Flattr support
In keeping with Tildes' general philosophy of supporting budding technologies that have the potential to reform large domains of the internet for the better, I think you should look into Flattr (www.flattr.com).
A Flattr subscriber reserves any set amount of money per month which will then get automatically distributed to content creators on the web, in proportion to an algorithmic estimate of how much the user has used that particular site or resource.
First-tier support for Tildes on Flattr would be as simple as registering an account and connecting the tildes.net domain to it. From then on, a percentage of the reserved amount would automatically get transferred to Tildes' account for every Flattr user who uses the site (I myself have generated 64 "Flattrs" on this site as of this moment, which would lead to a significant portion of my reserved $5 to be transfered to Tildes for this month).
For sites that host content creators, like Twitch and YouTube, Flattr offers a deeper support, where Flattrs go toward individual content creators as well as the host site in itself. An intuitive way to connect Tildes to this feature would be to have each upvote of a Tildes post generate a Flattr for the poster. I believe the money would then be divided between the user who was upvoted (if they have a Flattr account) and Tildes' own Flattr account, but I am unsure about the exact fraction that would get routed to the individual poster as opposed to Tildes itself. I'm sure Flattr's tech support can answer this in detail, though. Flattr is currently owned and maintained by the company behind AdBlock.
What do other users think? Is Flattr's model good? Are there other sites or providers that offer a similar service? A notable difference between for example Patreon and Flattr is that Flattr is indirectly based on a "pay what you want" model, which marks a pretty significant shift in economic control from producers to consumers. This will obviously have both advantages and drawbacks. Personally, I think the model has a lot of potential on an arena like the internet, where the sheer number of potential consumers can make microtransaction-based models like Flattr really powerful.
I haven't looked into Flattr lately, but I remember there being a lot of issues and privacy concerns with it, especially since it was acquired by the company that owns Adblock Plus last year (and Adblock Plus has a lot of its own issues).
Here's a discussion on HN with a lot of concerns about "Flattr 2.0" that launched in October: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15557954
Lots of interesting information there. Unfortunately enough to overwhelm me. I'm not really the best person to sift through troves of information to find the truly important or relevant nuggets to the big picture. Hopefully someone else has the attention span to try to do a real comparison.
I did note that Flattr seems to have changed their fee policies since that discussion, though: https://blog.flattr.com/2018/02/flattr-fees/. For now and for a while, Flattr will remain fee-free, but they still plan on introducing a 10% total fee at some later date.
As tildez pointed out in a parallel comment, however, Flattr is based on a centralized model, and it is not open-source. Those are real problems. Unfortunately, decentralized blockchain-based systems like Brave come with their own drawbacks, like long-term energy inefficiency. Hopefully this thread can serve as a forum for comparison between and evaluation of similar systems, and ultimately help Tildes decide which system is most fitting.
I think my biggest takeaway from the HN thread is the privacy and data collection concerns. I couldn't care less about the fee structures... 5-10% is reasonable. However the fact the extension is collecting and retaining data locally from places it really shouldn't be is concerning:
It being closed source also makes me incredibly wary of it since there is no way to verify they have fixed the issues (or if they introduced new ones) other than through regular reverse engineering.
They open-sourced the extension in January, but there hasn't been much development activity: https://github.com/flattr/flattr-extension
Well that definitely allays some of my concerns! Thanks.
Those are certainly valid concerns. It would be great if we could get their team to respond to them, or, even better, if there was an open-source alternative of similar design. Brave certainly seems interesting, but as I said I still fear their blockchain-based approach will prove energy-prohibitive in the long run.
Yeah, I am wary of mining based cryptocurrencies for the same reason. It seems like such a massive waste of energy. However I also don't quite understand the pressing need for adopting any alternatives when Patreon (and the option to just donate directly) already exists. If/when some of these funding alternatives actually prove themselves trustworthy and viable long-term, then sure, there is no harm in including them. But for now, they just seem a bit risky.
Fair point. I guess I just though that, if we could identify one truly worthy contender that uses a Flattr-like paradigm, Tildes' adoption of it might help it kick off. An economic initiative like Flattr is likely to face a lot of resistance from powerful economic actors simply because it threatens the economic status quo. This is not necessarily the case for a site like Tildes, which doesn't have an economical mission statement. So an initiative like Flattr might really need the extra leverage from sponsors like Tildes to have any chance to take off. This is of course assuming Tildes itself hits the critical mass it needs to break it big. I'm optimistic on that point though. This site is really well-designed, and the atmosphere and overall quality of exchange already feel so far above and beyond what I've come to expect from Reddit.
You're right, though. Tildes shouldn't adopt any system like Flattr until we can collectively be more or less certain that that system won't backfire, whether in terms of digital security/integrity or environmental footprint. Maybe this continued discussion will turn up a better option than either of the one's we've talked about so far.
Oh for sure, this is definitely a good discussion worth having and there have been a few similar suggestions in the past (e.g. Liberapay, Brave partner program, etc) so please don't take my criticism of Flattr as dismissal of the idea entirely, since that's definitely not my intention. And you're right that adoption is the only way to make these alternatives work, but I think Tildes being selective, highly critical and cautious of these new funding models isn't a bad thing either, especially where user privacy issues are a concern.
Agree 100%.
As far as privacy issues go, however, while Flattr may raise a few concerns of its own in that area, it's worth remembering that AdBlock's core aim with their acquisition of Flattr is for the service to render obsolete and ultimately replace something that might already be a much bigger problem from a privacy and integrity point of view: digital advertising. In that sense, going with Flattr could be a case of choosing the considerably lesser evil. But, as you said, there may be even better solutions, and which course is optimal certainly bears both thinking and talking about.
See, where you see a positive in their acquisition by Eyeo/AdBlock, I actually see a major cause for concern. The bottom line is that I absolutely do not trust Eyeo after their "acceptable" ad whitelisting BS, which is the reason I now use uBlock Origin and not Adblock Plus anymore.
I actually use uBlock too. But I kinda do understand AdBlock's perspective. It was obvious that they felt bad about throttling all ads for some time even before they acquired Flattr, and I do understand why. For better or worse, online jounalism as well as a ton of other kinds of sites, such as wikis, have become utterly dependant on digital ads for their revenue. This is a privacy nightmare, not to mention a major nuisance. But the solution to simply throttle all ads leave all those sites without the income they need to maintain their services. I actually understand why AdBlock felt a bit bad about that, and I suspect that's why they started whitelisting ads on certain sites. But that is obviously not a great solution either, which is why they then opted to acquire Flattr, which might help solve the problem by rendering digital ads unnecessary while still not financially cutting off important information sources. The wikipedia paragraph you link to seems to confirm that this is indeed what happened.
What you attribute to them "feeling bad" I attribute to pure greed.... it's been suggested they take as much as a 33.3% cut from their "strategic partners" ad revenue, so they clearly don't feel that bad.
Really can't argue with that. I suspect it's a mix of both motivations, but, yeah, you can certainly always trust any corporation to go where the money is.
I use both Flattr and Patreon, and occasionally donate directly to web sites. Of the three I prefer Flattr, mostly for the convenience. I don't have to search Patreon to see if they have an account there, and I don't have to search the web site for a donate button; everything is automatic.
There is definitely something to be said for the power of convenience and I do think the model of donate-as-you-browse is a great idea... I just don't know how much I trust Eyeo (makers of adblock plus) who now owns Flattr to be the one behind it, is all.
But don't you still have to check if the website participates in Flattr? There's no point you giving your money to Flattr to support a website if the website owners haven't signed up to Flattr - they won't get your money.
The money is split between the sites and content creators that participate (which sadly aren't very many yet). So far this month I've flattred 109 different sites, but it looks like my monthly budget will be split between Red Letter Media and GamingOnLinux.
But yes, if there's a specific site I want to support, I'll either have to nag on them until they become a participant, or find some other way to support them. That's why I still use Patreon and donations as well.
Brave seems to have done a better job than Flattr at signing up creators, but I feel it's kind of silly to build a web browser to do what a web browser extensions can do just as well.
One interesting thing about that fees post is that they mention that their payment provider is MangoPay. MangoPay recently chose to drop Liberapay, which is conceptually pretty similar to Flattr. So I wonder if Flattr's payment provider contract could be in danger as well.
Side note: it's a bit concerning that Flattr hasn't made any blog posts in the last 6 months, when previously they seem to have had one every few weeks or so. They haven't tweeted in over 5 months either.
True. The silence lately has been a bit disconcerting. Recently they kicked off a physical tour campaign, as can be read about in the later blog posts, but what has been going on since then is something of a mystery. The silence is rather deafening.
As for mangopay, I have no idea what their stance might be. It's certainly possible that they might be pressured by some anonymous third party to drop initiatives like Flattr. There is certainly no doubt that certain actors on the market might percieve Flattr's approach as threatening.
Or maybe Liberapay got in trouble because of Flattr? I.e. they somehow obtained MangoPay's help for crushing competition.
First time I've heard of Liberapay. From a quick look at their home page, it looks to have more similarities with Patreon than Flattr.
I think a flattr-like concept might be beneficial for tildes, but I think having the money benefit the individual poster leads directly to people just posting links to content generated by other people just for the monetary benefits.
That's hard to argue with. That would certainly be the case if every upvote was weighted the same, and on second consideration it seems highly likely to lead to a rampant culture of upvote-whoring (pardon the expression). That level of support might not be such a good idea after all, at least not in its currently envisioned form. :(
For Flattr to work, doesn't it have to track how much time I spend on each website? I'm unclear if this is every participating website or if they try to track you even on websites that aren't enrolled in the program (for growth-hacking purposes, I'm sure they'd love to tell website owners "if you signed up for Flattr, the traffic you already have would net you $X/mo").
Meh. Strikes me as another way of collecting data on a huge swath of web users, and doing it with excellent camouflage about how they've gotta collect that data to help out the little guy.
There is definitely a lot of data collection involved. Flattr uses a closed-source algorithm to determine how many "flattrs" should go to a given visited page or resource. Time spent is part of it, but it also takes into account like how far you scroll on a given page. You can also add extra manual flattrs simply by clicking a button. It is possible to override the algorithm by manually editing the number of flattrs allocated to each page before the payment is made, but the data collection for the algorithm will obviously still be a concern. I'm not sure how much of said data remains on your client as opposed to getting sent to their servers, though.
Correction: The algorithm may actually well be open-source, since Flattr recently open-sourced their client: https://github.com/flattr/flattr-extension
But I'm already doing that. I signed up to Patreon and I nominated exactly how much money I wanted to contribute to Tildes each month. I am already paying what I want to pay.
I also note this entry in their FAQ:
So, I would only contribute to Tildes if I spent "enough active time" on the site. But what if I was a lurker who wanted to contribute to Tildes just out of the goodness of my heart, rather than how much I'm active on the site?
And this one:
That would seem to be a big and important restriction, given how many people browse via mobile devices these days.
For the use case you describe, Patreon certainly seems more appropriate. Flattr is more geared towards users that want to reserve a fixed amount that they are prepared to spend toward supporting resources on the internet each month, and would rather let an algorithm work out the specifics of how the amount should be distributed. Flattr also has the added advantage of being extremely easy to sign up for and configure. You just sign up for the service and you're done and will begin financially supporting any and all Flattr-connected sites you visit simply by spending time on them. This eliminates the tedious overhead of having to go through a specific routine for every single site or content creator that you want to support, which in turn makes it plausible for Flattr publishers to reach much higher numbers of passive supporters.
In the end, I see an advantage to using both. Patreon is great for supporting the content creators you are particularly passionate about supporting, and want to be certain to support with a minimum amount per month. Flattr is more geared towards conveniently tipping all those other resources you habitually make use of. It's intended to serve as an alternative means of financing to digital advertising, which is why AdBlock bought the company.
Be careful: you're starting to sound like an advertisement for Flattr. :)
Thanks for the warning, I'm sure I am. :) I am rather passionate about it. Not necessarily for Flattr itself, but I really like the idea of passively supporting sites and resources on the internet simply through the act of consuming them. Part of the reason being that I really hate online ads, and not just for the data mining concerns they create. But I also understand the need for online journalism and wiki sites to finance themselves. Initiatives like Flattr (Brave seems like another option, sounding all the more interesting for being decentralized) seem like they just might provide a solution.
Privacy issues aside, I don't think it'd be very valuable. Apparently Flattr's been around for 7 years, but the Chrome extension only has 1503 users. I couldn't find the Firefox extension on addons.mozilla.org, but Firefox's market share is 17.4% of Chrome's suggesting that Firefox contributes an additional 261 users. That's a total of 1764 users, which doesn't seem like that much, especially when you consider this only measures extension installs and not necessarily people who are active with it.
That's kind of the point of this whole discussion though: to determine whether Flattr is fundamentally a good idea which deserves to succeed and to be bigger than it is, and if so, whether Tildes' early adoption of it (before Tildes itself succeeds) might provide it with positive leverage.
I think Brave's token-based strategy is much better than the centralized options like flattr, except that you currently have to use the Brave browser for it to work.
Hm, seems interesting. If it's based on the Ethereum blockchain, though, or indeed any kind of blockchain, doesn't that mean that each new generated token will require more energy than the last? If so the system could quickly grow unsustainable due to the sheer energy demands.
It's based on the Ethereum blockchain, and while I'm not as familiar with it as I am with the Bitcoin blockchain, I can safely say that as a Proof of Work blockchain, the "energy" required for every new block is dynamic and self-corrects according to the total hashing power of the network. As more nodes enter the network and more hashing power is available, the difficulty and "energy" required will increase/scale to maintain the blockchain's output rate. But as nodes drop out and the hashing power of the network goes down, the "energy" required will also follow. The network tries to maintain a steady output rate of X seconds/minutes per block (depending on the particular blockchain).
Digital tokens are more hassle though. Brave users have to buy them from exchanges, content creators have to sell them on exchanges.
I don't know anything about Flattr but I generally thought that "flat rate" pricing over a wide list of services could be an alternative to the ad-supported, which is exciting to me.