16 votes

Linux is a subpar choice for professional video editing

I don't wanna get into a heated discussion, so let me make something very clear: for a regular user, video editing on Linux is probably fine.

That is just not my use case.

I'm used to a degree of freedom, choice, and stability that, right now, Linux does not provide in that area.

I'm a film major who has worked as a professional video editor for many years and editing video on anything that is not nearly as good, reliable and precise as Adobe Premiere feels like torture.

But even being very flexible regarding features and requirements, after trying all the regular suggestions, as professional tools, and with all the respect I can muster, they are just unusable for me.

I need a reliable program in which I can throw any format without worrying about constant crashes, but Linux options are all either extremely limited, unstable or both! Before anyone asks: I tried multiple programs, in different versions and installation methods, on entirely different hardware and unaffiliated distributions.

Kdenlive resembles professional-grade software but constantly crashes at the simplest operations. DaVinci Resolve seems like a good bet but is a nightmare just to install and equally crashy when/if I'm able to do so (last time I had to manually edit the install script following the instructions of some random forum post. This did not cause a good impression. And audio didn't work), and I'm not willing to use something so finicky if Linux doesn't get primary support.

Besides, Blackmagic Design only provides a few pieces of the puzzle. Professional video editing requires a whole stack of integrated software. Both Windows and Mac OS have this, Linux has not.

There's also the issue of GPU acceleration.

I'm not saying FOSS developers owe me anything, nor that they have done a bad job with programs like OpenShot, Pitivi, Blender, whatever. I'm just saying that, regrettably, I'll probably have to install put Windows on dual-boot on my machine in the next few days.

70 comments

  1. [12]
    papasquat
    Link
    Honestly, unless you're a programmer, sysadmin, network engineer, or someone who may use a computer, but doesn't really rely on specific software for your workflow (you just use email, write...

    Honestly, unless you're a programmer, sysadmin, network engineer, or someone who may use a computer, but doesn't really rely on specific software for your workflow (you just use email, write documents, use webapps, etc) you're going to have a bad time trying to use linux professionally. I say this as someone who uses linux professionally.

    Professional software is very very difficult to develop, given that one wrong design choice can end up costing millions of dollars in lost productivity, and the funding just isn't there in the open source arena for anything but the most fundamental system level projects that large corporations rely on. No one really uses linux as a desktop outside STEM fields, unless they're just using the PCs as general workstations (even then, it's hard to beat the inertia of MS office, especially Outlook/Exchange), so no one is funding those projects. It's impressive that they work as well as they do given the fact that most of them are hobbies. I'd love for large enterprises to wake up one day and decide to collaboratively fund high quality open source projects that they'd all benefit from at a fraction of the cost of the licensing fees they pay to Microsoft, but I don't see that happening any time soon unfortunately.

    There's definitely a vocal minority of the FOSS community that would shame you for "giving up", but those are people who are completely unable to empathize that people have different needs and work in different jobs than they do. I don't think there's anything wrong with jumping ship if it means you actually get to be good at your job, and there's not really a whole lot you can do about improving the situation besides investing your own time or donating to open source projects.

    9 votes
    1. [6]
      tindall
      Link Parent
      This is a really interesting point of view, because in my experience these are exactly the people who have the least barrier to using free desktops. To give just one example, my parents, who both...

      Honestly, unless you're a programmer, sysadmin, network engineer, or someone who may use a computer, but doesn't really rely on specific software for your workflow (you just use email, write documents, use webapps, etc) you're going to have a bad time trying to use linux professionally. I say this as someone who uses linux professionally.

      This is a really interesting point of view, because in my experience these are exactly the people who have the least barrier to using free desktops. To give just one example, my parents, who both work with text professionally, use Linux on ThinkPads. They use Office365 in the browser for just about everything, and Gmail for email (though they could just as easily use OWA).

      I would say that people who do "really rely on specific software for your workflow", such as mrbig, would have a much harder time.

      5 votes
      1. [3]
        papasquat
        Link Parent
        That's what I mean. Most people, including your parents, would be fine using linux as they don't rely on a specific piece of software to do their job. They need email, but they don't need outlook...

        That's what I mean. Most people, including your parents, would be fine using linux as they don't rely on a specific piece of software to do their job. They need email, but they don't need outlook specifically, any email client will do.

        People like graphic designers who absolutely, 100% must have a copy of Photoshop on their computers, or an engineer who must have a copy of AutoCAD on their computers aren't going to have a good time on Linux, even if they can get those programs running via compatibility layers or virtual machines.

        5 votes
        1. Akir
          Link Parent
          While I agree with you generally, I think this is becoming an increasingly antequated viewpoint as more and more applications move into the cloud. For instance, POS systems used to require...

          While I agree with you generally, I think this is becoming an increasingly antequated viewpoint as more and more applications move into the cloud. For instance, POS systems used to require specialized terminals, but now you can subscribe to a SaaS application and use any device that can run a standards-compliant browser. There are already many examples of professional creative tools moving to the cloud, including Adobe's Lightroom and Corel's Gravit Designer, but there are an uncountable number of business tools that have already made the plunge.

          6 votes
        2. tindall
          Link Parent
          Ah, I see. We agree, I just misread your opening sentence.

          Ah, I see. We agree, I just misread your opening sentence.

          2 votes
      2. [2]
        mrbig
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I think the original argument should make use of the qualifier specialized for it to work. General office work can be done with LibreOffice, Microsoft Office online or Google Docs, but good enough...

        I think the original argument should make use of the qualifier specialized for it to work.

        General office work can be done with LibreOffice, Microsoft Office online or Google Docs, but good enough specialized professional software is most frequently not easy to come by on Linux.

        2 votes
        1. tindall
          Link Parent
          Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I'm saying.

          Yes, absolutely. That's exactly what I'm saying.

          3 votes
    2. [4]
      mrbig
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      Emacs is superior to anything I was used to on Windows, and Emacs Fountain Mode (for screenwriting) coupled with Org Mode are by far the best tools for writing and planning I have ever used. i3wm...

      Emacs is superior to anything I was used to on Windows, and Emacs Fountain Mode (for screenwriting) coupled with Org Mode are by far the best tools for writing and planning I have ever used. i3wm is a joy. And the increase in performance is noticeable and welcomed.

      With the exception of video editing, my Linux experience is vastly superior to anything I had on Windows. My unwillingness to reinstall Windows is not out of philosophy or loyalty, I just think using Windows is a pain.

      I’m clearly a nerd, though.

      3 votes
      1. [3]
        loto
        Link Parent
        I think emacs works on windows nowadays, so you probably don't have to sacrifice that part of switching. Otherwise, I had some success a while ago running i3wm in an x server on top of WSL (vcxrv?...

        I think emacs works on windows nowadays, so you probably don't have to sacrifice that part of switching. Otherwise, I had some success a while ago running i3wm in an x server on top of WSL (vcxrv? Xming? one of those) for a few programs (zathura, a terminal and some remote X stuff). I just left it on it's own monitor and it was almost like having a regular linux box inside my windows machine - it could work well if you like i3's workflow but are using Windows otherwise.

        1 vote
        1. [2]
          mrbig
          Link Parent
          Oh, I would never switch! I'm too lazy to change one bit of my Linux setup. It's 5+ years of effort. I achieved nerd-perfection. Dual boot it is!

          Oh, I would never switch! I'm too lazy to change one bit of my Linux setup. It's 5+ years of effort. I achieved nerd-perfection. Dual boot it is!

          1 vote
          1. loto
            Link Parent
            Ah, in that case go for that! No need to replicate what you already have :) If you're interested, I had a script to automate dual-booting a while back (unmouted shared disk, hibernate linux so I'm...

            Ah, in that case go for that! No need to replicate what you already have :)

            If you're interested, I had a script to automate dual-booting a while back (unmouted shared disk, hibernate linux so I'm where I left off before, reboot to windows w/ efibootmgr) that made switching back and forth a little easier, I'm sure I still have it saved.

            1 vote
    3. arp242
      Link Parent
      For some people it's an ethical matter, rather than a pragmatical choice, which explains these kind of attitudes. It's kinda similar to "if you don't like gay sex then don't have any"; it doesn't...

      There's definitely a vocal minority of the FOSS community that would shame you for "giving up", but those are people who are completely unable to empathize that people have different needs and work in different jobs than they do.

      For some people it's an ethical matter, rather than a pragmatical choice, which explains these kind of attitudes. It's kinda similar to "if you don't like gay sex then don't have any"; it doesn't work for the anti-gay crowd because they think it's ethically wrong 🤷‍♂️

  2. [35]
    tindall
    Link
    May I ask what the context is that leads you to "just say" this? I don't think most people disagree, at this point in time.

    I'm just saying that, regrettably, I'll probably have to install Windows on my machine in the next few days.

    May I ask what the context is that leads you to "just say" this? I don't think most people disagree, at this point in time.

    6 votes
    1. [9]
      nothis
      Link Parent
      I can relate to the op‘s position. Linux seems like such a positive project but there is a frustrating level of denial going on when it comes to using it in a professional context that is not IT....

      I can relate to the op‘s position. Linux seems like such a positive project but there is a frustrating level of denial going on when it comes to using it in a professional context that is not IT. You try and be part of that movement on the user side and tend to hit a wall that is usually downplayed and dismissed at either ungrateful or ignorant. So you want a place to vent.

      IMO there is a certain deafness in the Linux community (at which point I will certainly be called out for there not being “a Linux community”, which might as well be the problem) towards the real-world end user experience. I get the argument that proper UX and driver compatibility are monumental tasks and that a non-profit community can never compete with commercial software in that space. But then again, why even bother?

      It seems like 80% of the work is there (mostly the under-the-hood technical stuff) so it’s a bit frustrating. I won’t pretend like I know the solution but it would be great if there was some awareness to look for people who do and put them in a position of power. Using Linux in a context where usability actually matters sucks and it’s about time this is acknowledged without looking for excuses.

      11 votes
      1. [8]
        tindall
        Link Parent
        The solution is that the professional contingent of the free desktops (GNOME and KDE, for the most part) need more funding. This has been the case for a lot of years, but the big corps are only...

        I won’t pretend like I know the solution

        The solution is that the professional contingent of the free desktops (GNOME and KDE, for the most part) need more funding. This has been the case for a lot of years, but the big corps are only interested in funding the parts they use on their servers, so that's where the focus is. There's a lot of volunteer effort, but it's hard to do good, coordinated UX pushes without consistent funding.

        EDIT: Also, there's no real reason these free desktop projects are limited to Linux! If MS and Apple weren't philosophically opposed, we could have free desktops on those platforms, which would (for people like me who can't stand either Windows or Mac OS's desktop environment) a real boon.

        5 votes
        1. [2]
          Akir
          Link Parent
          That's kind of the long and short of everything. Windows and MacOS are easy to use because they have literally spent billions over the years researching how people use computers. We already have a...

          That's kind of the long and short of everything. Windows and MacOS are easy to use because they have literally spent billions over the years researching how people use computers.

          We already have a good example of an industry paying money to make good tools with Blender. And in fact, I would venture to state that the only reason why they ended up integrating a video editor was because there really isn't a good FOSS alternative.

          But at the same time, I think that most people tend to completely disregard how much innovation has come from the FOSS side when it comes to desktop computing. There are so many features that I have seen come to KDE or Gnome first that have been copied by Microsoft. Look at how Mozilla pioneered the concept of tabbed browsing, and look how long it took either Microsoft or Apple to add virtual desktops.

          4 votes
          1. nothis
            Link Parent
            I think Mozilla is the best positive example out there. Firefox is super well thought out and you can feel the polish that goes into the UX. An hey, people actually use it!

            Look at how Mozilla pioneered the concept of tabbed browsing

            I think Mozilla is the best positive example out there. Firefox is super well thought out and you can feel the polish that goes into the UX. An hey, people actually use it!

            1 vote
        2. [3]
          mrbig
          Link Parent
          I believe more FOSS projects should have more upfront profit models like elementary OS is doing. That is my view a great hope.

          I believe more FOSS projects should have more upfront profit models like elementary OS is doing. That is my view a great hope.

          1 vote
          1. [2]
            tindall
            Link Parent
            Yep! Elementary OS is a great project, and their business model seems to work well for them.

            Yep! Elementary OS is a great project, and their business model seems to work well for them.

            2 votes
            1. mrbig
              Link Parent
              I don't like the elementary OS itself, it's not my cup of tea, but I really think most people "works" better on a "consumer" mindset, so, if instead of giving your product and then asking for...

              I don't like the elementary OS itself, it's not my cup of tea, but I really think most people "works" better on a "consumer" mindset, so, if instead of giving your product and then asking for donations you just put an optional price to it (even if you can set it to "zero") you will get more revenue.

              You can also keep a "donate" button or create a Patreon if you want.

              There's absolutely nothing wrong with that strategy, and it can be very beneficial for some projects!

              1 vote
        3. [2]
          mrbig
          Link Parent
          Yes, but they are opposed, and their current model is making them a lot of money, so it will take them literally decades to change to open-source, if they ever do. The reason many users turn to...

          If MS and Apple weren't philosophically opposed, we could have free desktops on those platforms, which would (for people like me who can't stand either Windows or Mac OS's desktop environment) a real boon.

          Yes, but they are opposed, and their current model is making them a lot of money, so it will take them literally decades to change to open-source, if they ever do. The reason many users turn to the open-source community is that the open-source gives them hope that corporations are unable and unwittingly to provide.

          1. tindall
            Link Parent
            That's actually not what I'm discussing here. I'm one of the people who turn to open source for the reason you mention - I run exclusively free desktops, not due to an ideological commitment but...

            it will take them literally decades to change to open-source, if they ever do

            That's actually not what I'm discussing here. I'm one of the people who turn to open source for the reason you mention - I run exclusively free desktops, not due to an ideological commitment but because they work far better for me - and I've long been an advocate of separating the idea of a free desktop from that of a free kernel.

            Obviously having a free kernel is important for trust, but for average user happiness, having control over the desktop environment - being able to disable ads completely and permanently, change window manager behaviour, etc - is far, far more important. Furthermore, a free desktop running on Windows and Mac OS would mean that users could slowly transition from fully proprietary platforms, get as many benefits as possible without giving up their critical platform-locked software (like mrbig is discussing here). Then, if/when the cost/benefit analysis flips, such as when Apple releases breaking updates like Catalina or some critical piece of software is replaced or is no longer platform-locked, they could very seamlessly decide to transition to a free kernel with the same free desktop they're used to running.

            Of course, this means it's in Apple and MS's best interest not to allow this, but unlike "going open source" this is something with at least potentially valid antitrust concerns. Now if only we in the US could get our asses in gear and actually enforce antitrust!

            1 vote
    2. [25]
      mrbig
      Link Parent
      Tildes' usually a reasonable place, but you might be surprised by the hostility something like what I wrote can get in certain places. That's probably why I adopt defensive language when...

      Tildes' usually a reasonable place, but you might be surprised by the hostility something like what I wrote can get in certain places. That's probably why I adopt defensive language when addressing certain subjects. Sometimes it's automatic.

      4 votes
      1. [24]
        tindall
        Link Parent
        Absolutely, I fully understand that problem. My question was more regarding what it is you're looking for in responses: affirmation? Suggestions of how to improve your situation? Links to tools...

        Absolutely, I fully understand that problem. My question was more regarding what it is you're looking for in responses: affirmation? Suggestions of how to improve your situation? Links to tools you haven't heard of?

        4 votes
        1. [23]
          mrbig
          Link Parent
          I don't expect any specific response. I would be pleasantly surprised by the suggestion of a promising tool I haven't tried before. Maybe I just wanted to share this state of things for this...

          I don't expect any specific response. I would be pleasantly surprised by the suggestion of a promising tool I haven't tried before.

          Maybe I just wanted to share this state of things for this thread to become a point of reference to counter all the excessively positive fanboy statements that "you can do everything on Linux", and also misguided suggestions towards consumer-oriented software even in professional use cases.

          If a developer feels inspired by this need, all the better!

          1. [22]
            tindall
            Link Parent
            I think this is definitely a good thing; anyone saying that is clearly incorrect, because there are things that require proprietary software which requires proprietary platforms. I think it's...

            I just wanted to share this state of things for this thread to become a point of reference to counter all the excessively positive fanboy statements that "you can do everything on Linux"

            I think this is definitely a good thing; anyone saying that is clearly incorrect, because there are things that require proprietary software which requires proprietary platforms.

            I think it's worth asking, however, whether this is true of any platform. It's certainly not true of Windows; working with the devices often used to drive physical art installations, embedded devices from many manufacturers (though not all, for some the situation is reversed), and of course software development of many kinds (Python and Rust come to mind) is infuriating on Windows. Similarly on Mac OS.

            I also do think it's worth digging a little deeper into the economic realities of why this is the case. You mentioned

            I'm a film major who has worked as a professional video editor for many years and editing video on anything that is not nearly as good, reliable and precise as Adobe Premiere feels like torture.

            which makes me think that your assertion

            But even being very flexible regarding features and requirements, after trying all the regular suggestions, as professional tools, and with all the respect I can muster, they are just unusable for me.

            is perhaps not the whole story. For example, I'm a Vim userl I like Vim, I've used it for many years, and I have a lot of muscle memory for its controls, modes, and workarounds. This makes it basically impossible for me to evaluate other editing software, because it slows me down and makes me frustrated, no matter how good the design.

            Furthermore, you mention that

            I need a reliable program in which I can throw any format without worrying about constant crashes

            If your experience with Adobe products has been that they don't constantly crash, I'm happy for you, but that's not the experience I've heard from a lot of people, though moreso regarding Photoshop and their audio editor (I forget the name off the top of my head, sorry) than Premiere. To again draw parallels between us, I notice crashes and slowness in IDEs like IntelliJ more than I do in Vim, despite the fact that Vim has plenty of corner cases that cause unbearable lag and even crashes - but I have an instinct for when that might happen, so it annoys me less.

            But drilling down to the bottom of this, I think you've hit the nail on the head when you say:

            I'm not saying FOSS developers owe me anything, nor that they have done a bad job with programs like OpenShot, Pitivi, Blender, whatever. I'm just saying that, regrettably, I'll probably have to install Windows on my machine in the next few days.

            I think you should use the tool that's right for the job. Outside of the absolute wankfest that is /r/linux, I doubt anyone would recommend that a professional video editor use Linux at the moment as a video editing machine. If someone did, they are... well, out of touch with reality, at the very least.

            I also think it's worth thinking about where the defensiveness here comes from. I used to feel the same way about gaming (which, funnily enough, I can now do exclusively on Linux, yay), and after a couple years, I realized it was because I fucking hated the experience of using a Windows desktop. It was honestly not worth it for me. Obviously gaming is not my job, so the calculation there is a bit different, but it might be worth considering whether or not that's where your unhappiness around this topic is coming from.

            But, yeah, in the end the whole industry has entrenched itself around Premiere, so unless Adobe releases Linux binaries (unlikely) or its source code (never), Linux may never be the right platform for your studio computers.

            2 votes
            1. mrbig
              Link Parent
              If the programs worked well enough I would be very open to learning a different workflow. Learning new programs is something I enjoy. I recently learned to use Gimp (coming from Photoshop) and...

              is perhaps not the whole story. For example, I'm a Vim userl I like Vim, I've used it for many years, and I have a lot of muscle memory for its controls, modes, and workarounds. This makes it basically impossible for me to evaluate other editing software, because it slows me down and makes me frustrated, no matter how good the design.

              If the programs worked well enough I would be very open to learning a different workflow. Learning new programs is something I enjoy. I recently learned to use Gimp (coming from Photoshop) and Inkscape (coming from Illustrator).

              1 vote
            2. [20]
              mrbig
              Link Parent
              Adobe products crash a lot, and Windows and Mac OS have their own very special crashes. But Adobe Premiere, to be specific, crashes much less than all the video editors I ever tried on Linux. And...

              Adobe products crash a lot, and Windows and Mac OS have their own very special crashes. But Adobe Premiere, to be specific, crashes much less than all the video editors I ever tried on Linux. And Premiere's crashes usually happens after some time, they don't crash whenever I try doing a specific thing 100% of the time in all projects. With KDEnlive, for example, it crashes 100% of the times I try to import an audio file, making it virtually impossible to work.

              1. [16]
                cfabbro
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                Have you considered giving Corel's Pinnacle Studio 23 a try? It's not FOSS, and it's Windows only... but at least it, and the rest of Corel's Creative Suite (Painter, Paintshop Pro, Aftershot,...

                Have you considered giving Corel's Pinnacle Studio 23 a try? It's not FOSS, and it's Windows only... but at least it, and the rest of Corel's Creative Suite (Painter, Paintshop Pro, Aftershot, etc), are a decent "professional-grade" alternative to Adobe that you aren't forced to pay monthly for.

                I doubt I have nearly the same video editing experience or requirements as you, since I'm just a hobbyist who only occasionally needs to edit short videos... but so far for me, PS23 has felt like a decent enough replacement for Premiere. The flat cost is also much more appealing to me than Adobe CC, especially since I actually managed to pick up the entire Corel Suite, including PS23 Ultimate, for just $25 via a Humble Bundle deal last year. ;)

                2 votes
                1. [15]
                  mrbig
                  Link Parent
                  Thanks! But, if I'm already going full Windows, I see no reason to use anything other than Adobe. Besides being the industry standard, I actually like their programs, and would only make an effort...

                  Thanks!

                  But, if I'm already going full Windows, I see no reason to use anything other than Adobe. Besides being the industry standard, I actually like their programs, and would only make an effort to use alternatives if it meant staying on Linux.

                  My roommate has a full Adobe subscription and does not use it much. So I'll just use his for the time being.

                  1 vote
                  1. [14]
                    cfabbro
                    Link Parent
                    I love Adobe's software too. I grew up on it, and have been using it for well over 20 years, so it's by far the most familiar to me. But I recently got totally fucked by them when I canceled my...

                    I love Adobe's software too. I grew up on it, and have been using it for well over 20 years, so it's by far the most familiar to me. But I recently got totally fucked by them when I canceled my yearly CC subscription. I needed to cancel it a few months early, and the assholes had the gal to charge me a $50 "early cancellation" fee, on top of me having to pay off the monthly fees I had remaining. So because of that, I am done with them as a company. Scumbags. I hope they enjoy the $50, because it's the last they will ever be getting from me.

                    1 vote
                    1. [9]
                      mrbig
                      (edited )
                      Link Parent
                      Yes, they are assholes. But they are assholes who make good software that, in many situations, has no reasonable alternatives. I mean, not really.

                      Yes, they are assholes. But they are assholes who make good software that, in many situations, has no reasonable alternatives. I mean, not really.

                      1 vote
                      1. [8]
                        Akir
                        Link Parent
                        I know there are some very specific things that you will need Adobe software for, but very few of them are creative in nature. There are better alternatives for practically every Creative Suite...

                        I know there are some very specific things that you will need Adobe software for, but very few of them are creative in nature. There are better alternatives for practically every Creative Suite application, many of which are offered for less.

                        And really, when it comes to creative work it is the end result that matters, not the tools.

                        The only things I would recommend buying from Adobe are their fonts or their PDF tools. And even then if you have to use Adobe's advanced PDF functionality I would rather question why you think you need it. I still question why we need email and 3D capability in a document format that is supposed to represent a printed document.

                        2 votes
                        1. [7]
                          mrbig
                          (edited )
                          Link Parent
                          I believe your knowledge of Adobe Products and how they are used by professionals in creative industries is incomplete. Adobe is way more than PDFs, they make essential software of unparalleled...

                          I believe your knowledge of Adobe Products and how they are used by professionals in creative industries is incomplete.

                          Adobe is way more than PDFs, they make essential software of unparalleled quality for a number of video editing, graphic design, and VFX professionals.

                          Besides excellent, industry-standard (with good reason) individual programs, the integration between them is unmatched. Among other things, I can edit a composition on After Effects and it automatically updates Premiere without any extra render necessary. The same is true of Photoshop and Audition. That is HUGE. And Adobe Media Encoder is, without a doubt, the best and more comprehensive video encoding software on the market.

                          They are also super proprietary and annoying as hell, but they would probably be dominant in any model.

                          1. [6]
                            Akir
                            Link Parent
                            You are vastly overrating them. Adobe isn't the standard; they are a standard and that is a huge difference. There's a reason why I said that the most important thing is the end product. If you...

                            You are vastly overrating them. Adobe isn't the standard; they are a standard and that is a huge difference. There's a reason why I said that the most important thing is the end product. If you can't make a good product by yourself, It's certainly not because you didn't pay the Adobe gods. The things you think they are kingpins in actually have a huge amount of competition in the commercial segment alone. For photography, there is Affinity Photo, Capture One, and PaintShop Pro / AfterShot Pro. And for video there are far more competitors - Avid, DaVinci Resolve, and Final Cut are all competing in the same arena. And those are just the three of each that are on the top of my head.

                            Interoperability like that is really important in video, but it's not needed at scale, and that's why people are more than willing to replace Adobe's tools when outside massive projects. Lightroom is a particularly notable failure for Adobe; people are still buying it because they have that much momentum (mostly because it's bundled with Photoshop), but photographers have long complained about it's shortcomings. Lightroom is so bad that Adobe at one point decided they were going to rewrite it. But then they released it early, so the new Lightroom didn't have all the features and was generally incompatible with Lightroom classic. Today, years later, they don't have one good full-featured batch photo editor, they have two buggy and/or incomplete batch photo editors.

                            Other specific tools have also fallen from grace. There are many alternative options for Illustrator, for instance. And even though there isn't a lot of competition in the 2D computer animation space, Flash is no longer the favorite; many studios are using tools like Toon Boom Harmony. But these are all outside my area of expertise.

                            I can't even begin to comment on what you said about Adobe Media Encoder. I'm not in that industry right now, so I can't tell you what professionals think about it. If you are talking about it being the best, that's honestly far too big of a topic, and we'd be straying too far away from the original. What I can tell you is that I highly doubt that is is the best video encoder. For H.264, x264 is generally considered to offer the best quality. I actually tried googling to find comparisons since none of them ever seem to bother with Adobe and the only one I could find was this extremely subjective comparison. And as far as comprehensiveness goes, FFMPEG beats every other alternative by miles.

                            5 votes
                            1. [5]
                              mrbig
                              (edited )
                              Link Parent
                              Your answer may be technically correct but is not informed by practice. This is enough to tell me you're coming from a technical/technological background. This is not about that target audience....

                              Your answer may be technically correct but is not informed by practice.

                              FFMPEG beats every other alternative by miles

                              This is enough to tell me you're coming from a technical/technological background. This is not about that target audience.

                              Odd cases do exist, but if you tell the average video editor to use the command line they'll laugh in your face. You can send videos to Media Encoder using one of its numerous widely accepted presets directly from Premiere and get on with your life.

                              1. [4]
                                Akir
                                Link Parent
                                I do professional photography in my current job and I was previously an apprentice with a freelance video producer. I know what I'm talking about. And I'm extremely insulted that you just skimmed...

                                I do professional photography in my current job and I was previously an apprentice with a freelance video producer. I know what I'm talking about. And I'm extremely insulted that you just skimmed through everything I said and dismissed everything, especially since I took the extra time to try to find out how accurate your completely unsubstantated statement about the quality of Adobe's Media Encoder was.

                                5 votes
                                1. [3]
                                  mrbig
                                  (edited )
                                  Link Parent
                                  Sometimes I post more than one answer to the same comment, especially when they are long. I probably will do that here. Even so, everyone has different priorities and time constraints and it is...

                                  Sometimes I post more than one answer to the same comment, especially when they are long. I probably will do that here.

                                  Even so, everyone has different priorities and time constraints and it is not always possible to give a timely and long answer to a long comment. This does not mean that I necessarily "skimmed" your comment. I don't know how you can establish that. I merely gave a general impression and directly addressed a small portion of it. I'm sorry if you feel that is insufficient.

                                  1. [2]
                                    Akir
                                    Link Parent
                                    If you don't have the time to address what I have to say, then don't reply and I will completely understand. When you only respond to a small part of a larger message it makes it appear that you...

                                    If you don't have the time to address what I have to say, then don't reply and I will completely understand. When you only respond to a small part of a larger message it makes it appear that you don't care about anything else I had to say and are just trying to get the last word in, especially when it's a negative comment.

                                    When you are responding to a conversation, it is normal to either agree, disagree, or offer a different perspective. But you completely ignored most of what I wrote and that seemingly earnest dismissiveness is more offensive to me than people who are actively trying to troll.

                                    3 votes
                                    1. mrbig
                                      Link Parent
                                      I understand. Sorry about that.

                                      I understand. Sorry about that.

                                      2 votes
                    2. [4]
                      Akir
                      Link Parent
                      It's because they don't sell monthly subscriptions, they sell "annual subscriptions billed monthly". Because nothing demonstrates the flexibility of a subscription service more than one year...

                      It's because they don't sell monthly subscriptions, they sell "annual subscriptions billed monthly".

                      Because nothing demonstrates the flexibility of a subscription service more than one year minimum contracts.

                      1. [3]
                        cfabbro
                        (edited )
                        Link Parent
                        Sure, I understand it was a yearly sub payed monthly, and so them charging me the remaining fees for the months I had left, that I agreed to pay beforehand, is totally understandable... but them...

                        Sure, I understand it was a yearly sub payed monthly, and so them charging me the remaining fees for the months I had left, that I agreed to pay beforehand, is totally understandable... but them charging me an additional $50 extra on top of that is fucking ridiculous. It's greedy AF and makes me never want to give them another dime, despite being a customer of theirs for decades.

                        1 vote
                        1. [2]
                          mrbig
                          (edited )
                          Link Parent
                          I canceled annually paid services before, and more than once they reimbursed me for the remaining months I would not use without any extra charge. I suppose they're not obligated to do that, but...

                          I canceled annually paid services before, and more than once they reimbursed me for the remaining months I would not use without any extra charge.

                          I suppose they're not obligated to do that, but it makes sense and is a nice way to treat customers. Adobe could do the same.

                          1 vote
                          1. cfabbro
                            (edited )
                            Link Parent
                            Yeah, they could, and if they had I likely would have gone back to CC again at some point too, so it makes sense from a customer retention perspective for them to do that. And I'm sure I could...

                            Yeah, they could, and if they had I likely would have gone back to CC again at some point too, so it makes sense from a customer retention perspective for them to do that. And I'm sure I could have contacted support, disputed the charge, and they might have given me a refund... but I figured if they want the $50 that badly they can have it. It will just be the last they ever get from me though.

                            2 votes
              2. [3]
                tindall
                Link Parent
                Yeah, that's a huge problem. I have never experienced that but I definitely see how that makes it impossible to use for you!

                With KDEnlive, for example, it crashes 100% of the times I try to import an audio file, making it virtually impossible to work.

                Yeah, that's a huge problem. I have never experienced that but I definitely see how that makes it impossible to use for you!

                1 vote
                1. [2]
                  mrbig
                  Link Parent
                  It actually happened: with different audio files, in different formats with different KDEnlive versions in different distributions And filling bug for it was FAR from trivial.

                  It actually happened:

                  • with different audio files, in different formats
                  • with different KDEnlive versions
                  • in different distributions

                  And filling bug for it was FAR from trivial.

                  1. tindall
                    Link Parent
                    I believe you, I promise. I'm not trying to argue with you here.

                    I believe you, I promise. I'm not trying to argue with you here.

                    3 votes
  3. [10]
    pseudolobster
    Link
    I don't disagree with anything here. Nothing really compares to the integration between Premiere and AfterEffects. DaVinci Resolve is full-featured professional software, but I've never run it on...

    I don't disagree with anything here. Nothing really compares to the integration between Premiere and AfterEffects. DaVinci Resolve is full-featured professional software, but I've never run it on Linux, and I recall having problems installing it even on Windows, where for some reason it couldn't detect my GPU and wouldn't run without hardware acceleration. I suppose if you pay, that's what their service contract covers, but still.

    One thing I didn't see you mention though is Lightworks, which is another professional-grade NLE for linux. I can't imagine it'll beat the windows experience, but it's one more thing to try.

    4 votes
    1. [9]
      mrbig
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I did try Lightworks. I do not consider it professional-grade, but I understand others can have different opinions. I mean, I suppose professionals CAN use, but I just never saw anyone doing. It...

      I did try Lightworks. I do not consider it professional-grade, but I understand others can have different opinions.

      I mean, I suppose professionals CAN use, but I just never saw anyone doing. It was very unstable anyway.

      And I dislike its timeline metaphor. It seems like every program want's to innovate when it comes to that and this is just tiresome.

      1. [8]
        pseudolobster
        Link Parent
        Apparently professionals do use it, and it's been used to edit a lot of very popular movies, including Pulp Fiction and Wolf of Wall Street:...

        Apparently professionals do use it, and it's been used to edit a lot of very popular movies, including Pulp Fiction and Wolf of Wall Street:

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lightworks#Use_in_films_and_TV_series

        And apparently it won a primetime emmy award in 2017 which I find odd:

        https://www.editshare.com/news/pr-emmy-award

        Personally I have no horse in this race. I'm not a videographer, and can't say what's good or bad about it. I just do know it's somewhat widely used in industry.

        As for their "innovation" they started in 1989 and basically invented nonlinear video editing. They've been using that terminology for 31 years, so I think they get a pass. Lightworks had been on the market 15 years before Premiere, Resolve, or Final Cut existed. It's older than Amiga Video Toaster. The only NLE I can think of that's been around that long is Avid Media Composer.

        2 votes
        1. [6]
          mrbig
          Link Parent
          The problem is that something like Premiere does a lot more, and has great integration with the Adobe pack, so it makes sense both to large studios and individual professionals. Lightworks...

          The problem is that something like Premiere does a lot more, and has great integration with the Adobe pack, so it makes sense both to large studios and individual professionals. Lightworks probably make more sense for studios because they have more specialized professionals, so an individual tool that does just the editing makes more sense. Besides, with beefier machines, exporting to other programs to ingest is a breeze... if I just have a single PC or Mac, avoiding internal rendering at all costs makes more sense and that's what Adobe provides.

          In sum: individuals usually have terribly shorter deadlines, less structure and rendering power.

          Even so: the majority, including studios, still uses Adobe and Apple.

          1. [4]
            tindall
            Link Parent
            One thing about this thread that I've noticed is that there's a mismatch between what you're discussing and what other people are. You're mentioning problems that you personally have, and...

            One thing about this thread that I've noticed is that there's a mismatch between what you're discussing and what other people are. You're mentioning problems that you personally have, and generalizing those problems to everyone else. I think pseudolobster wasn't trying to tell you that Lightworks was necessarily a good option for you, after you'd said it wasn't, but rather was responding to your assertion that it doesn't count as "professional-grade".

            3 votes
            1. [2]
              Deimos
              Link Parent
              If I remember correctly, mrbig also requested help fairly recently with picking out low-budget computer hardware, so I'd guess he's probably not trying to run these programs on anything even...

              If I remember correctly, mrbig also requested help fairly recently with picking out low-budget computer hardware, so I'd guess he's probably not trying to run these programs on anything even slightly comparable to the hardware that major studios give their editors.

              A lot of the complaints about crashing and instability could easily be related to trying to use hardware that's far weaker than the "typical" user of professional editing software.

              2 votes
              1. mrbig
                (edited )
                Link Parent
                I ended up picking up a computer that, while far from beefy - from a gamerz point of view - is more than capable of running these programs. I’ve run Premiere on weaker machines anyway.

                I ended up picking up a computer that, while far from beefy - from a gamerz point of view - is more than capable of running these programs.

                I’ve run Premiere on weaker machines anyway.

          2. mrbig
            Link Parent
            I did not mean I dislike the timeline metaphor, I dislike in iteration on the current version.

            I did not mean I dislike the timeline metaphor, I dislike in iteration on the current version.

        2. mrbig
          Link Parent
          But Lightworks probably works better on Windows and Mac. I did not have luck on Linux.

          But Lightworks probably works better on Windows and Mac. I did not have luck on Linux.

  4. [3]
    reese
    Link
    I edit videos occasionally, and not professionally, on Linux. You mentioned OpenShot. It works wonders for my purposes, but I'm not surprised by your experience. If I were doing more video...

    I edit videos occasionally, and not professionally, on Linux. You mentioned OpenShot. It works wonders for my purposes, but I'm not surprised by your experience. If I were doing more video editing, or 2D animation like I used to, I would probably just dual-boot with Windows. Not a fan, but I'm also not a hard-lining anti-proprietary software person. You need your tools to work.

    3 votes
    1. [2]
      mrbig
      (edited )
      Link Parent
      I tried OpenShot. Crashes as the eye can see. But the way I test these programs probably stretches them quite a bit. It's probably fine for home videos. I'd argue that, if one's seriously pursuing...

      I tried OpenShot. Crashes as the eye can see. But the way I test these programs probably stretches them quite a bit. It's probably fine for home videos.

      I'd argue that, if one's seriously pursuing something that requires heavy, professional-grade video editing, the only choice is between using proprietary software or not doing a good job at all.

      Unless for a gifted programmer/editor with a very unique workflow.

      You could also do it if you didn't have a deadline. With enough time, I suppose you could edit a feature-film on any platform.

      1 vote
      1. crdpa
        Link Parent
        I think the Madagascar movies are made entirely on Linux.

        I think the Madagascar movies are made entirely on Linux.

  5. [7]
    joplin
    Link
    Well you're not alone. A few years ago Disney did a presentation at SIGGRAPH where they discussed the tools they use. They use a lot of custom rendering software written for Linux and they really...

    Well you're not alone. A few years ago Disney did a presentation at SIGGRAPH where they discussed the tools they use. They use a lot of custom rendering software written for Linux and they really really wanted to be able to switch to Gimp from Photoshop because the licenses (subscriptions, whatever) were so expensive. They tried it and decided it was better to just pay for Photoshop, it was that bad.

    3 votes
    1. [5]
      Akir
      Link Parent
      Source please. I can understand why a big company like Disney would have problems integrating GIMP into their workflows; Adobe spends a lot of money to make sure their software stays as a de-facto...

      Source please.

      I can understand why a big company like Disney would have problems integrating GIMP into their workflows; Adobe spends a lot of money to make sure their software stays as a de-facto standard. It's going to cost more to train people to use new tools than it does to simply pay for the tools they already know.

      3 votes
      1. [4]
        mrbig
        Link Parent
        Possibly. But Adobe licenses are expensive. Maybe they did the math.

        It's going to cost more to train people to use new tools than it does to simply pay for the tools they already know.

        Possibly. But Adobe licenses are expensive. Maybe they did the math.

        1. [3]
          Akir
          Link Parent
          That's why I wanted the source; there's always more to the story.

          That's why I wanted the source; there's always more to the story.

          1 vote
          1. [2]
            mrbig
            Link Parent
            I tried searching but there are too many results. @joplin, just a year would be helpful.

            I tried searching but there are too many results. @joplin, just a year would be helpful.

            1. joplin
              Link Parent
              Oh man, I go frequently, so don't remember off the top of my head. Looking at my notes, I've attended in 2011, 2013, 2015, and 2019. I attended earlier conferences, too, but I suspect it was in...

              Oh man, I go frequently, so don't remember off the top of my head. Looking at my notes, I've attended in 2011, 2013, 2015, and 2019. I attended earlier conferences, too, but I suspect it was in one of those 4. I don't recall the focus of the talk, whether it was specifically about using Open Source or whether it was just generally about their rendering pipeline. Sorry I don't have more specifics, but that story really stuck in my mind.

              2 votes
  6. [2]
    Wes
    Link
    I found Resolve pretty crashy on Windows too, actually. But those issues aside, it seemed like really great software. I'd definitely like to try it out on Linux as well.

    I found Resolve pretty crashy on Windows too, actually. But those issues aside, it seemed like really great software. I'd definitely like to try it out on Linux as well.

    1 vote
    1. mrbig
      Link Parent
      I did. Crashy and very hard to install.

      I did. Crashy and very hard to install.

  7. crdpa
    (edited )
    Link
    There are a lot of people and studios who use Krita and Blender professionally. There are some tools who are used professionally in Linux, there are others on Mac and others on Windows. I think...

    There are a lot of people and studios who use Krita and Blender professionally.

    There are some tools who are used professionally in Linux, there are others on Mac and others on Windows. I think each system has more focus on some kind of tools.

    Linux is made by geeks so naturally it's where it shines.

    Professional (and paid) software are made to make a profit and there is no profit in making video editing software for Linux. It's the same with games.

    1 vote