20 votes

How Game of Thrones Ruined its Most Important Episode

20 comments

  1. [4]
    Cananopie Link
    Yes, it's true- when the show outpaced the books the whole show started to lose its structure. In fact, it was Martins depth and the shows allegiance to Martins style and depth of characters that...

    Yes, it's true- when the show outpaced the books the whole show started to lose its structure. In fact, it was Martins depth and the shows allegiance to Martins style and depth of characters that made the show. The first several seasons are almost carbon copies of the book and most fans could agree that those things left out or changed by the show were either acceptable or necessary.

    But when the show caught up to the book it was left to writers and directors that film society (those who love film) have endorsed, rather than someone like Martin who has been endorsed by the literary society (those who love books). And Game of Thrones is a great example of the divide between the two.

    There is a richness in Martin's work that drew me into it. I can't say the same for films like the Avengers series. Both are epic, but one focuses more on stimulating the mind's eye while that other focuses more on just stimulating the eye. And this is not a criticism of the Avengers, this is a criticism of almost all film of the last few decades. Film used to rely far more heavily on good dialogue but with the advent of cgi there was a realization of the profit that comes with things that look cool over things that make sense.

    It does not take someone with depth to love an explosion or to become entranced by hyperstimulating bodies. Film plays with our desires of body image, power, pride, ego. Yes, literature can do that too, but that needs to be built by an individual who is willing to take the time to buy into that world. It's a more serious investment. And there are legions of trashy novel readers who are happy to make that investment. But passively watching irrational things happen on a screen in any orgy of emotional manipulation is hardly an investment at all. It's the ultimate passive entertainment. You don't have to imagine anything like with a book, it's literally force fed to you.

    This has been something Hollywood and the film industry as a whole has been doing for a while unchecked, incentivized by the profits associated with it. You don't need 13 year old kids to make sense of the Avengers, you just need them to come in droves to see it. And we, as a society, have rewarded these directors and film industry stars with both money and power.

    When Martin's books end of course the directors of GoT are going to get "the best." And "the best" doesn't care about character depth. They prostitute the characters they have, which is why the industry focuses so heavily on remakes or characters that already have investments (superheroes, star wars, remakes of successful movies). And this is what we saw in episode 3 as well as a lot of other things in the last couple seasons. We aren't supposed to care what makes sense, we need to be shocked, surprised, and awed into submission Fahrenheit 451 style. And you know what? Almost everybody is.

    12 votes
    1. [3]
      Nivlak Link Parent
      It seems like you’re forgetting that the avengers has deep lore that was written first, then put to film. If you were a fan of the deep lore in comics, then you would know that the avengers movies...

      It seems like you’re forgetting that the avengers has deep lore that was written first, then put to film. If you were a fan of the deep lore in comics, then you would know that the avengers movies are filled with lore directly from the comics themselves. Which of course the comics themselves are all about being flashy and colorful. The movies stayed true to the material in the same way you say GoT stuck to the material in the first 5-6 seasons.

      Sure someone with no history or understanding of comics will see the avengers and only see explosions and super powers. But the decades of lore created by Stan Lee and many other legendary WRITERS is there for people who know it and can see it.

      3 votes
      1. cwagner Link Parent
        Both DC and Marvel had relatively recent reboots (DC's new 52) or gradual changes (Marvel) that made them a lot more mainstream-friendly (hell, DC made Constantine a nice person, something I'll...

        Both DC and Marvel had relatively recent reboots (DC's new 52) or gradual changes (Marvel) that made them a lot more mainstream-friendly (hell, DC made Constantine a nice person, something I'll never forgive them and what marked the end of my comic days). The movies draw from the lore, but to me, it feels more like a perversion of the lore to make exactly what GP described out of it.

        2 votes
      2. NaraVara Link Parent
        The MCU lore is very different from the comics lore. It’s much less layered and a lot less “weird.” The infinity gauntlet story in the comics has Thanos squaring off against abstract entities that...

        The MCU lore is very different from the comics lore. It’s much less layered and a lot less “weird.” The infinity gauntlet story in the comics has Thanos squaring off against abstract entities that represent concepts like “order” and “chaos.”

        That sort of esoteric weirdness doesn’t happen in the movies. Instead of bizarre, psychedelic stuff they made cosmic marvel kind of goofy and slapstick instead. And I’m fine with that. The movies are a different deal, but they’re just not the same in the slightest.

        1 vote
  2. [7]
    doug3465 Link
    I feel sorry for people who haven't already accepted the top-level writing has been trash for at least 2 seasons now and will continue to be. Enjoy the spectacle of it and be happier.

    I feel sorry for people who haven't already accepted the top-level writing has been trash for at least 2 seasons now and will continue to be. Enjoy the spectacle of it and be happier.

    11 votes
    1. [2]
      Adys Link Parent
      Its been of lower quality but calling it trash is really misplaced. You wanna see trash writing, take a look at the later seasons of Dexter. And don't forget grrm is still consulting on these..

      Its been of lower quality but calling it trash is really misplaced. You wanna see trash writing, take a look at the later seasons of Dexter.

      And don't forget grrm is still consulting on these..

      4 votes
      1. Loire Link Parent
        No he isn't. He stop consulting in 2015 citing his need to concentrate on writing. He did, however, provide a narrative guideline to the showrunners three years ago in a much publicized meeting.

        No he isn't. He stop consulting in 2015 citing his need to concentrate on writing. He did, however, provide a narrative guideline to the showrunners three years ago in a much publicized meeting.

        3 votes
    2. wakamex Link Parent
      all the intricate fan theories that could have been... reminds me of george lucas giving up on the jar jar sith theory

      all the intricate fan theories that could have been... reminds me of george lucas giving up on the jar jar sith theory

      3 votes
    3. cwagner Link Parent
      My wife and I have gradually switched to laughing at the ridiculous things happening on screen. It's hard to take it seriously anymore, so why not go all the way and laugh at it :)

      My wife and I have gradually switched to laughing at the ridiculous things happening on screen. It's hard to take it seriously anymore, so why not go all the way and laugh at it :)

      2 votes
    4. MrGrey Link Parent
      For me, there's a good chance I will literally be dead by the time GRRM get's to the last book, so I was hoping for some effort for the last roundup at least. It's a bit like watching all world...

      For me, there's a good chance I will literally be dead by the time GRRM get's to the last book, so I was hoping for some effort for the last roundup at least. It's a bit like watching all world level athletes compete in a game they have never played before today and will never play again. There's an amusement factor, a few genuinely impressive tidbits, but mostly it's just a ragged shadow of what could have been.

      1 vote
    5. Staross Link Parent
      I already noticed the serie was turning bad but I didn't thought too much about it (it was still enjoyable). Now because of this episode I watched a couple of video and thought more about it and...

      I already noticed the serie was turning bad but I didn't thought too much about it (it was still enjoyable). Now because of this episode I watched a couple of video and thought more about it and realized how bad the writing is. Specially last season, the whole thing with Littlefinger was so terrible.

      1 vote
  3. [8]
    Adys Link
    Having been disappointed by the episode, I watched this and just got disappointed by the video as well. The armies fighting weirdly is an acceptable thing to benefit spectacle Arya killing the...

    Having been disappointed by the episode, I watched this and just got disappointed by the video as well.

    • The armies fighting weirdly is an acceptable thing to benefit spectacle
    • Arya killing the night king is fine. She is a good character to do that. She is the most powerful person in that castle by far...
    • Azor Ahai is not really a show thing, it's a book thing. I get that it is disappointing not to see it play out in the show but the show is missing additional context that the book will bring to this.
    • Of all the minor complaints, very few make sense. The dothraki charge was pointless yes, the rest was not really an issue in the show.

    This was the second most disappointing episode of Game of Thrones and somehow the guy doesn't talk about that. He doesn't talk, outside of a microcaption, about the massive plot armor that characters shouldn't have. About the completed arcs of Brienne, Greyworm etc yet somehow the fact they survive the impossible. About the fact that the group of heroes, bar two, is essentially what comes out completely unscathed from the battle AND NOT MUCH ELSE.

    I dunno these complaints are odd. Also please rag spoiler.

    6 votes
    1. [2]
      Autoxidation Link Parent
      I was okay with it as it happened but as time has gone on I'm less and less okay with it. Where did she come from? How did she get past all of those wights and white walkers? She learned how to...
      • Arya killing the night king is fine. She is a good character to do that. She is the most powerful person in that castle by far...

      I was okay with it as it happened but as time has gone on I'm less and less okay with it. Where did she come from? How did she get past all of those wights and white walkers? She learned how to change her face from her time with the Faceless Men, not learn to teleport. It felt like shock for shock value, not really anything meaningful. That's why it was disappointing.

      • Azor Ahai is not really a show thing, it's a book thing. I get that it is disappointing not to see it play out in the show but the show is missing additional context that the book will bring to this.

      The show makes repeated references to "The Prince That Was Promised" which is the same prophecy as Azor Ahai.

      2 votes
      1. Sahasrahla Link Parent
        I think that's what D&D said in the post-episode. Jon would be the obvious choice, Arya would be surprising, and they wanted to shock people. Just to underline this point, believing that Stannis...

        It felt like shock for shock value, not really anything meaningful.

        I think that's what D&D said in the post-episode. Jon would be the obvious choice, Arya would be surprising, and they wanted to shock people.

        The show makes repeated references to "The Prince That Was Promised" which is the same prophecy as Azor Ahai.

        Just to underline this point, believing that Stannis is "The Prince that was Promised" is Melisandre's whole motivation at the beginning. She doesn't help him because she wants to make this random foreigner king of his land but because she believes she's helping the prophesied one who will end the Long Night. Her speech from the first episode of season 2:

        After the long summer, darkness will fall heavy on the world. Stars will bleed. The cold breath of winter will freeze the seas and the dead shall rise in the North. In the ancient books it's written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Light Bringer. Stannis Baratheon, Warrior of Light—your sword awaits you.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTNDHf5AXr4

        2 votes
    2. [2]
      Diet_Coke Link Parent
      It's still a major plot point, the entire reason that Melisandre is in the North. It's been directly referenced a few times. They had the comet in season 2. It's just lazy to throw it all out.

      Azor Ahai is not really a show thing, it's a book thing. I get that it is disappointing not to see it play out in the show but the show is missing additional context that the book will bring to this.

      It's still a major plot point, the entire reason that Melisandre is in the North. It's been directly referenced a few times. They had the comet in season 2. It's just lazy to throw it all out.

      1 vote
      1. Adys Link Parent
        But prophecies aren't always correct ("The Stallion that mounts the world" and what not), and the comet was referenced in multiple prophecies. In fact in the show a character says: "They're all...

        But prophecies aren't always correct ("The Stallion that mounts the world" and what not), and the comet was referenced in multiple prophecies. In fact in the show a character says: "They're all wrong. This only means one thing: Dragons".

        And Melisandre was wrong on multiple occasions. It's not crazy to think Azor Ahai was wiiiildly misinterpreted at best. The show doesn't "throw it all out", it just doesn't put emphasis on it, and the prophecy doesn't come true (not exactly).

        GRRM will probably go the same route and explain it a million times better.

        1 vote
    3. [2]
      KapteinB Link Parent
      Now I'm curious: What episode do you consider the most disappointing?

      Now I'm curious: What episode do you consider the most disappointing?

      1. Adys Link Parent
        Mother's Mercy (Season 5 finale). It was a weird, nonsensical episode which would have been okay as a lead-up to a finale, but completely disappointed me on every front in an actual season finale....

        Mother's Mercy (Season 5 finale). It was a weird, nonsensical episode which would have been okay as a lead-up to a finale, but completely disappointed me on every front in an actual season finale. With far too much time spent on Cersei's tits, and an extremely weird turnaround in Arya's storyline. I barely even remember what happened in it…

        1 vote
    4. Staross Link Parent
      The problem is that the whole Arya character has been build around her list and becoming an assassin to take revenge on the Lannisters. I think it would have been better that when she learns that...

      The problem is that the whole Arya character has been build around her list and becoming an assassin to take revenge on the Lannisters.

      I think it would have been better that when she learns that Snow is in Winterfeld she decides (maybe with difficulty) to continue on her mission to kill Cersei. That would also have saved us from the nonsensical story with Sansa and Littlefinger in season 7.

  4. Amarok Link
    I must admit I've been enjoying watching Thrones fans tear each other apart over this boondoggle - my popcorn stocks are paying out handsome dividends this week. So far my favorite play by play of...

    I must admit I've been enjoying watching Thrones fans tear each other apart over this boondoggle - my popcorn stocks are paying out handsome dividends this week. So far my favorite play by play of what the fuck went wrong has been The Critical Drinker's take, though that may just be because an angry drunken irish accent is so well suited to tearing shit down.

    Even in the reaction videos you can see it. The folks into the spectacle lose their shit, but there's always a few people with that soul-dying out of their eyes look when they watch Thrones jump the shark with such style.

    4 votes