25 votes

The day I put $50,000 in a shoe box and handed it to a stranger

14 comments

  1. [5]
    chocobean
    Link
    I'm glad she wrote this article: in the safety and comfort of our homes it's easy to see it is a scam, and we can poke holes at it all we want. But it's important to read just in case it happens...

    I'm glad she wrote this article: in the safety and comfort of our homes it's easy to see it is a scam, and we can poke holes at it all we want. But it's important to read just in case it happens to us or those we love.

    They probably also targeted her on Halloween because targets with children would be busy thinking about the kids looking forward to festivities, how they can't disappoint and upset the children, and want it to all be over so they can get back to their original holiday plans.

    I knew I should probably talk to a lawyer or maybe call the police, though I was doubtful that they would help. [...] “If you talk to an attorney, I cannot help you anymore,” [...] And when you haven’t done anything wrong, the risk of cooperating feels minimal, he added. An innocent person thinks everything will get sorted out.

    Especially if she was talking to the real CIA or real police, especially because she's innocent, she should have hung up and got a lawyer involved. Investigators do not help people they are investigating.

    26 votes
    1. JXM
      Link Parent
      I think this is an extremely important point to stress. It might seem obvious to us reading this story, but in the moment it can seem all to real and serious. My dad fell for one of those fake IRS...

      In the safety and comfort of our homes it's easy to see it is a scam, and we can poke holes at it all we want. But it's important to read just in case it happens to us or those we love.

      I think this is an extremely important point to stress. It might seem obvious to us reading this story, but in the moment it can seem all to real and serious.

      My dad fell for one of those fake IRS tax scams where they call and say you'll be arrested unless you pay your "back taxes" immediately. This was nearly a decade ago, before they were as widespread and well known as they are now. When he told me what happened, my first reaction was to be mad, but I can see why he panicked in the moment and sent them the money (luckily it was only $200).

      12 votes
    2. GenuinelyCrooked
      Link Parent
      This story just reinforces that you should never, ever speak to law enforcement without a lawyer. This isn't what's typically being warned against with that advice, but it applies all the same. If...

      This story just reinforces that you should never, ever speak to law enforcement without a lawyer. This isn't what's typically being warned against with that advice, but it applies all the same. If law enforcement is directing you not to speak with a lawyer, that's all the more reason to speak with one.

      9 votes
    3. [2]
      Moonchild
      Link Parent
      Police, yes—cia? perhaps not. Government can fuck you up (e.g.). But that's not too likely to happen to most people.

      Police, yes—cia? perhaps not. Government can fuck you up (e.g.). But that's not too likely to happen to most people.

      2 votes
      1. R3qn65
        Link Parent
        But even in that situation, hanging up and calling a lawyer helped, not hurt.

        But even in that situation, hanging up and calling a lawyer helped, not hurt.

        5 votes
  2. [3]
    gowestyoungman
    (edited )
    Link
    I feel bad for her, but I know the feeling of uncertainty when someone contacts you and you just can't figure out of they're legit or not. Four times in the last few months it's happened to me....

    I feel bad for her, but I know the feeling of uncertainty when someone contacts you and you just can't figure out of they're legit or not. Four times in the last few months it's happened to me. It's a collection agency saying I missed a heating bill from four years ago. Really? Four years ago and you're calling me now? For a measly $150?

    Turns out that bill is probably semi legit but the house was rented out at the time so it wasn't me who missed the payment. But it took a long time to verify as they wouldn't even show me a bill and at first said they didn't even have one, just that they bought the debt. For weeks I thought they were just scamming me. Might still be as I keep very good records and very very rarely miss a bill payment.

    Edit: I finally got the collection agency to send me the bill. It has my name and my address but its not my account. I had 6 accounts with that particular company at the time and this wasn't one of them. Not paying them a dime.

    13 votes
    1. skybrian
      Link Parent
      They're likely correct that they don't have the bill or any decent documentation, but that also means they may be on thin ice getting anything from you, if you know your rights. (Or at least that...

      They're likely correct that they don't have the bill or any decent documentation, but that also means they may be on thin ice getting anything from you, if you know your rights. (Or at least that seems to be true in the US; I'm not a lawyer and you should probably seek advice about your specific situation.)

      From: Credit card debt collection

      Debts are conveyed to the debt buyers as large CSV files with minimal supporting documentation. The legal reality of a credit card debt begins with a contractualized promise to pay. You might assume that the owner of the debt necessarily has read that contract. Reader, if the debt has been sold, they have not merely not read that contract, they have likely not received a copy of that contract. They might have the contractual right to ask the seller of the portfolio to ask the entity it bought the portfolio from to follow a few more links in the chain to eventually ask the financial institution for a copy of the contract. In principle, financial institutions always have the contract… somewhere. In practice, they will frequently not organize themselves to actually locate it; this business is off their books and Operations has better things to do than hunting in the archives for a paper copy of a low-value contract signed several years ago.

      The rights of debtors are observed by both primary lenders and eventual debt buyers mostly in the breach. One of those rights is to a written “debt verification”, with specified information in it, and (surprisingly, if you haven’t worked in this field) despite that being the law many debts are sold in such a fashion that the buyer couldn’t produce a responsive verification even if they wanted to. That isn’t even a political claim; it’s just the engineering reality of which columns are in their CSV file.

      The former advocate in me will observe that the single most effective method for resolving debts is carefully sending a series of letters invoking one’s rights under the FDCPA (and other legislation) to a debt collector who is operationally incapable of respecting those rights, then threatening them with legal or regulatory action when they inevitably infringe upon them in writing, leading to them abandoning further attempts at collection.

      This effectively makes paying consumer debts basically optional in the United States, contingent on one being sufficiently organized and informed. That is likely a surprising result to many people. Is the financial industry unaware of this? Oh no. Issuing consumer debt is an enormously profitable business. The vast majority of consumers, including those with the socioeconomic wherewithal to walk away from their debts, feel themselves morally bound and pay as agreed.

      Also:

      As a former advocate, I’d report that it is never in a debtor’s interest to verbally speak to a debt collector under any circumstances. One’s likelihood of being abused or lied to, including in financially consequential fashions, is high, and one’s ability to counter that is minimal. Instead, force them to do all correspondence on paper, where lies are self-documenting, illegal threats are immediately admissible to regulatory processes or court, etc.

      18 votes
    2. bl4kers
      Link Parent
      Disclaimer: Not legal advice. Collection agencies are notorious for their antics and almost always acting in bad faith. They often don't know the legitimacy of the debt and don't care about that...

      Disclaimer: Not legal advice.

      Collection agencies are notorious for their antics and almost always acting in bad faith. They often don't know the legitimacy of the debt and don't care about that if they're able to extract money from you, since that's a return on investment.

      This blog post discusses the industry at length. I highly recommend reading it so you don't fall victim to their intimidation or guilt tactics. Sorry, didn't see that this was already posted!

      In short though, if they call, ask for it in writing. If they write, ask for verification. If they can't produce verification and are still bothering you, threaten legal or regulatory action.

      9 votes
  3. [4]
    Well_known_bear
    Link
    This (and the recent Cory Doctorow article) really stresses to me the importance of just taking a moment to hang up and call the institution directly from your side if any kind of stranger...

    This (and the recent Cory Doctorow article) really stresses to me the importance of just taking a moment to hang up and call the institution directly from your side if any kind of stranger contacts you on the phone at all. In our modern life, I am finding that more and more, the only people who call me directly are not the service providers I deal with, but scammers and spammers.

    13 votes
    1. skybrian
      Link Parent
      And it seems that just taking a break is important, which hanging up and calling back later gives you a chance to do.

      And it seems that just taking a break is important, which hanging up and calling back later gives you a chance to do.

      7 votes
    2. MimicSquid
      Link Parent
      Yeah. Anytime someone reaches out to you and expresses that there's urgency, it's a scam.

      Yeah. Anytime someone reaches out to you and expresses that there's urgency, it's a scam.

      2 votes
    3. Wafik
      Link Parent
      Yeah I always do this. I'm not so cocky to believe that I could never fall prey to a scam but I do feel like it is very unlikely that I will fall prey to a phone scam as I am instantly skeptical...

      Yeah I always do this. I'm not so cocky to believe that I could never fall prey to a scam but I do feel like it is very unlikely that I will fall prey to a phone scam as I am instantly skeptical of anyone calling me.

      Thankfully, I guess, most of the scam calls I get are incredibly obvious like the classic "The RCMP is taking seizure action against your SSN unless you immediately..."

      2 votes
  4. skybrian
    Link
    From the article:

    From the article:

    It was my brother, the lawyer, who pointed out that what I had experienced sounded a lot like a coerced confession. “I read enough transcripts of bad interrogations in law school to understand that anyone can be convinced that they have a very narrow set of terrible options,” he said. When I posed this theory to Saul Kassin, a psychology professor at John Jay College of Criminal Justice who studies coerced confessions, he agreed. “If someone is trying to get you to be compliant, they do it incrementally, in a series of small steps that take you farther and farther from what you know to be true,” he said. “It’s not about breaking the will. They were altering the sense of reality.” And when you haven’t done anything wrong, the risk of cooperating feels minimal, he added. An innocent person thinks everything will get sorted out. It also mattered that I was kept on the phone for so long. People start to break down cognitively after a few hours of interrogation. “At that point, they’re not thinking straight. They feel the need to put an end to the situation at all costs,” Kassin said.

    6 votes