24 votes

California goat grazing faces crisis after wage change

24 comments

  1. [14]
    vord
    Link
    Typical Ag propaganda. "Oh no we couldn't get enough Americans at slave wages, we need Visas. But we still need slave wages." So what I'm really hearing from this is that we need to ensure there...

    Typical Ag propaganda.

    "Oh no we couldn't get enough Americans at slave wages, we need Visas. But we still need slave wages."

    So what I'm really hearing from this is that we need to ensure there is an unlimited supply of visas, so that each worker only needs to do an 8 hour shift.

    And remove the exemption for sheep herders.

    Stop respecting farmers so much

    30 votes
    1. [12]
      snake_case
      Link Parent
      Yeah this is a “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas” situation

      Yeah this is a “we’ve tried nothing and we’re all out of ideas” situation

      16 votes
      1. [6]
        vord
        (edited )
        Link Parent
        I forget where I picked this up, but: If your business model falls apart when you start paying your employees a proper wage, you didn't have a business model. Somehow, every time political will...

        I forget where I picked this up, but:

        If your business model falls apart when you start paying your employees a proper wage, you didn't have a business model.

        Somehow, every time political will builds behind some pro-worker initiative, be it safety, wages, or time off, there is a torrent of "this will destroy the sector!" followed by absolutely nothing bad happening after the improvement is in place.

        21 votes
        1. [3]
          TurtleCracker
          Link Parent
          The problem is that they DO have a business model, its indirect theft, stealing from the community. If a business isn't paying a living wage the rest of the community has to fill in the gap with...

          The problem is that they DO have a business model, its indirect theft, stealing from the community.

          If a business isn't paying a living wage the rest of the community has to fill in the gap with social services, food banks, housing subsidies, homeless shelters, etc. etc. etc.

          10 votes
          1. [2]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            As the employers tell it, they provide everything to their foreign workers and the they don't interact with the community at all. They claim that the cost of living is nothing while they're...

            As the employers tell it, they provide everything to their foreign workers and the they don't interact with the community at all. They claim that the cost of living is nothing while they're working, and then they go home.

            This reminds me of someone getting a job on a fishing boat in Alaska.

            Maybe it doesn't really work that way, though? It would be nice to hear from the goatherds themselves.

            6 votes
            1. DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              They're legally required to provide room and board for their employees because they're on those specific visas. It's not a kindness thing. My former job also had to provide me room and board and...

              They're legally required to provide room and board for their employees because they're on those specific visas. It's not a kindness thing. My former job also had to provide me room and board and not consider it compensation because I was required to live there and respond.

              The goat herders were interviewed in said 93 page report.

              7 votes
        2. [2]
          skybrian
          Link Parent
          On the one hand, when a business shuts down because they can't make it work, sure, that's capitalism. There will be other businesses. But on the other hand: when a factory lays everyone off and...

          On the one hand, when a business shuts down because they can't make it work, sure, that's capitalism. There will be other businesses.

          But on the other hand: when a factory lays everyone off and shuts down, that is not good news for the people who are out of a job and it seems rather heartless to cheer about it. It seems like the same thing here?

          6 votes
          1. vord
            Link Parent
            Overly generalizing here, but best I can tell factories are rarely closed because they are unprofitable, but rather that it is more profitable to move them. It is the greed to perpetually pad...

            Overly generalizing here, but best I can tell factories are rarely closed because they are unprofitable, but rather that it is more profitable to move them. It is the greed to perpetually pad margins and a lack of consequences for ignoring the disrupted communities that fuels this.

            In this case, yes a jump from $60k to almost $300k is high. But I'll bet that could easily be shaved to $180k total cost by adding a second shift, because a huge percentage of that gain is due to the overtime.

            And when you bear in mind that we're talking about an area where the median household income is $60k, I do not consider it unreasonable that people doing utterly hellish work get paid on-par with the difficulty of the work that they are doing.

            What I am saying is that those exemptions shouldn't have been put in place to begin with. I doubt there wasn't a phase-in plan to account for this and raise contract pricing accordingly. Some transparency about margins would certainly help their case, but I have a nagging suspicion that the volunteers to do so are few and far between.

            4 votes
      2. [5]
        skybrian
        Link Parent
        It seems like it's bigger than any single business. If they double their prices will they still get customers, or will their customers decide that, at that price, they can do without the goats?...

        It seems like it's bigger than any single business. If they double their prices will they still get customers, or will their customers decide that, at that price, they can do without the goats?

        They seem to believe they won't have a business anymore. Maybe they're wrong, but...

        1 vote
        1. [3]
          DefinitelyNotAFae
          Link Parent
          And the point made by @vord stands. Maybe they don't need 24 hour goatherds, maybe they need a pen with some livestock guard dogs. But if they do need them, they need 3-4 shifts of them, to cover...

          And the point made by @vord stands.

          Maybe they don't need 24 hour goatherds, maybe they need a pen with some livestock guard dogs. But if they do need them, they need 3-4 shifts of them, to cover weekends.

          But I could as easily ask why not let them cut their costs in half and not pay their workers as much as they are? Why not let them abuse their employees more?

          (Because generally we don't want employers to abuse their employees)

          Plus they have literally not tried it. Might as well, since it's the law and see how it goes. They can "claim" what they want, whatever they actually think. Lets see.

          6 votes
          1. [2]
            skybrian
            Link Parent
            One thing that strikes me is that the article doesn't include any interviews with the goatherds. I wonder what they think? It's a traditional occupation. Have goatherds been abused for centuries?

            One thing that strikes me is that the article doesn't include any interviews with the goatherds. I wonder what they think?

            It's a traditional occupation. Have goatherds been abused for centuries?

            5 votes
            1. DefinitelyNotAFae
              Link Parent
              There is a 93 page report that contains at least some of the answers to the questions you ask. It was interesting to skim through. I found it via Google very easily! And your second question is...

              There is a 93 page report that contains at least some of the answers to the questions you ask. It was interesting to skim through. I found it via Google very easily!

              And your second question is context dependent and nonsensical when comparing modern commercial herding to "centuries" of herding but answered as asked, of course.

              The answer would be "of course" to any group of employees over the course of centuries. Because you're not asking if all of them were abused, nor are you delineating the herders who worked for themselves or families vs for private commercial business, or who were immigrants vs in their home country.

              But yeah, of course herders have been abused for centuries.

              6 votes
        2. snake_case
          Link Parent
          I think the article said the county was paying for it? In a lot of places the clearing is done by controlled fire, that seems way more expensive in labor and pollution than goats.

          I think the article said the county was paying for it?

          In a lot of places the clearing is done by controlled fire, that seems way more expensive in labor and pollution than goats.

          2 votes
    2. raze2012
      Link Parent
      It is very interesting how farming seems to be one of those last bastions of "corporate can't touch me here!" fields. Meanwhile, Agriculture was not only compromised long ago, but was probably one...

      Stop respecting farmers so much

      It is very interesting how farming seems to be one of those last bastions of "corporate can't touch me here!" fields. Meanwhile, Agriculture was not only compromised long ago, but was probably one of the first fields to be incorporated. Doesn't matter the economy; everyone needs to eat. So of course corporate interests would establish themselves there as early as possible.

      This is all to say; the people making this case are probably billionaire companies that can easily 1) pay the overtime if needed, especially in California where the alternative is a costly wildfire or 2) can hire more labor to rotate out into shifts, like any other reasonable company. I don't exactly have much sympathy here. Pay you labor.

      5 votes
  2. skybrian
    Link
    From the article: [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...] [...]

    From the article:

    Goats have become a familiar sight on California hillsides, munching through weeds and brush before they can become fuel for wildfires. But the companies that put those herds to work said a change in state labor rules have made goat grazing too expensive to continue.

    The labor rule in question was a temporary state law that allowed goat herders to be paid under the same wage structure as sheep herders, but expired July 1. Goat grazing companies said the expiration meant they could face annual wage costs of about $240,000 per herder because of overtime requirements.

    Company owners said the higher labor costs might force them to switch from goats to sheep, or shut down and sell their herds.

    [...]

    In California, grazing companies were frequently hired by cities and other local governments to use goats to reduce vegetation that could fuel wildfires. The exact percentage of California’s 500,000 sheep and 125,000 goats used for targeted grazing was unknown, but labor advocates and grazing company owners agreed it was at least 20% and increasing.

    Tim Arrowsmith, owner of Western Grazers, a goat grazing company in Red Bluff, said goats could eat a much wider variety of plants than sheep, including starthistle, a thorny weed that grew densely and could become a wildfire risk because of its dry, fibrous stems and leaves. Sheep would eat starthistle only in the early stages of growth, but goats would eat it even after it became prickly.

    [...]

    The law at the center of the dispute was Assembly Bill 1066, signed by then-Gov. Jerry Brown, which gradually extended overtime pay requirements to agricultural workers. Under the law, agricultural workers eventually became entitled to 1.5 times their normal wage for working more than eight hours a day or 40 hours a week.

    Range herders, including sheep and goat herders, were originally treated differently under the overtime law because most herding companies said they could not afford conventional hourly overtime for jobs that required herders to remain on duty around the clock. Instead, the state established a minimum monthly wage for herders that included $2,934 in regular wages and an additional $1,887 in overtime wages.

    More than 90% of sheep and goat herders in California worked under H-2A visas, most commonly coming from Peru and Mexico. Companies like Western Grazers also had to cover herders’ room and board, meals, limited clothing expenses and transportation to and from their home countries, along with visa costs.

    [...]

    In 2022, the California Labor Commissioner’s Office determined that the alternative minimum monthly wage applied only to sheep herders, not goat herders. The interpretation meant goat herders were subject to standard overtime requirements for the hours they worked, potentially pushing annual wages to around $240,000 per herder, in addition to expenses paid by employers.

    [...]

    Lorena Gonzalez Fletcher, who authored AB 1066 while serving in the state Assembly, said she fought for the bill because she believed agricultural workers should have the right to an eight-hour workday like other workers.

    [...]

    Workers on H-2A visas were particularly vulnerable, said Fletcher, now president of the California Federation of Labor Unions. Herders working under the visa program could work for employers such as Western Grazers for three years, return to their home countries for 90 days and then return to California for another three years, she said. They often spoke little to no English, worked in isolation and had no direct path to U.S. citizenship through the visa program.

    [...]

    Arrowsmith said grazing companies used H-2A workers because U.S. workers did not apply for herding jobs.

    [...]

    “All stakeholders agree that the alternative minimum monthly wage for range herders who are on duty 24/7 should be the same for sheep and goat herders because the workers and work involved in herding sheep and goats are similar and often overlap,” the report read.

    “The Legislature got this study and did absolutely nothing with it,” said Soares. “They just let (SB 143) expire.”

    7 votes
  3. [8]
    gary
    Link
    Goat herders were paid ~$60k + room&board. Sheep herders were also paid about ~$60k + room &board. A law made it so that goat herders were not considered the same as sheep herders and goat herders...
    • Goat herders were paid ~$60k + room&board.
    • Sheep herders were also paid about ~$60k + room &board.
    • A law made it so that goat herders were not considered the same as sheep herders and goat herders now need to be paid ~$240k + room&board.

    It seems pretty understandable that if your labor costs go up $150k+/employee overnight, you'll have a hard time making payroll. The charges to your customers were calculated considering the old wage and the new wage is so much higher that you'll have to go convince customers to pay way more before the next time you need to pay your employees. Maybe they will and everyone will be happy! Or maybe they won't because wildfire risk is a cost that everyone bears but unless everyone's paying then why would I suddenly pay a shit ton more?

    I hope you guys remember this when we get the next major wildfire in California and someone says "why don't they just have goats graze the hills". Who's going to pay $240k + room&board to a goat herder when they could pay $60k + room&board for a sheep herder? Lol.

    7 votes
    1. [4]
      DeaconBlue
      Link Parent
      The normal response to requiring overtime pay like that is to turn it into shift work.

      The normal response to requiring overtime pay like that is to turn it into shift work.

      8 votes
      1. [3]
        gary
        Link Parent
        If it's truly a 24/7 job, then 3 shifts of 8 hours just multiplies the current cost by 3, which brings the cost to about the same. It's probably going to be some mix of shift work, more goats per...

        If it's truly a 24/7 job, then 3 shifts of 8 hours just multiplies the current cost by 3, which brings the cost to about the same. It's probably going to be some mix of shift work, more goats per herder, an "on-call" dedicated herder, and even then it's not clear this would work. The study itself notes that only "sometimes" is it possible for there to be a dedicated herder in an on-call system where one herder manages multiple flocks. If it's 1 designated on-call herder per flock, we get back to the same expensive problem.

        Herders said they actively worked seven to eight hours a day or 49 to 56 hours a week. Daily routines could be interrupted by animals escaping, predators, or other events that required immediate responses, and thus herders were on-call 24/7. During lambing and kidding season (from October to November) both ranchers and herders are often on duty and frequently working almost around the clock.
        ...
        Ranchers said that it was not possible to designate non-duty time if one herder is responsible for 1,000 animals in a remote area, since time off for one herder would require a relief worker to circulate among herders, and the off-duty herder may not be able to leave the workplace. Ranchers said they could not afford the additional cost of hiring relief herders. However, there are sometimes several flocks of animals and several herders in proximity, suggesting that a hub and spoke system could allow several herders to be based in permanent housing or a motel and provided with vehicles to travel to their flock for the workday. House- or motel-based herders could be paid hourly wages and could work split-shift schedules, giving them time off during the middle of the day when the animals rest. A hub and spoke system could allow one herder to be on duty overnight while the other herders were off duty.

        page 16

        I would also like to copy this comment from the article's comment section:

        I had a small grazing business; 40 goats. This business like many agriculture based businesses is very different from what many people know and understand, so I think some opinions are essentially uninformed. When a business runs on a 24 schedule, like caring for any living being -- plant or animal, including human -- there is no real downtime. Someone always needs to be on duty and responsible and there needs to be a great deal of continuity of care, so that simply hiring someone to take the next shift is not optimal or even practical. Also grazing work, especially for very large jobs like hundreds or thousands of acres, can take a person too far away from any regular home for commuting.

        2 votes
        1. [2]
          DeaconBlue
          Link Parent
          Wow, sounds incredibly important and the price increase is justified. Weird that sheep are somehow immune to these issues.

          Wow, sounds incredibly important and the price increase is justified.

          Weird that sheep are somehow immune to these issues.

          4 votes
          1. gary
            (edited )
            Link Parent
            Our entire society is predicated on the idea that some jobs require 24/7 on-call while not paying 24/7. The concept of an hourly wage and overtime derives from jobs that are hourly, but some...

            Our entire society is predicated on the idea that some jobs require 24/7 on-call while not paying 24/7. The concept of an hourly wage and overtime derives from jobs that are hourly, but some professions are outside of the traditional 8 hour structure. Paying overtime based on that has no moral grounding any more than not paying overtime based on that. It's just about desired outcomes. In this case, the government desired that goat herders should get paid consistent overtime with other professions. If the result is that goat herders get paid more but the same amount of goats grazing is the same, that's a win-win. If the result is that there are fewer goat herders and less grazing, it's a lose-lose.

            EDIT: And the reason sheep herding has an exemption is because sheep herding economics probably wouldn't support it. Either it does and it should follow goat herding or it doesn't and goat herding should follow it.

            5 votes
    2. [3]
      kacey
      Link Parent
      If the cost of wildfire damages is still higher than the cost of labour, wouldn't local governments pay? Or perhaps this will incentivize the private sector to develop AI/robotics solutions to go...

      Who's going to pay $240k + room&board to a goat herder when they could pay $60k + room&board for a sheep herder? Lol.

      If the cost of wildfire damages is still higher than the cost of labour, wouldn't local governments pay? Or perhaps this will incentivize the private sector to develop AI/robotics solutions to go manage the fields (or goats, whichever is easiest), since now they can realistically provide a cheaper solution -- it is California, after all, which is the tech centre of the world.

      Alternatively, this could be addressed by allowing insurance rates to increase, driving down the cost of land, which would force residents to move (or burn to a crisp). But that's a natural consequence of living in a disaster prone area.

      3 votes
      1. gary
        Link Parent
        You'd think so (and I would too), but the California government hasn't done a great job up till now and I doubt increasing expenses would make that better. Said government is also the power...

        You'd think so (and I would too), but the California government hasn't done a great job up till now and I doubt increasing expenses would make that better. Said government is also the power preventing the insurance premium increases you mention so.. it's not looking great.

        4 votes
      2. nukeman
        Link Parent
        Labor/operating costs need to be paid now, wildfire costs need to be paid later (or never, they might just get covered by the state or the federal government).

        Labor/operating costs need to be paid now, wildfire costs need to be paid later (or never, they might just get covered by the state or the federal government).

        2 votes
  4. skybrian
    Link
    Matt Levine wrote about California goat herding business risk hedging on Friday. I saved a quote here.

    Matt Levine wrote about California goat herding business risk hedging on Friday. I saved a quote here.

    2 votes