While I support congestion pricing, I'm not sure why so many people seem confused as to why Hochul axed it. It's just politics. Polling wise, as you'd expect, congestion pricing is well liked...
While I support congestion pricing, I'm not sure why so many people seem confused as to why Hochul axed it. It's just politics. Polling wise, as you'd expect, congestion pricing is well liked inside of NYC, but has an abysmal rating in the rest of the state, with around 70% disapproving.
NY state democrats are fearful of rocking the boat because unlike the rest of the country, the "red wave" DID happen in NY, with many democrats losing seats to republicans in the midterms. Considering how poorly congestion pricing polls in the seats most at danger, it's no surprise they are being cautious before the election. NYC congressional districts certainly isn't flipping red anytime soon.
From a democratic point of view, while NYC is very dominant population wise on a relative scale, it's still 43% of the NY population - not a majority. Given the polls, you can argue Hochul's decision is the overall will of the people.
If the majority of a democracy wants to do something stupid, it'll do something stupid. That's democracy - you have to take the good with the bad.
Yet the majority of the residents actually affected by the policy were in support of it. Why dilute their consensus with outsiders whose votes shouldn't matter? It'd be like Pennsylvania having a...
If the majority of a democracy wants to do something stupid, it'll do something stupid. That's democracy - you have to take the good with the bad.
Yet the majority of the residents actually affected by the policy were in support of it. Why dilute their consensus with outsiders whose votes shouldn't matter? It'd be like Pennsylvania having a referendum on a city policy enacted by Wheeling, VW and complaining about how it restricts free trade to Ohio.
Because New York City commuters extend beyond NYC. Argurably this pricing affect more so for people working and commuting to the city rather people living in Manhattan.
Because New York City commuters extend beyond NYC. Argurably this pricing affect more so for people working and commuting to the city rather people living in Manhattan.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-26/mapping-how-people-commute-to-manhattan Link has a map that shows how people commute to the city. Map is a little outdated, but still holds...
Link has a map that shows how people commute to the city. Map is a little outdated, but still holds weight. Most people who live in the city tend to commute into the city via subway unless you live in transit desert or have poor public transit.
The map shows where we are failing to give people convienent public transit in areas such as Bergen and Rockland county. Orange and Rockland county are served by Port Jervis line via NJ transit but the train comes every 40 mins ish during rush hour and 90 mins during during off peak with a transfer at Secaucus Junction to Penn Station. Bergen county is served by Port Authority buses and NJ transit. So many drive to manhattan instead because it's more convenient than the rail option.
Where I live, most people complain because this congestion plan would cost more money to get to the city without actually improving the local public rail or bus option. My observation, people who are most affected aren't white collar or professional class, but blue collar workers or contractors.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor for congestion plan. But I still think it's flawed since never address the public transit gap in the tristate area.
Well this goes in the circle of "you can't do that, it's gerrymandering, you're diluting them and letting the other party get more people on a national level". I personally feel districts should...
Well this goes in the circle of "you can't do that, it's gerrymandering, you're diluting them and letting the other party get more people on a national level".
I personally feel districts should make local sense FIRST and national level interest second, but obviously both parties have a vested interest in taking both sides of the fight as it suits them.
This is still a failure of Hochul and NY Dems not doing a proper gerrymander. I despise gerrymandering but this is the result of unilaterally disarming and shoring up Democratic incumbents instead...
NY state democrats are fearful of rocking the boat because unlike the rest of the country, the "red wave" DID happen in NY, with many democrats losing seats to republicans in the midterms. Considering how poorly congestion pricing polls in the seats most at danger, it's no surprise they are being cautious before the election. NYC congressional districts certainly isn't flipping red anytime soon.
This is still a failure of Hochul and NY Dems not doing a proper gerrymander. I despise gerrymandering but this is the result of unilaterally disarming and shoring up Democratic incumbents instead of drawing maps where this isn’t a problem.
They failed to gerrymander at all, and failed to campaign in general. The judge rejected democrat redistricting boundaries in 2022 coupled with the fear of the city espicially since little was...
They failed to gerrymander at all, and failed to campaign in general. The judge rejected democrat redistricting boundaries in 2022 coupled with the fear of the city espicially since little was done with asian attack gave republican plenty of ammo that election season. https://www.npr.org/2022/04/27/1095100208/new-york-redistricting-rejected
No, her decision is terrible politically as well. The decision is to go ahead with congestion pricing as planned, or raise business taxes across the entire state to raise the billion dollars that...
No, her decision is terrible politically as well. The decision is to go ahead with congestion pricing as planned, or raise business taxes across the entire state to raise the billion dollars that would have come from congestion pricing. They can't do neither.
Not only will raising taxes be even less popular than congestion pricing, because it will affect a much larger portion of the state, but they don't even have time to do it because the legislative session ended just days after she made her surprise announcement. Now there is a billion dollar hole in the budget that absolutely must be filled, and her plan is to raise taxes on everyone.
If she had suspended congestion pricing like a year before it was suppose to take effect, fine, you could argue that it's a pragmatic political decision. This close to the deadline, it's terrible politically, terrible environmentally, terrible economically, just a disaster all around.
This kind of program always interests me. They tend to but disadvantaged people hard and don't always have the intended effect. Unless the intended effect is to make money, which it seems may be...
This kind of program always interests me. They tend to but disadvantaged people hard and don't always have the intended effect. Unless the intended effect is to make money, which it seems may be the case here.
The author does try to address the address on disadvantaged folks.
Given the high cost of purchasing and maintaining an automobile, especially in NYC, many low-income residents see the MTA as their best option, given the system’s immense size and small cost.
...
Only 2% of outer-borough commuters in poverty drive into Lower Manhattan for work, and these 5,000 drivers would have qualified for a discount.
They link to this study, which found that folks in poverty in the outer boroughs are three times as likely to own a car (around 5,000 households), no more than three percent of essential workers from outer boroughs would be required to pay the fee daily.
They also point out that the profits would be used in part to extend subway service to East Harlem, to improve access via ramps and elevators, and general improvements like new railcars.
While there is a discount available for folks in poverty, I don't think it's as helpful as it sounds from the vague description as a "discount". The discount is 50%, so the cost will be $7.50 instead of $15 once they're in the low income discount program. To qualify for the program, folks either need to have made less than $50k (gross) the previous year or already be enrolled in another assistance program.
This discount begins after the first 10 trips in a calendar month, and applies to all peak period trips after that.
Folks who live in the toll area and make under $60k may qualify for a state tax credit.
The discount program is my first concern. If we assume 20 working days a month (4 weeks x 5 days a week), without the discount a person will pay $300/month (plus parking, but that's a whole other thing). With the discount, that same person pays 50%, 50% of the time because it only applies after the first 10 trips each month, $225 or $2,700 per year assuming they make this trip each week. This is a pretty huge burden on a low income household.
My second concern is their poverty line as a cutoff. A studio apartment in NY costs $3,113 on average, $37,356 per year. That leaves $12,644 left over in the year, a little over a thousand dollars a month, $35 per week to live on. Obviously most more income folks in poverty apartment, but I don't know how low that might be. There will be a lot of people above that poverty line who are struggling, maybe with college loans, kids or parents to support, etc. I'm bringing this up because of the tax credit for folks who live in the tolled area, they have to pay the tolls before the credit applies.
As for the congestion effect, there's no real way to know how that will work out until the program actually started. I doubt it's super fun for the people driving in right now, they're doing it for a reason. Rather than punitive measures, figuring out what those reasons are and trying to address them seems to me like a better way to clear up traffic. It may cost more for the city, but it seems to me like a more long lived way to handle this kind of problem.
Finally, what about those people who end up tolled anyway, that 3%? Do they not matter because there are only a few of them? If there were only one person who has to pay the full toll, that's an acceptable consequence as far as the government is concerned? I doubt that one person would agree, it's just one more injustice on a pile of injustices they poor always suffer.
“After careful consideration I have come to the difficult decision that implementing the planned congestion pricing system risks too many unintended consequences,” Ms. Hochul said, adding: “I have directed the M.T.A. to indefinitely pause the program.”
I don't think it's all that regressive in practice. The part that's missing is that out of those that own a car in the outer boroughs or NJ, very few of them will drive into Manhattan who are low...
I don't think it's all that regressive in practice. The part that's missing is that out of those that own a car in the outer boroughs or NJ, very few of them will drive into Manhattan who are low income. Parking prices are abysmal - I remember at one point my spot in a deck near work cost me $700/month, which was comp'd by my workkplace. It was already unaffordable if you were low income to drive into NY.
They owned cars because public transit in the outer boroughs is pretty mid, so they need it for groceries, and so forth, not commuting to Manhattan. More likely they would commute to a rail station.
While I support congestion pricing, I'm not sure why so many people seem confused as to why Hochul axed it. It's just politics. Polling wise, as you'd expect, congestion pricing is well liked inside of NYC, but has an abysmal rating in the rest of the state, with around 70% disapproving.
NY state democrats are fearful of rocking the boat because unlike the rest of the country, the "red wave" DID happen in NY, with many democrats losing seats to republicans in the midterms. Considering how poorly congestion pricing polls in the seats most at danger, it's no surprise they are being cautious before the election. NYC congressional districts certainly isn't flipping red anytime soon.
From a democratic point of view, while NYC is very dominant population wise on a relative scale, it's still 43% of the NY population - not a majority. Given the polls, you can argue Hochul's decision is the overall will of the people.
If the majority of a democracy wants to do something stupid, it'll do something stupid. That's democracy - you have to take the good with the bad.
Yet the majority of the residents actually affected by the policy were in support of it. Why dilute their consensus with outsiders whose votes shouldn't matter? It'd be like Pennsylvania having a referendum on a city policy enacted by Wheeling, VW and complaining about how it restricts free trade to Ohio.
The MTA is jointly funded and owned by NY state, as well as the highways and bridges that lead to manhattan and where many of the new tolls would be.
Because New York City commuters extend beyond NYC. Argurably this pricing affect more so for people working and commuting to the city rather people living in Manhattan.
What proportion of NYC commuters drive to/thru the congestion zone in lower manhattan?
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-09-26/mapping-how-people-commute-to-manhattan
Link has a map that shows how people commute to the city. Map is a little outdated, but still holds weight. Most people who live in the city tend to commute into the city via subway unless you live in transit desert or have poor public transit.
The map shows where we are failing to give people convienent public transit in areas such as Bergen and Rockland county. Orange and Rockland county are served by Port Jervis line via NJ transit but the train comes every 40 mins ish during rush hour and 90 mins during during off peak with a transfer at Secaucus Junction to Penn Station. Bergen county is served by Port Authority buses and NJ transit. So many drive to manhattan instead because it's more convenient than the rail option.
Where I live, most people complain because this congestion plan would cost more money to get to the city without actually improving the local public rail or bus option. My observation, people who are most affected aren't white collar or professional class, but blue collar workers or contractors.
Don't get me wrong, I'm in favor for congestion plan. But I still think it's flawed since never address the public transit gap in the tristate area.
Well this goes in the circle of "you can't do that, it's gerrymandering, you're diluting them and letting the other party get more people on a national level".
I personally feel districts should make local sense FIRST and national level interest second, but obviously both parties have a vested interest in taking both sides of the fight as it suits them.
This is still a failure of Hochul and NY Dems not doing a proper gerrymander. I despise gerrymandering but this is the result of unilaterally disarming and shoring up Democratic incumbents instead of drawing maps where this isn’t a problem.
Not only that, but the NY democratic party is chock full of cronyism and infighting. It's downright dirty there.
They failed to gerrymander at all, and failed to campaign in general. The judge rejected democrat redistricting boundaries in 2022 coupled with the fear of the city espicially since little was done with asian attack gave republican plenty of ammo that election season.
https://www.npr.org/2022/04/27/1095100208/new-york-redistricting-rejected
No, her decision is terrible politically as well. The decision is to go ahead with congestion pricing as planned, or raise business taxes across the entire state to raise the billion dollars that would have come from congestion pricing. They can't do neither.
Not only will raising taxes be even less popular than congestion pricing, because it will affect a much larger portion of the state, but they don't even have time to do it because the legislative session ended just days after she made her surprise announcement. Now there is a billion dollar hole in the budget that absolutely must be filled, and her plan is to raise taxes on everyone.
If she had suspended congestion pricing like a year before it was suppose to take effect, fine, you could argue that it's a pragmatic political decision. This close to the deadline, it's terrible politically, terrible environmentally, terrible economically, just a disaster all around.
As a reminder, here's a speech Hochul gave just two weeks before she cancelled congestion pricing explaining why it's a good idea: https://www.governor.ny.gov/news/photos-remarks-prepared-governor-hochul-delivers-keynote-remarks-global-economic-summit.
This kind of program always interests me. They tend to but disadvantaged people hard and don't always have the intended effect. Unless the intended effect is to make money, which it seems may be the case here.
The author does try to address the address on disadvantaged folks.
...
They link to this study, which found that folks in poverty in the outer boroughs are three times as likely to own a car (around 5,000 households), no more than three percent of essential workers from outer boroughs would be required to pay the fee daily.
They also point out that the profits would be used in part to extend subway service to East Harlem, to improve access via ramps and elevators, and general improvements like new railcars.
While there is a discount available for folks in poverty, I don't think it's as helpful as it sounds from the vague description as a "discount". The discount is 50%, so the cost will be $7.50 instead of $15 once they're in the low income discount program. To qualify for the program, folks either need to have made less than $50k (gross) the previous year or already be enrolled in another assistance program.
Folks who live in the toll area and make under $60k may qualify for a state tax credit.
Minimum wage in New York is $16 an hour, $33,280 per year assuming full time, which is often hard to come by in minimum wage jobs.
The discount program is my first concern. If we assume 20 working days a month (4 weeks x 5 days a week), without the discount a person will pay $300/month (plus parking, but that's a whole other thing). With the discount, that same person pays 50%, 50% of the time because it only applies after the first 10 trips each month, $225 or $2,700 per year assuming they make this trip each week. This is a pretty huge burden on a low income household.
My second concern is their poverty line as a cutoff. A studio apartment in NY costs $3,113 on average, $37,356 per year. That leaves $12,644 left over in the year, a little over a thousand dollars a month, $35 per week to live on. Obviously most more income folks in poverty apartment, but I don't know how low that might be. There will be a lot of people above that poverty line who are struggling, maybe with college loans, kids or parents to support, etc. I'm bringing this up because of the tax credit for folks who live in the tolled area, they have to pay the tolls before the credit applies.
As for the congestion effect, there's no real way to know how that will work out until the program actually started. I doubt it's super fun for the people driving in right now, they're doing it for a reason. Rather than punitive measures, figuring out what those reasons are and trying to address them seems to me like a better way to clear up traffic. It may cost more for the city, but it seems to me like a more long lived way to handle this kind of problem.
Finally, what about those people who end up tolled anyway, that 3%? Do they not matter because there are only a few of them? If there were only one person who has to pay the full toll, that's an acceptable consequence as far as the government is concerned? I doubt that one person would agree, it's just one more injustice on a pile of injustices they poor always suffer.
This is the reason the governor gave for halting the program. (NY Times)
I don't think it's all that regressive in practice. The part that's missing is that out of those that own a car in the outer boroughs or NJ, very few of them will drive into Manhattan who are low income. Parking prices are abysmal - I remember at one point my spot in a deck near work cost me $700/month, which was comp'd by my workkplace. It was already unaffordable if you were low income to drive into NY.
They owned cars because public transit in the outer boroughs is pretty mid, so they need it for groceries, and so forth, not commuting to Manhattan. More likely they would commute to a rail station.