An Il-76 military transport crashes in Russia near the Ukraine border, which Russia claims was shot down by Ukraine, and claims had Ukrainian POWs aboard... and somehow that proves Ukraine is a...
An Il-76 military transport crashes in Russia near the Ukraine border, which Russia claims was shot down by Ukraine, and claims had Ukrainian POWs aboard... and somehow that proves Ukraine is a "Nazi regime" and that Biden, Macron, Scholz, and other politicians should be impeached? Okay, Russia. Whatever you say.
TBH, I don't think this is even newsworthy, at all. The crash itself is, and other news orgs have covered it far better. But not this article, which only covers Russia's incredibly predictable response to the crash.
One reason this is (tangentially) noteworthy is that it highlights that the divide between Eastern and and Western fronts in WW2 never got closed. In the West, the Nazis are the worst bad guys...
One reason this is (tangentially) noteworthy is that it highlights that the divide between Eastern and and Western fronts in WW2 never got closed. In the West, the Nazis are the worst bad guys there ever were, but that's mostly because they killed Jews. For Russia, the Nazis are the worst thing that ever existed (#1: Nazis, #2: Satan), and it's because they came and killed TWENTY-SEVEN MILLION Russians.
In the West, we think "how could we be Nazis? We're literally giving weapons to Israel!" That part barely factors in when Russians think about Nazis.
I’ve been following the war in Ukraine fairly closely, and I didn’t get the whole “Nazi” thing. It was so absurd on so many levels that I couldn’t believe that Russians actually believed it. Until...
I’ve been following the war in Ukraine fairly closely, and I didn’t get the whole “Nazi” thing. It was so absurd on so many levels that I couldn’t believe that Russians actually believed it. Until it was explained to me that in Russia, a Nazi is anyone who is an enemy. It’s like circular or backwards logic that you can’t reason with. The most infuriating part is when western right wingers drink the kool aid and repeat the propaganda; because they really should know better. But again, these beliefs aren’t tethered to reality.
That's not really accurate - or at least, it's more complicated than that. From the Times: Is Ukraine led by a nazi regime? No. Does Ukraine need to be de-nazified? No. Is this whole thing...
Until it was explained to me that in Russia, a Nazi is anyone who is an enemy.
That's not really accurate - or at least, it's more complicated than that.
From the Times:
Ukraine has worked for years through legislation and military restructuring to contain a fringe far-right movement whose members proudly wear symbols steeped in Nazi history and espouse views hostile to leftists, L.G.B.T.Q. movements and ethnic minorities. But some members of these groups have been fighting Russia since the Kremlin illegally annexed part of the Crimea region of Ukraine in 2014 and are now part of the broader military structure. Some are regarded as national heroes, even as the far-right remains marginalized politically.
The iconography of these groups, including a skull-and-crossbones patch worn by concentration camp guards and a symbol known as the Black Sun, now appears with some regularity on the uniforms of soldiers fighting on the front line, including soldiers who say the imagery symbolizes Ukrainian sovereignty and pride, not Nazism.
In the short term, that threatens to reinforce Mr. Putin’s propaganda and give fuel to his false claims that Ukraine must be “de-Nazified” — a position that ignores the fact that Ukraine’s president, Volodymyr Zelensky, is Jewish. More broadly, Ukraine’s ambivalence about these symbols, and sometimes even its acceptance of them, risks giving new, mainstream life to icons that the West has spent more than a half-century trying to eliminate...
Is Ukraine led by a nazi regime? No. Does Ukraine need to be de-nazified? No. Is this whole thing basically a justification for war by Putin? Yes. And are there groups in Ukraine that wear Nazi imagery? Also yes.
The point of all this is that if Russia was at war with china, I very much doubt that they'd be claiming the Chinese are nazis. It's more complicated than "enemy = nazi".
I can guarantee that is a minority, and most of Ukrainians don't want to have anything common with it. Yes, there some individuals that thinks different, but they in minority, and they did not...
I can guarantee that
proudly wear symbols steeped in Nazi history and espouse views hostile to leftists, L.G.B.T.Q. movements and ethnic minorities.
is a minority, and most of Ukrainians don't want to have anything common with it. Yes, there some individuals that thinks different, but they in minority, and they did not play any significant role.
The iconography of these groups, including a skull-and-crossbones patch worn by concentration camp guards and a symbol known as the Black Sun, now appears with some regularity on the uniforms of soldiers fighting on the front line
"some regularity" is quite broad term. Is it one or five or seven soldiers?
I understand that news should be always newsworthy, and if you don't know numbers you will use blurred concepts instead of telling that you don't know, but its frustrates me a bit because its paints picture with some narrative instead of telling facts.
Yes, of course. I'd hoped that my comments about this whole denazification thing being a Russian propaganda ploy made that clear, but evidently not - so thank you for the comment.
is a minority, and most of Ukrainians don't want to have anything common with it.
Yes, of course. I'd hoped that my comments about this whole denazification thing being a Russian propaganda ploy made that clear, but evidently not - so thank you for the comment.
It isn’t though. Like it was stated above, we’re talking about a collective memory of being invaded by Nazis and millions of Russians dying as a result of ww2. If China invaded Russia, they would...
It's more complicated than "enemy = nazi".
It isn’t though. Like it was stated above, we’re talking about a collective memory of being invaded by Nazis and millions of Russians dying as a result of ww2. If China invaded Russia, they would 100% be labeled nazis. They would dig up that 1 Chinese dude who has a swastica for no reason and plaster that on tv 24/7.
Edit: this isn’t to dismiss issues of white supremacy or antisemitism in Ukraine. But I think it’s important to keep in mind WHY Ukrainians are being labeled as Nazis by Putins regime and why it “works” as domestic propaganda. The typical Russian doesn’t see any nuance and certainly doesn’t share western values. I would also argue that the Russian regime has behaved like Nazi war criminals, as evidenced by their mass deportation, kidnapping, indiscriminate killing of civilians, mass graves, use of sexual violence.
I think a pretty apt comparison to how "Nazi" is used in Russia is the way "Socialist" or "Communist" is used in the US. There is a generation or two to whom "Communist" is this vague bad guy...
I think a pretty apt comparison to how "Nazi" is used in Russia is the way "Socialist" or "Communist" is used in the US.
There is a generation or two to whom "Communist" is this vague bad guy that's behind everything bad in the world and "Socialism" is what happens when you let the "Communists" have any power.
Never mind that the people sprouting those words have zero idea what communism or socialism are, but that's what they were fed as propaganda when they were at an age where their ideology formed.
Ehm, not true about Russia part? In general, Russians like Nazi, during WW2 Russia support them when Nazi were bombarding UK. They donʼt like Nazi and later Germany due two reasons: Nazi attacked...
Ehm, not true about Russia part? In general, Russians like Nazi, during WW2 Russia support them when Nazi were bombarding UK. They donʼt like Nazi and later Germany due two reasons:
Nazi attacked earlier them they;
Germany get success [especially economically] while Russia — not;
Germany is USAʼs dog [donʼt search here meaning].
Summary: they hate Nazi mostly because ony they could be a true Nazi. Nothing new in Russian history, Russian communist didnʼt like even other Russian communist or a person with very simillar idealogy during and after Russian Civil War. Aka «thereʼs only one emperor» ideology.
TWENTY-SEVEN MILLION Russians.
Keep in mind that Soviet is basically renamed Russia Empire with many different peoples. Yeah, Russians and readers Russian infosphere often forget this thing.
An Il-76 military transport crashes in Russia near the Ukraine border, which Russia claims was shot down by Ukraine, and claims had Ukrainian POWs aboard... and somehow that proves Ukraine is a "Nazi regime" and that Biden, Macron, Scholz, and other politicians should be impeached? Okay, Russia. Whatever you say.
TBH, I don't think this is even newsworthy, at all. The crash itself is, and other news orgs have covered it far better. But not this article, which only covers Russia's incredibly predictable response to the crash.
One reason this is (tangentially) noteworthy is that it highlights that the divide between Eastern and and Western fronts in WW2 never got closed. In the West, the Nazis are the worst bad guys there ever were, but that's mostly because they killed Jews. For Russia, the Nazis are the worst thing that ever existed (#1: Nazis, #2: Satan), and it's because they came and killed TWENTY-SEVEN MILLION Russians.
In the West, we think "how could we be Nazis? We're literally giving weapons to Israel!" That part barely factors in when Russians think about Nazis.
I’ve been following the war in Ukraine fairly closely, and I didn’t get the whole “Nazi” thing. It was so absurd on so many levels that I couldn’t believe that Russians actually believed it. Until it was explained to me that in Russia, a Nazi is anyone who is an enemy. It’s like circular or backwards logic that you can’t reason with. The most infuriating part is when western right wingers drink the kool aid and repeat the propaganda; because they really should know better. But again, these beliefs aren’t tethered to reality.
That's not really accurate - or at least, it's more complicated than that.
From the Times:
Is Ukraine led by a nazi regime? No. Does Ukraine need to be de-nazified? No. Is this whole thing basically a justification for war by Putin? Yes. And are there groups in Ukraine that wear Nazi imagery? Also yes.
The point of all this is that if Russia was at war with china, I very much doubt that they'd be claiming the Chinese are nazis. It's more complicated than "enemy = nazi".
I can guarantee that
is a minority, and most of Ukrainians don't want to have anything common with it. Yes, there some individuals that thinks different, but they in minority, and they did not play any significant role.
"some regularity" is quite broad term. Is it one or five or seven soldiers?
I understand that news should be always newsworthy, and if you don't know numbers you will use blurred concepts instead of telling that you don't know, but its frustrates me a bit because its paints picture with some narrative instead of telling facts.
Yes, of course. I'd hoped that my comments about this whole denazification thing being a Russian propaganda ploy made that clear, but evidently not - so thank you for the comment.
It isn’t though. Like it was stated above, we’re talking about a collective memory of being invaded by Nazis and millions of Russians dying as a result of ww2. If China invaded Russia, they would 100% be labeled nazis. They would dig up that 1 Chinese dude who has a swastica for no reason and plaster that on tv 24/7.
Edit: this isn’t to dismiss issues of white supremacy or antisemitism in Ukraine. But I think it’s important to keep in mind WHY Ukrainians are being labeled as Nazis by Putins regime and why it “works” as domestic propaganda. The typical Russian doesn’t see any nuance and certainly doesn’t share western values. I would also argue that the Russian regime has behaved like Nazi war criminals, as evidenced by their mass deportation, kidnapping, indiscriminate killing of civilians, mass graves, use of sexual violence.
I think a pretty apt comparison to how "Nazi" is used in Russia is the way "Socialist" or "Communist" is used in the US.
There is a generation or two to whom "Communist" is this vague bad guy that's behind everything bad in the world and "Socialism" is what happens when you let the "Communists" have any power.
Never mind that the people sprouting those words have zero idea what communism or socialism are, but that's what they were fed as propaganda when they were at an age where their ideology formed.
Ehm, not true about Russia part? In general, Russians like Nazi, during WW2 Russia support them when Nazi were bombarding UK. They donʼt like Nazi and later Germany due two reasons:
Summary: they hate Nazi mostly because ony they could be a true Nazi. Nothing new in Russian history, Russian communist didnʼt like even other Russian communist or a person with very simillar idealogy during and after Russian Civil War. Aka «thereʼs only one emperor» ideology.
Keep in mind that Soviet is basically renamed Russia Empire with many different peoples. Yeah, Russians and readers Russian infosphere often forget this thing.
There're some MH17 sleuths who could definitely help with that.