TBH they should just roll them out now, they're fantastic. The annual energy use is so low that payback time for installing is under 3 years. I have mine in an attached garage. Sacrifice a bit of...
TBH they should just roll them out now, they're fantastic. The annual energy use is so low that payback time for installing is under 3 years.
I have mine in an attached garage. Sacrifice a bit of efficiency a few weeks when the garage temp drops below 40F, but it's virtually free hot water between mid-May and September, when the garage is hotter than the interior of the home.
Added bonus is that it dehumidifies the space a bit. If you have a basement with only a mild need for dehumidifier, one of these things could help a good bit. I never did test how much condensation it puts out a week......
Edit: Omg, I looked closer at the picture, that's my exact water heater. AMA
Seriously, if you own your home and have an electric (or even a gas) tank water heater, look into incentives from your electric or gas company. It well could be worth replacing your existing unit early, and for electric users I can promise you no less than halfing the amount of electricity your hot water heater uses.
Echoing all these comments. With my heat pump water heater in the basement, it's not as good as being in the garage. But the electricity use savings are shocking. My resistive would fire up at...
Echoing all these comments. With my heat pump water heater in the basement, it's not as good as being in the garage. But the electricity use savings are shocking. My resistive would fire up at 4500 watts, whereas the new one runs at 300 watts. It's hilarious, the electricity savings.
Correct. Think a window AC unit, except exhausting out the outside, it's exhausting into your water. The kicker is these things need about 80cuft of open air to work properly, they can't live in a...
Correct. Think a window AC unit, except exhausting out the outside, it's exhausting into your water.
The kicker is these things need about 80cuft of open air to work properly, they can't live in a closet. If in a closet, they should be ducted.
OOOH I get it, they just absorb heat from the ambient air in the house. I did some reading and got confused because people kept talking about how they don't work in lower temperatures, and my...
OOOH I get it, they just absorb heat from the ambient air in the house.
I did some reading and got confused because people kept talking about how they don't work in lower temperatures, and my brain went into AC mode and figured there was an outdoor unit.
Obviously that only matters if it's in a garage or crawlspace.
I would be curious your thoughts as an HVAC tech, because I was wondering how well a large one of these would work as part of a hydronic heating system. I've been contemplating putting in a...
I would be curious your thoughts as an HVAC tech, because I was wondering how well a large one of these would work as part of a hydronic heating system.
I've been contemplating putting in a recirculation loop anyway, and I'm betting it would be a great supplemental to the parts of my house that still rely on electric baseboards.
I presume it wouldn't be as good (or cost effective) as a minisplit system for primary heating. But sometimes the ReStore near me has used hydronic system components for cheap.
If they are installed in a basement, I wonder if they can be ducted into the HVAC loop on the first floor of the home, providing more cooling during the summer months? Could maybe even have a...
If they are installed in a basement, I wonder if they can be ducted into the HVAC loop on the first floor of the home, providing more cooling during the summer months? Could maybe even have a disconnect so that in the winter months it just takes basement air?
Although either way, I like the idea of having a built-in dehumidifier for the basement, since it's unfinished and occasionally gets some water.
I will say it's not strong enough to replace a proper dehumidifier if you're occassionally taking on water. But if you have a dehumidifier it will reduce the burden on it.
I will say it's not strong enough to replace a proper dehumidifier if you're occassionally taking on water. But if you have a dehumidifier it will reduce the burden on it.
Nothing mentioned in the article about my style of water heater, which is an on-demand electric heater with no tank. I really like this water heater, since my electric service plan gives me free...
Nothing mentioned in the article about my style of water heater, which is an on-demand electric heater with no tank. I really like this water heater, since my electric service plan gives me free electricity at night (8 pm to 6 am). I can schedule any use of hot water at night, and basically get it for no cost, other than the price of the water itself.
If my heater ever fails and I can't get another like it, I'll be pissed. Installing one of the heat pump water heaters is probably a lot more involved.
Wait, wait. You get FREE electricity at night? Where is that? Im in Alberta where the best rates are still around 0.38/kW and there are no time of day discounts.
Wait, wait. You get FREE electricity at night? Where is that?
Im in Alberta where the best rates are still around 0.38/kW and there are no time of day discounts.
I live in west Texas. The power company is called Green Mountain Energy, and yes, they have a few plans that give free electricity during the evening hours. For my bill in March, I averaged 6.8...
I live in west Texas. The power company is called Green Mountain Energy, and yes, they have a few plans that give free electricity during the evening hours.
For my bill in March, I averaged 6.8 cents per kilowatt hour, but it is one of the months where I use the least amount of electricity. I have a three-bedroom home, ranch style, and my bill for the month was $41.20.
Holy cow, I have a similar home and there's only 2 of us and my last bill was $258 and we're pretty frugal on power - stove and heat are gas. The truly goofy part is that the way our bills are...
Holy cow, I have a similar home and there's only 2 of us and my last bill was $258 and we're pretty frugal on power - stove and heat are gas. The truly goofy part is that the way our bills are structured, we only pay about 1/4 of the bill for actual usage, the other 3/4 is fees, transmission, distribution, administration, carbon tax, local taxes, anything they can think of.
So almost $200 of your bill is transmission fees and other random BS? That's wild... What part of the world are you in? At that kind of price I would start looking at doing a large solar, battery,...
So almost $200 of your bill is transmission fees and other random BS? That's wild...
What part of the world are you in? At that kind of price I would start looking at doing a large solar, battery, and backup generator setup and then disconnecting from the grid entirely.
Western Canada. Alberta specifically. Yeah, it's more than wild, its highly annoying. It used to be well regulated and then the gov took off the regulated rates and opened up the market to create...
Western Canada. Alberta specifically.
Yeah, it's more than wild, its highly annoying. It used to be well regulated and then the gov took off the regulated rates and opened up the market to create more 'competition' which supposedly would lower our prices. Nope. They just keep going up.
We actually have a small solar set up on our yard. Not enough to power the whole house though. But here's the really crappy part - even if you have enough battery capacity to go off grid, the electric utility will still charge you to have the power lines to your home. And from everything Ive researched you're not even allowed to fully disconnect.
But it would be a real problem to do so anyway - we live far north so in winter, with only about 8 hours of very low horizon sun, plus often enough snow to completely cover the panels, it would be very difficult to maintain power all winter without significant backup like a generator - which isn't very economical. Which you could do in the country but not in the city because of the noise. So we're kinda stuck with the system we have and ridiculously high power prices.
It's "free" in quotations. Nothing is free. They pay a higher rate during the day and the actuaries that created the plan know that overall they'll profit or break even by offering a plan with...
It's "free" in quotations. Nothing is free. They pay a higher rate during the day and the actuaries that created the plan know that overall they'll profit or break even by offering a plan with "free" nights.
Source: I also live in Texas, these plans have been around a long time, math.
Yes, you're right about them working out the math, but if you have discipline in your use of electricity, you can out-game them. They expect to make approximately 17-18 cents per kWh, but I have...
Yes, you're right about them working out the math, but if you have discipline in your use of electricity, you can out-game them. They expect to make approximately 17-18 cents per kWh, but I have never paid that much on this type of plan, even when using AC in the summer. I'm lucky to live in a very dry climate, so water-cooled AC is an option during the day, where I use only 1/4 of the electricity of my refrigerated AC unit. I only run the more expensive cooler at night, when the electricity is free.
Electricity markets are also very weird because of physics constraints. There are times of day that it would make economic sense to pay you to consume electricity so that the circuits have the...
Electricity markets are also very weird because of physics constraints. There are times of day that it would make economic sense to pay you to consume electricity so that the circuits have the correct amount of demand on them. I won't dispute that companies usually try to screw over customers, but in the case of electricity specifically, the variable pricing makes a lot of sense for everyone.
source: I took a class about electricity markets in college as an elective and remember a little bit of what was discussed. We used this book if anyone is interested in further reading.
Thats what I did, its not that bad unless you're severely constrained for space. It didn't need nearly as much power draw, so I did need an electrician (that the contractor baked in quote) to free...
Thats what I did, its not that bad unless you're severely constrained for space.
It didn't need nearly as much power draw, so I did need an electrician (that the contractor baked in quote) to free up some breakers and decomission the old 80A breakout.
What about those hot water heaters from Thailand or China? Example: https://mazuma.co.th/en/water-heater-mazuma-mainpage-en/ They are like $50~$200 USD. Instant hot water that doesn't run out....
They are like $50~$200 USD. Instant hot water that doesn't run out. I've used them a few times. It seems kinda bizarre to me that people have these huge water tanks in their homes
For electric anyhow, tanks better handle 'burst' flow. If your water pressure overrides the max flow rate of one of those, you'll get mostly-cold water. If you turn on a tap while the shower is...
For electric anyhow, tanks better handle 'burst' flow. If your water pressure overrides the max flow rate of one of those, you'll get mostly-cold water. If you turn on a tap while the shower is going (even with low-flow), water pressure will drop tremendously. I don't lose water pressure if somebody uses hot water elsewhere in the house.
Tanks are incredibly well-insulated. Especially with heat pumps, the slower you can afford to refill the tank, the more efficient it will be.
On-demand is more efficient if usage is low or sporadic; 1 person showers once a day in a 1 BR and wash their hands a few times, but you do your laundry at a laundromat and don't eat at home. We have 4 family members that stagger showers (2 morning, 2 evening), and are at home more often than not.
Starting in 2029, many electric water heaters on store shelves will have to use heat pump technology to comply with new energy efficiency standards released by the Department of Energy on Tuesday.
The change marks the Biden administration’s biggest step yet in setting appliance energy efficiency regulations, one that will save Americans billions of dollars per year on their power and water bills and slash household emissions.
…
Replacing common-sized traditional electric resistance storage water heaters — 40 or 50 gallon models — with electric heat pump models meeting the new standards would save many consumers about $170 a year. Over the life span of the appliance, that adds up to an average of about $1,800, according to the Energy Department.
…
Compliance with the water heater standards would result in half of the most commonly sized electric appliances switching to heat pump technology after 2029, the Energy Department said. Today, heat pump water heaters make up just 3 percent of the market.
…
The new rule would lead to a moderate increase in efficiency for other types of water heaters, including gas-fired, oil-fired and larger electric storage models. The Energy Department said it’s still considering standards for gas-fired instantaneous water heaters, which are not addressed by the final rule.
I installed one of these to replace an oil fired tank a couple years ago. I love it a lot, I do have a couple issues but it's probably just my high use application. My unit is on the opposite...
I installed one of these to replace an oil fired tank a couple years ago. I love it a lot, I do have a couple issues but it's probably just my high use application. My unit is on the opposite corner of the house from my bathrooms, so I have a circulator pump in between. Honestly it has been pretty expensive to run but still cheaper than oil. I have this installed in my basement in New England, finished basement. It actually makes my basement pretty cold all year round, something to consider if it's in a closet near a living space.
I believe I have the Rheem 80gal 220.
One thing I will say is there are some 110 models out there now that will make it very easy to install in an area where a gas or oil heater currently exists, this drops the barrier to install and cost a ton.
Oh yea if your basement is always cold that will definitely hurt a bit. It may-well be worthwhile for you to duct in some outside air directly to the unit whenever outside temps are higher,...
Oh yea if your basement is always cold that will definitely hurt a bit. It may-well be worthwhile for you to duct in some outside air directly to the unit whenever outside temps are higher, especially if you're using a lot.
As well as being high-use. They use regular electric elements if you're draining a lot frequently if not in "efficiency mode". It may well be worthwhile to install a second unit if you find yourself constantly draining the tank, I'd install that one closer to the bathrooms.
Yeah there are some good options for settings on the Rheem, I have it on the Energy Efficient setting. Before adding this I didn't hear my basement, and it stayed around 60F, after installing it's...
Yeah there are some good options for settings on the Rheem, I have it on the Energy Efficient setting. Before adding this I didn't hear my basement, and it stayed around 60F, after installing it's usually 8F lower all year around.
In a couple years I'm probably going to move it to the other side of the house in the utility area, which is under the bathrooms. This way I don't need the circulator pump.
I had one of these installed a few years back. I paid quite a premium as on paper it should have provided significant power savings. Honestly, it didn't live up to what I was told, not even close...
I had one of these installed a few years back. I paid quite a premium as on paper it should have provided significant power savings. Honestly, it didn't live up to what I was told, not even close on the cost savings. As my garage was fulled enclosed and finished, I had also expected to reap the benefits of the air conditioning that the unit provided since the garage didn't stay cool as well as the rest of the home as it wasn't insulated quite as well, but the cooling it provided wasn't very effective. I hope they have improved a lot and/or lowered in price, otherwise this feels like a gift to the industry rather than a boon for the efficiency.
Just venting but it annoys me to no end that these sorts of legislative changes go completely unnoticed by the general public. These changes appear to be a win/win, where both the consumer...
The water heater rule is the Biden administration’s latest update to appliance energy efficiency standards, which it estimates will have the greatest impact yet on Americans’ utility costs and household emissions. In February, for instance, the government announced new standards for washer and dryer efficiency, which it projected would save Americans up to $39 billion on their utility bills and eliminate 71 million tons of planet-warming carbon dioxide emissions — equivalent to the annual emissions of about 9 million homes — over 30 years.
Just venting but it annoys me to no end that these sorts of legislative changes go completely unnoticed by the general public. These changes appear to be a win/win, where both the consumer benefits (thanks to cheaper appliances and reduced energy bills) and the environment benefits (via reduced energy usage). Yet no one is going around putting 'I did that' stickers on your reduced energy bills like they did on gas stations a couple years back.
I Did That! is a phrase found on stickers typically picturing U.S. President Joe Biden pointing at the price of gasoline on fuel pumps in gas stations around the United States as a way to claim that he increased gas prices. The stickers have also been placed on empty store shelves.
/offtopic Hey just wanted to say thanks for always providing a mirror. I clicked on the link, saw the paywall, and immediately thought "let me go back a sec, I'm sure cfabbro posted a mirror" and...
/offtopic
Hey just wanted to say thanks for always providing a mirror. I clicked on the link, saw the paywall, and immediately thought "let me go back a sec, I'm sure cfabbro posted a mirror" and sure enough there it was. So thanks.
TBH they should just roll them out now, they're fantastic. The annual energy use is so low that payback time for installing is under 3 years.
I have mine in an attached garage. Sacrifice a bit of efficiency a few weeks when the garage temp drops below 40F, but it's virtually free hot water between mid-May and September, when the garage is hotter than the interior of the home.
Added bonus is that it dehumidifies the space a bit. If you have a basement with only a mild need for dehumidifier, one of these things could help a good bit. I never did test how much condensation it puts out a week......
Edit: Omg, I looked closer at the picture, that's my exact water heater. AMA
Seriously, if you own your home and have an electric (or even a gas) tank water heater, look into incentives from your electric or gas company. It well could be worth replacing your existing unit early, and for electric users I can promise you no less than halfing the amount of electricity your hot water heater uses.
More details from the company
Echoing all these comments. With my heat pump water heater in the basement, it's not as good as being in the garage. But the electricity use savings are shocking. My resistive would fire up at 4500 watts, whereas the new one runs at 300 watts. It's hilarious, the electricity savings.
As an HVAC tech, now I'm wondering if I'm gonna be learning how to work on hot water tanks, or if plumbers are gonna learn how to work on heat pumps.
They are self-contained, so plumbers can easily install.
There's no outdoor coil?
Correct. Think a window AC unit, except exhausting out the outside, it's exhausting into your water.
The kicker is these things need about 80cuft of open air to work properly, they can't live in a closet. If in a closet, they should be ducted.
OOOH I get it, they just absorb heat from the ambient air in the house.
I did some reading and got confused because people kept talking about how they don't work in lower temperatures, and my brain went into AC mode and figured there was an outdoor unit.
Obviously that only matters if it's in a garage or crawlspace.
I would be curious your thoughts as an HVAC tech, because I was wondering how well a large one of these would work as part of a hydronic heating system.
I've been contemplating putting in a recirculation loop anyway, and I'm betting it would be a great supplemental to the parts of my house that still rely on electric baseboards.
I presume it wouldn't be as good (or cost effective) as a minisplit system for primary heating. But sometimes the ReStore near me has used hydronic system components for cheap.
Sorry, I wouldn't know. We don't use hydronic heating where I live / work. Never even touched a boiler.
If they are installed in a basement, I wonder if they can be ducted into the HVAC loop on the first floor of the home, providing more cooling during the summer months? Could maybe even have a disconnect so that in the winter months it just takes basement air?
Although either way, I like the idea of having a built-in dehumidifier for the basement, since it's unfinished and occasionally gets some water.
I will say it's not strong enough to replace a proper dehumidifier if you're occassionally taking on water. But if you have a dehumidifier it will reduce the burden on it.
Technology Connections video on these: https://youtu.be/zheQKmAT_a0?t=298
Saw the title and wondering “when will Technology Connections do a video on this”. Great to see he already has!
Nothing mentioned in the article about my style of water heater, which is an on-demand electric heater with no tank. I really like this water heater, since my electric service plan gives me free electricity at night (8 pm to 6 am). I can schedule any use of hot water at night, and basically get it for no cost, other than the price of the water itself.
If my heater ever fails and I can't get another like it, I'll be pissed. Installing one of the heat pump water heaters is probably a lot more involved.
Wait, wait. You get FREE electricity at night? Where is that?
Im in Alberta where the best rates are still around 0.38/kW and there are no time of day discounts.
I live in west Texas. The power company is called Green Mountain Energy, and yes, they have a few plans that give free electricity during the evening hours.
For my bill in March, I averaged 6.8 cents per kilowatt hour, but it is one of the months where I use the least amount of electricity. I have a three-bedroom home, ranch style, and my bill for the month was $41.20.
Holy cow, I have a similar home and there's only 2 of us and my last bill was $258 and we're pretty frugal on power - stove and heat are gas. The truly goofy part is that the way our bills are structured, we only pay about 1/4 of the bill for actual usage, the other 3/4 is fees, transmission, distribution, administration, carbon tax, local taxes, anything they can think of.
So almost $200 of your bill is transmission fees and other random BS? That's wild...
What part of the world are you in? At that kind of price I would start looking at doing a large solar, battery, and backup generator setup and then disconnecting from the grid entirely.
I’m pretty sure gowest is in Alberta, Canada.
Western Canada. Alberta specifically.
Yeah, it's more than wild, its highly annoying. It used to be well regulated and then the gov took off the regulated rates and opened up the market to create more 'competition' which supposedly would lower our prices. Nope. They just keep going up.
We actually have a small solar set up on our yard. Not enough to power the whole house though. But here's the really crappy part - even if you have enough battery capacity to go off grid, the electric utility will still charge you to have the power lines to your home. And from everything Ive researched you're not even allowed to fully disconnect.
But it would be a real problem to do so anyway - we live far north so in winter, with only about 8 hours of very low horizon sun, plus often enough snow to completely cover the panels, it would be very difficult to maintain power all winter without significant backup like a generator - which isn't very economical. Which you could do in the country but not in the city because of the noise. So we're kinda stuck with the system we have and ridiculously high power prices.
It's "free" in quotations. Nothing is free. They pay a higher rate during the day and the actuaries that created the plan know that overall they'll profit or break even by offering a plan with "free" nights.
Source: I also live in Texas, these plans have been around a long time, math.
Yes, you're right about them working out the math, but if you have discipline in your use of electricity, you can out-game them. They expect to make approximately 17-18 cents per kWh, but I have never paid that much on this type of plan, even when using AC in the summer. I'm lucky to live in a very dry climate, so water-cooled AC is an option during the day, where I use only 1/4 of the electricity of my refrigerated AC unit. I only run the more expensive cooler at night, when the electricity is free.
Electricity markets are also very weird because of physics constraints. There are times of day that it would make economic sense to pay you to consume electricity so that the circuits have the correct amount of demand on them. I won't dispute that companies usually try to screw over customers, but in the case of electricity specifically, the variable pricing makes a lot of sense for everyone.
source: I took a class about electricity markets in college as an elective and remember a little bit of what was discussed. We used this book if anyone is interested in further reading.
Thats what I did, its not that bad unless you're severely constrained for space.
It didn't need nearly as much power draw, so I did need an electrician (that the contractor baked in quote) to free up some breakers and decomission the old 80A breakout.
What about those hot water heaters from Thailand or China? Example: https://mazuma.co.th/en/water-heater-mazuma-mainpage-en/
They are like $50~$200 USD. Instant hot water that doesn't run out. I've used them a few times. It seems kinda bizarre to me that people have these huge water tanks in their homes
For electric anyhow, tanks better handle 'burst' flow. If your water pressure overrides the max flow rate of one of those, you'll get mostly-cold water. If you turn on a tap while the shower is going (even with low-flow), water pressure will drop tremendously. I don't lose water pressure if somebody uses hot water elsewhere in the house.
Tanks are incredibly well-insulated. Especially with heat pumps, the slower you can afford to refill the tank, the more efficient it will be.
On-demand is more efficient if usage is low or sporadic; 1 person showers once a day in a 1 BR and wash their hands a few times, but you do your laundry at a laundromat and don't eat at home. We have 4 family members that stagger showers (2 morning, 2 evening), and are at home more often than not.
FWIW, that thing draws 3.5kw when on. That's about the same as my minisplit system that covers 1500sqft. Some of the heat pump heaters in question can plug in a standard 120V outlet.
Also you're not gonna legally be able to import and install one of those unless they've passed US testing for building regulations.
From the article:
…
…
…
I installed one of these to replace an oil fired tank a couple years ago. I love it a lot, I do have a couple issues but it's probably just my high use application. My unit is on the opposite corner of the house from my bathrooms, so I have a circulator pump in between. Honestly it has been pretty expensive to run but still cheaper than oil. I have this installed in my basement in New England, finished basement. It actually makes my basement pretty cold all year round, something to consider if it's in a closet near a living space.
I believe I have the Rheem 80gal 220.
One thing I will say is there are some 110 models out there now that will make it very easy to install in an area where a gas or oil heater currently exists, this drops the barrier to install and cost a ton.
Oh yea if your basement is always cold that will definitely hurt a bit. It may-well be worthwhile for you to duct in some outside air directly to the unit whenever outside temps are higher, especially if you're using a lot.
As well as being high-use. They use regular electric elements if you're draining a lot frequently if not in "efficiency mode". It may well be worthwhile to install a second unit if you find yourself constantly draining the tank, I'd install that one closer to the bathrooms.
Yeah there are some good options for settings on the Rheem, I have it on the Energy Efficient setting. Before adding this I didn't hear my basement, and it stayed around 60F, after installing it's usually 8F lower all year around.
In a couple years I'm probably going to move it to the other side of the house in the utility area, which is under the bathrooms. This way I don't need the circulator pump.
I had one of these installed a few years back. I paid quite a premium as on paper it should have provided significant power savings. Honestly, it didn't live up to what I was told, not even close on the cost savings. As my garage was fulled enclosed and finished, I had also expected to reap the benefits of the air conditioning that the unit provided since the garage didn't stay cool as well as the rest of the home as it wasn't insulated quite as well, but the cooling it provided wasn't very effective. I hope they have improved a lot and/or lowered in price, otherwise this feels like a gift to the industry rather than a boon for the efficiency.
Just venting but it annoys me to no end that these sorts of legislative changes go completely unnoticed by the general public. These changes appear to be a win/win, where both the consumer benefits (thanks to cheaper appliances and reduced energy bills) and the environment benefits (via reduced energy usage). Yet no one is going around putting 'I did that' stickers on your reduced energy bills like they did on gas stations a couple years back.
What’s this about stickers?
I Did That!
Mirror, for those hit by the paywall:
https://archive.ph/4Yvz1
/offtopic
Hey just wanted to say thanks for always providing a mirror. I clicked on the link, saw the paywall, and immediately thought "let me go back a sec, I'm sure cfabbro posted a mirror" and sure enough there it was. So thanks.
YVW! :)