In their recent paper, published today in Nature Communications, Hill-Maini and colleagues at UC Berkeley, the Joint BioEnergy Institute, and the Novo Nordisk Foundation Center for Biosustainability studied a multicellular fungus called Aspergillus oryzae, also known as koji mold, that has been used in East Asia to ferment starches into sake, soy sauce, and miso for centuries. First, the team used CRISPR-Cas9 to develop a gene editing system that can make consistent and reproducible changes to the koji mold genome. Once they had established a toolkit of edits, they applied their system to make modifications that elevate the mold as a food source. First, Hill-Maini focused on boosting the mold’s production of heme – an iron-based molecule which is found in many lifeforms but is most abundant in animal tissue, giving meat its color and distinctive flavor. (A synthetically produced plant-derived heme is also what gives the Impossible Burger its meat-duping properties.) Next, the team punched up production of ergothioneine, an antioxidant only found in fungi that is associated with cardiovascular health benefits.
After these changes, the once-white fungi grew red. With minimal preparation – removing excess water and grinding – the harvested fungi could be shaped into a patty, then fried into a tempting-looking burger.
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In a separate study, he and Keasling collaborated with chefs at Alchemist, a two-Michelin-starred restaurant in Copenhagen, to play with the culinary potential of another multicellular fungus, Neurospora intermedia. This fungus is traditionally used in Indonesia to produce a staple food called oncom by fermenting the waste products left over from making other foods, such as tofu.
I find reading this a bit funny because most of the stuff that they talked about kind of already exist without needing to go to a lab. When they're talking about making fungi with long fibers, I...
I find reading this a bit funny because most of the stuff that they talked about kind of already exist without needing to go to a lab. When they're talking about making fungi with long fibers, I think to myself, "We already have that; it's called mushroom". They sell them shaped and seasoned under a brand called Meati. To my knowledge they do not use any bioengineered mushrooms; they just use existing mushroom mycelium.
They talk about bacteria liquifying and sweetening rice, but that's already been done for centuries; it's called firmentation and it's been used to make things like Japanese amazake or Korean sikhye. One traditional method to make it does not require having Koji at hand; you simply chew a mouthful of cooked rice, spit it back into the pot, and leave it out.
Plant based heme is indeed a newer food innovation, but here's the kicker; it's really unclear if it actually improves the taste of plant based food. You can't buy leghemoglobin outside of Impossible "meat", and you can't buy Impossible "meat" without leghemoglobin. Because the process of making leghemoglobin uses bacteria that is legally protected you can't get it from any other source, and they are not interested in selling the ingredient to anyone when they can use it to increase the price of their product by more than an order of magnitude. That heme-modified koji patty was written as looking appetizing, not tasting appetizing.
This is not to dismiss the work that these scientists are doing, of course; there are many potential innovations to look forward to that could result from this kind of research. But to call it the future of food is to misunderstand why people are eating what they are eating. The food does not need to change; the people eating them needs to change. People choose their food based on a number of factors, but factor number one is culture. Factor number two is craving, but that's a bit harder to quantify because there are many confounding factors that are both psychological and physiological in nature. The problem with this framing is that in cases where there is availability of a wide variety of foods, all reasons to choose meat are man-made. Nature and society has given us food options and structures that make them available; we need merely choose them.
You are right, price is a factor! But It's trailing for last place for a large portion of the population. Meat is very expensive compared to plant sources, but it's still consumed in large...
You are right, price is a factor! But It's trailing for last place for a large portion of the population. Meat is very expensive compared to plant sources, but it's still consumed in large quantities because of the other two factors I mentioned. In any case we are still very far off from making fungi into a direct replacement for meat, especially when we are so close to commercializing cultivated meat products.
Taste is also extremely subjective, so it really doesn't matter that researchers have vouched for it; the people you know have similar tastes to you have not, and they can not. Impossible tastes meaty largely because it's made mostly of protein, contains yeast extract, and has about 1/10th of it's weight in fat. There is less leghemoglobin in it then there is yeast extract, dextrose, or starches or thickeners. I am not saying that it doesn't have an effect, because I have no doubt that it will bring that rusty scent and flavor to the product, but the thing that is much harder to proove is that it's a flavor you actually want. That is the scent and flavor you get from raw beef, and cooking and seasoning tends to hide those flavors.
During my MBA program me and a group of students performed a conjoint analysis of factors that fast food customers looked for in a burger. Specifically, we were looking for public sentiment...
During my MBA program me and a group of students performed a conjoint analysis of factors that fast food customers looked for in a burger. Specifically, we were looking for public sentiment towards a meatless burger.
Many respondandts indicated that they valued health and sustainability just behind taste. But when we did the analysis, we found that that was lip service. Most people would not be willing to pay an dollar extra for a burger that was healthier and more sustainable. This was represented well across all demographics we surveyed.
So unfortunately, price dominates many folks eating decisions.
I am somewhat surprised that literally everyone relies on their instincts for a raw primal need like food, but I really shouldn't be.
But when we did the analysis, we found that that was lip service. Most people would not be willing to pay an dollar extra for a burger that was healthier and more sustainable. This was represented well across all demographics we surveyed.
I am somewhat surprised that literally everyone relies on their instincts for a raw primal need like food, but I really shouldn't be.
Out of curiousity, may I ask what vegan food means to you? I've read that it's expensive a few times, but in my diet, switching only meant cutting out beef, chicken, eggs and milk products. Those...
And even then, vegan food is more expensive to begin with (well, unless you just eat beans) [...]
Out of curiousity, may I ask what vegan food means to you? I've read that it's expensive a few times, but in my diet, switching only meant cutting out beef, chicken, eggs and milk products. Those were all by far the most expensive parts of it anyhow. If anything I'm eating a lot more variety than before (e.g. brassicas that I wouldn't've tried before, eggplants (they always looked weird, don't judge me XD), tempeh), so it seems like a net win for me.
But perhaps your cooking repertoire is a lot larger than mine, so you'd lose a lot of variety by comparison!
It can get pricey if you want more "direct" vegan replacements from the store. Vegan cheese is pricier, vegan chicken nuggets are pricier, vegan egg is pricier, etc. Overall, I spend less eating...
It can get pricey if you want more "direct" vegan replacements from the store. Vegan cheese is pricier, vegan chicken nuggets are pricier, vegan egg is pricier, etc. Overall, I spend less eating vegan as compared to an omnivore diet, but specialty products can add up quick.
I think the struggle people have with vegan food (when they aren't vegan or are new vegans) is that they want a vegan meal that mimics/replaces a meat/dairy meal when vegan cooking has a different mindset. This drive for mimicking/replacing will increase costs unless you learn how to make your own replacements which is time consuming.
I suspect that a lot of the plant/fungi based meats may still have uses as filler for cultured meat, especially for lower cost applications. I could see a cultured/fungi blend becoming common, in...
I suspect that a lot of the plant/fungi based meats may still have uses as filler for cultured meat, especially for lower cost applications. I could see a cultured/fungi blend becoming common, in whatever ratio is optimal for price and taste.
Nutritional yeast is different from yeast extract; they have very different flavor profiles. There's a reason why I mentioned it in combination with the fat and protein, which are the greater...
Nutritional yeast is different from yeast extract; they have very different flavor profiles. There's a reason why I mentioned it in combination with the fat and protein, which are the greater parts of the flavor profile. They're also not the only parts; even if they were nobody tends to eat unseasoned ground beef so extra spices (salt especially) are vital.
The experience of flavor is actually multi-sensory, beyond just the sensation of taste. It involves, touch, smell, and sight, so manufacturers trying to make these products try to emulate all the aspects of meat. The largest function of leghemoglobin is that it replicates the myoglobin that meat has; it "bleeds", and that adds to the experience. But the thing about that experience is that it only really applies if you're actually cooking it. If you're getting in in a prepared meal you're missing the "show".
Do keep in mind that when people talk about things tasting like meat, they generally mean it as in that it's simelar enough to act as a replacement, not that it's a direct, 1-for-1 "buy the generic brand instead" replacement. Taste and smell are powerful senses and our mouths are very senstive to touch; we are very good at finding very fine differences. That's why I'm always skeptical about the effectiveness of artificial meat products. Cultured meat is likely to be a good enough replacement, but I've still got reservations.
I've lost track of when I started, but I've been eating a whole foods plant based diet for less than a year because of a cumulation of health problems. Before that I was eating a diet rich in meat and other animal products.
I haven't done the research to find particular evidence, but I suspect there are specific taste receptors for heme-containing proteins. You can boost umami in all kinds of ways that don't require...
I haven't done the research to find particular evidence, but I suspect there are specific taste receptors for heme-containing proteins. You can boost umami in all kinds of ways that don't require animal products, but it's hard to satisfy cravings for iron.
Bioavailability of non-heme iron from natural plant materials isn't very good. Avoiding iron and other mineral deficiencies on a vegan or vegetarian regimen requires a highly varied diet and adequate combination with ascorbate (Vitamin C) containing foods.
While it’s true that plant based iron isn’t as usable as animal heme, that is when taken by itself. There are a number of things you can also eat that will increase that bioavailability. A varied...
While it’s true that plant based iron isn’t as usable as animal heme, that is when taken by itself. There are a number of things you can also eat that will increase that bioavailability. A varied diet is recommended regardless of if you are vegan or not.
I don’t think that you are correct about taste receptors but if you find out anything I would be interested.
The only paper I've been able to find which specifically addresses heme taste perception is hard paywalled. Even "metallic flavor" isn't as well understood as the other taste sensations.
The only paper I've been able to find which specifically addresses heme taste perception is hard paywalled. Even "metallic flavor" isn't as well understood as the other taste sensations.
Thanks for taking the time to find that! I was able to get a copy of it that, uh, fell off of a truck. I’m not in a place to read through it entirely right now, but it seems to be a review of...
Thanks for taking the time to find that! I was able to get a copy of it that, uh, fell off of a truck. I’m not in a place to read through it entirely right now, but it seems to be a review of existing research rather than a new study. Here is the conclusion:
Metallic taste has largely been studied from the perspective of non-heme iron. Few data are available for heme, which seems to be the primary molecule conferring the taste of meat and, due to its content of iron, may also be the primary molecule responsible for metallic taste. Further studies are needed to better characterize the role of heme as a taste molecule and to identify the underlying molecular mechanisms.
It does go into a bit about a sensation they call dysgeusia, which might be another thing to look into if you haven’t heard of that term like I have.
Edit: this citation appears to be the best bet, though it’s not a scientific paper:
Fraser R, Brown POJ, Karr J, Holz-Schietinger C, Cohn E. Methods and compositions for affecting the flavor and aroma pro- file of consumables. United States: USPTO Patent Number US9700067B2; 2017. This patent contains much of the data supporting a role for heme in the taste of meat.
It's always been interesting to me that certain drugs and diseases cause perception of unpleasant foul, sour, bitter, or metallic tastes (dysgeusia), but we don't really have a good enough...
It's always been interesting to me that certain drugs and diseases cause perception of unpleasant foul, sour, bitter, or metallic tastes (dysgeusia), but we don't really have a good enough understanding of what sensory components cause that sensation. The second study on taste/sensation/flavor of metallic compounds also suggests that there's greater sensitivity to iron and its oxidation states than to other metals of dietary significance. It found evidence we can (somehow!) get distinct retronasal perceptions of the flavors of non-volatile iron compounds. So maybe there isn't a specific receptor for heme taste, but the "palatability" of different iron compounds distinguishes heme from non-heme iron.
Mucinex does that to me like crazy. It’s extremely unbearable. BTW I put an edit with their primary citation about the flavor of heme. It’s just the impossible foods patent.
Mucinex does that to me like crazy. It’s extremely unbearable.
BTW I put an edit with their primary citation about the flavor of heme. It’s just the impossible foods patent.
It's a press release from an academic research lab. They do tend to speculate about possible applications, but a company would have to commercialize it, and whether that happens is anyone's guess....
It's a press release from an academic research lab. They do tend to speculate about possible applications, but a company would have to commercialize it, and whether that happens is anyone's guess.
Posting this as a sibling comment to Akir's thread, but there's a very similar product called Quorn that's been in the UK market for decades. IIRC that brand was struck with a bunch of...
Posting this as a sibling comment to Akir's thread, but there's a very similar product called Quorn that's been in the UK market for decades. IIRC that brand was struck with a bunch of interference lawsuits from US companies wanting to protect their monopolies on meat alternatives (garden burger and etc.), which helped keep it out of the North American market.
Not sure how it's doing these days, but it seems like they're still in business.
I buy Quorn chicken imitation products in the US, they're only available in select grocery stores in my experience so hopefully it doesn't go fully away anytime soon. I like it the most out of all...
I buy Quorn chicken imitation products in the US, they're only available in select grocery stores in my experience so hopefully it doesn't go fully away anytime soon. I like it the most out of all the chicken imitation products I've tried, and often it is a bit better priced than the other brands.
Oh no, “mushroom burgers that identify what else you’ve been eating and send that data to [insert least favourite tech giant here] to sell to advertisers” is not on my cyberpunk bingo card!
Oh no, “mushroom burgers that identify what else you’ve been eating and send that data to [insert least favourite tech giant here] to sell to advertisers” is not on my cyberpunk bingo card!
From the article:
...
I find reading this a bit funny because most of the stuff that they talked about kind of already exist without needing to go to a lab. When they're talking about making fungi with long fibers, I think to myself, "We already have that; it's called mushroom". They sell them shaped and seasoned under a brand called Meati. To my knowledge they do not use any bioengineered mushrooms; they just use existing mushroom mycelium.
They talk about bacteria liquifying and sweetening rice, but that's already been done for centuries; it's called firmentation and it's been used to make things like Japanese amazake or Korean sikhye. One traditional method to make it does not require having Koji at hand; you simply chew a mouthful of cooked rice, spit it back into the pot, and leave it out.
Plant based heme is indeed a newer food innovation, but here's the kicker; it's really unclear if it actually improves the taste of plant based food. You can't buy leghemoglobin outside of Impossible "meat", and you can't buy Impossible "meat" without leghemoglobin. Because the process of making leghemoglobin uses bacteria that is legally protected you can't get it from any other source, and they are not interested in selling the ingredient to anyone when they can use it to increase the price of their product by more than an order of magnitude. That heme-modified koji patty was written as looking appetizing, not tasting appetizing.
This is not to dismiss the work that these scientists are doing, of course; there are many potential innovations to look forward to that could result from this kind of research. But to call it the future of food is to misunderstand why people are eating what they are eating. The food does not need to change; the people eating them needs to change. People choose their food based on a number of factors, but factor number one is culture. Factor number two is craving, but that's a bit harder to quantify because there are many confounding factors that are both psychological and physiological in nature. The problem with this framing is that in cases where there is availability of a wide variety of foods, all reasons to choose meat are man-made. Nature and society has given us food options and structures that make them available; we need merely choose them.
You are right, price is a factor! But It's trailing for last place for a large portion of the population. Meat is very expensive compared to plant sources, but it's still consumed in large quantities because of the other two factors I mentioned. In any case we are still very far off from making fungi into a direct replacement for meat, especially when we are so close to commercializing cultivated meat products.
Taste is also extremely subjective, so it really doesn't matter that researchers have vouched for it; the people you know have similar tastes to you have not, and they can not. Impossible tastes meaty largely because it's made mostly of protein, contains yeast extract, and has about 1/10th of it's weight in fat. There is less leghemoglobin in it then there is yeast extract, dextrose, or starches or thickeners. I am not saying that it doesn't have an effect, because I have no doubt that it will bring that rusty scent and flavor to the product, but the thing that is much harder to proove is that it's a flavor you actually want. That is the scent and flavor you get from raw beef, and cooking and seasoning tends to hide those flavors.
During my MBA program me and a group of students performed a conjoint analysis of factors that fast food customers looked for in a burger. Specifically, we were looking for public sentiment towards a meatless burger.
Many respondandts indicated that they valued health and sustainability just behind taste. But when we did the analysis, we found that that was lip service. Most people would not be willing to pay an dollar extra for a burger that was healthier and more sustainable. This was represented well across all demographics we surveyed.
So unfortunately, price dominates many folks eating decisions.
I am somewhat surprised that literally everyone relies on their instincts for a raw primal need like food, but I really shouldn't be.
Out of curiousity, may I ask what vegan food means to you? I've read that it's expensive a few times, but in my diet, switching only meant cutting out beef, chicken, eggs and milk products. Those were all by far the most expensive parts of it anyhow. If anything I'm eating a lot more variety than before (e.g. brassicas that I wouldn't've tried before, eggplants (they always looked weird, don't judge me XD), tempeh), so it seems like a net win for me.
But perhaps your cooking repertoire is a lot larger than mine, so you'd lose a lot of variety by comparison!
It can get pricey if you want more "direct" vegan replacements from the store. Vegan cheese is pricier, vegan chicken nuggets are pricier, vegan egg is pricier, etc. Overall, I spend less eating vegan as compared to an omnivore diet, but specialty products can add up quick.
I think the struggle people have with vegan food (when they aren't vegan or are new vegans) is that they want a vegan meal that mimics/replaces a meat/dairy meal when vegan cooking has a different mindset. This drive for mimicking/replacing will increase costs unless you learn how to make your own replacements which is time consuming.
Makes sense! And yeah, I can definitely relate to vegan cooking having a different mindset; there was definitely a learning curve.
I suspect that a lot of the plant/fungi based meats may still have uses as filler for cultured meat, especially for lower cost applications. I could see a cultured/fungi blend becoming common, in whatever ratio is optimal for price and taste.
Nutritional yeast is different from yeast extract; they have very different flavor profiles. There's a reason why I mentioned it in combination with the fat and protein, which are the greater parts of the flavor profile. They're also not the only parts; even if they were nobody tends to eat unseasoned ground beef so extra spices (salt especially) are vital.
The experience of flavor is actually multi-sensory, beyond just the sensation of taste. It involves, touch, smell, and sight, so manufacturers trying to make these products try to emulate all the aspects of meat. The largest function of leghemoglobin is that it replicates the myoglobin that meat has; it "bleeds", and that adds to the experience. But the thing about that experience is that it only really applies if you're actually cooking it. If you're getting in in a prepared meal you're missing the "show".
Do keep in mind that when people talk about things tasting like meat, they generally mean it as in that it's simelar enough to act as a replacement, not that it's a direct, 1-for-1 "buy the generic brand instead" replacement. Taste and smell are powerful senses and our mouths are very senstive to touch; we are very good at finding very fine differences. That's why I'm always skeptical about the effectiveness of artificial meat products. Cultured meat is likely to be a good enough replacement, but I've still got reservations.
I've lost track of when I started, but I've been eating a whole foods plant based diet for less than a year because of a cumulation of health problems. Before that I was eating a diet rich in meat and other animal products.
I haven't done the research to find particular evidence, but I suspect there are specific taste receptors for heme-containing proteins. You can boost umami in all kinds of ways that don't require animal products, but it's hard to satisfy cravings for iron.
Bioavailability of non-heme iron from natural plant materials isn't very good. Avoiding iron and other mineral deficiencies on a vegan or vegetarian regimen requires a highly varied diet and adequate combination with ascorbate (Vitamin C) containing foods.
While it’s true that plant based iron isn’t as usable as animal heme, that is when taken by itself. There are a number of things you can also eat that will increase that bioavailability. A varied diet is recommended regardless of if you are vegan or not.
I don’t think that you are correct about taste receptors but if you find out anything I would be interested.
The only paper I've been able to find which specifically addresses heme taste perception is hard paywalled. Even "metallic flavor" isn't as well understood as the other taste sensations.
Thanks for taking the time to find that! I was able to get a copy of it that, uh, fell off of a truck. I’m not in a place to read through it entirely right now, but it seems to be a review of existing research rather than a new study. Here is the conclusion:
It does go into a bit about a sensation they call dysgeusia, which might be another thing to look into if you haven’t heard of that term like I have.
Edit: this citation appears to be the best bet, though it’s not a scientific paper:
It's always been interesting to me that certain drugs and diseases cause perception of unpleasant foul, sour, bitter, or metallic tastes (dysgeusia), but we don't really have a good enough understanding of what sensory components cause that sensation. The second study on taste/sensation/flavor of metallic compounds also suggests that there's greater sensitivity to iron and its oxidation states than to other metals of dietary significance. It found evidence we can (somehow!) get distinct retronasal perceptions of the flavors of non-volatile iron compounds. So maybe there isn't a specific receptor for heme taste, but the "palatability" of different iron compounds distinguishes heme from non-heme iron.
Mucinex does that to me like crazy. It’s extremely unbearable.
BTW I put an edit with their primary citation about the flavor of heme. It’s just the impossible foods patent.
I can't tell you how glad I was to switch off methotrexate for the same reason. Thank you for the primary citation!
It's a press release from an academic research lab. They do tend to speculate about possible applications, but a company would have to commercialize it, and whether that happens is anyone's guess.
I suppose I could have linked to the paper.
Posting this as a sibling comment to Akir's thread, but there's a very similar product called Quorn that's been in the UK market for decades. IIRC that brand was struck with a bunch of interference lawsuits from US companies wanting to protect their monopolies on meat alternatives (garden burger and etc.), which helped keep it out of the North American market.
Not sure how it's doing these days, but it seems like they're still in business.
I buy Quorn chicken imitation products in the US, they're only available in select grocery stores in my experience so hopefully it doesn't go fully away anytime soon. I like it the most out of all the chicken imitation products I've tried, and often it is a bit better priced than the other brands.
I really don't think food is the thing you want to preface with "smart".
Oh no, “mushroom burgers that identify what else you’ve been eating and send that data to [insert least favourite tech giant here] to sell to advertisers” is not on my cyberpunk bingo card!