it's gotta be so fucking surreal to just watch a nearly 900 year old staple of your city burn the fuck down and there be basically nothing you can do about it, especially given the beatings the...
it's gotta be so fucking surreal to just watch a nearly 900 year old staple of your city burn the fuck down and there be basically nothing you can do about it, especially given the beatings the notre dame has previously taken.
The moment the spire collapsed Another shot Most of the frame is on fire due to the spire falling in, the building is probably beyond saving at this point unless a ton of money is spent restoring...
Most of the frame is on fire due to the spire falling in, the building is probably beyond saving at this point unless a ton of money is spent restoring it (and if they do, is it really the same building?)
Not exactly, but it would still be Notre-Dame. I see this sentiment get thrown around a lot, and it often acts like the historical structures are static from the day they are finished to the...
and if they do, is it really the same building?
Not exactly, but it would still be Notre-Dame. I see this sentiment get thrown around a lot, and it often acts like the historical structures are static from the day they are finished to the 1900s. Notre-Dame under went heavy restorations in the 1800s, including replacement glass and sculptures (sometimes even with new designs meant to fit).
This tragedy might be the worse thing to happen to Notre-Dame, but it is only the end if it isn't repaired.
well, in fairness, the previous restoration work was just restoration work even though the notre dame got repeatedly trashed; this by comparison looks like at minimum a partial loss of the...
This tragedy might be the worse thing to happen to Notre-Dame, but it is only the end if it isn't repaired.
well, in fairness, the previous restoration work was just restoration work even though the notre dame got repeatedly trashed; this by comparison looks like at minimum a partial loss of the structure, which is going to be almost impossible to really fix on a structure that old and with that much damage without significantly changing it.
edit: also, culturally, it's probably just not going to be the same even if it is rebuilt. you just can't replace some things.
In my mind it doesn't have to be the same. A restored Notre-Dame can still be a valuable and important building without being exactly the same as it was before. Then again, just having a memorial...
In my mind it doesn't have to be the same. A restored Notre-Dame can still be a valuable and important building without being exactly the same as it was before. Then again, just having a memorial or even nothing there instead could be equally important, so I suppose it all depends on how the people of France feel about it.
The best answer I can think of to the ship of Theseus is "as long as people remember it as such". It's a loss, but I refuse to see it as anything but a building with history. As long as it stands,...
The best answer I can think of to the ship of Theseus is "as long as people remember it as such".
It's a loss, but I refuse to see it as anything but a building with history. As long as it stands, it will still be the Notre-Dame. It's painful to see something so permanent change on a whim, but the icon that it is can't change unless we fight the meaningful response to accept the change.
This is a horrible loss of culture, and I hope they're able to rebuild what is lost. On the other hand - it's interesting that we have this captured on camera. I think about how many ruins there...
This is a horrible loss of culture, and I hope they're able to rebuild what is lost.
On the other hand - it's interesting that we have this captured on camera. I think about how many ruins there are in the world, where all we know about their collapse is heresay at best. This is like watching the Colosseum decay or the library of Alexandria burn.
Edit: They say the structure has been saved. It's not over yet. Just a surprise opportunity to fire-proof an old building.
It was very fascinating watching the whole thing develop on social media too. I just happened to be checking twitter when the first images emerged. It was still pretty small and looked like the...
it's interesting that we have this captured on camera.
It was very fascinating watching the whole thing develop on social media too.
I just happened to be checking twitter when the first images emerged. It was still pretty small and looked like the damage would be localized. Then, as time goes on, you keep seeing more pictures of it getting bigger and bigger.
It's not often you see a seemingly small event slowly turn into a huge story. Usually the worst news is made clear right away.
I also think the reconstruction process is going to be incredibly fascinating. That must be one of the most photographed and documented buildings on the planet. Every detail of it has a reference that we can use to rebuild. That will help tremendously.
It's going to be really cool seeing modern technology used to recreate something that was centuries old.
I'm French. Not a Christian, not that it matters. The news was shocking. I was on the train in Brussels and showed the pictures to my seat-neighbours, it stings everyone. It's weird, I'm not...
I'm French. Not a Christian, not that it matters. The news was shocking. I was on the train in Brussels and showed the pictures to my seat-neighbours, it stings everyone.
It's weird, I'm not materialistic, I only saw Notre-Dame once, and us French are generally very anti-patriotism (the opposite of the hyperpatriotism you see in the US). Still, I … feel a sense of loss. Like mourning a celebrity you've never talked to but still felt a "connection" to.
Translation of the tweet for non francophones. What does he mean by a "national subscription"? Sounds like a gofundme.
Translation of the tweet for non francophones.
This Notre-Dame cathedral, we will rebuild it. All together. It's part of our French destiny. I commit myself: tomorrow a national subscription will be launched, and well beyond our borders.
What does he mean by a "national subscription"? Sounds like a gofundme.
Wow, that's actually really cool. It's more than just a donation since you even get a return on your investment. Wish we had something like that in the US to encourage people to invest in public...
Wow, that's actually really cool. It's more than just a donation since you even get a return on your investment. Wish we had something like that in the US to encourage people to invest in public projects.
We will all sing La Marseillaise tonight. Off topic - I thought French citizens were historically known to be quite patriotic. I've been reading an Americans account of Paris during the Prussian...
We will all sing La Marseillaise tonight.
Off topic -
I thought French citizens were historically known to be quite patriotic. I've been reading an Americans account of Paris during the Prussian siege of Paris in 79', and wow were the French of that time eager for battle. History changes things.
There's a lot to unpack in French people's relationship with their country. And of course I can't speak for everyone; Parisians will often feel differently from southerners and/or northerners. But...
I thought French citizens were historically known to be quite patriotic.
There's a lot to unpack in French people's relationship with their country. And of course I can't speak for everyone; Parisians will often feel differently from southerners and/or northerners.
But in general, French people are proud of their French heritage, as well as the first to criticize their country and fellow citizen. "Patriotism" is a dirty word for us. And in fact, a non-insignificant amount of people (myself included) feel uneasy about the Marseillaise, which is a war chant.
When people ask where I'm from, I usually say I'm European. I am French (born in France, with sole French citizenship) and am comfortable with that, but that's not my "identity" so to say. As far as my identity is concerned, I'm European. In fact, I've lived more years in Europe outside of France than in France.
Whenever i see culture and historical buldings like this in blaze my eyes water. I hope they will be able to save as much of the critical infrastructure as possible so it wont collapse on itself....
Whenever i see culture and historical buldings like this in blaze my eyes water. I hope they will be able to save as much of the critical infrastructure as possible so it wont collapse on itself.
I have never visited Notre-Dame. There must be ton of art and history stored within that are at risk? What are the most important pieces?
I think initial reports are saying that a lot of art/artifacts from the treasury were able to be saved, as well as some exterior statues that were not on the cathedral because of the renovations.
I think initial reports are saying that a lot of art/artifacts from the treasury were able to be saved, as well as some exterior statues that were not on the cathedral because of the renovations.
Probably the single most important piece in that building is the crown of thorns Jesus wore when he was crucified. I believe it is usually kept in the basement, but they bring it out for the...
Probably the single most important piece in that building is the crown of thorns Jesus wore when he was crucified. I believe it is usually kept in the basement, but they bring it out for the Easter service. So who knows where it was during the fire.
This is heartbreaking to see, when was the last time that such a major world landmark was destroyed? I can't even think of a comparable event any time in recent history. The Associated Press has...
This is heartbreaking to see, when was the last time that such a major world landmark was destroyed? I can't even think of a comparable event any time in recent history.
Yeah the lack of attention to these things is sad. I would love a list of important historical sites of the Middle East past and present that also give a little info about them. They're just as...
Yeah the lack of attention to these things is sad. I would love a list of important historical sites of the Middle East past and present that also give a little info about them. They're just as cool and meaningful as the European ones but don't get the same amount off attention in the west.
to a western non-muslim, maybe. but just as a singular example, the great mosque of aleppo is a pretty significant site to a muslim (and some christians, actually), because it purportedly holds...
to a western non-muslim, maybe. but just as a singular example, the great mosque of aleppo is a pretty significant site to a muslim (and some christians, actually), because it purportedly holds the remains of zechariah, father of john the baptist. it was first built in literally the 700s and its current form was shaped around the same time as the notre dame was built, and it's also part of a world heritage site. there are literally over a thousand years of islamic culture embued in its walls.
you know, i'm not trying to be accusatory here but you're really coming off as chauvinistic in both senses of the word here. you are correct that age is only one facet--but in this case, we're...
you know, i'm not trying to be accusatory here but you're really coming off as chauvinistic in both senses of the word here. you are correct that age is only one facet--but in this case, we're talking a mosque that has been extant for literally 1,300 years and, until the syrian civil war, was quite intact and well preserved as a place of worship and as a significant place in the islamic faith. islam was only a few generations old when the buildings in the place that eventually became the great mosque of aleppo were first built. there aren't that many buildings which can make the claim to having such lengthy religious histories behind them--and this is to say nothing of the aforementioned significant place aspect in that it is supposedly the place where zechariah's remains are. maybe all of that means nothing to you as a non-muslim westerner--that's fine--but i'm going to guess that it probably does to the muslims of aleppo, syria, and probably the greater levant area in general, in the same way that the notre dame is significant to catholics around the world.
One of our official government accounts was actually throwing shade at Trump on Twitter: https://twitter.com/SecCivileFrance/status/1117874924268376064
One of our official government accounts was actually throwing shade at Trump on Twitter:
Hundreds of firemen of the Paris Fire Brigade are doing everything they can to bring the terrible #NotreDame fire under control. All means are being used, except for water-bombing aircrafts which, if used, could lead to the collapse of the entire structure of the cathedral.
I'll second, third, and twelfth the thought that this is absolutely tragic. Unfortunately reading between the lines of the NY Times article on the fire, it seems as though the cathedral was a...
I'll second, third, and twelfth the thought that this is absolutely tragic. Unfortunately reading between the lines of the NY Times article on the fire, it seems as though the cathedral was a disaster waiting to happen, insofar as there was no scenario in which a fire could be successfully fought within it. I suppose the downside to disasters waiting to happen is that sooner or later they do.
I hope they rebuild it, just as fine and grandly as can be managed. It won't be 900 years old to start, but someday it will be.
It's sad, but often times, tragedies like these are necessary in order to understand the dangers and make sure they never happen again. I'm sure very soon there will likely be meetings scheduled...
It's sad, but often times, tragedies like these are necessary in order to understand the dangers and make sure they never happen again. I'm sure very soon there will likely be meetings scheduled at every world heritage site to discuss prevention and response to disasters like this. They will figure out exactly what went wrong at Notre Dame, and learn from it. Maybe even rethink how to implement sprinkler or fire suppression systems, which Notre Dame clearly didn't have.
Unfortunately humans aren't wired to be very good at predicting disasters. But we are excellent at responding to them.
I hope they rebuild it, just as fine and grandly as can be managed.
They will. I have no doubt. There are troves of pictures and documents they can use that detail everything that was lost. It's one of the most studied and documented structures on the planet due to its religious, architectural, and cultural significance.
I am assuming it was suspended for being a fake official account. @notredameparis appears to be the real official Notre Dame Cathedral account, not the one you linked. p.s. I found a cache of the...
Account suspended
This account has been suspended. Learn more about why Twitter suspends accounts, or return to your timeline.
I am assuming it was suspended for being a fake official account. @notredameparis appears to be the real official Notre Dame Cathedral account, not the one you linked.
They'll have no problem getting whatever money they need to rebuild, without selling out naming rights. Just like the US had no problem getting the money to rebuild the World Trade Center. Which...
They'll have no problem getting whatever money they need to rebuild, without selling out naming rights. Just like the US had no problem getting the money to rebuild the World Trade Center. Which included a four billion dollar train station.
it's gotta be so fucking surreal to just watch a nearly 900 year old staple of your city burn the fuck down and there be basically nothing you can do about it, especially given the beatings the notre dame has previously taken.
The moment the spire collapsed
Another shot
Most of the frame is on fire due to the spire falling in, the building is probably beyond saving at this point unless a ton of money is spent restoring it (and if they do, is it really the same building?)
Not exactly, but it would still be Notre-Dame. I see this sentiment get thrown around a lot, and it often acts like the historical structures are static from the day they are finished to the 1900s. Notre-Dame under went heavy restorations in the 1800s, including replacement glass and sculptures (sometimes even with new designs meant to fit).
This tragedy might be the worse thing to happen to Notre-Dame, but it is only the end if it isn't repaired.
well, in fairness, the previous restoration work was just restoration work even though the notre dame got repeatedly trashed; this by comparison looks like at minimum a partial loss of the structure, which is going to be almost impossible to really fix on a structure that old and with that much damage without significantly changing it.
edit: also, culturally, it's probably just not going to be the same even if it is rebuilt. you just can't replace some things.
In my mind it doesn't have to be the same. A restored Notre-Dame can still be a valuable and important building without being exactly the same as it was before. Then again, just having a memorial or even nothing there instead could be equally important, so I suppose it all depends on how the people of France feel about it.
The best answer I can think of to the ship of Theseus is "as long as people remember it as such".
It's a loss, but I refuse to see it as anything but a building with history. As long as it stands, it will still be the Notre-Dame. It's painful to see something so permanent change on a whim, but the icon that it is can't change unless we fight the meaningful response to accept the change.
I think so. Here's a though experiment that's related.
This is a horrible loss of culture, and I hope they're able to rebuild what is lost.
On the other hand - it's interesting that we have this captured on camera. I think about how many ruins there are in the world, where all we know about their collapse is heresay at best. This is like watching the Colosseum decay or the library of Alexandria burn.
Edit: They say the structure has been saved. It's not over yet. Just a surprise opportunity to fire-proof an old building.
It was very fascinating watching the whole thing develop on social media too.
I just happened to be checking twitter when the first images emerged. It was still pretty small and looked like the damage would be localized. Then, as time goes on, you keep seeing more pictures of it getting bigger and bigger.
It's not often you see a seemingly small event slowly turn into a huge story. Usually the worst news is made clear right away.
I also think the reconstruction process is going to be incredibly fascinating. That must be one of the most photographed and documented buildings on the planet. Every detail of it has a reference that we can use to rebuild. That will help tremendously.
It's going to be really cool seeing modern technology used to recreate something that was centuries old.
I'm French. Not a Christian, not that it matters. The news was shocking. I was on the train in Brussels and showed the pictures to my seat-neighbours, it stings everyone.
It's weird, I'm not materialistic, I only saw Notre-Dame once, and us French are generally very anti-patriotism (the opposite of the hyperpatriotism you see in the US). Still, I … feel a sense of loss. Like mourning a celebrity you've never talked to but still felt a "connection" to.
As an aside, Macron may have his problems, but since the last US election I still feel blessed to be able to log on Twitter and see my president say sane and reassuring things on a day of tragedy.
Edit: Off-topic, but this news is the first one I get from Tildes before anywhere else on the web.
Translation of the tweet for non francophones.
What does he mean by a "national subscription"? Sounds like a gofundme.
https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Souscription
It means a national fund, fed by usually-tax-deductible donations.
Wow, that's actually really cool. It's more than just a donation since you even get a return on your investment. Wish we had something like that in the US to encourage people to invest in public projects.
We will all sing La Marseillaise tonight.
Off topic -
I thought French citizens were historically known to be quite patriotic. I've been reading an Americans account of Paris during the Prussian siege of Paris in 79', and wow were the French of that time eager for battle. History changes things.
There's a lot to unpack in French people's relationship with their country. And of course I can't speak for everyone; Parisians will often feel differently from southerners and/or northerners.
But in general, French people are proud of their French heritage, as well as the first to criticize their country and fellow citizen. "Patriotism" is a dirty word for us. And in fact, a non-insignificant amount of people (myself included) feel uneasy about the Marseillaise, which is a war chant.
When people ask where I'm from, I usually say I'm European. I am French (born in France, with sole French citizenship) and am comfortable with that, but that's not my "identity" so to say. As far as my identity is concerned, I'm European. In fact, I've lived more years in Europe outside of France than in France.
Whenever i see culture and historical buldings like this in blaze my eyes water. I hope they will be able to save as much of the critical infrastructure as possible so it wont collapse on itself.
I have never visited Notre-Dame. There must be ton of art and history stored within that are at risk? What are the most important pieces?
I think initial reports are saying that a lot of art/artifacts from the treasury were able to be saved, as well as some exterior statues that were not on the cathedral because of the renovations.
Probably the single most important piece in that building is the crown of thorns Jesus wore when he was crucified. I believe it is usually kept in the basement, but they bring it out for the Easter service. So who knows where it was during the fire.
those have been reportedly saved, thankfully.
and unfortunately, because politics is pervasive, cue gross conspiracies about the cause of the fire within an hour.
The HackerNews thread had at least one person blaming the fire on "the «refugees»". Wonder of wonders, they got downvoted, but... it's ridiculous.
Fuck them. The limelight shall not be theirs.
And of course Trump felt compelled to offer his trademark unsolicited shitty advice on something he knows absolutely nothing about.
This is heartbreaking to see, when was the last time that such a major world landmark was destroyed? I can't even think of a comparable event any time in recent history.
The Associated Press has live updates here. I see that Trump also weighed in with his special brand of diplomacy:
Yeah the lack of attention to these things is sad. I would love a list of important historical sites of the Middle East past and present that also give a little info about them. They're just as cool and meaningful as the European ones but don't get the same amount off attention in the west.
They aren't close to the same league as Notre Dame.
to a western non-muslim, maybe. but just as a singular example, the great mosque of aleppo is a pretty significant site to a muslim (and some christians, actually), because it purportedly holds the remains of zechariah, father of john the baptist. it was first built in literally the 700s and its current form was shaped around the same time as the notre dame was built, and it's also part of a world heritage site. there are literally over a thousand years of islamic culture embued in its walls.
Age is only 1 facet of how important something is.
you know, i'm not trying to be accusatory here but you're really coming off as chauvinistic in both senses of the word here. you are correct that age is only one facet--but in this case, we're talking a mosque that has been extant for literally 1,300 years and, until the syrian civil war, was quite intact and well preserved as a place of worship and as a significant place in the islamic faith. islam was only a few generations old when the buildings in the place that eventually became the great mosque of aleppo were first built. there aren't that many buildings which can make the claim to having such lengthy religious histories behind them--and this is to say nothing of the aforementioned significant place aspect in that it is supposedly the place where zechariah's remains are. maybe all of that means nothing to you as a non-muslim westerner--that's fine--but i'm going to guess that it probably does to the muslims of aleppo, syria, and probably the greater levant area in general, in the same way that the notre dame is significant to catholics around the world.
It's so sad the french fire department had to waste time shutting down this idea before people got upset at them.
Yeah, just dunk it with some huge pile of water from above, sounds good.
One of our official government accounts was actually throwing shade at Trump on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/SecCivileFrance/status/1117874924268376064
oh my god
I'll second, third, and twelfth the thought that this is absolutely tragic. Unfortunately reading between the lines of the NY Times article on the fire, it seems as though the cathedral was a disaster waiting to happen, insofar as there was no scenario in which a fire could be successfully fought within it. I suppose the downside to disasters waiting to happen is that sooner or later they do.
I hope they rebuild it, just as fine and grandly as can be managed. It won't be 900 years old to start, but someday it will be.
It's sad, but often times, tragedies like these are necessary in order to understand the dangers and make sure they never happen again. I'm sure very soon there will likely be meetings scheduled at every world heritage site to discuss prevention and response to disasters like this. They will figure out exactly what went wrong at Notre Dame, and learn from it. Maybe even rethink how to implement sprinkler or fire suppression systems, which Notre Dame clearly didn't have.
Unfortunately humans aren't wired to be very good at predicting disasters. But we are excellent at responding to them.
They will. I have no doubt. There are troves of pictures and documents they can use that detail everything that was lost. It's one of the most studied and documented structures on the planet due to its religious, architectural, and cultural significance.
We are witnessing world history. Wish I saw it while it was still up.
I am assuming it was suspended for being a fake official account. @notredameparis appears to be the real official Notre Dame Cathedral account, not the one you linked.
p.s. I found a cache of the tweet in question for those curious:
Sad to see.
I wonder what the rebuilding effort will look like. I have a feeling Paris will be getting a new cathedral in the next 20 years.
That would take an unimaginable amount of money. I can see it now: The Amazon Cathedral, with Windows by Microsoft!
They'll have no problem getting whatever money they need to rebuild, without selling out naming rights. Just like the US had no problem getting the money to rebuild the World Trade Center. Which included a four billion dollar train station.