I can absolutely understand where you're coming from and agree to some degree, but the show absolutely makes of mockery of genuine christian beliefs, too. The character that I think you're saying...
Exemplary
I can absolutely understand where you're coming from and agree to some degree, but the show absolutely makes of mockery of genuine christian beliefs, too. The character that I think you're saying is the stand-in for the christian god is a whiny douche and
later season spoilers
the brothers literally kill him
at the end of the show. Angels are massive dicks, god is mostly absent and doesn't care about his creation, and outside of a few exceptions characters that genuinely hold to a traditional christian faith are mocked.
Supernatural definitely is western-centric, but the basic premise is "what if all of these fake mythologies were real" and that 100% includes christianity. The show doesn't really seem to have any particular regard for any of the belief systems that it mines for content. It's pretty disrespectful in general.
Its offensiveness towards Christianity is itself based on a sort of religious worldview that is rooted in a specific kind of Protestant Christianity (e.g. mythic literalism, inerrancy of...
Its offensiveness towards Christianity is itself based on a sort of religious worldview that is rooted in a specific kind of Protestant Christianity (e.g. mythic literalism, inerrancy of scripture). So they’re basically affirming a specific religion’s idea about what “religion” is and applying it as a definitive conception of religion. Many people’s practices of Christianity themselves don’t follow those assumptions, including Catholic mysticism. and most other religions absolutely don’t.
You’re assuming contradictions are indicative of falsity but a lot of zen koans are constructed to be intentionally contradictory or nonsensical specifically to snap your brain out of the habitual...
You’re assuming contradictions are indicative of falsity but a lot of zen koans are constructed to be intentionally contradictory or nonsensical specifically to snap your brain out of the habitual application of conventional logic. Who’s to say that mythological or scriptural references that seem contradictory aren’t doing the same? Or in the case of scriptures that were compiled over a stretch of time, the “contradictions” are usually from different expectations put down at different points in time or for different groups of people. So the proper exegesis is usually to understand the intention underneath the statement to arrive at the broader truth rather than the statement itself.
I think you might be taking my point a little more strongly than I intended it, although I suspect the fault is in my communication of it. I did grow up in an evengelical branch of Christianity,...
I think you might be taking my point a little more strongly than I intended it, although I suspect the fault is in my communication of it. I did grow up in an evengelical branch of Christianity, but I'm not currently part of a church that affirms any of those particular doctrines. I also don't think the show was particularly offensive to Christians, and I didn't intend to state that if it came across that way. I just didn't think it was particularly deferential toward Christianity, but I can certainly see how I might have missed that when I originally watched the show.
Supernatural's mythos is definitely very influenced by US Christianity, but I think it's a very bad reflection of the variety of Protestant Christianity that believes in strict Biblical literalism...
that is rooted in a specific kind of Protestant Christianity (e.g. mythic literalism, inerrancy of scripture)
Supernatural's mythos is definitely very influenced by US Christianity, but I think it's a very bad reflection of the variety of Protestant Christianity that believes in strict Biblical literalism and the inerrancy of Scripture. Supernatural doesn't even attempt to hew closely to the beliefs of those Christians, and the vast majority of its mythos is based on urban legends, occultism, or made up from whole cloth. It has more in common with LaVeyan Satanism in this respect than it does fundamentalist Christianity.
Supernatural is heavily influenced by cultural Christianity as the US hegemony, as are the occult traditions and many of the urban legends draws heavily from. But the Christianity it draws inspiration from is a mishmash from different sources and more resembles what a baptized Catholic who only attends church for Christmas and Easter would portray Christianity as, at least in the seasons I watched (I petered out around season 9 or 10). It also explicitly rejects certain elements of Biblical literalism throughout -- human evolution is canon in Supernatural, for instance.
OP's criticisms of its treatment of other world religions definitely holds water (and I've seen discussion of this particular episode on Tumblr with similar criticisms), but it's just inaccurate to frame Supernatural as based on a specific real-life religious Christianity that it strays SO far from.
It is unfortunate we don't have working spoiler tags. You could edit your comment to use expandable sections: https://docs.tildes.net/instructions/text-formatting#expandable-sections
I apologize, I'm really not trying to disagree with your central point or excuse the show's treatment of religions other than christianity. The scene you mentioned is atrocious and really...
I apologize, I'm really not trying to disagree with your central point or excuse the show's treatment of religions other than christianity. The scene you mentioned is atrocious and really shouldn't have made it into any show.
I just wanted to offer a perspective that the show doesn't feel particularly respectful from a Christian point of view either. I can see how I could be blind to what deference the show does give to american christians, though.
I apologize if I came across as trying to minimize your problems with the show, it wasn't my intent. I watched a good bit of the show and enjoyed the chemistry of the main cast enough to suffer through some pretty bad patches as far as the writing was concerned, but I definitely agree that there were a number of parts of the show that were pretty indefensible and I certainly don't think it was perfect.
To be fair, the Judaic god is the most supreme one based on the number of believers, if you add up Christianity and Islam, today. Often in these kind of series, the number of believers is...
To be fair, the Judaic god is the most supreme one based on the number of believers, if you add up Christianity and Islam, today. Often in these kind of series, the number of believers is proportional to strength.
As an example outside of Western media, in the Japanese series Shin Megami Tensei, the biggest, baddest, strongest god is usually YHWH, although more of a gnostic twist on it typically. That means above the traditional gods of Shinto belief, or the deified Buddhas, and you can't call it cultural bias this time - with a mere 1.5% of the nation Christian, it's likely no one who worked on the series is Christian.
In fact, the gods outside of YHWH are usually put under the umbrella of "demon", whereas YHWH always has a special place as the leader of order.
That being said, you usually end up killing YHWH, so it can hardly be called Christian approved.
Collapsing Christianity, Judaism and Islam is commonly done but really not very accurate from a theological standpoint. The deity they each follow is quite different with different expectations of...
Collapsing Christianity, Judaism and Islam is commonly done but really not very accurate from a theological standpoint. The deity they each follow is quite different with different expectations of his followers.
You're not wrong, but neither of these series are very theologically accurate with their very premise (I'm not sure it's very theologically accurate for a teenager to be able to kill Yahweh in...
You're not wrong, but neither of these series are very theologically accurate with their very premise (I'm not sure it's very theologically accurate for a teenager to be able to kill Yahweh in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam).
My point was more that it's a common trope for some variant of the Judaic God to be primal in these "world religion battle royals" kind of shows, and it's not necessarily one born of a Western bias towards Christianity.
I was mostly referring to your "most supreme by number of believers" comment. I don't think the fact that (an) anime uses similar tropes invalidates OPs point though, as the primacy of a Christian...
I was mostly referring to your "most supreme by number of believers" comment.
I don't think the fact that (an) anime uses similar tropes invalidates OPs point though, as the primacy of a Christian worldview is only part of the point. I am aware enough to know that western perceptions of anime tropes are not always accurate, but also not into anime enough to speak to why they might have used that particular one. Either way I think OP's point is fairly accurate in its totality.
“Alright you Primitive Screwheads, listen up! You see this? This... is my boomstick! The twelve-gauge double-barreled Remington. S-Mart's top of the line. You can find this in the sporting goods department. That's right, this sweet baby was made in Grand Rapids, Michigan. Retails for about a hundred and nine, ninety five. It's got a walnut stock, cobalt blue steel, and a hair trigger. That's right. Shopsmart. Shop S-Mart. You got that?”
Yeah that’s kinda what jumped out at me. I never finished supernatural but is not exactly well thought out or researched writing. I don’t really think they were trying you push some narrative or...
Yeah that’s kinda what jumped out at me. I never finished supernatural but is not exactly well thought out or researched writing.
I don’t really think they were trying you push some narrative or norm. Just making something that would be easy to write and have mass appeal.
It’s literally what if the x files was a road trip turned fan appeasing low effort slop?
I’m well aware of this style of analysis and the concept. I just don’t really agree that anyone came away from something like supernatural thinking that all pagans are trash or anything like that....
I’m well aware of this style of analysis and the concept. I just don’t really agree that anyone came away from something like supernatural thinking that all pagans are trash or anything like that.
I’ll admit I find the whole style of analysis questionable/often reaching, but especially here I don’t think many people got their world views from supernatural, especially when you’re talking a movie reference quote as evidence of your argument.
Sure plenty of people absolutely believe crap like that and some % of them enjoyed supernatural, but western/Christian supremacist vibes wouldn’t even hit my list of things to say about the show.
Fwiw all of those deities/spirits/loa are worshiped/invoked/honored today, even if by smaller numbers of people. Not diminishing the fact that Hinduism is clearly the largest of that group by any...
Fwiw all of those deities/spirits/loa are worshiped/invoked/honored today, even if by smaller numbers of people. Not diminishing the fact that Hinduism is clearly the largest of that group by any means.
I can absolutely understand where you're coming from and agree to some degree, but the show absolutely makes of mockery of genuine christian beliefs, too. The character that I think you're saying is the stand-in for the christian god is a whiny douche and
later season spoilers
the brothers literally kill himSupernatural definitely is western-centric, but the basic premise is "what if all of these fake mythologies were real" and that 100% includes christianity. The show doesn't really seem to have any particular regard for any of the belief systems that it mines for content. It's pretty disrespectful in general.
Its offensiveness towards Christianity is itself based on a sort of religious worldview that is rooted in a specific kind of Protestant Christianity (e.g. mythic literalism, inerrancy of scripture). So they’re basically affirming a specific religion’s idea about what “religion” is and applying it as a definitive conception of religion. Many people’s practices of Christianity themselves don’t follow those assumptions, including Catholic mysticism. and most other religions absolutely don’t.
You’re assuming contradictions are indicative of falsity but a lot of zen koans are constructed to be intentionally contradictory or nonsensical specifically to snap your brain out of the habitual application of conventional logic. Who’s to say that mythological or scriptural references that seem contradictory aren’t doing the same? Or in the case of scriptures that were compiled over a stretch of time, the “contradictions” are usually from different expectations put down at different points in time or for different groups of people. So the proper exegesis is usually to understand the intention underneath the statement to arrive at the broader truth rather than the statement itself.
I think you might be taking my point a little more strongly than I intended it, although I suspect the fault is in my communication of it. I did grow up in an evengelical branch of Christianity, but I'm not currently part of a church that affirms any of those particular doctrines. I also don't think the show was particularly offensive to Christians, and I didn't intend to state that if it came across that way. I just didn't think it was particularly deferential toward Christianity, but I can certainly see how I might have missed that when I originally watched the show.
Supernatural's mythos is definitely very influenced by US Christianity, but I think it's a very bad reflection of the variety of Protestant Christianity that believes in strict Biblical literalism and the inerrancy of Scripture. Supernatural doesn't even attempt to hew closely to the beliefs of those Christians, and the vast majority of its mythos is based on urban legends, occultism, or made up from whole cloth. It has more in common with LaVeyan Satanism in this respect than it does fundamentalist Christianity.
Supernatural is heavily influenced by cultural Christianity as the US hegemony, as are the occult traditions and many of the urban legends draws heavily from. But the Christianity it draws inspiration from is a mishmash from different sources and more resembles what a baptized Catholic who only attends church for Christmas and Easter would portray Christianity as, at least in the seasons I watched (I petered out around season 9 or 10). It also explicitly rejects certain elements of Biblical literalism throughout -- human evolution is canon in Supernatural, for instance.
OP's criticisms of its treatment of other world religions definitely holds water (and I've seen discussion of this particular episode on Tumblr with similar criticisms), but it's just inaccurate to frame Supernatural as based on a specific real-life religious Christianity that it strays SO far from.
Thank you for bringing this up.
It is unfortunate we don't have working spoiler tags. You could edit your comment to use expandable sections: https://docs.tildes.net/instructions/text-formatting#expandable-sections
Shoot, I've been using Discord a lot and forgot that spoiler formatting doesn't work here. Sorry about that...
All good! It's easy to forget, and I don't personally mind spoilers since my ex was a superwholock lol.
I apologize, I'm really not trying to disagree with your central point or excuse the show's treatment of religions other than christianity. The scene you mentioned is atrocious and really shouldn't have made it into any show.
I just wanted to offer a perspective that the show doesn't feel particularly respectful from a Christian point of view either. I can see how I could be blind to what deference the show does give to american christians, though.
I apologize if I came across as trying to minimize your problems with the show, it wasn't my intent. I watched a good bit of the show and enjoyed the chemistry of the main cast enough to suffer through some pretty bad patches as far as the writing was concerned, but I definitely agree that there were a number of parts of the show that were pretty indefensible and I certainly don't think it was perfect.
To be fair, the Judaic god is the most supreme one based on the number of believers, if you add up Christianity and Islam, today. Often in these kind of series, the number of believers is proportional to strength.
As an example outside of Western media, in the Japanese series Shin Megami Tensei, the biggest, baddest, strongest god is usually YHWH, although more of a gnostic twist on it typically. That means above the traditional gods of Shinto belief, or the deified Buddhas, and you can't call it cultural bias this time - with a mere 1.5% of the nation Christian, it's likely no one who worked on the series is Christian.
In fact, the gods outside of YHWH are usually put under the umbrella of "demon", whereas YHWH always has a special place as the leader of order.
That being said, you usually end up killing YHWH, so it can hardly be called Christian approved.
Collapsing Christianity, Judaism and Islam is commonly done but really not very accurate from a theological standpoint. The deity they each follow is quite different with different expectations of his followers.
You're not wrong, but neither of these series are very theologically accurate with their very premise (I'm not sure it's very theologically accurate for a teenager to be able to kill Yahweh in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam).
My point was more that it's a common trope for some variant of the Judaic God to be primal in these "world religion battle royals" kind of shows, and it's not necessarily one born of a Western bias towards Christianity.
I was mostly referring to your "most supreme by number of believers" comment.
I don't think the fact that (an) anime uses similar tropes invalidates OPs point though, as the primacy of a Christian worldview is only part of the point. I am aware enough to know that western perceptions of anime tropes are not always accurate, but also not into anime enough to speak to why they might have used that particular one. Either way I think OP's point is fairly accurate in its totality.
“Demon” comes from daimon so that’s not entirely off.
FYI, this is just an Army of Darkness reference.
Yeah that’s kinda what jumped out at me. I never finished supernatural but is not exactly well thought out or researched writing.
I don’t really think they were trying you push some narrative or norm. Just making something that would be easy to write and have mass appeal.
It’s literally what if the x files was a road trip turned fan appeasing low effort slop?
I’m well aware of this style of analysis and the concept. I just don’t really agree that anyone came away from something like supernatural thinking that all pagans are trash or anything like that.
I’ll admit I find the whole style of analysis questionable/often reaching, but especially here I don’t think many people got their world views from supernatural, especially when you’re talking a movie reference quote as evidence of your argument.
Sure plenty of people absolutely believe crap like that and some % of them enjoyed supernatural, but western/Christian supremacist vibes wouldn’t even hit my list of things to say about the show.
Fwiw all of those deities/spirits/loa are worshiped/invoked/honored today, even if by smaller numbers of people. Not diminishing the fact that Hinduism is clearly the largest of that group by any means.