If you go to Berlin, you'll find more places selling döners than bratwursts. At least that was my experience, and it was over ten years ago. I find it interesting that it seems they're not trying...
If you go to Berlin, you'll find more places selling döners than bratwursts. At least that was my experience, and it was over ten years ago.
I find it interesting that it seems they're not trying to make it some kind of special geographic designation. Like, you can't call a sparkling wine Champagne unless it's from the Champagne district of France. But these guys aren't trying to say a döner kebab has to come from Turkey. Instead, they're trying to create a very rigid definition of what ingredients and methods are allowed to call something döner.
Kebabs in general, and döner in particular, have quickly risen as the preferred late-night snack across Europe. It's kind of a difficult issue when you have an ethnic food gain widespread popularity abroad through a diaspora community, but it certainly feels to me like this particular food has been so widely adopted it no longer belongs to Turks living in Turkey alone. My entirely unscientific impression is that most döner shops are still run by people with a Turkish background, but one, two or three generations removed from the country.
I tell my American friends that Turkish food is to Europeans what Mexican food is to Americans. It’s not to say that both cuisines are just cheap fast food: both have rich deep traditions. But...
I tell my American friends that Turkish food is to Europeans what Mexican food is to Americans.
It’s not to say that both cuisines are just cheap fast food: both have rich deep traditions. But generations of Turkish and Mexican immigrants have made livings and businesses cooking up cheap döner kebabs and lahmacun, and burritos and tacos to busy, hungry Europeans and Americans.
There are also inventions and variations based upon döners made that aren't Turkish in the slightest. The "Kapsalon" is perhaps made by someone of Turkish descent, but it's also only found in the...
There are also inventions and variations based upon döners made that aren't Turkish in the slightest. The "Kapsalon" is perhaps made by someone of Turkish descent, but it's also only found in the Netherlands.
Even the "mainstream" döner kebab served throughout Europe is quite different from how it's made in Turkey. Turkish immigrants in Germany can arguably claim to have invented the döner kebab as...
Even the "mainstream" döner kebab served throughout Europe is quite different from how it's made in Turkey. Turkish immigrants in Germany can arguably claim to have invented the döner kebab as it's consumed outside of Turkey, since it was significantly adapted for local tastes. I'm told actual Turkish döner kebab is also delicious, but it's very different from what you'd get here in Berlin.
This is actually not uncommon for how these food protections work. For example, Wiener Schnitzel doesn't have to literally come from Vienna, but it has to be made with veal. The (usually cheaper)...
I find it interesting that it seems they're not trying to make it some kind of special geographic designation. Like, you can't call a sparkling wine Champagne unless it's from the Champagne district of France. But these guys aren't trying to say a döner kebab has to come from Turkey. Instead, they're trying to create a very rigid definition of what ingredients and methods are allowed to call something döner.
This is actually not uncommon for how these food protections work. For example, Wiener Schnitzel doesn't have to literally come from Vienna, but it has to be made with veal. The (usually cheaper) versions with pork or chicken cannot be called Wiener Schnitzel, so they're Schnitzel Wiener Art ("Viennese-style Scnitzel").
Realistically, this sort of weird naming thing is what will probably happen if Turkey gets their way here.
Is there anything stopping people from ignoring the precedent and calling their foods what they want? For instance, let’s say I was to make a sparkling wine in Texas, and market it as Texas...
Is there anything stopping people from ignoring the precedent and calling their foods what they want?
For instance, let’s say I was to make a sparkling wine in Texas, and market it as Texas champagne or something along those lines. What, if any, repercussions might this open me up to? Besides the majority of French people probably despising me
To my understanding, for sale in the US and elsewhere globally, nothing. But if you'd try to export it into the EU it'd get impounded as false advertising or whatever due to not legally being...
To my understanding, for sale in the US and elsewhere globally, nothing.
But if you'd try to export it into the EU it'd get impounded as false advertising or whatever due to not legally being champagne.
That depends entirely on the various treaties those countries have signed with the EU. And a lot of countries actually do respect the EU's Protected Designation of Origin / Geographical Indication...
To my understanding, for sale in the US and elsewhere globally, nothing.
That depends entirely on the various treaties those countries have signed with the EU. And a lot of countries actually do respect the EU's Protected Designation of Origin / Geographical Indication statuses of certain foodstuffs. E.g. Sparkling wine can only call itself Champagne here in Canada if it's actually from the Champagne region of France due to the EU-Canada Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement.
Under CETA, Canada has agreed to protect 143 Geographical Indications (GIs) – distinctive food and drink products from specific towns or regions in the EU. They include things like Roquefort cheese, balsamic vinegar from Modena and Dutch Gouda cheese.
Canada will protect these traditional European products from imitations in much the same way as the EU does. So, for example, cheese sold in Canada as Gouda will have to come from Gouda.
Using champagne on a new wine from Texas would violate 26 U.S.C. 5388 I think... Or maybe not if it is "Texas Champagne." The internet suggests the former, the law reads like the latter. But idk...
Using champagne on a new wine from Texas would violate 26 U.S.C. 5388
I think... Or maybe not if it is "Texas Champagne." The internet suggests the former, the law reads like the latter. But idk how to read law well enough to be sure.
But either way that's where to start looking for consequences, with the IRS. Champagne doesn't have full protection in the US.
Thanks! I appreciate you sending that link. I am also not the best at parsing law verbiage, but the fact that specifics are encoded in the IRS laws like that does answer my question (I think) In...
Thanks! I appreciate you sending that link. I am also not the best at parsing law verbiage, but the fact that specifics are encoded in the IRS laws like that does answer my question (I think)
In hindsight it makes sense, given that a US citizen buying (non Texas-) Champagne would likely assume its origin to be of France
It all depends on the laws wherever you're selling it. The European Commission (who are the ones making this decision) obviously don't have jurisdiction over the US, so they only run into these...
It all depends on the laws wherever you're selling it. The European Commission (who are the ones making this decision) obviously don't have jurisdiction over the US, so they only run into these things if they export to the EU. But döner kebab isn't really a thing in the US anyway that I've seen -- at least nowhere I've lived. In Europe it's extremely popular as cheap fast food, and the rest of Europe pales in comparison to Germany in terms of its popularity (and, imo, quality). I live in a pretty quiet bit of Berlin, and I'm still within walking distance of 3 döner shops. It would be hugely burdensome for Germany if they were forced to regulate the term according to Turkish standards, both because of how popular they are here as well as the existence of pretty substantial differences between döner kebab as served in Turkey and how it's served in Germany (and most of the rest of Europe afaik).
Fwiw Gyros fill that space in a lot of ways. Most cities I've lived in have a number of gyro places. We have possibly had more Greek immigration than Turkish or at least the Midwest has. Our...
Fwiw Gyros fill that space in a lot of ways. Most cities I've lived in have a number of gyro places. We have possibly had more Greek immigration than Turkish or at least the Midwest has. Our "family restaurants" here that are locally owned are also likely to have Greek menu items specifically on top of the more broadly "Americanized" menu
Oh yeah I'm from the US myself and gyros definitely were the closest thing to the European döner kebab I had there. When I describe döner to family and friends they're my point of comparison --...
Oh yeah I'm from the US myself and gyros definitely were the closest thing to the European döner kebab I had there. When I describe döner to family and friends they're my point of comparison -- the ingredients are very similar, even if the sauces are different. That said, döner kebab is orders of magnitude more popular in Europe than gyros are in the US.
We do have donor kebabs, but usually it’s just one menu item from the many “Mediterranean” restaurants as opposed to being its own thing like in Europe. That being said, we do have our own fast...
We do have donor kebabs, but usually it’s just one menu item from the many “Mediterranean” restaurants as opposed to being its own thing like in Europe.
That being said, we do have our own fast food middle eastern thing - halal carts, which originated from Egyptian immigrants serving food from food carts.
Would it really be that burdensome for donor kebab shops in Germany? I’d assume they’d just stop calling it donor kebab? At this point I don’t think that’d be much of an impediment given its popularity.
I'm from the US and I've never been to a "Mediterranean" restaurant that serves döner kebab. The closest thing I had in the US would be a gyro, though schwarma's also kinda similar ig. I've also...
I'm from the US and I've never been to a "Mediterranean" restaurant that serves döner kebab. The closest thing I had in the US would be a gyro, though schwarma's also kinda similar ig. I've also never heard of a halal cart though, so it may be that you're from an area of the US with a larger population of the relevant ethnicities than where I'm from -- though I will caution that I'm not talking about someplace rural, my experiences are from living in proper metropolitan cities.
I don't actually think it'd be as big a burden for the döner shops themselves (though I doubt they'd appreciate the added scrutiny), but I think it would be a huge burden for the German regulatory authorities tasked with enforcing this.
I think the only area with a lot of actual halal carts is NYC + some parts of NJ, but I'm guessing you've heard of Halal Guys before, which is a chain derived from halal carts. That being said,...
I think the only area with a lot of actual halal carts is NYC + some parts of NJ, but I'm guessing you've heard of Halal Guys before, which is a chain derived from halal carts. That being said, yes, I've seen actual donor kebabs as a menu item in NYC, not just gyros.
I haven't ever heard of Halal Guys actually! Looking at their website, they don't have any locations in my former home state or in mainland Europe. I definitely believe you that NYC has döner...
I haven't ever heard of Halal Guys actually! Looking at their website, they don't have any locations in my former home state or in mainland Europe.
I definitely believe you that NYC has döner kebab some places though! But NYC generally has a wider variety of foods available than most cities in the US, so I'm not sure it's representative. I majored in Chinese in college and I sure wished we had the variety of Chinese food available in Flushing, for instance...
I've never had Dutch döner, so it's possible it's an exception, but so far in my European travels the general rule of "the worst döner in Germany is better than the best döner elsewhere" has held...
I've never had Dutch döner, so it's possible it's an exception, but so far in my European travels the general rule of "the worst döner in Germany is better than the best döner elsewhere" has held up. Legitimately the thing I'll miss most if/when my wife and I move to Norway.
I will definitely try Kapsalon next time I'm in the Netherlands, but last time we were there we experienced Extreme Schipol Trauma so it might be a while lol
Yeah, heaps of lamb or chicken donner in a pita bread with chips is a very common fatty and carby meal to soak up all that alcohol here in the UK after a late night out in a pub/bar/club. I went...
Yeah, heaps of lamb or chicken donner in a pita bread with chips is a very common fatty and carby meal to soak up all that alcohol here in the UK after a late night out in a pub/bar/club.
I went off it at 19 after throwing most of a kebab up after a particularly gruelling binge drinking session but a few of my friends will still get a donner after a night out, I tend to stick with chips, cheese and curry sauce or chicken pakora now myself.
If you go to Berlin, you'll find more places selling döners than bratwursts. At least that was my experience, and it was over ten years ago.
I find it interesting that it seems they're not trying to make it some kind of special geographic designation. Like, you can't call a sparkling wine Champagne unless it's from the Champagne district of France. But these guys aren't trying to say a döner kebab has to come from Turkey. Instead, they're trying to create a very rigid definition of what ingredients and methods are allowed to call something döner.
Kebabs in general, and döner in particular, have quickly risen as the preferred late-night snack across Europe. It's kind of a difficult issue when you have an ethnic food gain widespread popularity abroad through a diaspora community, but it certainly feels to me like this particular food has been so widely adopted it no longer belongs to Turks living in Turkey alone. My entirely unscientific impression is that most döner shops are still run by people with a Turkish background, but one, two or three generations removed from the country.
I tell my American friends that Turkish food is to Europeans what Mexican food is to Americans.
It’s not to say that both cuisines are just cheap fast food: both have rich deep traditions. But generations of Turkish and Mexican immigrants have made livings and businesses cooking up cheap döner kebabs and lahmacun, and burritos and tacos to busy, hungry Europeans and Americans.
There are also inventions and variations based upon döners made that aren't Turkish in the slightest. The "Kapsalon" is perhaps made by someone of Turkish descent, but it's also only found in the Netherlands.
Even the "mainstream" döner kebab served throughout Europe is quite different from how it's made in Turkey. Turkish immigrants in Germany can arguably claim to have invented the döner kebab as it's consumed outside of Turkey, since it was significantly adapted for local tastes. I'm told actual Turkish döner kebab is also delicious, but it's very different from what you'd get here in Berlin.
This is actually not uncommon for how these food protections work. For example, Wiener Schnitzel doesn't have to literally come from Vienna, but it has to be made with veal. The (usually cheaper) versions with pork or chicken cannot be called Wiener Schnitzel, so they're Schnitzel Wiener Art ("Viennese-style Scnitzel").
Realistically, this sort of weird naming thing is what will probably happen if Turkey gets their way here.
Is there anything stopping people from ignoring the precedent and calling their foods what they want?
For instance, let’s say I was to make a sparkling wine in Texas, and market it as Texas champagne or something along those lines. What, if any, repercussions might this open me up to? Besides the majority of French people probably despising me
To my understanding, for sale in the US and elsewhere globally, nothing.
But if you'd try to export it into the EU it'd get impounded as false advertising or whatever due to not legally being champagne.
That depends entirely on the various treaties those countries have signed with the EU. And a lot of countries actually do respect the EU's Protected Designation of Origin / Geographical Indication statuses of certain foodstuffs. E.g. Sparkling wine can only call itself Champagne here in Canada if it's actually from the Champagne region of France due to the EU-Canada Comprehensive Economic and Trade Agreement.
cc: @SirNut
Yeah that's fair, I essentially skipped over any further trade treaties as being derived from EU regulations themselves.
Using champagne on a new wine from Texas would violate 26 U.S.C. 5388
I think... Or maybe not if it is "Texas Champagne." The internet suggests the former, the law reads like the latter. But idk how to read law well enough to be sure.
But either way that's where to start looking for consequences, with the IRS. Champagne doesn't have full protection in the US.
Thanks! I appreciate you sending that link. I am also not the best at parsing law verbiage, but the fact that specifics are encoded in the IRS laws like that does answer my question (I think)
In hindsight it makes sense, given that a US citizen buying (non Texas-) Champagne would likely assume its origin to be of France
It all depends on the laws wherever you're selling it. The European Commission (who are the ones making this decision) obviously don't have jurisdiction over the US, so they only run into these things if they export to the EU. But döner kebab isn't really a thing in the US anyway that I've seen -- at least nowhere I've lived. In Europe it's extremely popular as cheap fast food, and the rest of Europe pales in comparison to Germany in terms of its popularity (and, imo, quality). I live in a pretty quiet bit of Berlin, and I'm still within walking distance of 3 döner shops. It would be hugely burdensome for Germany if they were forced to regulate the term according to Turkish standards, both because of how popular they are here as well as the existence of pretty substantial differences between döner kebab as served in Turkey and how it's served in Germany (and most of the rest of Europe afaik).
Fwiw Gyros fill that space in a lot of ways. Most cities I've lived in have a number of gyro places. We have possibly had more Greek immigration than Turkish or at least the Midwest has. Our "family restaurants" here that are locally owned are also likely to have Greek menu items specifically on top of the more broadly "Americanized" menu
Oh yeah I'm from the US myself and gyros definitely were the closest thing to the European döner kebab I had there. When I describe döner to family and friends they're my point of comparison -- the ingredients are very similar, even if the sauces are different. That said, döner kebab is orders of magnitude more popular in Europe than gyros are in the US.
That's fair, and we have a lot of other competition for take out, late night food, etc. But I thought it was worth mentioning!
We do have donor kebabs, but usually it’s just one menu item from the many “Mediterranean” restaurants as opposed to being its own thing like in Europe.
That being said, we do have our own fast food middle eastern thing - halal carts, which originated from Egyptian immigrants serving food from food carts.
Would it really be that burdensome for donor kebab shops in Germany? I’d assume they’d just stop calling it donor kebab? At this point I don’t think that’d be much of an impediment given its popularity.
I'm from the US and I've never been to a "Mediterranean" restaurant that serves döner kebab. The closest thing I had in the US would be a gyro, though schwarma's also kinda similar ig. I've also never heard of a halal cart though, so it may be that you're from an area of the US with a larger population of the relevant ethnicities than where I'm from -- though I will caution that I'm not talking about someplace rural, my experiences are from living in proper metropolitan cities.
I don't actually think it'd be as big a burden for the döner shops themselves (though I doubt they'd appreciate the added scrutiny), but I think it would be a huge burden for the German regulatory authorities tasked with enforcing this.
I think the only area with a lot of actual halal carts is NYC + some parts of NJ, but I'm guessing you've heard of Halal Guys before, which is a chain derived from halal carts. That being said, yes, I've seen actual donor kebabs as a menu item in NYC, not just gyros.
I haven't ever heard of Halal Guys actually! Looking at their website, they don't have any locations in my former home state or in mainland Europe.
I definitely believe you that NYC has döner kebab some places though! But NYC generally has a wider variety of foods available than most cities in the US, so I'm not sure it's representative. I majored in Chinese in college and I sure wished we had the variety of Chinese food available in Flushing, for instance...
Boston also has döner kebab shops, maybe they’ve just not made their way westward yet.
Oi! Dutch Turks have made some stellar döner. And even made the Kapsalon!
I've never had Dutch döner, so it's possible it's an exception, but so far in my European travels the general rule of "the worst döner in Germany is better than the best döner elsewhere" has held up. Legitimately the thing I'll miss most if/when my wife and I move to Norway.
I will definitely try Kapsalon next time I'm in the Netherlands, but last time we were there we experienced Extreme Schipol Trauma so it might be a while lol
Yeah, heaps of lamb or chicken donner in a pita bread with chips is a very common fatty and carby meal to soak up all that alcohol here in the UK after a late night out in a pub/bar/club.
I went off it at 19 after throwing most of a kebab up after a particularly gruelling binge drinking session but a few of my friends will still get a donner after a night out, I tend to stick with chips, cheese and curry sauce or chicken pakora now myself.
I'm just waiting for Lebanon to say the same thing about Shawarma in Canada.