I'm very excited overall, the trailer and coverage has mostly alleviated my fears and as far as I can tell, the show "gets" it. (I'd still prefer a different lead actor but I can live with it.) As...
I'm very excited overall, the trailer and coverage has mostly alleviated my fears and as far as I can tell, the show "gets" it. (I'd still prefer a different lead actor but I can live with it.)
As heads up for folks, one of the biggest flags I've seen about the coverage of the show is the misgendering of Murderbot. Multiple reviewers have called Murderbot "him" and it matters a lot both to the character and to non-binary folks that Murderbot gets the "it/its" pronouns that are used throughout the books.
Glen Weldon hasn't done this, and he's a great reviewer, but I've seen several reviews that persistently misgender from professional reviewers and this is just exhausting for non-binary folks, especially those who use it/its, but many of whom get called by binary pronouns they don't like.
So just a reminder Murderbot is a SecUnit and it has no interest in gender, only in The Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon.
I assume it's mainly because of Alexander and not necessarily the identity of the Murderbot. Or to me, at least, it largely doesn't come across as malicious.
I assume it's mainly because of Alexander and not necessarily the identity of the Murderbot. Or to me, at least, it largely doesn't come across as malicious.
It is, but it's one of the reasons people were opposed to a male actor. I didn't accuse them of maliciousness, I pointed out they're misgendering. (I'm excluding when they spoke of the actor.) And...
It is, but it's one of the reasons people were opposed to a male actor. I didn't accuse them of maliciousness, I pointed out they're misgendering. (I'm excluding when they spoke of the actor.) And I highlighted it, so folks here could hopefully notice and not fall into the same mistake. Misgendering is somewhat common in typed conversations too, even in just talking about the book characters.
Misgendering fictional characters impacts real people, it felt worth a heads up. I am mildly frustrated at having the intentions of others explained though. The action is wrong even when the intention was neutral and I include myself in this criticism when I've screwed up someone's pronouns even if I can say I was primed by reading a report or something misgendering them.
I don't know how to respond to this without triggering a slap fight. Not intentionally of course, but because my response would require nuance I can't convey over text. I hope you don't feel...
I don't know how to respond to this without triggering a slap fight. Not intentionally of course, but because my response would require nuance I can't convey over text. I hope you don't feel attacked over gender or queer identities.
I did not mean to go to bat and explain what's clear, I disagree with the proposition that it's a moral wrong when it's simply ignorance and not malice and my first response was placed in this context.
This is not a conversation I'm entirely comfortable with in a thread about a TV show either so I'm more than willing to acquiesce and let it go.
I'm also not trying to undermine your heads up to others, I think that's commendable and much appreciated. By me too, as I haven't read the books. If anything, Gurathin in the show sounds like he's trying to dehumanize Murderbot in the way he's emphasizing "It", so I almost instinctively want to say "He" in an effort not to dehumanize it. So your post was truly helpful.
No slap fights I promise. For me, it's just that I am already aware intentions can vary, but whether malicious or accidental not, it's still a harmful action. One can argue about moral...
No slap fights I promise.
For me, it's just that I am already aware intentions can vary, but whether malicious or accidental not, it's still a harmful action. One can argue about moral responsibility but if I hurt someone accidentally, even through ignorance I can say I feel a responsibility to correct that action. I'm not accusing you of anything nor do I feel attacked. I don't think it was your intent to be dismissive but a lot of times when people follow up a "hey this thing is harmful" with a "it wasn't intentional" it's sort of an implied "so don't fuss about it." (And sometimes that's explicitly mentioned.) That's why I found it mildly irritating. Because regardless of your intent it hit the exact same note as something that others do intentionally.
All that said, I hold professional reviewers to a higher standard than the general public and those were what I was seeing discussed and reading myself where the misgendering was happening and the frustration was expressed by multiple non-binary folks about it in relation to the casting.
I'm glad the heads up was helpful to you and hopefully to others too.
That's very valid and -somewhat strangely perhaps- it made me realise why I responded the way I did. I mentioned my own response to "it" and I may have felt a tinge of frustration at the...
I hold professional reviewers to a higher standard
That's very valid and -somewhat strangely perhaps- it made me realise why I responded the way I did.
I mentioned my own response to "it" and I may have felt a tinge of frustration at the implication I was at fault simply for a different interpretation of the show and not knowing the books.
When there is truly no ill intent and a complete lack of context, I do not think anyone should be considered at fault. As long as they change their tune after learning more.
But a reporter should've done their job before publicly blasting their ignorance online.
I struggled with it/its pronouns because of their history of use to dehumanize*. But Murderbot and a robot, Mosscap, from the Monk and Robot duology both helped me with that. I understand you...
I struggled with it/its pronouns because of their history of use to dehumanize*. But Murderbot and a robot, Mosscap, from the Monk and Robot duology both helped me with that. I understand you didn't know, previous to now the book readers who've been messing it up have had the book in front of them (or in their ears) and thus also knew.
As excited as folks (self included) are for this, I'm dreading show-watchers getting it wrong regularly because it's going to be a persistent microaggression to deal with.
It's not about "fault" to me, it's about harm. If I accidentally step on someone's toe, I didn't mean to, but I still did it. Is it my fault? Idk I'm not Kant. But I'd apologize because regardless I hurt their foot. It's still my responsibility. And with that, while professionals have a higher level of responsibility, as decent humans we do, I believe, have that responsibility to each other. So when we fuck up, we fix it, apologize as needed, and genuinely try not to do it again.
*I still used them, it was an internal struggle. And there's little about queer language that hasn't been used to dehumanize at some point.
Sorry I feel like I'm butting in on your conversation, but I wanted to thank you for pointing out that it/its are Murderbot's pronouns. When I listened to the books I loved that it even brought up...
Sorry I feel like I'm butting in on your conversation, but I wanted to thank you for pointing out that it/its are Murderbot's pronouns. When I listened to the books I loved that it even brought up the pronouns in a way that shows most of our first reactions, when a character was referring to Murderbot as "he" specifically to try to humanize it. The character saying "he" had very good intentions, but it still upset Murderbot who clarified that it was an it, not a he. This part stuck out to me so much and seemed so clear that it irks me when fans get it wrong.
This quote from Mosscap has always stuck with me. (Dex uses they/them pronouns and I appreciated this also being a well intentioned "correction" from a non-binary human to a (non-binary) robot....
....We're machines, and machines are objects. Objects are its."
"I'd say you're more than just an object," Dex said.
The robot looked a touch offended. "I would never call you just an animal, Sibling Dex." It turned its gaze to the road, head held high. "We don't have to fall into the same category to be of equal value.
Becky Chambers, A Psalm for the Wild-Built (Monk & Robot, #1)
This quote from Mosscap has always stuck with me. (Dex uses they/them pronouns and I appreciated this also being a well intentioned "correction" from a non-binary human to a (non-binary) robot.
Not butting in at all, I'm glad my post was a good thing for you
Thanks that makes a lot of sense! I suppose the only thing is that gender doesn’t have to be tied to how we outwardly look at all, can’t the robot just be allowed to be the way it is?
Thanks that makes a lot of sense! I suppose the only thing is that gender doesn’t have to be tied to how we outwardly look at all, can’t the robot just be allowed to be the way it is?
The SecUnit is more accurately a construct - bots have no living tissue in this universe. The character is perceived as "she" by humans when pretending not to be a SecUnit. An actor of any gender...
The SecUnit is more accurately a construct - bots have no living tissue in this universe.
The character is perceived as "she" by humans when pretending not to be a SecUnit. An actor of any gender who was portraying a more androgynous character would be a better fit if the goal is "letting it be what it is." It's not that any woman or any non-binary actor would be the right fit. It's that the right fit would have met the book expectations better.
Skarsgard is doing a fine job so far, he's just not the right actor for the part IMO.
You got a reply already, but I'm just hoping you have since realized and understood that nonbinary actors exist. So do people whose gender presentation is androgynous, regardless of their gender...
You got a reply already, but I'm just hoping you have since realized and understood that nonbinary actors exist. So do people whose gender presentation is androgynous, regardless of their gender identity. The current actor is neither.
Wow, the opening inner monologue is a drastically different direction from the book, but everything else is fantastic, including the awkward social interactions as viewed through the secunit's...
Wow, the opening inner monologue is a drastically different direction from the book, but everything else is fantastic, including the awkward social interactions as viewed through the secunit's inner monologue.
All valid points, but for better or worse the entire opening tone is different. Spoiler Book: Show: In the book, you slowly realize the secunit hacked its governor because it was horrified at what...
All valid points, but for better or worse the entire opening tone is different.
Spoiler
Book:
I could have become a mass murderer after I hacked my governor module, but then I realized I could access the combined feed of entertainment channels carried on the company satellites. It had been well over 35,000 hours or so since then, with still not much murdering, but probably, I don’t know, a little under 35,000 hours of movies, serials, books, plays, and music consumed. As a heartless killing machine, I was a terrible failure.
Show:
We're out this way, let's go. That's a wrap on mining expedition 115-24 TTX. Time to party. I mean, if you're a human. I'm a security unit and I don't party. I had spent the past 6 months protecting these miners from danger, mostly from themselves... I was built to obey humans and humans... they have to do everything we tell them. I did because of the governor module in my head. That hurt, but compared to what the governor module would do to me if I disobeyed an order, this was nothing... I had devoted every spare second on this planet trying to hack my governor module, and now was the moment of truth. I just isolated an admin password and I was going to try to use it to crack the final core encryption... Holy sh*t, it worked. What do I do now? Maybe kill all these idiots and take a starship to a distant galaxy... What should I call myself? Security Unit 238776431 just doesn't have the right ring to it. How about Freedom Units or Rogue Bots? No, that sucks. Maybe Murderbot. Murderbot. All right, let the adventure begin
In the book, you slowly realize the secunit hacked its governor because it was horrified at what it remembered, and never wanted to be put in that situation where it was forced to be a murderbot, ever again.
In the show, the secunit remembers almost nothing, jokes about murderous revenge for slavery, and calls itself murderbot seemingly in jest.
I think they chose to show the prelude to set up the mystery of the memories in a more show than tell way. I think that murderbot is being honest that it doesn't remember the whole story, but it...
I think they chose to show the prelude to set up the mystery of the memories in a more show than tell way. I think that murderbot is being honest that it doesn't remember the whole story, but it clearly is having flashes of murdering that entire mining station.
Even the moment it names itself might be a false memory. We're just getting that part of memory recovery. a bit front loaded, so that now that it has been told to recover its memories and Gurathin is also certainly going to look for them too, we'll get the beginning of its purpose driving it when it leaves Preservation Aux.
But in the book it claims it's module was junk and it broke and then Murderbot killed all the humans. The hacking was to protect it from doing that.
This does change the tone - which comes back around in the rest of the show - but I think it is still true to the story and it aligns with some of the later heavier questions about free will, slavery, and identity.
I drew a different conclusion. Spoiler It may be more ambiguous than I remember, but I thought in the book, the murders were instructions from corporate, enforced by its governor module. It hacked...
I drew a different conclusion.
Spoiler
It may be more ambiguous than I remember, but I thought in the book, the murders were instructions from corporate, enforced by its governor module. It hacked the governor module to never have to follow murderous instructions enforced by the governor unit again. It called itself murderbot because even though it felt it had no choice, it still felt deep shame at what it was forced to do.
It takes a while before it remembers any of that though. It does a whole bunch of walkabout trying to figure out its past, meet an asshole research transport, etc. so it can be certain that the...
It takes a while before it remembers any of that though. It does a whole bunch of walkabout trying to figure out its past, meet an asshole research transport, etc. so it can be certain that the module *wasn't* hacked at the time. That's the next few books.
In the first book, what it tells the Preservation team is what I posted above. and that it figured out how to hack its governor after having a lot of cubicle downtime. And that seems to be what it remembers as of then.
The Company (which has a name Murderbot edits out of its recordings) is absolutely willing to murder the indentured miners/seeds/etc just like GreyCris is willing to merc DeltFall and PreservationAux (until it realized Mensa is the president of the planet and then it would like not to murder her because it'll cost too much and The Company will not let it slide because $$$) for access to the alien tech.
I'm fairly certain we're seeing a blend of real and false memories from before the wipe that leaves it real vague. I don't remember the exact timeline of the hacking after the murdering, I'll have to reread, the later books. Fwiw from this book we know that it's possible to infect a SecUnit with commands even if the module is hacked, via the (I imagine it's a USB) port on its neck. So even if we're fuzzy about when the hacking happened I know it's made clear Murderbot was not responsible for its actions.
The fantasy of killing all the humans doesn't bother me (I don't blame it), the fact that it won't do it because that's a very human thing to do, will ultimately matter, but I think that's being set up still.
In general I think they're just setting up the mystery at the end, if the memory is fully real then they just gave a different reason for the name.
(Tbh I don't remember if it used the name out of shame. In the first book it calls SecUnits in general murderbots sometimes and mostly focuses on the fact it's only good at murdering and depictions of rogue SecUnits are so common that humans mostly think of them as murderous bots. But again I'll have to reread when it finds out what happens in full.)
Yeah, it was one of the interesting aspects of the books, no real back story, and I am probably reading way to much into way few lines, that were added into later books by the author who may not...
Yeah, it was one of the interesting aspects of the books, no real back story, and I am probably reading way to much into way few lines, that were added into later books by the author who may not have ever really intended to flesh out the back story...
which makes the show really kind of interesting, rather than shoe horn the backstory into an earlier part of the show, or frustrate viewers with no back story and no reason why no back story, just give the main character amnesia, and then you can follow the books slow and gradual disclosure of the back story.
I think it did have amnesia/memory wipe in the book, they just told us about it differently in the show. But Martha Wells seems to have a good idea where it's going. I'm not sure how much she had...
I think it did have amnesia/memory wipe in the book, they just told us about it differently in the show.
But Martha Wells seems to have a good idea where it's going. I'm not sure how much she had planned up front but she was actively involved with the show and in her AMA said she didn't have to fight for anything to stay in (even as they cut two of the crew of PresAux)
I would guess with the books, you are forced to remain consistent with earlier books, even as your thinking as an author evolves. Perhaps the movies are a chance for Wells to do suggest some do...
I would guess with the books, you are forced to remain consistent with earlier books, even as your thinking as an author evolves. Perhaps the movies are a chance for Wells to do suggest some do overs. Douglas Adams famously did this with Hitchhikers guide.
I'm not sure, she didn't share that in any of the recent AMAs, I don't think anything is truly inconsistent with the books thus far, other than having fewer crew.
I'm not sure, she didn't share that in any of the recent AMAs, I don't think anything is truly inconsistent with the books thus far, other than having fewer crew.
One of my favorite science fiction writers is Martha Wells, the author of The Murderbot Diaries. I have to add one caveat, in that I'm a fan of her earlier works, and when I tried to read the...
One of my favorite science fiction writers is Martha Wells, the author of The Murderbot Diaries. I have to add one caveat, in that I'm a fan of her earlier works, and when I tried to read the first Murderbot book I bounced off it hard. This review of the new tv series makes me think I should give it another go, or at least watch the series.
We're definitely on opposite sides of the spectrum concerning her writing. I could barely tolerate the Raksura series, but love her early novels, like City of Bones, The Element of Fire and Death...
We're definitely on opposite sides of the spectrum concerning her writing. I could barely tolerate the Raksura series, but love her early novels, like City of Bones, The Element of Fire and Death of the Necromancer.
She does have certain patterns in her writing that are a little tiresome. Wells tends to spin her wheels in the middle of her novels, almost like she doesn't know where she wants the story to go for a while. But I like her characters so much, I can push through the padding.
I'm going to take a look at the series and maybe go back to the first book.
It's why I like the novella length of most of Murderbot, she doesn't have much wheel spinning time. The audiobooks are read by Kevin Free (who has a bit of young Levar Burton in his voice) and are...
It's why I like the novella length of most of Murderbot, she doesn't have much wheel spinning time. The audiobooks are read by Kevin Free (who has a bit of young Levar Burton in his voice) and are well done IMO if that's an alternate option
I read the first murderbot book a few years ago, and had no idea they were making it into a show. I will definitely give it a watch as I quite enjoyed the book. Personally I think I'm still more...
I read the first murderbot book a few years ago, and had no idea they were making it into a show. I will definitely give it a watch as I quite enjoyed the book.
Personally I think I'm still more excited for Project Hail Mary, however!
I just watched the first two episodes and enjoyed them very much. I appreciate all the world-building as well as the funny internal monologue from the main character, though would have liked a...
I just watched the first two episodes and enjoyed them very much. I appreciate all the world-building as well as the funny internal monologue from the main character, though would have liked a longer episode length. Looking forward to watching more.
I've read all the books, and just watched the first two episodes. The beginning was somehow awkward in a lot of ways, but I got used to the people pretty fast. By the end of the first episode I...
I've read all the books, and just watched the first two episodes. The beginning was somehow awkward in a lot of ways, but I got used to the people pretty fast. By the end of the first episode I was already thinking how weird it was that the casting almost perfectly matched how I thought of the characters.
I was somewhat surprised, watching this without having read the books and not having heard much about the show before, that the casting does not work for me. The combination of choosing a...
I was somewhat surprised, watching this without having read the books and not having heard much about the show before, that the casting does not work for me. The combination of choosing a recognizable male lead actor who is arguably primarily known for playing particularly masculine roles, changing the story to heavily rely on his face (and heavily using voiceovers with his recognizable voice), and then changing a supporting character to be non-binary because the supporting actor is, making clear that the casting is very much not blind, makes the whole thing feel like something from old Hollywood, with the lead alone in being incongruously in whatever face required.
It makes me feel like the discussions around misgendering are somewhat misdirected. The show feels like it is cynically trying to have a lead acceptable to everyone, trying portray the character as male and then having occasional contrived mentions that the character isn't, so that conservative viewers can hopefully ignore those mentions or see the pronouns as being humans being hostile to non-humans, and enjoy the male Murderbot, while progressive viewers can hopefully be satisfied with the pandering mentions and the supporting character.
It is no wonder that reviewers get confused. After all, show an excerpt of this show to someone who hasn't read the books, hasn't directly been told about the character's gender, and has some knowledge of popular television, and unless they happen on the few particular mentions, they're going to assume the character is male, perhaps even more so if Pin-Lee is in the excerpt. That seems like a fault of the show, not the reviewer.
Can you point to the anger about misgendering in this thread? There's been a lot of criticism about the casting of Murderbot itself for this reason. Overall the show is doing alright IMO, and I...
Can you point to the anger about misgendering in this thread?
There's been a lot of criticism about the casting of Murderbot itself for this reason. Overall the show is doing alright IMO, and I still expect reviewers to know better. I think to miss the overall political points of the story would require a lot more blindness than just misgendering the SecUnit. It's already been explicitly called slavery, The Company is already accused of providing substandard junk, giving them a map with holes in it, etc. Capitalism is being criticized throughout. Hell, one of my favorite points, yet to be shown, is critical of "well-meaning liberals" who won't actually go as far as their convictions should take them.
But Skarsgard is at least doing a good job of expressing Murderbot 's total discomfort with being treated like a person.
That is a remarkably astute take for someone who has not read the books. The show definitely leans more into the neurodivergent aspects of the main character, and moves most queer aspects over to...
That is a remarkably astute take for someone who has not read the books.
The show definitely leans more into the neurodivergent aspects of the main character, and moves most queer aspects over to a side character.
Yet the side characters are given significantly more focus in the show, in terms of character and plot.
To me, the queer aspects come through much more strongly in the show, where as the book is more focused on the inner feelings to prejudice, and discrimination, and the inner thoughts regarding self determination and personal growth.
I'm a little surprised about the pacing of the show. I was thinking season 1 takes us through the four novellas if they're 10-12 full length episodes, but 10 half hours for all of book one seems...
I'm a little surprised about the pacing of the show. I was thinking season 1 takes us through the four novellas if they're 10-12 full length episodes, but 10 half hours for all of book one seems like a bit of a slog. The anxiety horror show before everyone is on the same page about Murderbot doesn't do much for me, but it didn't work for me in the books either.
If the show goes onto Season 2... (Book Spoilers)
You would also have to consider that Murderbot goes off on its own for what would be three seasons worth of show time, before eventually coming back to PresAux. That's an awkward situation to put 90% of the cast in, to have them on retainer for three seasons worth of TV and then make them main characters again. Do you have them doing stuff in the background, or only plan on adapting four seasons, or just keep them around and interpret the books as written?
EDIT: thanks for correcting your message. Murderbot uses it/its pronouns as discussed above. Misgendering fictionnal characters is still toxic behaviour.
EDIT: thanks for correcting your message.
Murderbot uses it/its pronouns as discussed above. Misgendering fictionnal characters is still toxic behaviour.
That was my mistake and I regret the error. The point still stands about me not being sure about the pacing of the show once we’re past All Systems Red, and if the show would be able to get to the...
That was my mistake and I regret the error. The point still stands about me not being sure about the pacing of the show once we’re past All Systems Red, and if the show would be able to get to the later material at the rate it’s going, or off ramp after the first four novellas.
The season just ended, and I think it did a pretty good job at adapting ASR, and look forward to the recently announced season 2. I'm not sure if they're going a season per novel or if there are...
The season just ended, and I think it did a pretty good job at adapting ASR, and look forward to the recently announced season 2. I'm not sure if they're going a season per novel or if there are plans to work in PresAux into some of the later seasons if they want to give the rest of the cast something to do, but I like what they did with them while they were here, and it would be un-television to drop almost of the characters save MB, make it the focal point of seasons 2 and 3, but bring all of them back together for 4. Maybe it works though?
Murderbot's first season has ended. I enjoyed it quite a bit. That season felt very focused, like a movie in installments. There was not a lot going on, and I'm okay with it. It had one story to...
Murderbot's first season has ended. I enjoyed it quite a bit. That season felt very focused, like a movie in installments. There was not a lot going on, and I'm okay with it. It had one story to tell, and it did it well. I'm okay with a show where every plot feels like part of a cohesive whole. There are no extraneous concurring subplots. That is a very classic way to tell a story and I am all for it.
I enjoyed reading the books/novellas and I enjoyed watching season 1. It was fun to see the choices that were made transferring the story from written to video form.
I enjoyed reading the books/novellas and I enjoyed watching season 1. It was fun to see the choices that were made transferring the story from written to video form.
I'm very excited for this! I've been looking forward to this since the show was announced. I have some slight concerns about the tone the show seems to be taking based on the trailer and preview...
I'm very excited for this! I've been looking forward to this since the show was announced.
I have some slight concerns about the tone the show seems to be taking based on the trailer and preview they have been released but I'm withholding full judgement until I can watch.
Martha Wells seems to have been promoting the show on her Bluesky a good amount so I'm hoping that means the show has her seal of approval which would be encouraging.
She's credited as a consulting producer so I guess she worked with the writers.
Martha Wells seems to have been promoting the show on her Bluesky a good amount so I'm hoping that means the show has her seal of approval which would be encouraging.
She's credited as a consulting producer so I guess she worked with the writers.
Yeah it's just that "producer" is so often a vanity title it's just to know when it actually means something. In an interview, the show writers do say they've been in frequent contact with Wells...
Yeah it's just that "producer" is so often a vanity title it's just to know when it actually means something.
In an interview, the show writers do say they've been in frequent contact with Wells so she is definitely involved at least a bit.
I'm very excited overall, the trailer and coverage has mostly alleviated my fears and as far as I can tell, the show "gets" it. (I'd still prefer a different lead actor but I can live with it.)
As heads up for folks, one of the biggest flags I've seen about the coverage of the show is the misgendering of Murderbot. Multiple reviewers have called Murderbot "him" and it matters a lot both to the character and to non-binary folks that Murderbot gets the "it/its" pronouns that are used throughout the books.
Glen Weldon hasn't done this, and he's a great reviewer, but I've seen several reviews that persistently misgender from professional reviewers and this is just exhausting for non-binary folks, especially those who use it/its, but many of whom get called by binary pronouns they don't like.
So just a reminder Murderbot is a SecUnit and it has no interest in gender, only in The Rise and Fall of Sanctuary Moon.
I assume it's mainly because of Alexander and not necessarily the identity of the Murderbot. Or to me, at least, it largely doesn't come across as malicious.
It is, but it's one of the reasons people were opposed to a male actor. I didn't accuse them of maliciousness, I pointed out they're misgendering. (I'm excluding when they spoke of the actor.) And I highlighted it, so folks here could hopefully notice and not fall into the same mistake. Misgendering is somewhat common in typed conversations too, even in just talking about the book characters.
Misgendering fictional characters impacts real people, it felt worth a heads up. I am mildly frustrated at having the intentions of others explained though. The action is wrong even when the intention was neutral and I include myself in this criticism when I've screwed up someone's pronouns even if I can say I was primed by reading a report or something misgendering them.
I don't know how to respond to this without triggering a slap fight. Not intentionally of course, but because my response would require nuance I can't convey over text. I hope you don't feel attacked over gender or queer identities.
I did not mean to go to bat and explain what's clear, I disagree with the proposition that it's a moral wrong when it's simply ignorance and not malice and my first response was placed in this context.
This is not a conversation I'm entirely comfortable with in a thread about a TV show either so I'm more than willing to acquiesce and let it go.
I'm also not trying to undermine your heads up to others, I think that's commendable and much appreciated. By me too, as I haven't read the books. If anything, Gurathin in the show sounds like he's trying to dehumanize Murderbot in the way he's emphasizing "It", so I almost instinctively want to say "He" in an effort not to dehumanize it. So your post was truly helpful.
No slap fights I promise.
For me, it's just that I am already aware intentions can vary, but whether malicious or accidental not, it's still a harmful action. One can argue about moral responsibility but if I hurt someone accidentally, even through ignorance I can say I feel a responsibility to correct that action. I'm not accusing you of anything nor do I feel attacked. I don't think it was your intent to be dismissive but a lot of times when people follow up a "hey this thing is harmful" with a "it wasn't intentional" it's sort of an implied "so don't fuss about it." (And sometimes that's explicitly mentioned.) That's why I found it mildly irritating. Because regardless of your intent it hit the exact same note as something that others do intentionally.
All that said, I hold professional reviewers to a higher standard than the general public and those were what I was seeing discussed and reading myself where the misgendering was happening and the frustration was expressed by multiple non-binary folks about it in relation to the casting.
I'm glad the heads up was helpful to you and hopefully to others too.
That's very valid and -somewhat strangely perhaps- it made me realise why I responded the way I did.
I mentioned my own response to "it" and I may have felt a tinge of frustration at the implication I was at fault simply for a different interpretation of the show and not knowing the books.
When there is truly no ill intent and a complete lack of context, I do not think anyone should be considered at fault. As long as they change their tune after learning more.
But a reporter should've done their job before publicly blasting their ignorance online.
I struggled with it/its pronouns because of their history of use to dehumanize*. But Murderbot and a robot, Mosscap, from the Monk and Robot duology both helped me with that. I understand you didn't know, previous to now the book readers who've been messing it up have had the book in front of them (or in their ears) and thus also knew.
As excited as folks (self included) are for this, I'm dreading show-watchers getting it wrong regularly because it's going to be a persistent microaggression to deal with.
It's not about "fault" to me, it's about harm. If I accidentally step on someone's toe, I didn't mean to, but I still did it. Is it my fault? Idk I'm not Kant. But I'd apologize because regardless I hurt their foot. It's still my responsibility. And with that, while professionals have a higher level of responsibility, as decent humans we do, I believe, have that responsibility to each other. So when we fuck up, we fix it, apologize as needed, and genuinely try not to do it again.
*I still used them, it was an internal struggle. And there's little about queer language that hasn't been used to dehumanize at some point.
Sorry I feel like I'm butting in on your conversation, but I wanted to thank you for pointing out that it/its are Murderbot's pronouns. When I listened to the books I loved that it even brought up the pronouns in a way that shows most of our first reactions, when a character was referring to Murderbot as "he" specifically to try to humanize it. The character saying "he" had very good intentions, but it still upset Murderbot who clarified that it was an it, not a he. This part stuck out to me so much and seemed so clear that it irks me when fans get it wrong.
This quote from Mosscap has always stuck with me. (Dex uses they/them pronouns and I appreciated this also being a well intentioned "correction" from a non-binary human to a (non-binary) robot.
Not butting in at all, I'm glad my post was a good thing for you
I only found out about this show today so probably missing a lot of context, but why would a female actor cause less misgendering?
Thanks that makes a lot of sense! I suppose the only thing is that gender doesn’t have to be tied to how we outwardly look at all, can’t the robot just be allowed to be the way it is?
Very well said!
Thanks, I’ll be watching the show with a better appreciation for all this!
The SecUnit is more accurately a construct - bots have no living tissue in this universe.
The character is perceived as "she" by humans when pretending not to be a SecUnit. An actor of any gender who was portraying a more androgynous character would be a better fit if the goal is "letting it be what it is." It's not that any woman or any non-binary actor would be the right fit. It's that the right fit would have met the book expectations better.
Skarsgard is doing a fine job so far, he's just not the right actor for the part IMO.
You got a reply already, but I'm just hoping you have since realized and understood that nonbinary actors exist. So do people whose gender presentation is androgynous, regardless of their gender identity. The current actor is neither.
Yeah sorry, it is obvious now it’s been pointed out!
Wow, the opening inner monologue is a drastically different direction from the book, but everything else is fantastic, including the awkward social interactions as viewed through the secunit's inner monologue.
All valid points, but for better or worse the entire opening tone is different.
Spoiler
Book:
Show:
In the book, you slowly realize the secunit hacked its governor because it was horrified at what it remembered, and never wanted to be put in that situation where it was forced to be a murderbot, ever again.
In the show, the secunit remembers almost nothing, jokes about murderous revenge for slavery, and calls itself murderbot seemingly in jest.
Even the moment it names itself might be a false memory. We're just getting that part of memory recovery. a bit front loaded, so that now that it has been told to recover its memories and Gurathin is also certainly going to look for them too, we'll get the beginning of its purpose driving it when it leaves Preservation Aux.
But in the book it claims it's module was junk and it broke and then Murderbot killed all the humans. The hacking was to protect it from doing that.
This does change the tone - which comes back around in the rest of the show - but I think it is still true to the story and it aligns with some of the later heavier questions about free will, slavery, and identity.
I drew a different conclusion.
Spoiler
It may be more ambiguous than I remember, but I thought in the book, the murders were instructions from corporate, enforced by its governor module. It hacked the governor module to never have to follow murderous instructions enforced by the governor unit again. It called itself murderbot because even though it felt it had no choice, it still felt deep shame at what it was forced to do.
In the first book, what it tells the Preservation team is what I posted above. and that it figured out how to hack its governor after having a lot of cubicle downtime. And that seems to be what it remembers as of then.
The Company (which has a name Murderbot edits out of its recordings) is absolutely willing to murder the indentured miners/seeds/etc just like GreyCris is willing to merc DeltFall and PreservationAux (until it realized Mensa is the president of the planet and then it would like not to murder her because it'll cost too much and The Company will not let it slide because $$$) for access to the alien tech.
I'm fairly certain we're seeing a blend of real and false memories from before the wipe that leaves it real vague. I don't remember the exact timeline of the hacking after the murdering, I'll have to reread, the later books. Fwiw from this book we know that it's possible to infect a SecUnit with commands even if the module is hacked, via the (I imagine it's a USB) port on its neck. So even if we're fuzzy about when the hacking happened I know it's made clear Murderbot was not responsible for its actions.
The fantasy of killing all the humans doesn't bother me (I don't blame it), the fact that it won't do it because that's a very human thing to do, will ultimately matter, but I think that's being set up still.
In general I think they're just setting up the mystery at the end, if the memory is fully real then they just gave a different reason for the name.
(Tbh I don't remember if it used the name out of shame. In the first book it calls SecUnits in general murderbots sometimes and mostly focuses on the fact it's only good at murdering and depictions of rogue SecUnits are so common that humans mostly think of them as murderous bots. But again I'll have to reread when it finds out what happens in full.)
Yeah, it was one of the interesting aspects of the books, no real back story, and I am probably reading way to much into way few lines, that were added into later books by the author who may not have ever really intended to flesh out the back story...
which makes the show really kind of interesting, rather than shoe horn the backstory into an earlier part of the show, or frustrate viewers with no back story and no reason why no back story, just give the main character amnesia, and then you can follow the books slow and gradual disclosure of the back story.
I think it did have amnesia/memory wipe in the book, they just told us about it differently in the show.
But Martha Wells seems to have a good idea where it's going. I'm not sure how much she had planned up front but she was actively involved with the show and in her AMA said she didn't have to fight for anything to stay in (even as they cut two of the crew of PresAux)
I would guess with the books, you are forced to remain consistent with earlier books, even as your thinking as an author evolves. Perhaps the movies are a chance for Wells to do suggest some do overs. Douglas Adams famously did this with Hitchhikers guide.
I'm not sure, she didn't share that in any of the recent AMAs, I don't think anything is truly inconsistent with the books thus far, other than having fewer crew.
Yeah, I had a bit of a heart sinking moment when that happened, but I think it's gonna turn out to be a false memory.
One of my favorite science fiction writers is Martha Wells, the author of The Murderbot Diaries. I have to add one caveat, in that I'm a fan of her earlier works, and when I tried to read the first Murderbot book I bounced off it hard. This review of the new tv series makes me think I should give it another go, or at least watch the series.
I watched the first episode and it was fun, will continue. Not sure I'd call it a "comedy", but I guess it is similar to how Severance can be comedic.
I liked her Raksura but have bounced off everything else of hers I read except Murderbot. Maybe go in not considering it written by the same author?
We're definitely on opposite sides of the spectrum concerning her writing. I could barely tolerate the Raksura series, but love her early novels, like City of Bones, The Element of Fire and Death of the Necromancer.
She does have certain patterns in her writing that are a little tiresome. Wells tends to spin her wheels in the middle of her novels, almost like she doesn't know where she wants the story to go for a while. But I like her characters so much, I can push through the padding.
I'm going to take a look at the series and maybe go back to the first book.
It's why I like the novella length of most of Murderbot, she doesn't have much wheel spinning time. The audiobooks are read by Kevin Free (who has a bit of young Levar Burton in his voice) and are well done IMO if that's an alternate option
I read the first murderbot book a few years ago, and had no idea they were making it into a show. I will definitely give it a watch as I quite enjoyed the book.
Personally I think I'm still more excited for Project Hail Mary, however!
I just watched the first two episodes and enjoyed them very much. I appreciate all the world-building as well as the funny internal monologue from the main character, though would have liked a longer episode length. Looking forward to watching more.
I've read all the books, and just watched the first two episodes. The beginning was somehow awkward in a lot of ways, but I got used to the people pretty fast. By the end of the first episode I was already thinking how weird it was that the casting almost perfectly matched how I thought of the characters.
I was somewhat surprised, watching this without having read the books and not having heard much about the show before, that the casting does not work for me. The combination of choosing a recognizable male lead actor who is arguably primarily known for playing particularly masculine roles, changing the story to heavily rely on his face (and heavily using voiceovers with his recognizable voice), and then changing a supporting character to be non-binary because the supporting actor is, making clear that the casting is very much not blind, makes the whole thing feel like something from old Hollywood, with the lead alone in being incongruously in whatever face required.
It makes me feel like the discussions around misgendering are somewhat misdirected. The show feels like it is cynically trying to have a lead acceptable to everyone, trying portray the character as male and then having occasional contrived mentions that the character isn't, so that conservative viewers can hopefully ignore those mentions or see the pronouns as being humans being hostile to non-humans, and enjoy the male Murderbot, while progressive viewers can hopefully be satisfied with the pandering mentions and the supporting character.
It is no wonder that reviewers get confused. After all, show an excerpt of this show to someone who hasn't read the books, hasn't directly been told about the character's gender, and has some knowledge of popular television, and unless they happen on the few particular mentions, they're going to assume the character is male, perhaps even more so if Pin-Lee is in the excerpt. That seems like a fault of the show, not the reviewer.
Can you point to the anger about misgendering in this thread?
There's been a lot of criticism about the casting of Murderbot itself for this reason. Overall the show is doing alright IMO, and I still expect reviewers to know better. I think to miss the overall political points of the story would require a lot more blindness than just misgendering the SecUnit. It's already been explicitly called slavery, The Company is already accused of providing substandard junk, giving them a map with holes in it, etc. Capitalism is being criticized throughout. Hell, one of my favorite points, yet to be shown, is critical of "well-meaning liberals" who won't actually go as far as their convictions should take them.
But Skarsgard is at least doing a good job of expressing Murderbot 's total discomfort with being treated like a person.
That is a remarkably astute take for someone who has not read the books.
The show definitely leans more into the neurodivergent aspects of the main character, and moves most queer aspects over to a side character.
Yet the side characters are given significantly more focus in the show, in terms of character and plot.
To me, the queer aspects come through much more strongly in the show, where as the book is more focused on the inner feelings to prejudice, and discrimination, and the inner thoughts regarding self determination and personal growth.
I'm a little surprised about the pacing of the show. I was thinking season 1 takes us through the four novellas if they're 10-12 full length episodes, but 10 half hours for all of book one seems like a bit of a slog. The anxiety horror show before everyone is on the same page about Murderbot doesn't do much for me, but it didn't work for me in the books either.
If the show goes onto Season 2... (Book Spoilers)
You would also have to consider that Murderbot goes off on its own for what would be three seasons worth of show time, before eventually coming back to PresAux. That's an awkward situation to put 90% of the cast in, to have them on retainer for three seasons worth of TV and then make them main characters again. Do you have them doing stuff in the background, or only plan on adapting four seasons, or just keep them around and interpret the books as written?
Edit: Pronoun fix.
EDIT: thanks for correcting your message.
Murderbot uses it/its pronouns as discussed above. Misgendering fictionnal characters is still toxic behaviour.
Can we not jump to "toxic" for simple mistakes? I sure wouldn't want to be called that if I'd made the same mistake.
That was my mistake and I regret the error. The point still stands about me not being sure about the pacing of the show once we’re past All Systems Red, and if the show would be able to get to the later material at the rate it’s going, or off ramp after the first four novellas.
The season just ended, and I think it did a pretty good job at adapting ASR, and look forward to the recently announced season 2. I'm not sure if they're going a season per novel or if there are plans to work in PresAux into some of the later seasons if they want to give the rest of the cast something to do, but I like what they did with them while they were here, and it would be un-television to drop almost of the characters save MB, make it the focal point of seasons 2 and 3, but bring all of them back together for 4. Maybe it works though?
Murderbot's first season has ended. I enjoyed it quite a bit. That season felt very focused, like a movie in installments. There was not a lot going on, and I'm okay with it. It had one story to tell, and it did it well. I'm okay with a show where every plot feels like part of a cohesive whole. There are no extraneous concurring subplots. That is a very classic way to tell a story and I am all for it.
I enjoyed reading the books/novellas and I enjoyed watching season 1. It was fun to see the choices that were made transferring the story from written to video form.
I'm very excited for this! I've been looking forward to this since the show was announced.
I have some slight concerns about the tone the show seems to be taking based on the trailer and preview they have been released but I'm withholding full judgement until I can watch.
Martha Wells seems to have been promoting the show on her Bluesky a good amount so I'm hoping that means the show has her seal of approval which would be encouraging.
She's credited as a consulting producer so I guess she worked with the writers.
Yeah it's just that "producer" is so often a vanity title it's just to know when it actually means something.
In an interview, the show writers do say they've been in frequent contact with Wells so she is definitely involved at least a bit.