costs down because their pay is too low for local developers. It's a pretty common issue in tech, as I understand.
It's entirely possible these companies are hiring internationally to keep costs down because their pay is too low for local developers. It's a pretty common issue in tech, as I understand.
This is almost certainly the case. This is one of the big complaints of the H1-B visa program that brings developers from other countries to the US. Companies will post job listings at way below...
This is almost certainly the case. This is one of the big complaints of the H1-B visa program that brings developers from other countries to the US. Companies will post job listings at way below market rate, then point to the fact that they got no takers and tell Congress, "We need more H1-B slots because there aren't enough American's to fill the positions!"
(Note that I'm not in any way trying to denigrate people who are here on H1-B visas. I work with many and consider them my friends and good engineers. Not all companies using the system do the above, but many do.)
Eh, I think that's something that seems far more prevalent than it is really. For one, when you hire H1-Bs these are the actual qualifications you need to fulfill for the US government It's only...
Eh, I think that's something that seems far more prevalent than it is really. For one, when you hire H1-Bs these are the actual qualifications you need to fulfill for the US government
Bachelor's or higher degree or its equivalent is normally the minimum entry requirement for the position.
The degree requirement for the job is common to the industry, or the job is so complex or unique that it can be performed only by an individual with a degree.
The employer normally requires a degree or its equivalent for the position.
The nature of the specific duties is so specialized and complex that the knowledge required to perform the duties is usually associated with the attainment of a bachelor's or higher degree.
It's only when you are "H1-B dependent" that you must "prove that there are no US workers available", and that status applies to very, very few major companies.
Furthermore, when you hire an H1B worker you have to pay them the "prevailing wage" which is between the 60th to 80th percentile in the area depending on which administration it is. There's definitely cheaper labor!
I guess you’re right. It seems like they’ve improved it over the years and it’s not as bad as it once was. About 20 years ago I was doing a contract for AT&T in Chicago. They were paying me...
I guess you’re right. It seems like they’ve improved it over the years and it’s not as bad as it once was. About 20 years ago I was doing a contract for AT&T in Chicago. They were paying me something like $120,000 / year for some really basic programming tasks. Meanwhile they had hired a Chinese national with a PhD on an H1-B visa and were paying him $30,000/year. It was pretty ridiculous. Glad to hear it’s improved!
I was more referring to hiring foreign-based workers, H1-B visas are a totally different can of worms. AFAIK, you don't need an H1-B if you're working remotely from Russia.
I was more referring to hiring foreign-based workers, H1-B visas are a totally different can of worms. AFAIK, you don't need an H1-B if you're working remotely from Russia.
Totally. The point I was trying to make (and didn't do very well) was that the reasons for both are the same — namely the cost of foreign labor being cheaper. (Or at least, were the same back in...
Totally. The point I was trying to make (and didn't do very well) was that the reasons for both are the same — namely the cost of foreign labor being cheaper. (Or at least, were the same back in the day.)
There are plenty of us, we just aren't willing to work for $35k/year. So companies pretend there aren't many of us to justify outsourcing to cheaper countries.
There are plenty of us, we just aren't willing to work for $35k/year. So companies pretend there aren't many of us to justify outsourcing to cheaper countries.
There are colleges that cost 35k a semester now. Just maybe people whom pay 4 years or more at 70k each for a degree that's practically required for any programming job would like to not be in...
There are colleges that cost 35k a semester now.
Just maybe people whom pay 4 years or more at 70k each for a degree that's practically required for any programming job would like to not be in debt for eternity.
Part of my job is interviewing software engineers. This is not a requirement almost anywhere in the Bay Area. Even the big companies will say “bachelor’s degree or equivalent experience”. Honestly...
practically required for any programming job
Part of my job is interviewing software engineers. This is not a requirement almost anywhere in the Bay Area. Even the big companies will say “bachelor’s degree or equivalent experience”. Honestly if someone has 4 years of real dev experience that’s WAY more valuable than 4 years in college.
I would say it's probably something specific to his situation: trying to contract web development work out to a third party. That already implies that the company doesn't really care about that...
I would say it's probably something specific to his situation: trying to contract web development work out to a third party. That already implies that the company doesn't really care about that web framework too much (if they'd did, they would be hiring an inhouse team to handle it - it's a common mistake to thing that tech stacks are things that you can just buy and leave there like a piece of machinery!).
The market for "consultants who get you something that vaguely works for the cheapest possible price" is going to have mainly developers from cheaper localities that accept cheaper wages on a dollar basis - that's how you get the cheapest possible price. US developers are just too expensive for that.
On the other hand, you do have companies like Accenture who will get you contracted work made by US developers, but they're probably not even being considered because it's going to cost the company an arm and a leg too much.
I'm sure there's plenty of supply for people hiring employees in house - a lot of coding bootcamps these days.
Spouse is a manager for a U.S.-based (all U.S. employees) bespoke web programming company. They have a market niche specialization that might be what your brother is looking for. I'm eliding...
Spouse is a manager for a U.S.-based (all U.S. employees) bespoke web programming company.
They have a market niche specialization that might be what your brother is looking for. I'm eliding specifics because it's pretty simple to figure out who they are once you know the niche, but Accenture is one of their clients. PM me with details, and I'll see if the project is in their wheelhouse. Because of the specialization, it might be less costly than other dev shops building from scratch.
If it’s contract work, it will be harder to find experienced developers. The health insurance alone offered through many contracting firms is awful. Because I’m the only one in my household with...
If it’s contract work, it will be harder to find experienced developers. The health insurance alone offered through many contracting firms is awful. Because I’m the only one in my household with the ability to get health insurance, I would never risk going bankrupt with contract work.
I mean this really tells the whole story I know there's a + there, but it's still the wrong order of magnitude. I'm not even sure I'd consider myself a midlevel engineer and $1m wouldn't be enough...
I mean this really tells the whole story
$1M+ price tag, will take up to one year, and involves heavy web e-commerce and image rendering. Very ambitious project. Will take a team of 10-20 and long term dev contracts.
...
...desperately need the Project Manager level developers to Lead the Teams
I know there's a + there, but it's still the wrong order of magnitude. I'm not even sure I'd consider myself a midlevel engineer and $1m wouldn't be enough to pay 4 of me to work on it for a year, forget senior/staff level engineers.
The US actually does have a short supply of senior engineers in all development fields (only relative to demand, though - there's plenty of them that exist, just far more roles), and the ones that do have that experience can command half of their entire budget in just their own compensation.
If you were to hire internally a 10-person development team (which would be maybe 7 developers, 1 designer, 1 project manager, 1 engineering manager) would probably cost you (very conservatively)...
If you were to hire internally a 10-person development team (which would be maybe 7 developers, 1 designer, 1 project manager, 1 engineering manager) would probably cost you (very conservatively) $2.5MM per year in fully-loaded cost just for labor.
There's a reason so much of silicon valley lives off of VC funding. Software companies need years to build a good product and market share, and good employees cost a lot of money. Hence funding rounds on the order of magnitude of 100s of millions or billions of dollars.
Edit:
I would recommend your brother talk with someone that has experience in building software products - either an experienced CTO or CEO. Unless he knows someone like that he'll have to pay for their time. There are a few contracting CTOs out there that have already made plenty of money but want something to do that provides a little extra income.
You might direct your brother to look to companies (I saw Accenture mentioned) which do a lot of classified/sensitive government work. While they won’t have devs doing public facing websites, a...
You might direct your brother to look to companies (I saw Accenture mentioned) which do a lot of classified/sensitive government work. While they won’t have devs doing public facing websites, a lot of large facilities have a fairly extensive intranet (like my workplace); and the people will definitely be American citizens working in the United States. They might even appreciate having something for uncleared personnel to do.
Those firms are looking to maximize their profits. So they want to pay their developers as little as possible. American web developers can earn as much as $300,000/yr at places like Google, and easily $150,000 at startups. Even on the lower end you’re looking at $70,000/yr. Compared to maybe $30-40,000/yr for a European developer it’s no contest if they can handle the time zone difference and difficulty in wrangling remote developers.
I would absolutely recommend against any contracting firm for web work that is beyond the basics. If your brother has a real budget for this project then he should hire developers. Getting that ball rolling will take a few months. He may need to contract out the hiring process.
+1 to the recommendation his daughter gets a CS degree. Some schools also offer a software engineering degree which might be more interesting as it’s less theoretical. If you can enjoy the work it’s the most abundant job that’s also well paid. You can get many weeks of paid vacation, 6 figures, and tons of other benefits right out of college.
This is 100% the problem. You just have to think, is it more likely that no one in America realized that programming pays lots of money and has many open positions, or that this company is offering below the market rate so every programmer decided to work somewhere else that pays much more.
It's entirely possible these companies are hiring internationally to keep costs down because their pay is too low for local developers. It's a pretty common issue in tech, as I understand.
This is almost certainly the case. This is one of the big complaints of the H1-B visa program that brings developers from other countries to the US. Companies will post job listings at way below market rate, then point to the fact that they got no takers and tell Congress, "We need more H1-B slots because there aren't enough American's to fill the positions!"
(Note that I'm not in any way trying to denigrate people who are here on H1-B visas. I work with many and consider them my friends and good engineers. Not all companies using the system do the above, but many do.)
Eh, I think that's something that seems far more prevalent than it is really. For one, when you hire H1-Bs these are the actual qualifications you need to fulfill for the US government
It's only when you are "H1-B dependent" that you must "prove that there are no US workers available", and that status applies to very, very few major companies.
Furthermore, when you hire an H1B worker you have to pay them the "prevailing wage" which is between the 60th to 80th percentile in the area depending on which administration it is. There's definitely cheaper labor!
I guess you’re right. It seems like they’ve improved it over the years and it’s not as bad as it once was. About 20 years ago I was doing a contract for AT&T in Chicago. They were paying me something like $120,000 / year for some really basic programming tasks. Meanwhile they had hired a Chinese national with a PhD on an H1-B visa and were paying him $30,000/year. It was pretty ridiculous. Glad to hear it’s improved!
I was more referring to hiring foreign-based workers, H1-B visas are a totally different can of worms. AFAIK, you don't need an H1-B if you're working remotely from Russia.
Totally. The point I was trying to make (and didn't do very well) was that the reasons for both are the same — namely the cost of foreign labor being cheaper. (Or at least, were the same back in the day.)
There are plenty of us, we just aren't willing to work for $35k/year. So companies pretend there aren't many of us to justify outsourcing to cheaper countries.
There are colleges that cost 35k a semester now.
Just maybe people whom pay 4 years or more at 70k each for a degree that's practically required for any programming job would like to not be in debt for eternity.
Part of my job is interviewing software engineers. This is not a requirement almost anywhere in the Bay Area. Even the big companies will say “bachelor’s degree or equivalent experience”. Honestly if someone has 4 years of real dev experience that’s WAY more valuable than 4 years in college.
If you are paying $70k/year for a computer science degree you are getting ripped off.
Most web development positions don't even require a degree
I would say it's probably something specific to his situation: trying to contract web development work out to a third party. That already implies that the company doesn't really care about that web framework too much (if they'd did, they would be hiring an inhouse team to handle it - it's a common mistake to thing that tech stacks are things that you can just buy and leave there like a piece of machinery!).
The market for "consultants who get you something that vaguely works for the cheapest possible price" is going to have mainly developers from cheaper localities that accept cheaper wages on a dollar basis - that's how you get the cheapest possible price. US developers are just too expensive for that.
On the other hand, you do have companies like Accenture who will get you contracted work made by US developers, but they're probably not even being considered because it's going to cost the company an arm and a leg too much.
I'm sure there's plenty of supply for people hiring employees in house - a lot of coding bootcamps these days.
Spouse is a manager for a U.S.-based (all U.S. employees) bespoke web programming company.
They have a market niche specialization that might be what your brother is looking for. I'm eliding specifics because it's pretty simple to figure out who they are once you know the niche, but Accenture is one of their clients. PM me with details, and I'll see if the project is in their wheelhouse. Because of the specialization, it might be less costly than other dev shops building from scratch.
If it’s contract work, it will be harder to find experienced developers. The health insurance alone offered through many contracting firms is awful. Because I’m the only one in my household with the ability to get health insurance, I would never risk going bankrupt with contract work.
I mean this really tells the whole story
I know there's a + there, but it's still the wrong order of magnitude. I'm not even sure I'd consider myself a midlevel engineer and $1m wouldn't be enough to pay 4 of me to work on it for a year, forget senior/staff level engineers.
The US actually does have a short supply of senior engineers in all development fields (only relative to demand, though - there's plenty of them that exist, just far more roles), and the ones that do have that experience can command half of their entire budget in just their own compensation.
If you were to hire internally a 10-person development team (which would be maybe 7 developers, 1 designer, 1 project manager, 1 engineering manager) would probably cost you (very conservatively) $2.5MM per year in fully-loaded cost just for labor.
There's a reason so much of silicon valley lives off of VC funding. Software companies need years to build a good product and market share, and good employees cost a lot of money. Hence funding rounds on the order of magnitude of 100s of millions or billions of dollars.
Edit:
I would recommend your brother talk with someone that has experience in building software products - either an experienced CTO or CEO. Unless he knows someone like that he'll have to pay for their time. There are a few contracting CTOs out there that have already made plenty of money but want something to do that provides a little extra income.
Edit 2:
Couldn't do math.
@suspended probably the best thing your brother can do is take what budget he has and build a small team of senior developers to create an MVP.
As a developer myself I'm not sure I'd want to join. Sounds like it could be a shitshow.
You might direct your brother to look to companies (I saw Accenture mentioned) which do a lot of classified/sensitive government work. While they won’t have devs doing public facing websites, a lot of large facilities have a fairly extensive intranet (like my workplace); and the people will definitely be American citizens working in the United States. They might even appreciate having something for uncleared personnel to do.