SNCF Réseau manages nearly 28,000 km of rail line in France. That is a lot of cleared land available for solar that they are mostly not using at any given point in time. By my rough calculations,...
SNCF Réseau manages nearly 28,000 km of rail line in France. That is a lot of cleared land available for solar that they are mostly not using at any given point in time. By my rough calculations, that would be about 40 square kilometers assuming 1.435 m between rails. No idea how much of that would be usable for this project, but that would surely cost tens of millions of dollars just to acquire that much land?
Below the article it looks like it says they estimates their 100km test strip will produce 16MWh per year. That works out to 4.48GWh of electricity produced by SNCF in France.
Below the article it looks like it says they estimates their 100km test strip will produce 16MWh per year. That works out to 4.48GWh of electricity produced by SNCF in France.
I suspect the answer might be "physics". They've supposedly already clocked they need to keep an eye on maintenance. There's a LOT of energy going over those tracks/across those ties, and I...
I suspect the answer might be "physics". They've supposedly already clocked they need to keep an eye on maintenance. There's a LOT of energy going over those tracks/across those ties, and I assumed they've accounted for some amount of flex and damage, but I'm not sure I can see this working.
Just off the top of my head, ignoring the flex, a single train dragging ANYTHING will destroy a huge swath of panels, and I assume it's sorta the same if it kicks up any sort of debris? It doesn't need to be something large either. Just some tree branch or something that a train can easily plow through but then gets caught under one of the cars and is now plowing through every panel?
Suppose it's possible that's less common/easier to handle than my instincts, but i'm skeptical this works out. It at least looks better thought out than solar roads.
Yeah I’m glad they’re doing a pilot because I think we should try stuff, even if they fail. But at a glance this seems like a non-viable idea for many of the same reasons as solar freaking...
Yeah I’m glad they’re doing a pilot because I think we should try stuff, even if they fail. But at a glance this seems like a non-viable idea for many of the same reasons as solar freaking roadways.
A more viable solution would be to just put up sheds with solar panels on them over a bunch of large surface parking lots and maybe solar panel awnings for windows.
I mean, a train going 100-300 km/h dragging something would already be "very bad" for the track infrastructure. The difference between this an solar roads would be that the wheels aren't in...
I mean, a train going 100-300 km/h dragging something would already be "very bad" for the track infrastructure.
The difference between this an solar roads would be that the wheels aren't in contact with the solar surface. Yes there's flex between ties, but they're panels, there's going to be flex between them. I'd wonder a bit about dust / debris settling on them, but on any busy track a fast train going by is a fair bit of air pressure to dislodge stuff.
I'm sure SNCF owns some parking garages..... but why not try this too? Acres of surface lots aren't as much of a thing in France as they are in the US.
At first I thought they meant to use the space on the side of each track (in the countryside, there usually about 5 meter of buffer space until the fence), so probably clever, maybe even use the...
At first I thought they meant to use the space on the side of each track (in the countryside, there usually about 5 meter of buffer space until the fence), so probably clever, maybe even use the catenary to link it up to the grid...
But they actually put it in between the rail! Why?
That doesn't seem very clever, they could easely get damaged, cann't be angle toward the sun... Also, some train (most i think) don't have a septic tank, they just flush everything in between the rails... (edit: this is at least 20 years out of date, only very old trains still flush directly to the track, they now have a tank emptied every 3 days)
I mean, I have to assume they must have thought about all that but I'm confused they went ahead anyway, maybe those aren't such big flaws?
I can't comment on the damage as I agree it seems like a risk but regarding the other issues no trains discharge sewage onto the tracks anymore in the UK apart from bioreactor toilets that...
I can't comment on the damage as I agree it seems like a risk but regarding the other issues no trains discharge sewage onto the tracks anymore in the UK apart from bioreactor toilets that discharge sterile water (this may not be the same in France) and the lack of ability to angle the panels isn't that different from most flat roof installations, with the cost of panels it's become efficient to install them flat even at more northern latitudes.
I just can't see this being a good idea especially if they're hauling any freight instead of just passengers. Trains are dirty, they sometimes leak fluids, they haul dirty things, they blow dirt...
I just can't see this being a good idea especially if they're hauling any freight instead of just passengers.
Trains are dirty, they sometimes leak fluids, they haul dirty things, they blow dirt and debris around, and they vibrate and move the track. This last point... go watch the actual rail and ties when a train goes by; sometimes its pretty stable, sometimes it moves a lot, but trains always cause some amount of movement in the track. That can't be good for the panels.
I don't think this is solar freeking roadways tier dumb (not even close) but I feel like we have a million other places/things we could plaster with solar panels before doing railways. For example I saw an article about doing panels above parking lots for example. Its probably a better idea to put panels on the SIDES of buildings before we do railway tracks.
Yeah, as far as I'm aware there is no shortage of land to put panels on, and the fact that every parking lot and big box superstore rooftop doesn't have them is baffling.
Yeah, as far as I'm aware there is no shortage of land to put panels on, and the fact that every parking lot and big box superstore rooftop doesn't have them is baffling.
Most of France has 0-50 people per square kilometer, that's pretty low density, I can't imagine there isn't a large amount of open space for solar. Its significantly less dense than even my state...
Most of France has 0-50 people per square kilometer, that's pretty low density, I can't imagine there isn't a large amount of open space for solar. Its significantly less dense than even my state of NC which is very rural outside of 2 major metro areas.
@unkz points out that this specific railway had 28,000 km of track so let's say you can get 1 panel installed for every meter of that (idk how big a real panel is) thats 28 million panels. There...
@unkz points out that this specific railway had 28,000 km of track so let's say you can get 1 panel installed for every meter of that (idk how big a real panel is) thats 28 million panels. There are 69 million people in France so if every person (not household) could install 1 solar panel on their roof, balcony, awning, whatever... that would be double the amount of solar that you'd be able to install on that entire railway.
I know that not everyone had the ability to put solar up, but if the goal is to install a bunch of solar then maybe just incentivise people to install it on their homes. Increase electricity rates slightly and then put all that new money into solar subsidies. Raising the cost of electricity and lowering the cost of making your own would create more incentive.
Railways are a dumb spot for solar. There's no argument you can make about available space that changes the fact that it's a really bad spot for panels.
I kind of wonder though if the installation could be basically automated. After all, there is a track with extremely well known dimensions that goes above every installation site. Putting solar...
I kind of wonder though if the installation could be basically automated. After all, there is a track with extremely well known dimensions that goes above every installation site. Putting solar panels on a house is a pain. Putting them on a track could be the job of a robot.
Oh please! I urge everyone in this thread to have a look at EEVblog video and another one and debunked one about this. Why do people make it hard when there is so much space available to put...
Oh please! I urge everyone in this thread to have a look at EEVblog video and another one and debunked one about this.
Why do people make it hard when there is so much space available to put panels? Why on roads, walkways or freakin' railways? Put them over open parking lots, FFS! People will get cooler cars and the panels will live there happily ever after without any hardly any maintenance needed!
Wait, I know why people make it hard. They get all the money from all those who junp on it and after a few years they just say the project didn't go as planned while keeping the money.
EDIT: If you don't want to watch videos - there are vibrations on the rail tracks anfd guess what solar panel doesn't like? What about clening them? It is quite dirty on the tracks. What about changing faulty panels? You would have to stop everything on the track to exchange it.
In videos Dave points out there are roofs in the vicinity that could be used for solar panels, no special technology or maintenance required and possibly better angle against the sun as well. Even railway stations have roofs and could have pabels on them! And then there are those parking lits which should be the first to get solar panel covers. It would be cheaper, cover bigger area (thus higher power) and serve another point (shade for cars). We don't have to build solar roads and other nonsense, we could use technology of today on buildings already constructed for cheaper and higher power output.
Interesting, just yesterday I was speculating about regenerative brakes on locomotives to contribute to the power grid. I love this idea too! We have these rail lines all over the place, it just...
Interesting, just yesterday I was speculating about regenerative brakes on locomotives to contribute to the power grid. I love this idea too! We have these rail lines all over the place, it just makes sense to improve their efficiency.
I hope the solar panels aren't too tempting of a target for thieves and vandals. As long as there have been trains the public has had access to unattended stretches of track. Those tracks have always been pretty uninteresting, materially. But if they now contain expensive solar equipment, will that change the equation? I assume they'll only be installing these in populated areas, perhaps to reduce the risk of tampering.
Solar panels are barely worth anything from a raw resource standpoint. I'd worry a lot more about the copper in the lines they're feeding than the panels themselves. Which is a good problem to...
Solar panels are barely worth anything from a raw resource standpoint. I'd worry a lot more about the copper in the lines they're feeding than the panels themselves.
Which is a good problem to have, really. It's low value enough infrastructure that it is likely to be left alone.
You can probably lay solar panels on the ground just about anywhere but sure, why not? Maybe installation is easier?
SNCF Réseau manages nearly 28,000 km of rail line in France. That is a lot of cleared land available for solar that they are mostly not using at any given point in time. By my rough calculations, that would be about 40 square kilometers assuming 1.435 m between rails. No idea how much of that would be usable for this project, but that would surely cost tens of millions of dollars just to acquire that much land?
Below the article it looks like it says they estimates their 100km test strip will produce 16MWh per year. That works out to 4.48GWh of electricity produced by SNCF in France.
I suspect the answer might be "physics". They've supposedly already clocked they need to keep an eye on maintenance. There's a LOT of energy going over those tracks/across those ties, and I assumed they've accounted for some amount of flex and damage, but I'm not sure I can see this working.
Just off the top of my head, ignoring the flex, a single train dragging ANYTHING will destroy a huge swath of panels, and I assume it's sorta the same if it kicks up any sort of debris? It doesn't need to be something large either. Just some tree branch or something that a train can easily plow through but then gets caught under one of the cars and is now plowing through every panel?
Suppose it's possible that's less common/easier to handle than my instincts, but i'm skeptical this works out. It at least looks better thought out than solar roads.
Yeah I’m glad they’re doing a pilot because I think we should try stuff, even if they fail. But at a glance this seems like a non-viable idea for many of the same reasons as solar freaking roadways.
A more viable solution would be to just put up sheds with solar panels on them over a bunch of large surface parking lots and maybe solar panel awnings for windows.
I mean, a train going 100-300 km/h dragging something would already be "very bad" for the track infrastructure.
The difference between this an solar roads would be that the wheels aren't in contact with the solar surface. Yes there's flex between ties, but they're panels, there's going to be flex between them. I'd wonder a bit about dust / debris settling on them, but on any busy track a fast train going by is a fair bit of air pressure to dislodge stuff.
I'm sure SNCF owns some parking garages..... but why not try this too? Acres of surface lots aren't as much of a thing in France as they are in the US.
At first I thought they meant to use the space on the side of each track (in the countryside, there usually about 5 meter of buffer space until the fence), so probably clever, maybe even use the catenary to link it up to the grid...
But they actually put it in between the rail! Why?
That doesn't seem very clever, they could easely get damaged, cann't be angle toward the sun...
Also, some train (most i think) don't have a septic tank, they just flush everything in between the rails... (edit: this is at least 20 years out of date, only very old trains still flush directly to the track, they now have a tank emptied every 3 days)I mean, I have to assume they must have thought about all that but I'm confused they went ahead anyway, maybe those aren't such big flaws?
I can't comment on the damage as I agree it seems like a risk but regarding the other issues no trains discharge sewage onto the tracks anymore in the UK apart from bioreactor toilets that discharge sterile water (this may not be the same in France) and the lack of ability to angle the panels isn't that different from most flat roof installations, with the cost of panels it's become efficient to install them flat even at more northern latitudes.
I just can't see this being a good idea especially if they're hauling any freight instead of just passengers.
Trains are dirty, they sometimes leak fluids, they haul dirty things, they blow dirt and debris around, and they vibrate and move the track. This last point... go watch the actual rail and ties when a train goes by; sometimes its pretty stable, sometimes it moves a lot, but trains always cause some amount of movement in the track. That can't be good for the panels.
I don't think this is solar freeking roadways tier dumb (not even close) but I feel like we have a million other places/things we could plaster with solar panels before doing railways. For example I saw an article about doing panels above parking lots for example. Its probably a better idea to put panels on the SIDES of buildings before we do railway tracks.
Yeah, as far as I'm aware there is no shortage of land to put panels on, and the fact that every parking lot and big box superstore rooftop doesn't have them is baffling.
Most of France has 0-50 people per square kilometer, that's pretty low density, I can't imagine there isn't a large amount of open space for solar. Its significantly less dense than even my state of NC which is very rural outside of 2 major metro areas.
@unkz points out that this specific railway had 28,000 km of track so let's say you can get 1 panel installed for every meter of that (idk how big a real panel is) thats 28 million panels. There are 69 million people in France so if every person (not household) could install 1 solar panel on their roof, balcony, awning, whatever... that would be double the amount of solar that you'd be able to install on that entire railway.
I know that not everyone had the ability to put solar up, but if the goal is to install a bunch of solar then maybe just incentivise people to install it on their homes. Increase electricity rates slightly and then put all that new money into solar subsidies. Raising the cost of electricity and lowering the cost of making your own would create more incentive.
Railways are a dumb spot for solar. There's no argument you can make about available space that changes the fact that it's a really bad spot for panels.
I kind of wonder though if the installation could be basically automated. After all, there is a track with extremely well known dimensions that goes above every installation site. Putting solar panels on a house is a pain. Putting them on a track could be the job of a robot.
Oh please! I urge everyone in this thread to have a look at EEVblog video and another one and debunked one about this.
Why do people make it hard when there is so much space available to put panels? Why on roads, walkways or freakin' railways? Put them over open parking lots, FFS! People will get cooler cars and the panels will live there happily ever after without any hardly any maintenance needed!
Wait, I know why people make it hard. They get all the money from all those who junp on it and after a few years they just say the project didn't go as planned while keeping the money.
EDIT: If you don't want to watch videos - there are vibrations on the rail tracks anfd guess what solar panel doesn't like? What about clening them? It is quite dirty on the tracks. What about changing faulty panels? You would have to stop everything on the track to exchange it.
In videos Dave points out there are roofs in the vicinity that could be used for solar panels, no special technology or maintenance required and possibly better angle against the sun as well. Even railway stations have roofs and could have pabels on them! And then there are those parking lits which should be the first to get solar panel covers. It would be cheaper, cover bigger area (thus higher power) and serve another point (shade for cars). We don't have to build solar roads and other nonsense, we could use technology of today on buildings already constructed for cheaper and higher power output.
Welcome to the Internet hug.. I got a "502 Bad Gateway" on the site.
Interesting, just yesterday I was speculating about regenerative brakes on locomotives to contribute to the power grid. I love this idea too! We have these rail lines all over the place, it just makes sense to improve their efficiency.
I hope the solar panels aren't too tempting of a target for thieves and vandals. As long as there have been trains the public has had access to unattended stretches of track. Those tracks have always been pretty uninteresting, materially. But if they now contain expensive solar equipment, will that change the equation? I assume they'll only be installing these in populated areas, perhaps to reduce the risk of tampering.
Solar panels are barely worth anything from a raw resource standpoint. I'd worry a lot more about the copper in the lines they're feeding than the panels themselves.
Which is a good problem to have, really. It's low value enough infrastructure that it is likely to be left alone.
Isn't it more like "cheap solar equipment" nowadays?