I would add that Ruby Sunday (played by Millie Gibson) was extremely charismatic. They made a huge narrative investment in building that character, and it was disappointing to see her go. In my...
I would add that Ruby Sunday (played by Millie Gibson) was extremely charismatic. They made a huge narrative investment in building that character, and it was disappointing to see her go. In my opinion, Ruby's arc did not achieve a convincing resolution. Perhaps she will reappear in the next season. Belinda Chandra (Varada Sethu) was a nice companion but nowhere near as compelling. That is partly because she had less screen time for character development than Ruby.
It’s really sad, and you’re quite right. Speculative spoiler The speculation that Ruby, Belinda, and Desiderium were originally intended to be the same character before Gibson’s premature exit...
It’s really sad, and you’re quite right.
Speculative spoiler
The speculation that Ruby, Belinda, and Desiderium were originally intended to be the same character before Gibson’s premature exit during Series 14 prompted rewrites (hence the sudden left turn in her character and backstory in The Empire of Death) and Gatwa’s premature exit the following series did the same (hence The Reality War’s own rewrites) have proved quite convincing to me. Ruby being the God of Wishes herself and using it all to wish it away and become a parent herself after everything she’s been through, from her childhood to moments like Lucky Day, would have been a really moving two-series arc. If this is even partly true then I feel for the production crew and showrunners for what happened to their baby.
Wherever fault lies, I really hope that something can change. So many people put their hearts into the past few years and it’s not fair that a few small things like this (as big as they are for we the audience) can affect such an effort of love.
For all my faults with Gatwa's first season, I enjoyed Ruby's character until her story ended so anticlimactically. On the other hand, Belinda's story was about becoming a trad wife. Even her...
For all my faults with Gatwa's first season, I enjoyed Ruby's character until her story ended so anticlimactically. On the other hand, Belinda's story was about becoming a trad wife. Even her initial anger at the Doctor (which I thought was a good setup for an uncommon and interesting character dynamic) is forgotten about after the first episode! It's infuriating to watch her character be gradually reduced to wanting a baby.
Maybe some of this is from last minute re-writes, but I really feel like the whole conclusion is deeply misogynistic.
Misogyny is the hate of women. Perhaps that was bad representation (I'm not sure to be honest). But I don't believe the show defended the hate of women.
Misogyny is the hate of women. Perhaps that was bad representation (I'm not sure to be honest). But I don't believe the show defended the hate of women.
That is broad. I have trouble understanding why this word is used at all. It can mean almost anything in this context. It sound specific but it's a catch-all term now. In any case, I know that...
That is broad. I have trouble understanding why this word is used at all. It can mean almost anything in this context. It sound specific but it's a catch-all term now.
In any case, I know that some people found the show too woke. This is the first time I see criticism that it is not progressive enough.
I can't help the way the English language works, I can just explain that it does. It's not truly catchall though, it's just dealing specifically with issues of prejudice around women. Sexism...
I can't help the way the English language works, I can just explain that it does. It's not truly catchall though, it's just dealing specifically with issues of prejudice around women. Sexism broadly works as a synonym in many, but not all, contexts. It's no different from "homophobia" not meaning "fear of gay people" (or fear of sameness if you get particular) but aversion too, hatred towards or bias against queer people. In many ways this gets around the "intent" argument and lets one focus on the "impact"
Oh it's has it's issues, Moffat in particular doesn't do a great job with women characters. He likes them in to be mysterious and (seemingly) has no plan for who they actually are as people, just look how quirky they are with a mystery around them. With Doctor Who this works a lot of the time, since everything revolves around the doctor, but it's not particularly satisfying.
No show is perfect and every show will have regular complaints, I think that complaints about wokeness aren't to be taken seriously, personally, because it's so vague as to be meaningless. (And then of course I generally prefer the things they're complaining about). But in general Doctor Who has been a good show IMO.
Of course the Doctor has issues. This Doctor in particular is showrunned by Russel T Davies, who's a gay man. I don't know if that is relevant but maybe it is. Moffat was not involved this time.
Of course the Doctor has issues. This Doctor in particular is showrunned by Russel T Davies, who's a gay man. I don't know if that is relevant but maybe it is. Moffat was not involved this time.
I was giving you an example of a time where Doctor Who has had complaints about it not being progressive enough, when Moffat was writing for not just showrunning the series. I don't know that...
I was giving you an example of a time where Doctor Who has had complaints about it not being progressive enough, when Moffat was writing for not just showrunning the series.
I don't know that RTD's sexuality makes a difference in this circumstance, he was the showrunner when Moffat wrote some of the episodes I'm referencing.
All the Doctor Who fandom spaces I'm in thought it wasn't nearly progressive enough. Sure, RTD did some (I hesitate to use this term) virtue signaling: including trans and disabled characters,...
All the Doctor Who fandom spaces I'm in thought it wasn't nearly progressive enough. Sure, RTD did some (I hesitate to use this term) virtue signaling: including trans and disabled characters, emphasizing the Doctor's queerness, having obviously right-wing villains. But he doesn't always actually explore or engage with these issues, and when he does, it comes across as shallow and clueless. I could make more nuanced criticisms of for example the handling of Rose's character or Belinda's arc. But I think elements of this run of DW drew hate from both the right and progressives -- the right, because they're reactionaries who hate minorities; progressives, because they're masters of purity testing and uncharitable reading. Well, I exaggerate a little. But RTD I think did reveal himself to be old and out-of-touch with his largely floundering attempts to incorporate social commentary.
I agree with you actually. Not for political reasons but for artistic reasons. What's the point of having an LGBT Doctor if you don't truly explore this? For starters, I would want a male...
I agree with you actually. Not for political reasons but for artistic reasons. What's the point of having an LGBT Doctor if you don't truly explore this? For starters, I would want a male companion. Or non binary like Donna's daughter! I love her, it would make sense and I would like to see the romantic tension play out once again.
EDIT: They already kinda did this with Jack Harkness and it was much better in my opinion.
This is where I so strongly disagree, I could not stand Ruby, but I adored Belinda. Every moment Ruby was on screen I just couldn't believe it, nothing about her was redeemable, or original, or...
This is where I so strongly disagree, I could not stand Ruby, but I adored Belinda. Every moment Ruby was on screen I just couldn't believe it, nothing about her was redeemable, or original, or anything close to intelligent writing. Just kind of felt like she was slapped onto everything and never did any of her own work as a character. Belinda on the other side was wonderful, complex, and had her own personality, outside of the chaotic and obviously fast tracked ending, I thought she was interesting at the very least.
Nobody dislikes Doctor Who like Doctor Who fans, to paraphrase an old adage. I quite liked the last couple of seasons too. I think they did suffer from having a lot of setup that went nowhere, or...
Nobody dislikes Doctor Who like Doctor Who fans, to paraphrase an old adage.
I quite liked the last couple of seasons too. I think they did suffer from having a lot of setup that went nowhere, or had payoff that was ultimately dissatisfying. But the overall quality of the individual episodes was pretty high. I do wish we’d had more time with Gatwa’s Doctor, and both companions. I especially feel like we didn’t get to know Belinda well enough.
I do think the show would benefit from a long hiatus. Like, in the order of 10-15 years. Let a generation of kids grow up not having seen it, let today’s new TV writers cut their teeth on other stuff first, get a feel for the stories they want to tell. And then when the time is ripe for another go, pass the torch. Forget about Moffat, Chibnall, and Davies and give the helm to someone new. Do a big, in-world narrative reset (akin to the off-screen Time War between classic Who and Nu Who). Give the show time to rest and, well, regenerate.
Fans compare the current to past Doctors and the bar is high. I'm watching the Tennnant era and it's absolutely insane how good it is. You'll see similar issues on the Star Trek fan base. It is...
Fans compare the current to past Doctors and the bar is high. I'm watching the Tennnant era and it's absolutely insane how good it is. You'll see similar issues on the Star Trek fan base. It is difficult to evaluate the present without taking the past into consideration. Ncuti would probably achieve his own memorable moments if he stayed in the role.
As someone who's childhood was very much shaped by the classic trilogy, from queuing in the rain outside a now derelict cinema in 1977 to watch A New Hope, to having all the toys and playsets and...
As someone who's childhood was very much shaped by the classic trilogy, from queuing in the rain outside a now derelict cinema in 1977 to watch A New Hope, to having all the toys and playsets and playing all through summers with my best friend, making adventures of our own, I cannot overstate the soul crushing disappointment I felt when watching Episode 1 for the first time, after a 17 year wait.
Midi bloody chlorians? Jar Jar Flaming Binks? Give me a break.
Over time I've mellowed to (most of) the prequel trilogy, given that the Rey films were indescribably bad. I recently re watched all the films with my youngest, (the classic trilogy I unearthed the '4k' series off the internet from the original films -- man the models look so damn good still) and Ep.1 was tolerable. Ep. 3 has some pivotal moments, but man Ep. 2 is a hard watch.
And see, I cried tears of joy during The Force Awakens at seeing Rey pick up a lightsaber on screen. I love the first two movies of the new trilogy. Adore them. The prequel I acknowledge isn't the...
And see, I cried tears of joy during The Force Awakens at seeing Rey pick up a lightsaber on screen. I love the first two movies of the new trilogy. Adore them.
The prequel I acknowledge isn't the actors' fault but I don't find it particularly watchable
Who isn't! Sometimes we all get too serious about our campy space opera that only sort of makes sense as canon because people, both fans and Lucas, spent decades putting putty in the cracks of it.
Who isn't! Sometimes we all get too serious about our campy space opera that only sort of makes sense as canon because people, both fans and Lucas, spent decades putting putty in the cracks of it.
I think there was something to be done with some of the bigger swings of the show. Magic and the Pantheon being introduced to the show could have worked as something the Doctor could have been...
I think there was something to be done with some of the bigger swings of the show. Magic and the Pantheon being introduced to the show could have worked as something the Doctor could have been caught flatfooted on and not have every answer on hand, and if you wanted to bring back Time Lords or the Rani in particular to try and round it all up and kick it out of the universe, the Doctor now is in a weird position of defending it because it was a mistake to arrange the universe that way in the first place?
But whatever plan they had in play was kind of kneecapped by not planning around the idea that Disney might not renew the show, that the talent may want to go elsewhere, and the fact that RTD was running the show again wasn't enough to move mountains and make things happen. Maybe it's better for the show to sleep it off and start again?
That bit at the end, gave me a chuckle considering the show already did get cancelled for 20 years after low ratings. I'd imagine the future felt more uncertain back then than now.
That bit at the end,
RTD’s second era was meant to be a triumphant return. Instead, it has stalled under the weight of its own ambition, nostalgia and misjudged tone. The future of Doctor Who has never felt more uncertain now.
gave me a chuckle considering the show already did get cancelled for 20 years after low ratings. I'd imagine the future felt more uncertain back then than now.
I would add that Ruby Sunday (played by Millie Gibson) was extremely charismatic. They made a huge narrative investment in building that character, and it was disappointing to see her go. In my opinion, Ruby's arc did not achieve a convincing resolution. Perhaps she will reappear in the next season. Belinda Chandra (Varada Sethu) was a nice companion but nowhere near as compelling. That is partly because she had less screen time for character development than Ruby.
It’s really sad, and you’re quite right.
Speculative spoiler
The speculation that Ruby, Belinda, and Desiderium were originally intended to be the same character before Gibson’s premature exit during Series 14 prompted rewrites (hence the sudden left turn in her character and backstory in The Empire of Death) and Gatwa’s premature exit the following series did the same (hence The Reality War’s own rewrites) have proved quite convincing to me. Ruby being the God of Wishes herself and using it all to wish it away and become a parent herself after everything she’s been through, from her childhood to moments like Lucky Day, would have been a really moving two-series arc. If this is even partly true then I feel for the production crew and showrunners for what happened to their baby.
Wherever fault lies, I really hope that something can change. So many people put their hearts into the past few years and it’s not fair that a few small things like this (as big as they are for we the audience) can affect such an effort of love.
I guess the show suffered from casting highly sought actors. They are way more likely to abandon ship than less-known performers.
For all my faults with Gatwa's first season, I enjoyed Ruby's character until her story ended so anticlimactically. On the other hand, Belinda's story was about becoming a trad wife. Even her initial anger at the Doctor (which I thought was a good setup for an uncommon and interesting character dynamic) is forgotten about after the first episode! It's infuriating to watch her character be gradually reduced to wanting a baby.
Maybe some of this is from last minute re-writes, but I really feel like the whole conclusion is deeply misogynistic.
Misogyny is the hate of women. Perhaps that was bad representation (I'm not sure to be honest). But I don't believe the show defended the hate of women.
It's also ingrained prejudice against women. And that would be the definition most applicable. It's not just a literal translation of the Greek
That is broad. I have trouble understanding why this word is used at all. It can mean almost anything in this context. It sound specific but it's a catch-all term now.
In any case, I know that some people found the show too woke. This is the first time I see criticism that it is not progressive enough.
I can't help the way the English language works, I can just explain that it does. It's not truly catchall though, it's just dealing specifically with issues of prejudice around women. Sexism broadly works as a synonym in many, but not all, contexts. It's no different from "homophobia" not meaning "fear of gay people" (or fear of sameness if you get particular) but aversion too, hatred towards or bias against queer people. In many ways this gets around the "intent" argument and lets one focus on the "impact"
Oh it's has it's issues, Moffat in particular doesn't do a great job with women characters. He likes them in to be mysterious and (seemingly) has no plan for who they actually are as people, just look how quirky they are with a mystery around them. With Doctor Who this works a lot of the time, since everything revolves around the doctor, but it's not particularly satisfying.
No show is perfect and every show will have regular complaints, I think that complaints about wokeness aren't to be taken seriously, personally, because it's so vague as to be meaningless. (And then of course I generally prefer the things they're complaining about). But in general Doctor Who has been a good show IMO.
Of course the Doctor has issues. This Doctor in particular is showrunned by Russel T Davies, who's a gay man. I don't know if that is relevant but maybe it is. Moffat was not involved this time.
I was giving you an example of a time where Doctor Who has had complaints about it not being progressive enough, when Moffat was writing for not just showrunning the series.
I don't know that RTD's sexuality makes a difference in this circumstance, he was the showrunner when Moffat wrote some of the episodes I'm referencing.
All the Doctor Who fandom spaces I'm in thought it wasn't nearly progressive enough. Sure, RTD did some (I hesitate to use this term) virtue signaling: including trans and disabled characters, emphasizing the Doctor's queerness, having obviously right-wing villains. But he doesn't always actually explore or engage with these issues, and when he does, it comes across as shallow and clueless. I could make more nuanced criticisms of for example the handling of Rose's character or Belinda's arc. But I think elements of this run of DW drew hate from both the right and progressives -- the right, because they're reactionaries who hate minorities; progressives, because they're masters of purity testing and uncharitable reading. Well, I exaggerate a little. But RTD I think did reveal himself to be old and out-of-touch with his largely floundering attempts to incorporate social commentary.
I agree with you actually. Not for political reasons but for artistic reasons. What's the point of having an LGBT Doctor if you don't truly explore this? For starters, I would want a male companion. Or non binary like Donna's daughter! I love her, it would make sense and I would like to see the romantic tension play out once again.
EDIT: They already kinda did this with Jack Harkness and it was much better in my opinion.
This is where I so strongly disagree, I could not stand Ruby, but I adored Belinda. Every moment Ruby was on screen I just couldn't believe it, nothing about her was redeemable, or original, or anything close to intelligent writing. Just kind of felt like she was slapped onto everything and never did any of her own work as a character. Belinda on the other side was wonderful, complex, and had her own personality, outside of the chaotic and obviously fast tracked ending, I thought she was interesting at the very least.
I swear the fandom watches a completely different show to me. I've quite enjoyed the last couple of seasons shrug
Nobody dislikes Doctor Who like Doctor Who fans, to paraphrase an old adage.
I quite liked the last couple of seasons too. I think they did suffer from having a lot of setup that went nowhere, or had payoff that was ultimately dissatisfying. But the overall quality of the individual episodes was pretty high. I do wish we’d had more time with Gatwa’s Doctor, and both companions. I especially feel like we didn’t get to know Belinda well enough.
I do think the show would benefit from a long hiatus. Like, in the order of 10-15 years. Let a generation of kids grow up not having seen it, let today’s new TV writers cut their teeth on other stuff first, get a feel for the stories they want to tell. And then when the time is ripe for another go, pass the torch. Forget about Moffat, Chibnall, and Davies and give the helm to someone new. Do a big, in-world narrative reset (akin to the off-screen Time War between classic Who and Nu Who). Give the show time to rest and, well, regenerate.
Fans compare the current to past Doctors and the bar is high. I'm watching the Tennnant era and it's absolutely insane how good it is. You'll see similar issues on the Star Trek fan base. It is difficult to evaluate the present without taking the past into consideration. Ncuti would probably achieve his own memorable moments if he stayed in the role.
Yeah, actually I've thought before that another hiatus would be good
Off topic:
I'd never heard that before, and now I wonder what other fandoms could be described this way? Star Wars is an obvious one.
I've seen Star Wars described that way but with more of a "hate" than a dislike
As someone who's childhood was very much shaped by the classic trilogy, from queuing in the rain outside a now derelict cinema in 1977 to watch A New Hope, to having all the toys and playsets and playing all through summers with my best friend, making adventures of our own, I cannot overstate the soul crushing disappointment I felt when watching Episode 1 for the first time, after a 17 year wait.
Midi bloody chlorians? Jar Jar Flaming Binks? Give me a break.
Over time I've mellowed to (most of) the prequel trilogy, given that the Rey films were indescribably bad. I recently re watched all the films with my youngest, (the classic trilogy I unearthed the '4k' series off the internet from the original films -- man the models look so damn good still) and Ep.1 was tolerable. Ep. 3 has some pivotal moments, but man Ep. 2 is a hard watch.
Rogue One is a good addition to the milieu too.
And see, I cried tears of joy during The Force Awakens at seeing Rey pick up a lightsaber on screen. I love the first two movies of the new trilogy. Adore them.
The prequel I acknowledge isn't the actors' fault but I don't find it particularly watchable
I'm just too old and cynical probably.
Who isn't! Sometimes we all get too serious about our campy space opera that only sort of makes sense as canon because people, both fans and Lucas, spent decades putting putty in the cracks of it.
I think there was something to be done with some of the bigger swings of the show. Magic and the Pantheon being introduced to the show could have worked as something the Doctor could have been caught flatfooted on and not have every answer on hand, and if you wanted to bring back Time Lords or the Rani in particular to try and round it all up and kick it out of the universe, the Doctor now is in a weird position of defending it because it was a mistake to arrange the universe that way in the first place?
But whatever plan they had in play was kind of kneecapped by not planning around the idea that Disney might not renew the show, that the talent may want to go elsewhere, and the fact that RTD was running the show again wasn't enough to move mountains and make things happen. Maybe it's better for the show to sleep it off and start again?
That bit at the end,
gave me a chuckle considering the show already did get cancelled for 20 years after low ratings. I'd imagine the future felt more uncertain back then than now.